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OfflineB Traven
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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: chopstick]
    #28495641 - 10/07/23 04:44 PM (3 months, 19 days ago)

I haven't done a deep news dive yet, as I'm just not ready to wade through all the inevitable bullshit.

But I'm really struggling to understand how over a dozen trucks loaded with armed men were able to drive around in Israel, and randomly go from house to house killing people.

And I understand that a bunch of rocket attacks at once can overwhelm any defenses, but don't they also have all sorts of surveillance and aerial defense systems in place?

I'm not a big military technology buff, but I really thought the IDF was advanced enough to at least meet a threat like this head-on.

I normally hate conspiracy theories with a passion, but this just feels absurdly convenient. I'd honestly love to be proven wrong there.


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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #28495660 - 10/07/23 04:58 PM (3 months, 19 days ago)

Yeah, that's a great point.

I guess, too, that both Hamas and the IDF are motivated to exaggerate the magnitude of the offensive. An odd case where Hamas wants to claim as many kidnappings and civilian casualties as possible, and the IDF is also interested in hyping this up to justify going HAM. As opposed to more symmetrical warfare, where the tendency is to downplay both your own casualties and the numher of civilians you killed, and do the opposite for your enemies.


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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones]
    #28496286 - 10/08/23 09:05 AM (3 months, 18 days ago)

Palestine never had a chance to be a truly independent country. Their entire existence has been similar to the Bantustans of South Africa.

Combine that with the Israeli state's policy of collective punishment, and the ability of people from around the world to move to Israel, claim citizenship, and immediately move into illegal settlements, and yeah. There's a brew of boredom, resentment, and rage that won't be easily dispelled.

Israel is an odd place. People move there every day, while a lot of locals see no future there and are trying to get the fuck out. Reminds me of Florida a little.


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Edited by B Traven (10/08/23 09:06 AM)


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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: sudly] * 2
    #28498538 - 10/10/23 07:37 AM (3 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Look, let's all be upfront, I think war with Iran will make Afghanistan look like a cake walk, and that was a disaster.

In a circle of violence and vengeance.

I think Hamas has to target Erdowan to have a pinch of a chance to topple him. Otherwise Gaza will be wiped.

It looks like some in America are chanting and trying to be hawks in neocon style for war with Iran.

So my question is, does anyone here think that war with Iran will be a productive enterprise?

It looks to me like countries without nukes are targeted by those that do.

Be it Russia in Ukraine, or the US when they inevitably invade or strike Iran.

Let's reflect back here when Iran nukes Erdowan.

They'll call it a strike from the gods, a single touch of his power to topple his enemy, at whatever cost. For Allah has willed it.

Quote:

'afeal dhalik li'ana allah 'arad dhalik

allahu akbar








Every fundamentalist extremist regime, to whatever degree it's appropriate to use those terms, has to fight on at least two fronts. Their first problem is always keeping people on the ground in their own country under control. War is a great way to do lots of things to handle that situation, from paying restless young men to follow orders to forcing civilians to declare their loyalty. It's the ultimate "shut up, your problems aren't important right now, we can talk about who runs things after I'm done running this war" type of move. It rallies the base and forces the dissidents in a corner. Sometimes it blows up and leads to a regime change, but it's often the only viable move for men who know nothing but violence, corruption, and subjugation.

Also, never forget, in any conflict there are people making a killing on arms sales and military supply.

Like the US and Russia, the US and Iran have gotten tremendous mileage out of rattling sabres at each other and fighting proxy wars. I don’t really see it progressing past that for now, as there's not much benefit. Iran knows that a nuke would be a suicide attack for their regime. The US has always known that it doesn't want to occupy Persia. A boogeyman with some military might and political stability is an OK deal for the hawks. It's worth a lot of money in defense contracting. Yelling about war with Iran at a time like this is great political theater, though. Most of their base remember the hostage crisis, and bought those Mickey Mouse "Fuck You, Iran" bumper stickers.

The Israeli blockade and occupation (and Egypt's fuckwaddery) created fertile ground for Hamas to take over political life in Gaza. But Hamas still doesn't have much reach, or much of a future. So they're the perfect nihilistic aggressor to funnel money and arms to, while you remain "not at war."

This is all like El Salvador or Nicaragua in the 80's. There's no real point to any of it, and no "clean" outcome where one side gets what they want.


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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: SirTripAlot] * 2
    #28498961 - 10/10/23 03:11 PM (3 months, 16 days ago)

Fuck all this painting with a broad brush.

It's stupid.

"Israel" and "Gaza" are effectively the same place. Lots of people on both sides of that arbitrary line hate their governments, especially right now. How safe it is to express that thought, or disobey military orders, is another matter.

There is no one "contemporary Muslim thought" any more than there's one "contemporary Christian" or "contemporary Jewish" thought. Hamas didn't develop and take over Gaza on the strength of an old religious text. They didn't decide to commit atrocities because the Koran said it was OK. Their hatred and malice metastasized under a situation that would push most people to extremes. Everyone makes up an ancient-sounding reason to justify their bullshit. And if parts of the Muslim world are supporting this madness, that too stems from anti-colonial resentment and global geopolitics. People have used both the Bible and the Koran to justify pretty much whatever they want. Even Buddhists have pulled shit like that.

Regardless of what might be "warranted" as response, we all know they'll go completely overboard. With the explicit support of the US government.


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Edited by B Traven (10/10/23 03:26 PM)


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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #28499729 - 10/11/23 07:40 AM (3 months, 15 days ago)

Come on now.

I'm sure Hamas ordered the missiles from AliExpress, like anyone would.

Or, at least anyone in Gaza. Because Amazon doesn't offer free Prime shipping there.


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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: McKennasMoustache]
    #28500646 - 10/11/23 07:22 PM (3 months, 15 days ago)

Quote:

McKennasMoustache said:
It is an open air prison. That's why their warnings to civilians to leave is ridiculous. Israel controls what goes in and out.




I heard a reporter who is currently in Israel describe their warnings as specific ones to leave certain buildings before they level them. Delivered unreliably by text message about 5 minutes beforehand.


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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #28500915 - 10/11/23 09:30 PM (3 months, 15 days ago)

Somebody else posted this in one of these threads, and I found it very helpful in wrapping my head around things:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-duped-hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08/

Even the fighters training for the invasion supposedly had no idea what they were doing.

And I bet stumbling across a rave in the desert was unexpected, too, unless they had people combing social media looking for events.

The more I think about it, the more that rave seems like the height of hubris. Puts Woodstock 99 to shame.


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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #28501178 - 10/12/23 05:15 AM (3 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
That rave happens every year at the end of sukkot





Was it always held in that location?


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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: mushboy] * 2
    #28501570 - 10/12/23 12:04 PM (3 months, 14 days ago)

Unfortunately, I think our world is a lot closer to the Idiocracy track than it is the Star Trek one.


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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: koods] * 1
    #28501665 - 10/12/23 01:46 PM (3 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

B Traven said:
Quote:

koods said:
That rave happens every year at the end of sukkot





Was it always held in that location?




I believe it’s put on by the kibbutz, which are Israeli hippie communes




Ah, right, that makes sense.

And they've lived in the shadow of that border wall on a day-to-day basis, somewhat detached from the political reality... "far away" from the hectic north...


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Edited by B Traven (10/12/23 01:47 PM)


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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #28501714 - 10/12/23 02:24 PM (3 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

koods said:
I’ve been watching some Israeli news and man you think the left hates Trump, it ain’t nothing compared to the shit going down in Israel re: Netanyahu.




Honestly surprised that he’s getting blamed for all this.

But it’s not like he was well-liked before.




I'd imagine part of it is that "SECURITY" is very much in his wheelhouse, and underpins his party's messaging.


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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #28502047 - 10/12/23 05:40 PM (3 months, 14 days ago)

The original Star Trek was kind of a Cold War parable, right?

I'm sure that frustration led people in Gaza to vote for Hamas, to whatever extent they actually did of their own free will and without pressure (and really, who the fuck knows?). But there was also internecine fighting, people getting thrown off roofs, and just the isolated nature of Gaza itself.

Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic state. If they become politically irrelevant, or soft, or even just lose control of their population, they're done for. No more support, popular or otherwise. No more Jihad money rolling in.

It's like asking whether Putin cares that he's dragging Russia into dangerous territory. No, of course he doesn't. The only thing that matters is that he stays in charge.


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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: mushboy] * 2
    #28502542 - 10/12/23 10:10 PM (3 months, 14 days ago)

US politicians, including the president, loudly "Stand with Israel" for many reasons.

But one of them is that they're declaring sides in Israel's proxy war with Iran.

They're not moving carrier groups in to shell Gaza. They're doing it to warn all the neighbors to stay in their houses.

And like the cold war, neither side is particularly pressed about any atrocities or human rights abuses that their client states might perpetrate.

I bet it'll be a minute before Biden mentions his concerns about Israel's judicial reform again. Assuming he ever gets around to it.


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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #28502903 - 10/13/23 07:39 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Sounds like rose tinted glasses, albeit.....internationally recognized that LSD missles and Psilocybin gas will be used liberally to restore primal non-dual awareness so that the silly thinking of 'us vs them' gets too blurred to mean anything anything meaningful anymore since everything's seen together in primordial unity or something, having superficial imputed differences become transparent to the mind's of those hit by the substances in sufficiently appropriate doses so that they simply no longer see the point in killing their fellow human family any longer over some dumb ape-man shit their ancestors did back in the day, and, relatives kinda kept doing on both sides up to the present day...look where it got them?

Point made.

Might as well drop those suckers before putting bullets in peoples heads and shit and blasting peoples' homes and businesses and whatnot...better than mandated fucking killing of people by retarded delusional insane government duders being blown by investors in the war business & whatever other vultures profit from direct blowing up of people and their shit and shit...

ffs, srsly, amirit or what?

Why the hell not? 
At the very least, if it doesn't go as i illustrated, they'd be largely incapacitated to the point of not being able to fight or do a damn thing anyways. :oldman:

:chefskiss::maybe:




We know that the human brain doesn't fully develop until the mid-20's. It could be argued that most rank-and-file recruits around the world are effectively child soldiers. And I realized something recently about getting older, vis a vis employment situations: I'm more capable than I ever have been, and could do just about any job I've ever held. But I've also seen and been through enough in my life that I wouldn't listen to most bosses, or take most of the shit jobs out there. Been there, done that. The Red Baron died in combat at 25. Went from cavalry to the messenger corps when cavalry units were deemed obsolete. Wanted to be "in the shit" so to speak, and got moved to the new flying corps. Imagine trying to get a 40-year-old airline pilot to run in dogfights over Belgium.

I have a friend who joined the army in the 1980's, for typical "I'm gonna go do badass shit and be an army man" reasons. He got stationed in Berlin, and promptly started dropping acid and whatnot. Then, walking around on leave in East Berlin, he saw some Russian soldiers on leave. He told me he realized that these were the guys he was there to maybe fight, and that the whole thing no longer made any sense to him. Filed as conscientious objector shortly after.


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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28502926 - 10/13/23 08:04 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Lynnch said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
That is true damn near everywhere right now. Pretty much every public discussion of this situation is just increasingly vicious calls for genocide, with the side depending on the crowd (but US-centric media is generally pro-Israel).

Nice thing about relatively close knit political forums is that the temperature may be set relatively high, but it also doesn't change much.

I don't remember even 2001 being quite so openly genocidal. But that might just be rose tinted glasses.



It's sickening.. a lot of shrieking and taking sides.. if you don't condemn X group, you are therefore fully supportive of Y group. Complete stupidity.

2001 was genocidal, the American public wanted blood, but I think it was more knee-jerk? The current moment is a reaction to all of that.. if anything it's softened by the USAs recent wars.




In 2001, Americans just really really wanted a country to go to war with. I know a lot of people who joined the military after 9/11, like it was their Pearl Harbor moment. They all told me that the bullshit they were assigned to do in Afghanistan and the Middle East quickly disillusioned them of that narrative. While the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan involved lots of killing, destruction, and the usual menu of assymetrical warfare atrocities on all sides, I don't think most people in the US saw it that way. They legitimately thought we were going over there to get the bad guys and free the locals.

This honestly feels more openly genocidal. Like yeah, OK, we got a couple million stateless people who have been a real pain in the ass, nobody's gonna miss em.

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
I also don't believe the premise that every ill whether it be economic or social is all Israel's fault. As I stated before, the Palestinians have a tendency to become unstable by getting kicked out of numerous other countries.




Case in point. Is there some essential difference between the Arabs who managed to get Israeli citizenship, the ones who managed to get citizenship in a neighoring country, and the ones who are stuck with an address in Gaza or the West Bank? Is there some essential difference between the residents of Gaza and the residents of the West Bank? You're falling prey to confirmation bias here.


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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #28502955 - 10/13/23 08:32 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
What's my confirmation bias?




You're describing Palestinians as unstable, but having a Palestinian passport is a recipe for instability. Those who manage to figure something else out, or just happened to be in Jerusalem when the shit went down in 48, are implicitly excluded.


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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #28503025 - 10/13/23 09:29 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Quote:

B Traven said:
Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
What's my confirmation bias?




You're describing Palestinians as unstable, but having a Palestinian passport is a recipe for instability. Those who manage to figure something else out, or just happened to be in Jerusalem when the shit went down in 48, are implicitly excluded.





You need to read what I stated.

To be clear, being  kicked out of countries(like Jordon) makes the situation unstable. Tell me, if you were kicked out of any country, would that indicate stability or instability (whether you deserved it not)?


A confirmation bias includes  challenge avoidance. Where have I done that? You may disagree with what I state but that does not equate to confirmation bias. Additionally, I never brought up anything remotely about passports, you did. You have zero evidence to back this claim.




Uh, no. I'm not going down this rabbithole of debate-babble after you already missed my point. And I'm definitely not getting into an argument about what confirmation bias means.

I brought up passports because that's what actually matters when you're an effectively stateless individual.


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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28503073 - 10/13/23 10:03 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Hypothetically speaking, what would happen if the US doesn't render any support to the Israelis so long as they commit to highly questionable mass killing & other shenanigans of an unethical/immoral nature wrt their neighbors over the most recent major attack? 

ie.  remains completely neutral? what's the status-quo, projection-wise/simulation-wise...w/e...
about how that all would play out?
someone enlighten me, pls.




I'd like to think there could be some sort of middle path, potentially, where they provide a basic amount of support for anti-terrorist police and security measures while engaging with Israel on human rights issues. You know, a "we'll help you intercept missiles, but won't pay for bulldozers" type deal. I think even a shift of the political dialogue in the US would influence Israeli politics and policy to some extent.

There is no universe anywhere in which the US doesn't count Israel as an ally. It's been a fundamental part of the project from day 1. The US is also a nominally democratic country with the second-largest Jewish population in the world. And then, of course, there's all the fundamentalist Christian nutjobs who revere that particular patch of desert over all others, and want to do whatever they can to bring on The Rapture...

This might sound dumb, but I honestly think the solution lies in immigration reform in other countries. It would deprive both extremes of the captive populations they rely on for support.


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Edited by B Traven (10/13/23 10:04 AM)


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Re: The Official Israel/Hamas War Thread. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28503159 - 10/13/23 11:07 AM (3 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Meh...I understand the significance of our navy simply stationing certain vessels in the adjacent areas, however, my question was one of if we remained neutral, as in, truly neutral.  No aid,  the ship is offering aid via deterrence and or with the potential possibility of more if push came to shove, so to speak. 

Truly neutral, imho, that would entail said ships leaving said area, we fuck off, and pretend as hard as possible as if nothing is happening until something makes that completely impossible.  Like the good old days?  Idk.

It was just a hypothetical.  Purely out of curiosity. :bongload:




Yeah, I got you, and I hear that.

Just like California would never secede from the US, but it's interesting to think about.

I still think it's interesting, and worth keeping in mind, that a LOT of US intervention and foreign policy is motivated or triggered by the presence of US citizens in a country. In the case of the Caribbean and Latin America, it's usually business interests. In the case of Israel, it's a TON of dual citizens.

That's obviously not the only factor, but it definitely contributes to the US treating Israel like the Whatever-th state-or-territory we'd be on after counting all of them.

Hell, "there are Americans there we need to save" is how we ended up with Texas.


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Edited by B Traven (10/13/23 11:09 AM)


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