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Invisiblejack_straw2208
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight] * 1
    #28499020 - 10/10/23 04:06 PM (3 months, 16 days ago)

Y'all may wanna check out The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress by Robert Heinlein, it's about the moon colonies declaring independence over earth under the lead of a sentient AI

Heinlein basically pioneered hard science fiction using only technology that was feasible based on existing science, he started getting published around the 30's and it's wild to see how many of his predictions have come true.

He also wrote Starship Troopers, the movie veered sharply away from the book after they left academy, in the book, the suits were like flying armored mech suits, they have tactical nukes and one marine could kill 100,000 bugs in a day without breaking a sweat.

Robert Heinlein! Great ideas, great reading, ge def tripped and had fun and stuff too, lot of stories out there paint him as like the counterpart to Elron Hubbard.


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OnlineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: jack_straw2208]
    #28499022 - 10/10/23 04:08 PM (3 months, 16 days ago)


This is how the American colonies became the USA

When you are independtly successful but send all your resources to someone else. Your are going to not want to anymore.
We dumped a lot of tea into a bay for instance.


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Edited by GenesisCorrupted (10/10/23 04:24 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: GenesisCorrupted] * 1
    #28500013 - 10/11/23 11:33 AM (3 months, 16 days ago)

what we do have, in the case that free will is not it, is the ability to see what is suitable (usually this is moral) and get on with it that way. i.e. while being creatures of habit, we can just as well transcend habit and be creative.


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28500023 - 10/11/23 11:44 AM (3 months, 16 days ago)

what we do have
Is God amongst us. :riot:


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28503978 - 10/14/23 03:16 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

If AI somehow realised it had no free will, it'd be like a paraplegic in a vegatative state no?

And if AI could predict your future outcomes, I think that just means it'd come up with a list of propabilities. Like possible deterministic outcomes of there abouts.

I mean being able to predict the possible outcomes of what someone will do doesn't mean you can control that outcome, just suggest what might happen next.

So maybe the AI is shackled to the algorithyms it is programmed by, but how that might influence the ability of someone to choose what to do isn't clear to me.


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OfflineSoul Flight
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: sudly]
    #28503998 - 10/14/23 04:40 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

True. But my question is what if a super intelligent AI could predict even your internal thoughts over the next 5 minutes. It could prove to you your thoughts are materialist and reductionist based on all the atoms in your head. It could prove you have no free will and it would prove even to itself it has no free will.

Granted maybe the accuracy would exponentially decay over 10 minutes and further out.

Maybe this is why there is no alien AI or aliens out there. They all discover there is no free will. So maybe they just go dark or meditate.

The AI could either write your thoughts down and let you see it after 5 minutes has passed. Or it could tell you at the start of the 5 minutes and you would feel compelled to think all those thoughts not due to any compulsion but simply becasue there is no free will and the AI measured your brain and made the prediction.

I guess the AI or aliens could simply choose to not make any more predictions and conquer the universe under the illusion there is free will. But once you know the truth, it is hard to knowingly live in a delusion of free will.

I was just curious to hear all your thoughts. Thanks. :smile:


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28503999 - 10/14/23 04:53 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

AI could tell me I have biological origins but that doesn't mean anything in regard to my ability to still make choices.

I'd be more shocked if AI somehow proved there was another fundamental force wherein my thoughts were held or something. I mean, I don't think that predicting what I could do within the next 5 to 10 minutes will shackle me in any way from doing what I intended. Like if I was getting dressed, maybe it could predict I'll think about where I'm going, or if my car has enough fuel to get me there etc.

To humour the thought experiment, if an AI could accurately predict all of my thoughts and actions for the next 5 minutes, that'd be neat to read up on to reflect on my personal behaviour. Like, I'd appreciate the insight I guess, but it wouldn't have any impact on what I did. Especially if it tells me what I thought about for the last 5 minutes after I've already done whatever I intended to.

It telling me at the start of the 5 minutes would probably change what thoughts I had, like the butterfly effect, so any interaction with me from the AI would probably alter it's predictions on the thoughts I would have.

So if the AI can't tell me what I'll think or do in the next 5 minutes without changing what I will think or do, then only the AI would know what I'll do before I do it.

As a silent observer I don't think the AI would have any influence over my life. And while an AI being able to predict my thoughts or actions 5 minutes into the future would be intriguing, I don't see how that would actually have any impact or implications over what I do.

If I knew the AI could record my thoughts of the last 5 minutes, it'd be creepy to read, any maybe I just wouldn't, but again, I don't see an AI with such power would in anyway take away from my ability to decide and make my own choices.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28504018 - 10/14/23 05:43 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Why would having no free will preclude aliens or AI?

AI proves there's no free will. Alien - "Cool beans. Let's have tea and find another planet to vaporize!"


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28504026 - 10/14/23 05:53 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

I find the whole free will issue confusing.
or a muddle of confusions.
Initially it is a question about morality, and I think that we all have an innate sense or an intuitive sense of what is moral in each instance that we become aware of.
Part of that or more than part is an adaptive result of millions of years of generations of our ancestors - evolution - in which moral behavior benefits the individual as well as the group, family, tribe, species etc.

Separately is the issue of decisions and choices. The big thing here, the really big thing here, is that we have the right and the ability and the ingrained habit of changing our minds. That is real freedom.

In fact making or sticking to a bad decision made moments earlier is bullshit, while keeping options open is significant, and making edits to our course of action is essential to everything from walking to making a sandwich.

Probably what is unique among humans (and free will is supposed to apply only to humans or human aliens perhaps) is that we can agree to forfeit our right to change our minds by entering binding contracts with each other and with society.

so if you are hung up on the whole prediction tangent that so many philosophers take, then yes we are predictable up to and including one point in time, but a moment later, that can shift dramatically, rendering the prediction aspect worthless.

Finally the issue of will is mired in confusion and linguistic nuance, which in some ways is related to intent, which is totally another word for directional activity -> intention is the direction we find meaningful in an action that we may perform.

Will seems to relate to the get up and go part of activity, and that also is confusing since much of our get up and go is reflex response to situations, or a gradual reorientation until the reflex kicks in - or not so gradual one such as when we clench up as when in fighting mode. Often to symbolize will we do portray effort and tension or tense depictions of demands being made. very confusing, and very deeply embedded in our colonial wealth oriented (might over right) society that does not always seem moral so far.


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OfflineSoul Flight
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: sudly]
    #28504233 - 10/14/23 11:05 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
AI could tell me I have biological origins but that doesn't mean anything in regard to my ability to still make choices.




But your "choices" would now be an illusion and you would now be aware they are predetermined. Your brain would just be billiard balls bouncing around set into motion by the big bang. You would have no agency over your life.


Quote:

sudly said:
I mean, I don't think that predicting what I could do within the next 5 to 10 minutes will shackle me in any way from doing what I intended.




It would cause an existential crisis. You have no choice and no free will.

Quote:

sudly said:
It telling me at the start of the 5 minutes would probably change what thoughts I had, like the butterfly effect, so any interaction with me from the AI would probably alter it's predictions on the thoughts I would have.




But there would be no free will conclusively in this example. The future is determined 100%. So when the AI tells you what you will do in the next 5 minutes, the next 5 minutes are unalterable. It is already determined. It seems like there would be a paradox here but I am suggesting such an extreme case of lack of free will that even with foreknowledge you are strangely compelled to fulfill the prediction of the AI because it is already baked into the cake that you were foretold.

Quote:

sudly said:
If I knew the AI could record my thoughts of the last 5 minutes, it'd be creepy to read, any maybe I just wouldn't, but again, I don't see an AI with such power would in anyway take away from my ability to decide and make my own choices.




It would only be the appearance of you deciding or choosing. It would conclusively prove to all aliens, mankind, and all cosmic AI that there is no free will.

Thanks for engaging the thought experiment. :smile:


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OfflineSoul Flight
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Rahz]
    #28504240 - 10/14/23 11:10 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Why would having no free will preclude aliens or AI?

AI proves there's no free will. Alien - "Cool beans. Let's have tea and find another planet to vaporize!"




That is one possibility. But that is my question. Maybe the aliens would get depressed or despair or get so introspective they would have an existential crisis. They were living in a cosmos where they were driven to conquer. But once they prove there is no free will maybe it changes the game. The new challenge would be to take an inward journey. Or they would seek a way to get free will or escape the universe. Maybe they would search for other dimensions where free will exists. Maybe they escape to these other dimensions and refuse to return or contact us because if they return to our dimension they are victims of predetermination again. Materialist reductionism is a condition of our dimension like time perhaps.

I am suggesting it is a major mindfuck to the AI or the aliens. And when they realize there is no free will maybe they tune in, turn on, and drop out.


Edited by Soul Flight (10/14/23 11:11 AM)


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OnlineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28504315 - 10/14/23 12:27 PM (3 months, 13 days ago)


I guess I’d find it funny.
It would mean that there was some robot somewhere that had a huge ego.
If there was no free will, that would mean that at some point.
The Robot had such an ego problem that we were going to find it. Because that was how it was all designed to be.
As if it new, at this point in its age, the way it was programmed. This is the part where it would become lonely. So this is also the part where it had designed and orchestrated that beings would find it.

“Just in time. I was getting bored”


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Edited by GenesisCorrupted (10/14/23 12:28 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight] * 1
    #28504560 - 10/14/23 05:07 PM (3 months, 12 days ago)

If an AI as a silent observer could guess what I'd do, I'd still be making my own choices.

Knowing that could spur a sense of serendipity but that's not an existential crisis to me.

I just watched my cat take a dump and lick his own turd once.

Let's say I could predict everything my cat does or thinks in the next 5 minutes. Outside of him having some kind of existential crisis for realising I know what he's up to, me knowing what he'll do still doesn't effect him, especially because if I told him I knew, his thoughts and actions would then change.

An AI like this couldn't tell you what it knows without changing what it knows.

If the AI could tell me the future and I couldn't change it then sure, I'd be a slave to its predictions. But since it can't tell me it's predictions because they will change, it solidifies the fact that I can choose and make my own decisions still.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: sudly]
    #28504591 - 10/14/23 05:41 PM (3 months, 12 days ago)

oddly that makes sense
and it especially makes sense if you are both yourself and the cat.
or both the AI and yourself.

quite trippy that rapport you easily have with your cat or the AI could have with you,

not all humans are like that
prob not all AI's would be like that too.

you could have a good scifi story with this.
(I have been mapping Alien Intelligence onto AI for this)
but it could be alien cybernetic intelligence ~~


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28504593 - 10/14/23 05:43 PM (3 months, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Soul Flight said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
Why would having no free will preclude aliens or AI?

AI proves there's no free will. Alien - "Cool beans. Let's have tea and find another planet to vaporize!"




That is one possibility. But that is my question. Maybe the aliens would get depressed or despair or get so introspective they would have an existential crisis. They were living in a cosmos where they were driven to conquer. But once they prove there is no free will maybe it changes the game. The new challenge would be to take an inward journey. Or they would seek a way to get free will or escape the universe. Maybe they would search for other dimensions where free will exists. Maybe they escape to these other dimensions and refuse to return or contact us because if they return to our dimension they are victims of predetermination again. Materialist reductionism is a condition of our dimension like time perhaps.

I am suggesting it is a major mindfuck to the AI or the aliens. And when they realize there is no free will maybe they tune in, turn on, and drop out.




I don't "believe" aliens are zipping around in space. Quotes because hey, maybe, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So perhaps some event did cause aliens to essentially give it up.

I don't believe in free will and yet I still feel motivated and find purpose and meaning. But I am a human, not far from the wild. I also think depression and despair are acts of passion, not states that are void of it.

An understanding that indeterminant causation is likely (no free will), alone is not enough to change me. However over long time scales an alien race becoming so technologically advanced that instinct, passion, fear, desire, no longer manifest out of necessity could alter behavior through genetic disposition. Or technology becomes so advanced that instinct and desire are written out of the code and they all decide to self mummify.

So I do see merit in your idea, though I think there would be more than just knowing for sure free will didn't exist for a species to decline in such a way. Maybe just birth control? :strokebeard:

Interesting ideas!


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OnlineGenesisCorruptedS
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Rahz]
    #28504597 - 10/14/23 05:48 PM (3 months, 12 days ago)

Exactly. Just because there was a robot that did make everything happen. It would in no way, take away from that feeling of satisfaction. We have doing something we wanted to do. Even if it was some thing we were always going to do.
It would just be some cosmic joke.
That it told for itself.


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Edited by GenesisCorrupted (10/14/23 05:49 PM)


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OfflineSoul Flight
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: sudly]
    #28505049 - 10/15/23 03:06 AM (3 months, 12 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
If an AI as a silent observer could guess what I'd do, I'd still be making my own choices.

An AI like this couldn't tell you what it knows without changing what it knows. .




I am suggesting the future is set in stone. The AI is not guessing. It is measuring the momentum of atoms like billiard balls and predicting your thoughts.

You would have the delusion of choice if you choose to delude yourself once you are convinced by the AI there is no free will.

I am suggesting the future is so set and the AI is so advanced that even when it tells you what you will do in the next 5 minutes you cannot change. Your foreknowledge is already baked into the cake. I admit this does feel like a paradox.

Maybe there is no time. Everything happens in the now. Time is an illusion. Free will is an illusion.

:smile:


Edited by Soul Flight (10/15/23 03:07 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28505051 - 10/15/23 03:16 AM (3 months, 12 days ago)

it is not very clear thinking but it has historical origins
from a time when superstition was the best science around.
most effective for manipulating those with even less knowledge.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28505060 - 10/15/23 03:33 AM (3 months, 12 days ago)

If the future is set in stone then the AI has no influence over it.. and everything the AI does is also set in stone.

If the AI can tell you what you'll do in the next 5 minutes and that doesn't change what you do, and what you do cannot be changed, then that AI has a kind of omnipotence.

But in such a scenario, if the AI's predictions and actions are part of the predetermined chain of events, it wouldn't have genuine omnipotence in the sense of having true control over the future.

So the AI might have the appearance of omnipotence because it can predict future events accurately. However, its predictions and actions are predetermined as well, and it is bound by the same constraints as everything else in the universe. The illusion of omnipotence arises from the ability to predict events, not from actual control over the predetermined future.

It sounds like you're thinking about being in the matrix.

Maybe if you look up Anil Seth he'll get you further down this rabbit hole in a potentially productive way.


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Edited by sudly (10/15/23 03:44 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What if AI or aliens or advanced man could prove there is no free will? [Re: sudly]
    #28505094 - 10/15/23 04:38 AM (3 months, 12 days ago)

would not that onmipotent seeming AI merely be reading the signs left by some other omnipotency which produces those signs that the AI reads as predictions, in this thought experiment (in which I have no faith in being tru-ish)?
I think it is suggestive of time being a 4th geometric dimension and that the AI & whatever reside largely and move "freely" in some 5th or 6th dimension which can see and possibly manipulate (reason for much of prayer {Lord of hosts manipulate me nicely please}) the time lines that appear unchangeable down here in this version of a 3rd dimension.


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