|
Stable Genius
Radicalised


Registered: 09/26/18
Posts: 6,234
Loc: Wide Bay Orstralia
Last seen: 8 days, 19 hours
|
Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Metoo]
#28498386 - 10/10/23 01:28 AM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Metoo said: Hamas did not co-ordinate with Hezbollah in a sense that there was no HB attack timed to coincide - this is a matter of record. The Hamas attack was probably created by Iran so no surprise their man was at hand to help run the op.
Yeah... from Lebanon, so they would've known about it. I'm not saying they were part of the attack force, even though they did send a few rockets over the border on Sunday, in response to Israel sending a few over, which I'm sure you're aware of.
|
Stable Genius
Radicalised


Registered: 09/26/18
Posts: 6,234
Loc: Wide Bay Orstralia
Last seen: 8 days, 19 hours
|
Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: sudly]
#28498393 - 10/10/23 02:01 AM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
sudly said: So my question is, does anyone here think that war with Iran will be a productive enterprise?
My lame brain opinion, if Iran enters the war it WILL quickly escalate to U.S. involvement, and we know how those roosters operate 
I doubt Israel will nuke anyone,.. unless they're losing.
Russia and Iran are allies.
Russia and Syria are allies. Israel shoots rockets into Syria daily. The U.S. still has troops in Syria helping steal protect Syria's oil.
This has more potential for ww3 than the Ukraine SMO.
|
Kryptos
Stranger

Registered: 11/01/14
Posts: 12,847
Last seen: 18 hours, 47 minutes
|
Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Metoo] 2
#28498398 - 10/10/23 02:14 AM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Metoo said: If you are uncomfortable with my analysis there is an alternative worldview you are free to adopt - as per the closing para of my post.
False dichotomy.
Alternative worldview: Hamas uses guerilla war tactics, against a more and more online world, to great effect.
Your analysis of "Islamic" war tactics, as well as your analysis of "compassionate rape (Islam style)" can be safely discounted as the, once again, aggressively anti-islamic bullshit that it is. Because both of those fall under traditional guerilla and terror tactics.
|
Stable Genius
Radicalised


Registered: 09/26/18
Posts: 6,234
Loc: Wide Bay Orstralia
Last seen: 8 days, 19 hours
|
Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Kryptos]
#28498400 - 10/10/23 02:17 AM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
|
|
You're on a roll today.
|
Milleresque
Stranger
Registered: 04/10/22
Posts: 477
Last seen: 10 hours, 47 minutes
|
Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Metoo] 1
#28498403 - 10/10/23 02:31 AM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Metoo said: Hamas did not co-ordinate with Hezbollah in a sense that there was no HB attack timed to coincide - this is a matter of record. The Hamas attack was probably created by Iran so no surprise their man was at hand to help run the op.
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/09/no-evidence-yet-of-iran-link-to-hamas-attack-says-israeli-military
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/09/u-s-and-israeli-officials-remain-uncertain-of-iranian-involvement-in-hamas-attack-00120606
Egypt knew. They told Israel. Nothing was done.
-------------------- “Develop an interest in life as you see it; in people, things, literature, music - the world is so rich, simply throbbing with rich treasures, beautiful souls and interesting people. Forget yourself.“ Henry Miller
Edited by Milleresque (10/10/23 02:33 AM)
|
sudly
Quasar Praiser

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,594
|
Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
#28498440 - 10/10/23 03:36 AM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
|
|
Hamas had a special military operation too, but they didn't have the teeth to stick in like the US and Russia.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
Stable Genius
Radicalised


Registered: 09/26/18
Posts: 6,234
Loc: Wide Bay Orstralia
Last seen: 8 days, 19 hours
|
Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: sudly]
#28498451 - 10/10/23 04:12 AM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
|
|
Yes but they made the most of one bulldozer, a couple of fishing boats and a few ultra lights. Necessity was truly the mother of all invention… and desperation was the father.
|
SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,782
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 23 hours, 57 minutes
|
Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Metoo]
#28498456 - 10/10/23 04:35 AM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
|
|
When the dust settles, you think the outright targeting of civilians will be a PR boost to Hamas on any entity not orginially associated with them?
The elememt of suprise is universal and a heralded military strategy.... whether its to break through, envelop, or outflank an enemy on the battlefield. This could be even be a feint, or a rouse.
The shock of the above has physical and mental attributes associated with it. Pearl Harbor, the Trogan Horse, Trenton, 9/11, etc. The issue I am having is that suprise must overwhelm, demoralize, and put such an operational strain / morale destroying stake through the heart that victory is in grasp. It must also make a furtherance of successful military operations to commence. What is Hamas gonna do now,...what military operation is now in a better position? Execute those taken hostage?
I don't see it here....I think the vast majority of people will back Israeli efforts and possibly bring those on the fence with them.
Edited by SirTripAlot (10/10/23 04:53 AM)
|
Stable Genius
Radicalised


Registered: 09/26/18
Posts: 6,234
Loc: Wide Bay Orstralia
Last seen: 8 days, 19 hours
|
Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28498464 - 10/10/23 04:51 AM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
|
|
A PR boost? No it’s completely unhinged madness, like that poor girls body in the back of that truck utterly disgusting and sickening.
I guess this is what happens when an entire nation is treated like animals for decades. I’m not justifying their actions, just questioning and trying to understand why this has happened.

Like that screenshot is just wrong
|
SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,782
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 23 hours, 57 minutes
|
Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] 1
#28498481 - 10/10/23 05:39 AM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
|
|
No doubt, Israel has some soul searching to do. It has come to the point that even Jewish news sites admit this and are highly critical/ want the politics to change regarding Palestine. The status quo gotta change.
So does the rest of the world when it comes to Palestine....this is not just laid at the feet of the Jewish state. Do people realize the Palestinians where kicked out of Jordon and didnt get the West Bank, nothing? The PLO moved to Lebanon....guess what, they didnt stay there either.
How much aid does Palestine get....WTF do they do with it? What about Egypt and their blockade? If the Palestinian authority/ Hamas put as much effort of this attack, into other things....would the Palestinians be in a better position?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (10/10/23 05:51 AM)
|
chopstick
nobody



Registered: 07/26/08
Posts: 5,252
Loc: Chin's Wok
|
Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28498530 - 10/10/23 07:26 AM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
|
|

Done with the full blessing of the US government. You know, because Israel is so special.
Hamas mentioned the other day that they only used 2,000 soldiers for the border raid operation, and that they have some 40,000 more in reserve.
This means Hamas still has a lot of fight left in them and that a potential IDF ground operation into the Gaza strip will be exceptionally difficult to pull off. The IDF is not like Wagner, their ground troops are not that experienced and they are used to their air force doing all the heavy lifting. They will take high casualties in such an operation.
Israel should call off the ground operation and just be sated with killing a few thousand "animals" aka civilians via airstrikes. Otherwise they risk both a failed ground operation that will be both costly and embarrassing and they risk Hezbollah joining the war, which they said they would do incase of a ground operation, and would be nothing short of a catastrophe. Israel will have a very difficult time fighting a war on multiple fronts.
|
B Traven
Stranger



Registered: 03/10/20
Posts: 2,787
Loc: Central Megalopolis
Last seen: 4 hours, 40 minutes
|
Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: sudly] 2
#28498538 - 10/10/23 07:37 AM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
sudly said: Look, let's all be upfront, I think war with Iran will make Afghanistan look like a cake walk, and that was a disaster.
In a circle of violence and vengeance.
I think Hamas has to target Erdowan to have a pinch of a chance to topple him. Otherwise Gaza will be wiped.
It looks like some in America are chanting and trying to be hawks in neocon style for war with Iran.
So my question is, does anyone here think that war with Iran will be a productive enterprise?
It looks to me like countries without nukes are targeted by those that do.
Be it Russia in Ukraine, or the US when they inevitably invade or strike Iran.
Let's reflect back here when Iran nukes Erdowan.
They'll call it a strike from the gods, a single touch of his power to topple his enemy, at whatever cost. For Allah has willed it.
Quote:
'afeal dhalik li'ana allah 'arad dhalik
allahu akbar
Every fundamentalist extremist regime, to whatever degree it's appropriate to use those terms, has to fight on at least two fronts. Their first problem is always keeping people on the ground in their own country under control. War is a great way to do lots of things to handle that situation, from paying restless young men to follow orders to forcing civilians to declare their loyalty. It's the ultimate "shut up, your problems aren't important right now, we can talk about who runs things after I'm done running this war" type of move. It rallies the base and forces the dissidents in a corner. Sometimes it blows up and leads to a regime change, but it's often the only viable move for men who know nothing but violence, corruption, and subjugation.
Also, never forget, in any conflict there are people making a killing on arms sales and military supply.
Like the US and Russia, the US and Iran have gotten tremendous mileage out of rattling sabres at each other and fighting proxy wars. I don’t really see it progressing past that for now, as there's not much benefit. Iran knows that a nuke would be a suicide attack for their regime. The US has always known that it doesn't want to occupy Persia. A boogeyman with some military might and political stability is an OK deal for the hawks. It's worth a lot of money in defense contracting. Yelling about war with Iran at a time like this is great political theater, though. Most of their base remember the hostage crisis, and bought those Mickey Mouse "Fuck You, Iran" bumper stickers.
The Israeli blockade and occupation (and Egypt's fuckwaddery) created fertile ground for Hamas to take over political life in Gaza. But Hamas still doesn't have much reach, or much of a future. So they're the perfect nihilistic aggressor to funnel money and arms to, while you remain "not at war."
This is all like El Salvador or Nicaragua in the 80's. There's no real point to any of it, and no "clean" outcome where one side gets what they want.
-------------------- Beware of advice- even this.
|
The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 34,046
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 1 hour, 19 minutes
|
Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: B Traven] 1
#28498556 - 10/10/23 08:08 AM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
|
|
Well said.
Also think it’s important to note that virtually every military/resistance group of Palestine is/was participating in this offensive, from Hamas, to Islamic Jihad, to Marxist-Leninist factions.
But Hamas has the highest negative word association with the whites so that’s the noun we’re going with. Just look at the thread title.
--------------------
|
Ice9
3X Ban Lotto Champion



Registered: 03/20/14
Posts: 12,287
Loc: daterapeville,USA
Last seen: 53 minutes, 43 seconds
|
Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: chopstick]
#28498636 - 10/10/23 09:48 AM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
chopstick said:

Obviously necessary, all those pesky human shields and what not. sarcasm, for those of you unaware of my previous criticisms of choppie here
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
|
Metoo
Stranger


Registered: 10/13/18
Posts: 1,524
Last seen: 2 months, 7 days
|
Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Ice9] 1
#28498828 - 10/10/23 01:22 PM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: When the dust settles, you think the outright targeting of civilians will be a PR boost to Hamas on any entity not orginially associated with them?
The elememt of suprise is universal and a heralded military strategy.... whether its to break through, envelop, or outflank an enemy on the battlefield. This could be even be a feint, or a rouse.
The shock of the above has physical and mental attributes associated with it. Pearl Harbor, the Trogan Horse, Trenton, 9/11, etc. The issue I am having is that suprise must overwhelm, demoralize, and put such an operational strain / morale destroying stake through the heart that victory is in grasp. It must also make a furtherance of successful military operations to commence. What is Hamas gonna do now,...what military operation is now in a better position? Execute those taken hostage?
I don't see it here....I think the vast majority of people will back Israeli efforts and possibly bring those on the fence with them.
My post one page back was in response to the forum questions about the goals of Hamas. To your point - their goal was not to impress the Western world with their civility and war ethics but rather to give the sponsors a bang for their buck. And to secure new funding from the donation pool available worldwide for jihad, in its various forms.
Given how deadly effective the raid was Metoo thinks that money will pour in from both the traditional sponsors of Hamas, as well as those who up til now preferred to support other jihadist outfits like Taliban or Boko Haram. I will repeat what I said before - this show was not for the West and it is borderline irrelevant that our sensitivities were triggered. This bit is really easy.
What is harder to integrate from our cultural perspective is that, beyond capturing and killing as many Israelis as possible, Hamas do not need to achieve any military success for their gig to be a legendary, morale-building win for the jihadi cause. You think in terms of a military operation, which would need to achieve a breakthrough, outflank the enemy etc. But jihad is a process and its proponents have both time and massive social, religious and cultural backing to keep going - generation after generation. What makes this clash truely asymmetric is that, to the leadership of Hamas holed up in the hotels Quatar, both the Israeli and Palestinian casualties are a PR win, whereas for the Israeli side they are both a loss.
On the Western media game. It started 90% for Israel but as the movies of killings ran out they got replaced by the footage of bombs falling on Gaza so around 50/50 now. There will be no more new phone clips from the rave concert or Ashkelon but the other ones will keep coming, so there is only one way this PR battle is going.
|
Metoo
Stranger


Registered: 10/13/18
Posts: 1,524
Last seen: 2 months, 7 days
|
Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Kryptos]
#28498876 - 10/10/23 02:02 PM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kryptos said:
False dichotomy.
Alternative worldview: Hamas uses guerilla war tactics, against a more and more online world, to great effect.
Your analysis of "Islamic" war tactics, as well as your analysis of "compassionate rape (Islam style)" can be safely discounted as the, once again, aggressively anti-islamic bullshit that it is. Because both of those fall under traditional guerilla and terror tactics.
You seem to be implying that the "compassionate rape" things is my analysis but it is not. When I first read the chilling passages in which Muhammad gave detailed instruction when and how it is ok to have sex with the captured females I was shocked and looked for the contemporary Muslim perspective. This is where I came across the the argument that it was in fact a compassionate act - their husbands had just been killed so these women were available.
Since you are showing interest in the subject - there is a separate scriptural debate about the women whose husbands had not been killed but rather captured. Here, also, Muhammad gave very clear instructions how to proceed:
FROM THE HADITH OF THE SUNAN OF ABU DAWUD, VOLUME 2, # 2150:
Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Quranic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess". That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period." [The Quran verse is 4:24]. [Metoo: this para is pulled from the website, not my analysis]: The note on this Hadith says that "After the distribution of the spoils of war a man may have intercourse with the female slave after passing one menstrual period, if she is not pregnant. If she is pregnant one should wait till she delivers the child. This is the view held by Malik, al-Shafi and Abu Thawr. Abu Hanifah holds that if both the husband and wife are captivated together, their marriage tie still continues; they will not be separated. According to the majority of scholars, they will be separated. Al-Awzai maintains that their marriage tie will continue till they remain part of the spoils of war. If a man buys them, he may separate them if he desires, and cohabit with the female slave after one menstrual period.
https://answeringislam.org/Silas/femalecaptives.htm
|
SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,782
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 23 hours, 57 minutes
|
Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: chopstick]
#28498943 - 10/10/23 02:56 PM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
chopstick said:

Done with the full blessing of the US government. You know, because Israel is so special.
Hamas mentioned the other day that they only used 2,000 soldiers for the border raid operation, and that they have some 40,000 more in reserve.
This means Hamas still has a lot of fight left in them and that a potential IDF ground operation into the Gaza strip will be exceptionally difficult to pull off. The IDF is not like Wagner, their ground troops are not that experienced and they are used to their air force doing all the heavy lifting. They will take high casualties in such an operation.
Israel should call off the ground operation and just be sated with killing a few thousand "animals" aka civilians via airstrikes. Otherwise they risk both a failed ground operation that will be both costly and embarrassing and they risk Hezbollah joining the war, which they said they would do incase of a ground operation, and would be nothing short of a catastrophe. Israel will have a very difficult time fighting a war on multiple fronts.
Yeah, a completely unprovoked attack. It would have been better to have a circle of restoration and maybe banter in a focus group. I am certain, if someone started chopping heads in your hometown, you would advocate a more kind, gentle approach.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
|
B Traven
Stranger



Registered: 03/10/20
Posts: 2,787
Loc: Central Megalopolis
Last seen: 4 hours, 40 minutes
|
Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: SirTripAlot] 2
#28498961 - 10/10/23 03:11 PM (7 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Fuck all this painting with a broad brush.
It's stupid.
"Israel" and "Gaza" are effectively the same place. Lots of people on both sides of that arbitrary line hate their governments, especially right now. How safe it is to express that thought, or disobey military orders, is another matter.
There is no one "contemporary Muslim thought" any more than there's one "contemporary Christian" or "contemporary Jewish" thought. Hamas didn't develop and take over Gaza on the strength of an old religious text. They didn't decide to commit atrocities because the Koran said it was OK. Their hatred and malice metastasized under a situation that would push most people to extremes. Everyone makes up an ancient-sounding reason to justify their bullshit. And if parts of the Muslim world are supporting this madness, that too stems from anti-colonial resentment and global geopolitics. People have used both the Bible and the Koran to justify pretty much whatever they want. Even Buddhists have pulled shit like that.
Regardless of what might be "warranted" as response, we all know they'll go completely overboard. With the explicit support of the US government.
-------------------- Beware of advice- even this.
Edited by B Traven (10/10/23 03:26 PM)
|
Metoo
Stranger


Registered: 10/13/18
Posts: 1,524
Last seen: 2 months, 7 days
|
Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: B Traven]
#28499053 - 10/10/23 04:34 PM (7 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
B Traven said: There is no one "contemporary Muslim thought" any more than there's one "contemporary Christian" or "contemporary Jewish" thought.
Agreed - relying on a single source of information is a trap and so I consulted many analyses, supporting differing viewpoints. The post above references the opinions of a few Muslim scholars who vary in their interpretation of Muhammad's instructions. Some believe that the captured women whose husbands are alive can be raped straight after their period while others claim that they have to be sold first. Some also take the view that the marriage bonds these women were under automatically dissolve when the captives are taken to a Muslim country and they can be raped then. So yes, there is a diversity of opinions and I have clearly outlined it.
Quote:
B Traven said: Hamas didn't develop and take over Gaza on the strength of an old religious text. They didn't decide to commit atrocities because the Koran said it was OK.
Here I also agree - partially. The jihad warriors we see in the videos have been fucked by Israel for decades and their root motivation is absolute frustration. The religious framework supporting what they do adds another dimension of purpose to the project, though - and gives an after-life insurance policy in case they get martyred. And yes, the Christian crusaders were exactly the same.
But the financial backers of the global jihad operate differently. They are well educated, cultured, devout and use their funds to support the interpretation of Islam which aligns with their own views. In the case of the Saudi Wahhabis, this is a very scripture-based approach - remember that they only officially abolished slavery in 1962. The Islamic State structure was explicitly and entirely based on the warring doctrine of Muhammad - thousands of the captured Yazidi women attest to it. This is not a culturally insensitive beat up by the Western racists - their country was actually run on this sick software, for as long as it lasted.
|
lifeiswhatyoumake


Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 17,363
Last seen: 8 minutes, 14 seconds
|
Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Metoo] 1
#28499063 - 10/10/23 04:40 PM (7 months, 3 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Metoo said:The post above references the opinions of a few Muslim scholars who vary in their interpretation of Muhammad's instructions. Some believe that the captured women whose husbands are alive can be raped straight after their period while others claim that they have to be sold first. Some also take the view that the marriage bonds these women were under automatically dissolve when the captives are taken to a Muslim country and they can be raped then.
Geeze, imagine talking to your brothers and sisters about this and figuring out if it's more moral to rape a woman before or after she's sold into slavery. Animals.
|
|