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OfflineSeriously_trippin
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Kryptos]
    #28540325 - 11/12/23 01:26 PM (2 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
Retribution is wrong, holding terrorists accountable and rescuing hostages is proportionate response.




Retribution, noun, "punishment inflicted on someone as vengeance for a wrong or criminal act."

"Holding someone accountable for their actions" is a euphemism that means "punishing someone as vengeance for a wrong or criminal act".

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
I think they should see a jury.




You know what the purpose of a corporation is? It dilutes responsibility. It's not "I did a bad thing", its "I did the right thing for the corporation, and I broke a few eggs in the process" Woopsies, my intentions were good.

You know what the purpose of a jury is? It dilutes responsibility. Instead of a single judge deciding on what form the retribution will take, they then ask a dozen people to agree with it. That way, it's no one person that decides what the retribution will look like, and no one person can be blamed for that retribution.

You know what the purpose of having an unloaded rifle in an execution by firing squad is? It's so that every person in that firing squad carrying out the execution can just think that they didn't do it. They must have been holding the blank.

That is why you had such a viscerally negative response to my suggestion that Hamas should just be ignored until they go away:

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
You're quite litterally saying isreal is bad so hammas gets to get off completely Scott free after slaughtering over 1,000 civilians and all the hostages they took are just theirs to do whatever they want to with them and hammas should never be held accountable except for the sake of argument so you can sound like you don't support a terrorist organization.




My belief that "holding Hamas accountable" is a counterproductive example of retributive justice that will ensure the cycle repeats calls into question the righteousness of your own beliefs. Not only that, but it openly questions the assumptions underlying those beliefs.

Here is another type of jury: A couple dudes get together and decide "we're gonna beat the fuck out of this dude. We all agree? Yes? Okay. I'm a good person, you're a good person, we're all good people, and we all agree we should beat the fuck out of this guy. This is a good action. We are all good people. Even though we're doing an objectively bad thing, we are still the good guys."

One person that disagrees with that sentiment immediately calls into question the initial assumption that they are all good people. This is why you end up with slogans like "if you're not with us you're against us". This is why people that refuse to seek "retributive justice" are generally not welcome in those situations. That's why they become "Hamas apologists", not because they defend Hamas, but because they refuse to seek punishment.



I get it there's no scenario which you support anyone going through a justice system. Even getting tried by a jury to you is unjust. The only thing you see as just is letting the offender go and not doing anything. You're drunk driving and run into a parade of 40 people kill children,pregnant women doesn't matter a jury is just a way to dilute responsibility Mann. So just let that person go.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #28540332 - 11/12/23 01:29 PM (2 months, 14 days ago)

So you see, when you punish an individual by putting them in jail, that is the equivalent of "no survivors". For Israel to do that on a nation-state level, they need to imprison every single man, woman, and child in Palestine.

This is why the analogy of an individual committing crimes does not translate very well to a group committing crimes. It is very easy to punish a whole individual. It is very hard to punish a whole group.

Going in to kill Hamas would be the equivalent of locking up that drunk driver's right hand, and leaving the rest of the person to go free. With a cage on their hand.


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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Kryptos]
    #28540386 - 11/12/23 01:56 PM (2 months, 14 days ago)



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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake] * 2
    #28540404 - 11/12/23 02:09 PM (2 months, 14 days ago)

Forcible transfer of children is a hallmark of genocide.

Checks out. Not much point trying to brainwash adults, they usually have a previous frame of reference that is harder to overcome.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Kryptos]
    #28540426 - 11/12/23 02:17 PM (2 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Forcible transfer of children is a hallmark of genocide.

Checks out. Not much point trying to brainwash adults, they usually have a previous frame of reference that is harder to overcome.




Damn...

Great post.


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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Kryptos]
    #28540525 - 11/12/23 03:25 PM (2 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Forcible transfer of children is a hallmark of genocide.

Checks out. Not much point trying to brainwash adults, they usually have a previous frame of reference that is harder to overcome.





Better than letting them die, no?


--------------------
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OfflineSeriously_trippin
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Kryptos]
    #28540531 - 11/12/23 03:29 PM (2 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Forcible transfer of children is a hallmark of genocide.

Checks out. Not much point trying to brainwash adults, they usually have a previous frame of reference that is harder to overcome.



Yeah when I heard the news I thought something along those lines too. God forbid you try and find their families or what family they have left and reunite them. Obviously it's not better then letting those babies die but it's not a binary choice of one or the other.

And again, I got a :pm: today calling me an evil piece of shit for supporting the zionist genocide and thats not what I've been doing. What I've been doing is essentially saying I do believe isreal has a right to rescue hostages and eliminate the terrorists that were part of the terror attack but what isreal is doing currently is revenge on innocents with collective punishment which I think is also heinous but it doesn't change my opinion that something should be done just in a different way then it is currently


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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #28540535 - 11/12/23 03:33 PM (2 months, 14 days ago)

Who PMed you?


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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #28540537 - 11/12/23 03:36 PM (2 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Forcible transfer of children is a hallmark of genocide.

Checks out. Not much point trying to brainwash adults, they usually have a previous frame of reference that is harder to overcome.



Yeah when I heard the news I thought something along those lines too. God forbid you try and find their families or what family they have left and reunite them. Obviously it's not better then letting those babies die but it's not a binary choice of one or the other.

And again, I got a :pm: today calling me an evil piece of shit for supporting the zionist genocide and thats not what I've been doing. What I've been doing is essentially saying I do believe isreal has a right to rescue hostages and eliminate the terrorists that were part of the terror attack but what isreal is doing currently is revenge on innocents with collective punishment which I think is also heinous but it doesn't change my opinion that something should be done just in a different way then it is currently





Yea, it would be tough to reunite the baby with family, but better than just killing them.
Israel definitely has a right to defend itself from the October 7 attack.  And yea they need to get those hostages back.  As long as Hamas keeps the hostages then Israel has the green light to continue what it's doing.


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OfflineSeriously_trippin
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake]
    #28540555 - 11/12/23 03:49 PM (2 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Who PMed you?



It looks like a brand new account (or seldom used) and looks like it wasn't anyone I've actually had an argument with. I don't want to put his name out there because I've been in that position where I've been so upset with someone's position that I've said that they supported something they didn't because I was angry.

So I calmly explained my position again. Reiterating that I think what isreal is currently doing is retaliatory slaughter of innocents which is heinous but I still belive in rescuing hostages and taking out the hammas members that personally launched the attack in a way that doesn't kill thousands of innocent civilians.

I get it it's a very emotional topic because of the sheer amount of human suffering but that's one of my points in this thread is I'm considering the pro palestian argument and truly thinking about where I stand on it instead of just calling them pro hammas because most aren't and it doesn't serve a purpose in an argument to label someone like that to "win" an argument

However the converse is true as well that just because I belive that there is a way isreal can do this right doesn't mean I support the mass slaughter of Palestinians in the way that isreal is currently doing. So I should be labeled some evil zionist because I think isreal has even a little bit of a right to respond to this terror attack.

I just think it's such an emotional subject that it's easy to dismiss me out of hand.


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OfflineSeriously_trippin
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #28540557 - 11/12/23 03:53 PM (2 months, 14 days ago)

Mod Edit:  Posting the content of PMs is strictly forbidden.


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Edited by Enlil (11/12/23 04:48 PM)


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake] * 3
    #28540579 - 11/12/23 04:15 PM (2 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Forcible transfer of children is a hallmark of genocide.

Checks out. Not much point trying to brainwash adults, they usually have a previous frame of reference that is harder to overcome.





Better than letting them die, no?




“Letting them die”

You mean killing them?

If I burned down your house I shouldn’t get credit for stealing your child amidst the flames.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #28540584 - 11/12/23 04:18 PM (2 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
I will however post the title of the pm I got and the message itself just to give yall an idea.

[edited to remove potential rulebreaking post]

And again I don't want to post the name of this guy because I don't think it serves a meaningful purpose. He's just trying to day what he thinks is right. But it was disheartening.




Careful mate. It is against the rules to post PMs publicly. I ran into this myself a while back. Not sure where that rule is written, but it is written somewhere, according to the mods.


Edited by Kryptos (11/12/23 04:39 PM)


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OfflineSeriously_trippin
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #28540595 - 11/12/23 04:24 PM (2 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
I will however post the title of the pm I got and the message itself just to give yall an idea.
Title:
Stop your incessant humanshit about the evil Hamas


Message:
the murdring israel state is a fucking terrorist organization but you dont rant a fucking bit over their hugely disproportionate crimes. What tis your bias racial, religous, colonizer or all 3? Your ignorance is likely purposeful or fucking despicable like the 10 idiots including the moderators on this subforum.

Tell us the body count of Israeli murder that goes on with impunity or just fuck off.


And again I don't want to post the name of this guy because I don't think it serves a meaningful purpose. He's just trying to day what he thinks is right. But it was disheartening.




Careful mate. It is against the rules to post PMs publicly. I ran into this myself a while back. Not sure where that rule is written, but it is written somewhere, according to the mods.



Good to know, I had no clue. Thank you. But thats why I refused to name which user sent that to me because I don't think it's appropriate.

I just thought it's important to the conversation. You and I had a heated argument but I didn't call you pro hammas and you didn't call me an evil zionist piece of shit and I'd just like people in this thread to remember that having an opinion doesn't make you evil and it doesn't mean you support the heinous things being done.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #28540607 - 11/12/23 04:30 PM (2 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Forcible transfer of children is a hallmark of genocide.

Checks out. Not much point trying to brainwash adults, they usually have a previous frame of reference that is harder to overcome.





Better than letting them die, no?




“Letting them die”

You mean killing them?

If I burned down your house I shouldn’t get credit for stealing your child amidst the flames.




Exactly.

People need to understand that this isn't about saving babies. The only reason they want to remove the babies is to make it appear more palatable to murder all of the parents... So they aren't doing those babies any service. They are trying to manage PR while running a genocidal operation.

Kryptos hit the nail on the head with his link.


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Edited by Bigbadwooof (11/12/23 04:31 PM)


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Onlinelifeiswhatyoumake
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #28540621 - 11/12/23 04:40 PM (2 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

lifeiswhatyoumake said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Forcible transfer of children is a hallmark of genocide.

Checks out. Not much point trying to brainwash adults, they usually have a previous frame of reference that is harder to overcome.





Better than letting them die, no?




“Letting them die”

You mean killing them?





Obviously, that's what I mean.


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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake]
    #28540645 - 11/12/23 04:54 PM (2 months, 14 days ago)

Hezbollah fired an anti-tank missile at electrical workers yesterday in northern Israel.
Critically wounding one and injuring several others.

Israel says war in the north is inevitable now.

https://www.voanews.com/a/missile-fire-from-lebanon-wounds-utility-work-crew-in-northern-israel-as-front-heats-up-/7351700.html


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake]
    #28540650 - 11/12/23 04:58 PM (2 months, 14 days ago)

It's a really bad time for Israel to be having a PR nightmare in the West, which I think they do have, thanks to independent media.

Israel can't fight a war on two fronts without America stepping in.


--------------------
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Onlinelifeiswhatyoumake
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #28540666 - 11/12/23 05:07 PM (2 months, 14 days ago)

I don't feel strongly one way or another about how Israel's PR looks in the West so far.
I do think Israel can fight Hezbollah and Hamas at once. 

Israel's military budget is WAY higher than Hezbollah and Hamas combined.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: lifeiswhatyoumake]
    #28540701 - 11/12/23 05:35 PM (2 months, 14 days ago)

Opening a second front, historically a great move.


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