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Kryptos
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: B Traven] 2
#28495652 - 10/07/23 04:50 PM (3 months, 19 days ago) |
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I've seen a couple claims of intelligence failures. Which is very possible.
Also, apparently IDF troops go home for the Sabbath? Hence, the intelligence failure was magnified, because due to religious custom the soldiers weren't even near their posts.
Thing about religious nuts killing other religious nuts, and religious nuts in general, is that they follow these weird-ass rituals for some reason, and those rituals rarely, if ever, make sense.
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: B Traven] 3
#28496360 - 10/08/23 10:16 AM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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My limited information makes Palestine seem exactly like an open-air prison. As far as I can tell, the borders are closed in every direction, including non-Israeli directions, by Israel. All utilities are controlled by Israel, all infrastructure is controlled by Israel. Unemployment is >50%, and IDF forces routinely shoot into Palestine indiscriminately. And, of course, Israeli settlements routinely pop up (with associated massacres of the previous occupants).
Personally, I agree with the idea that it is human nature to seek to escape confinement.
I also think that when people run out of ways to redress their grievances peacefully, they will turn to violence.
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28496402 - 10/08/23 11:05 AM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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Unfortunately, the UN is also human and therefore rarely consistent and evenhanded.
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: koods] 1
#28496492 - 10/08/23 12:16 PM (3 months, 18 days ago) |
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People die, ideas don't. Dead people cheapen life, and a place with >50% unemployment has a lot of people with not much going on.
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: gww]
#28497173 - 10/08/23 11:04 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
gww said: There is no getting around that killing over 200 civilians at a music festival can not be justified by acts of some government they don't like. They probably killed some of their own in this. This is not the kind of accident that happens because people were around somebody important and it was collateral damage or one of their fire crackers malfunctioned and didn't go where the tried for it to go. Cheers
Hanlon's Razor is doing a lot of work right now stopping me from calling this Bibi's Reichstag Fire.
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Ice9]
#28497685 - 10/09/23 01:55 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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Conspiracy nutter mode is that this is a Reichstag fire engineered, or at the very least allowed, by Bibi to justify the upcoming genocide of gaza.
Conspiracy nutter mode also says that Trump giving Russia Israeli intelligence gave Iran the information they needed to pass to Hamas to circumvent the Israeli Iron Dome, as well as the human intelligence networks.
Given both, the outcome would be (a) trump got paid and (b) Bibi justifies a genocide.
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] 1
#28497808 - 10/09/23 03:46 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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Stable Genius said:
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Enlil said:
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Stable Genius said: List of US politicians as of 2018 with dual citizenship in Israel

Seems like a large representation from one particular party to me 
This is just a straight-up lie. Why would you post something obviously false like this? I find it ironic when cryptonazis distinguish themselves from being anti-jew to anti-zionist by saying "not all jews align with Israel." Then they equate being jewish with being a citizen of Israel with a photo like the one you posted.
So you’re saying all those people listed(except Dianne Feinstein) aren’t dual citizens? What’s the problem with posting an obviously large number of pro Israel U.S. politicians when people are asking why is the U.S. ALWAYS ready to look the other way when it comes to Israeli aggression?
It’s either correct or it’s not. Prove its false and I’ll remove it.
Okay! no problem! I picked a random name, Sander Levin. Looked him up on wiki. He's Jewish! He was born in Michigan, though , and he has no citizenship in other countries, , so it turns out he has no dual citizenship in Israel...
Maury: That, was a lie!
[Crowd goes wild]
Well, I guess I've proven you false, but calling you a straight up liar, while arguably true, is against the forum rules.
So I guess I'll use Hanlon's razor again. Never attribute to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity.
Well, SG, I don't think you were, necessarily, malicious in your efforts to defame the name of Sander Levin. I think you might just be stupid.
Shall we pick another name and do this process again? How about this time, you pick! I'm sure that will be more conducive to your argument. Who, of those that you named as having dual citizenship in the US and Israel, actually has a dual citizenship with Israel? Can you find one?
Edit: to use Hanlon's razor again, if you can't find one: are you, in fact, being stupid? (it's okay to be stupid, I don't judge idiots, my job is to identify idiots and make sure that they are not overwhelmed when we assign responsibilities)
Edited by Kryptos (10/09/23 03:57 PM)
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: mycosis] 1
#28497941 - 10/09/23 05:47 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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mycosis said: I don’t really understand what he’s saying but it seems like someone has his nuts in a vise and they’re slowly turning the handle. 
https://twitter.com/officejjsmart/status/1711463902679114219
osta molekum? (not sure, some greeting?--I don't speak Chechen, I'm doing my best here)
hello to all (after the intial osta molekum), *sigh*, I wanna *sigh* touch on the topic, *sigh*, that is happening today, on the territory of Palestine and Israel. I want to call for peaceful cooperation*; So that, vitally, people will, for the first time, be respectful to this situation**. 50 years ago, it was the same, there. Especially, especially, I would like to call, upon muslim countries, so they work together, and form a coalition, and called upon their european friends west...[cuts off here midsentence]***
*ya hochu na mirovoe obchest'va, prizyvat'--I would like (un)to peaceful cooperatioon/coexistance (mirovoe obchest'va = peaceful society), call...[all]
**I'm adding more translation than strictly necessary to hit specific words, maybe?. Edit: I'll be honest man, this here is a key phrase and I'm having some trouble with it. I am somewhat out of practice, this is not my dialect, and the more I listen the more I question.
***Probably implying working with their western European friends (?)
---
Nuts in a vice? Nah.
Sobriety? Questionable.
Edited by Kryptos (10/09/23 06:15 PM)
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Metoo]
#28498158 - 10/09/23 08:22 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Metoo said: It not commonly appreciated (and the Western media will not touch this topic) but Hamas follow the desert warfare manual revealed by the warlord Muhammad in 7th century AD. First liberate the prisoners the other side in holding - thousands were released by Israel in exchange for the captured soldiers or their bodily remains in the past. It is the easiest way to recruit committed fighters. Then use deception to confuse the enemy as to one's true intentions. Attack when least expected and with maximum force, to wipe out the opposition. Take captives - both male and female - for prisoner swaps and also as property, according to Muhammad's instructions. For those who are not aware, Muhammad even clarified that the captured females can be raped only after their period - in case they are already pregnant - so this is a well codified affair.
That sounds like a hell of a stretch. Or at least a combination of basic bitch guerilla warfare tactics and "muh wemenz" hysteria tortured into a significantly anti-islamic take.
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Metoo] 2
#28498398 - 10/10/23 02:14 AM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
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Metoo said: If you are uncomfortable with my analysis there is an alternative worldview you are free to adopt - as per the closing para of my post.
False dichotomy.
Alternative worldview: Hamas uses guerilla war tactics, against a more and more online world, to great effect.
Your analysis of "Islamic" war tactics, as well as your analysis of "compassionate rape (Islam style)" can be safely discounted as the, once again, aggressively anti-islamic bullshit that it is. Because both of those fall under traditional guerilla and terror tactics.
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Metoo] 2
#28499138 - 10/10/23 05:22 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
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Metoo said:
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Kryptos said:
False dichotomy.
Alternative worldview: Hamas uses guerilla war tactics, against a more and more online world, to great effect.
Your analysis of "Islamic" war tactics, as well as your analysis of "compassionate rape (Islam style)" can be safely discounted as the, once again, aggressively anti-islamic bullshit that it is. Because both of those fall under traditional guerilla and terror tactics.
You seem to be implying that the "compassionate rape" things is my analysis but it is not. When I first read the chilling passages in which Muhammad gave detailed instruction when and how it is ok to have sex with the captured females I was shocked and looked for the contemporary Muslim perspective. This is where I came across the the argument that it was in fact a compassionate act - their husbands had just been killed so these women were available.
Since you are showing interest in the subject - there is a separate scriptural debate about the women whose husbands had not been killed but rather captured. Here, also, Muhammad gave very clear instructions how to proceed:
FROM THE HADITH OF THE SUNAN OF ABU DAWUD, VOLUME 2, # 2150:
Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Quranic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess". That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period." [The Quran verse is 4:24]. [Metoo: this para is pulled from the website, not my analysis]: The note on this Hadith says that "After the distribution of the spoils of war a man may have intercourse with the female slave after passing one menstrual period, if she is not pregnant. If she is pregnant one should wait till she delivers the child. This is the view held by Malik, al-Shafi and Abu Thawr. Abu Hanifah holds that if both the husband and wife are captivated together, their marriage tie still continues; they will not be separated. According to the majority of scholars, they will be separated. Al-Awzai maintains that their marriage tie will continue till they remain part of the spoils of war. If a man buys them, he may separate them if he desires, and cohabit with the female slave after one menstrual period.
https://answeringislam.org/Silas/femalecaptives.htm
My point is that your choice to use Muhammad's writings on rape, but not, for example, the (ordered by Greek commanders) mass rape of Trojans, is intended to have a very specific effect, best described as "Islamophobic".
However, a comparison between the above, including waiting, and the orders given to Greek soldiers during the sack of Troy, for example, actually does kinda make Islam seem more compassionate.
Quote:
As Professor Kathy L. Gaca, an authority on ancient sexual violence puts it, evidence from the 8th century B.C.E indicates that martial rape was a top-down part of the orders given. It was integral to waging warfare, not a “boys will be boys” accompaniment to war. For instance, in the Iliad, Agamemnon’s most senior adviser, Nestor, threatens the Achaean Greek soldiers with death if they try to go home before “properly” conquering Troy, meaning raping Trojan women: “Therefore let none make haste to go till he has first lain with the wife of some Trojan” - Iliad 2.354-359
Guerilla tactics and using rape as a weapon of war has nothing to do with Islam. The way you describe it, Hamas invented both the sneak attack and the idea of raping female captives.
Edit: I could also point out, for example, that Islamic law prohibits fucking with the civilian food supply during war and poisoning wells, something that Israel (clearly) has no problem doing, since they have cut off all food supplies to Gaza.
Edited by Kryptos (10/10/23 05:32 PM)
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Milleresque] 1
#28499315 - 10/10/23 07:42 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
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Milleresque said: This is shaping up to look a little like a project in potential genocide under the cover of war.
Nothing potential about it.
This is something I see with Ukraine, considering my exposure to media of both sides, where you start to pick up on small things. For example, I read an article the other day where the headline was something like "98 killed in Hamas Raid, 197 dead in Gaza"
What's the difference between "killed" and "dead"? What do those words imply? Which one has agency, and which one is a passive description of the situation? Why?
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
#28499451 - 10/10/23 09:57 PM (3 months, 16 days ago) |
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They also used primarily AR-15 pattern rifles, does this mean that the US is definitively involved in the attack as well?
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
#28499487 - 10/10/23 10:54 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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If Hamas had used HIMARS I would assume that they were diverted from a shipment to Ukraine. I would not assume that the US supplied the rockets directly and willingly.
While Iran likely does want to arm Hamas, I really don't think they'd be stupid enough to do it directly in a world full of arms dealers and a major war of attrition in Europe, where war materials can quietly disappear and people won't notice.
Actually, having written all of that out...I would assume that these were rockets diverted from the Russian war effort, maybe.
Either way, as with my response to Metoo above, it seems that you are not equally applying your standard across the board. If the presence of Iranian designed weapons can be assumed evidence of Iranian involvement, why does the presence of US designed weapons not imply the same?
If US weapons can be acquired without the explicit blessing of the US, why would that not be true for Iran? Both the US and Iran have robust weapons industries and both countries are prolific exporters of weapons, often through vaguely criminal intermediaries.
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: twighead] 1
#28499924 - 10/11/23 10:39 AM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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twighead said:
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Kryptos said: If Hamas had used HIMARS I would assume that they were diverted from a shipment to Ukraine. I would not assume that the US supplied the rockets directly and willingly.
While Iran likely does want to arm Hamas, I really don't think they'd be stupid enough to do it directly in a world full of arms dealers and a major war of attrition in Europe, where war materials can quietly disappear and people won't notice.
Actually, having written all of that out...I would assume that these were rockets diverted from the Russian war effort, maybe.
Either way, as with my response to Metoo above, it seems that you are not equally applying your standard across the board. If the presence of Iranian designed weapons can be assumed evidence of Iranian involvement, why does the presence of US designed weapons not imply the same?
If US weapons can be acquired without the explicit blessing of the US, why would that not be true for Iran? Both the US and Iran have robust weapons industries and both countries are prolific exporters of weapons, often through vaguely criminal intermediaries.
The analysis is good n' all but it's fact that Hamas receives the majority of their funding via Iran since 2006 when Saudi Arabia bailed on them.
Israel receives the majority of their funding via the US. Is it the fault of the US when some random IDF commando decides to execute a few Palestinian kids on the other side of the fence?
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
#28499938 - 10/11/23 10:46 AM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Psilynut2 said:
Quote:
. If the presence of Iranian designed weapons can be assumed evidence of Iranian involvement, why does the presence of US designed weapons not imply the same?
Because you comparing rifles that any of us can purchase parts for and assemble at home to a giant sophisticated missile that has to be stolen and looks impossible to hide . How the fuck are you going to steal a missile so large it needs a giant truck to be driven around on from Iran and then get it to Palestine with no one noticing ? You aren't applying the most basic level of rational thought to this .
You really think the us or Iran could lose equipment like that without knowing exactly where it is ?
Yes, I do. Because if the missile was so giant and impossible to hide, how TF did ~3000 of them get through the Israeli blockade for the purposes of this attack?
I will tell you how. Mostly paraphrasing a NYT article I read a few days back: Iran sells ten missiles to an intermediary, which claims that only nine missiles work, and sells those nine to Russia, while sending parts of one to Hamas. Iran probably knows that their weapons are being diverted, much like we know that US weapon shipments routinely get diverted, but they probably don't care. Missiles are assembled by specialists in Palestine, and stockpiled for attacks.
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Enlil]
#28499973 - 10/11/23 11:04 AM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Enlil said:
Quote:
Kryptos said:
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Psilynut2 said:
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. If the presence of Iranian designed weapons can be assumed evidence of Iranian involvement, why does the presence of US designed weapons not imply the same?
Because you comparing rifles that any of us can purchase parts for and assemble at home to a giant sophisticated missile that has to be stolen and looks impossible to hide . How the fuck are you going to steal a missile so large it needs a giant truck to be driven around on from Iran and then get it to Palestine with no one noticing ? You aren't applying the most basic level of rational thought to this .
You really think the us or Iran could lose equipment like that without knowing exactly where it is ?
Yes, I do. Because if the missile was so giant and impossible to hide, how TF did ~3000 of them get through the Israeli blockade for the purposes of this attack?
Do you have a source for the claim that 3000 missiles were used in the attack?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-duped-hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08/
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Enlil]
#28500004 - 10/11/23 11:24 AM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Enlil said: Cool link, but I asked for one that supports your claim that 3000 missiles were used...not 3000 rockets. Psily was specifically talking about these:

I can't find any evidence of something like that being used at all.
Now, I'm no expert, but that looks a lot like a Shahab 3 MRBM, with a range of approximately 2,000 km. The distance between Palestine and Jerusalem, on the other side of Israel, is 77km. Seems like a waste.
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
#28500041 - 10/11/23 12:00 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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Enlil said: You're the one who said 3,000 of them were. 
Clearly they weren't. So, the lack of Iranian missiles being used by Hamas is now evidence of Iranian support for Hamas?
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Psilynut2 said:
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much like we know that US weapon shipments routinely get diverted,
Routinely ? I imagine some weapons get misplaced or lost over the years but you're saying it happens regularly ? Do you have any evidence of that claim . Especially something relating to large equipment you can't just throw in the back of a truck . I was talking specifically about the giant missile in the picture . That isn't something you're going to get out of Iran and into Palestine without the Iranian govts help .
It's a big enough problem that the US government has a dedicated action plan.
I'm guessing that the government won't actually announce what percent of weapons get misplaced. For reasons that are pretty obvious.
Having done some more looking at that picture, and some more searching, That looks a lot like a Yemeni flag, no?
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: mycosis] 2
#28500079 - 10/11/23 12:44 PM (3 months, 15 days ago) |
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NYT: US intelligence shows Iranian officials surprised by Hamas attack.
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The United States has collected multiple pieces of intelligence that show that key Iranian leaders were surprised by the Hamas attack in Israel, information that has fueled U.S. doubts that Iran played a direct role in planning the assault, according to several American officials.
These key Iranian officials did not know the attack was coming, according to the intelligence. The United States, Israel and key regional allies have not found evidence that Iran directly helped plan the attack, according to the U.S. officials and another official in the Middle East.
While they would not identify the Iranian officials who expressed surprise at the attack, the U.S. officials said they were people who typically would be aware of operations involving the Quds Force, Iran's paramilitary arm that supports and works with proxy forces.
U.S. officials said the intelligence investigation was continuing and could turn up evidence that Iran or other states were directly involved in the Hamas operation. Senior officials said they were keeping an open mind, reviewing old intelligence reports and looking for new information.
Iran has provided large numbers of weapons and support to Hamas over many years. U.S. officials have made clear that they believe this makes Tehran broadly complicit in the attack. But that was a different issue than direct knowledge and involvement, they said.
Morgan Muir, a senior U.S. intelligence official, told members of Congress in a briefing on Tuesday that there was no direct link between Iran and the Hamas attack, U.S. officials said. Mr. Muir provided few details but told lawmakers that U.S. agencies had intelligence contradicting assertions that Iran had helped plan the attack.
The United States and its allies regularly track and monitor meetings between Quds Force leaders and their proxies and allies, including Hamas. But officials say there is no evidence that those meetings were used to plan the attack in Israel. While officials concede that there could have been other secret meetings that Western intelligence did not track, for now they have found no evidence of such meetings.
The U.S. officials spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss the intelligence and requested that The New York Times not report the means of collection to protect sources and methods.
Jake Sullivan, the national security adviser, said on Tuesday that agencies had not collected intelligence about direct Iranian involvement in the attack.
Officials said Mr. Sullivan’s remarks reflected the intelligence collected so far, which did not point to direct involvement by Iran.
“We have said since the beginning: Iran is complicit in this attack in a broad sense because they have provided the lion’s share of the funding for the military arm of Hamas,” he said. “They have provided training, they have provided capabilities.”
President Biden is facing fierce criticism from some members of the Republican Party, including candidates for president, who accuse the administration of being soft on Iran. The Biden administration has been trying unsuccessfully to revive a nuclear deal with Iran and recently negotiated a deal for the release of prisoners. In exchange, Iran gained access to $6 billion in frozen oil revenues for humanitarian purposes.
Former President Donald J. Trump and other Republicans tried to cast blame on Mr. Biden, saying that those funds helped to finance the assault. But that $6 billion is not U.S. taxpayer money, as Mr. Trump and others falsely stated. Nor is there evidence that the money, which officials have said is subject to Treasury Department oversight, was used to finance the attacks.
Treasury Secretary Janet L. Yellen did not rule out the possibility of reversing a decision made last month to unfreeze the $6 billion in Iranian funds if it is determined that the country was involved in the attack by Hamas. Ms. Yellen said the funds had not yet been touched.
The United States moved an aircraft carrier to the region, a step meant to deter Iran or its proxies from opening another front in the wake of the assault.
This also lays out a very clear difference that I was also trying to lay out in my previous posts. Iran may be "broadly complicit", as they generally fund and train Hamas, just like the US is "broadly complicit" in the genocidal actions of Israel towards Palestine.
But Iran is not directly responsible for this attack, much like the US is not directly responsible for an IDF commando picking off Palestinian kids for fun. Sorry ecstatic.
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