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Offlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28473313 - 09/18/23 04:36 AM (4 months, 8 days ago)

I wonder also, if one finds a liberating mantra, who placed it there, and would they also find that one?


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28473354 - 09/18/23 06:04 AM (4 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
Gangaji is/was a disciple of Ramana through Papaji. So Tadatmananda is talking about Ramana, who was very unique in needing no practice. Actually as a boy he sat in some lower nook of a temple for years establishing his vision, but had no teacher physically on earth that we know of. Some say his was Shiva in the subtle.

Anyways the criticism is that the Ramana kind of Advaita, and those of Papaji and Gangaji, and I don't want to assume for them too much, but it pays no heed to formal preliminairies, preparations, but just essentially be in the I AM.

As Tadatmananda may be correct in perspective, people are not like Ramana that didn't need instruction and practice in preparation. I'm in his camp in that the sadhanas are crucial gifts to the world. At the same time, no-practice, I AM, is sadhana, imo, and purification occurs nevertheless.



Thanks for the background info. I finally watched the video and have to agree with Ramana. But I feel like this is more of an issue of personal opinion in my view, and that it says something about the person or people promoting this way is the only correct way. Authority is something that prevents further learning, and doesn't contain the freedom needed.
Quote:

If anyone tells you fire is light,
Pay no attention.
When two thieves meet they need no introduction:
They recognize each other without question.



There are plenty of sudden paths that promote instant awakening over years of preparation and practices. Besides everybody walks his own path and there's not really a fixed way of progression, or starting point (this has been pointed towards in a lot of teachings). People have awakened because of a variety of reasons, not only through spiritual practices, preliminaries and preparing. And there's really no shortcut since you're walking the path of life, it can't be forced in any way, and will happen wether you've done preparation or not. When it does it will definitely shift the consciousness of the person, that's why it's also written, if the mind has shifted, the body will follow. However in terms of, this would be handy knowledge and practice for the person (beforehand), I agree with that sadhanas are crucial gifts, and every school should have a teacher that points to the moon. And I also agree with that there are a lot of fake gurus with empty promises.

The sudden path explained in Zen:
Hui Hai - The Zen teaching of Hui Hai on sudden illumination;
Quote:

Q: What method must we practise in order to attain deliverance?
A: It can be attained only through a sudden Illumination.
Q: What is a sudden Illumination?
A: Sudden means ridding yourselves of deluded thoughts instantaneously. Illumination means the realization that Illumination is not something to be attained.
Q: From where do we start this practice?
A: You must start from the very root.
Q: And what is that?
A: Mind is the root.
Q: How can this be known?
A: The Lankavatara Sutra says: ‘When mental processes (hsin) arise, then do all dharmas (phenomena) spring forth; and when mental processes cease, then do all dharmas cease likewise.’ The Vimalakirti Sutra says: “Those desiring to attain the Pure Land must first purify their own minds, for the purification of mind is the purity of the Buddha-Land.’ The Sutra of the Doctrine Bequeathed by the Buddha says: ‘Just by mind-control, all things become possible to us.’ In another sutra it says: ‘Sages seek from mind, not from the Buddha; fools seek from the Buddha instead of seeking from mind. Wise men regulate their minds rather than their persons; fools regulate their persons rather than their minds.’ The Sutra of the Names of the Buddha states: ‘Evil springs forth from the mind, and by the mind is evil overcome.’ Thus we may know that all good and evil proceed from our minds and that mind is therefore the root. If you desire deliverance, you must first know all about the root. Unless you can penetrate to this truth, all your efforts will be vain; for, while you are still seeking something from forms external to yourselves, you will never attain. The Dhyanaparamita Sutra says: ‘For as long as you direct your search to the forms around you, you will not attain your goal even after aeon upon aeon; whereas, by contemplating your inner awareness, you can achieve  Buddhahood in a single flash of thought.’
Q: By what means is the root-practice to be performed? 
A: Only by sitting in meditation, for it is accomplished  by dhyana (ch‘an) and samadhi (ting). The Dhyana-paramita Sutra says: ‘Dhyana and samadhi are essential to, the search for the sacred knowledge of the Buddhas; for, without these, the thoughts remain in tumult and the roots of goodness suffer damage.’
Q: Please describe dhyana and samadhi.
A: When wrong thinking ceases, that is dhyana; when you sit contemplating your original nature, that is samadhi, for indeed that original nature is your eternal mind. By samadhi, you withdraw your minds from their surroundings, thereby making them impervious to the eight winds, that is to say, impervious to gain and loss, calumny and eulogy, praise and blame, sorrow and joy. By concentrating in this way, even ordinary people may enter the state of Buddhahood. How can that be so? The Sutra of the Bodhisattva-Precepts says: “All beings who observe the Buddha-Precept thereby enter Buddhahood.’ Other names for this are deliverance, gaining the further shore, transcending the six states of mortal being,’ o’erleaping the three worlds, or becoming a mighty Bodhisattva, an omnipotent Sage, a Conqueror!
Q: Whereon should the mind settle and dwell? 
A: It should settle upon non-dwelling and there dwell. 
Q: What is this non-dwelling? 
A: It means not allowing the mind to dwell upon anything whatsoever. 
Q: And what is the meaning of that? 
A: Dwelling upon nothing means that the mind is not  fixed upon good or evil, being or non-being, inside or outside or somewhere between the two, void or non-void, concentration or distraction. This dwelling upon nothing is the state in which it should dwell; those who attain to it are said to have non-dwelling minds—in other words, they have  Buddha-Minds!



Can't get anymore direct than this:

Bhagavad Gita;
Quote:

I am the goal, the root, the witness,
home and refuge, dearest friend,
creation and annihilation,
everlasting seed and treasure.
. . .
All your thoughts, all your actions,
all your fears and disappointments,
offer them to me, clear-hearted;
know them all as passing visions.



Well, maybe this:

Isaiah 45:7;
Quote:

I am he that prepared light, and formed darkness; who make peace, and create evil; I am the Lord God, that does all these things.




Quote:

syncro said:Do you have a clickable source of this? I wonder where would attachment and aversion be but in the power of the three bonds? Do the three bonds mean the granthis, psychic knots, or something else?



That was an excerpt from the book 'Tantra Illuminated: The Philosophy, History, and Practice of a Timeless Tradition', that's solely on the history and path of Kashmir Shaivism, it continues to say for that, further spiritual practices are necessary, and that it has been observed that with the initiation it results in quelling of attachments and aversions, and sums it up in;
Quote:

Therefore, purification of the self—destroying the bonds of āṇava and so on and bestowing capability for the manifestation of Divinity—is achieved through initiation, which is accomplished following the Descent of Power [śaktipāta], which is inferred by observing the disciple’s devotion, their spontaneous desire to approach a guru, and so on. This is taught in the sacred tradition with this verse:

“The essence of insight [into one’s true nature] is given; the saṃskāras of being a bound soul are destroyed. Therefore, [because] it involves giving [dī] and destroying [kṣi], it is known in our system as dīkṣā.”



From quickly glossing over it unfortunately no mention of knots or granthis, so your guess is as good as mine. Anyway, Abhinavaguptas writings are highly recommended reading material on Kashmir Shaivism, and can be found online, it also supports, and explains the sudden path (not saying it doesn't have it's own practices, including sadhana) as follows:

Abhinavagupta - Tantrasāra - The Modes of Realization (chapter 1);
Quote:

When Śiva (i.e. the Light of Consciousness), in his independent freedom, causes himself to appear in a contracted form, we call him ‘the individual self’ (aṇu). And through that same freedom he again illuminates/manifests his real being (svātman) so that his nature as Śiva—the unbounded Light of Consciousness—shines forth.

When that occurs, he may illuminate his real being without needing any method to do so or with such methods—again as an expression of his independent freedom.




Abhinavagupta - Tantrasāra - The Pathless Path - how realization can happen with almost no effort or method (chapter 2);
Quote:

This very Highest Divinity, the self-manifest Light of Consciousness, is always already my very own Being—when that is the case, what could any method of practice achieve? Not the attainment of my true nature, because that is eternally present; not making that nature apparent, because it is constantly illuminating itself; not the removal of veils, because no “veil” whatsoever exists; not the penetration into That, because nothing other than It exists to enter It. What method can there be here, when there is an impossibility of anything separate from That?

Therefore, this whole existence is One reality: Consciousness alone—unbroken by time, uncircumscribed by space, unclouded by attributes, unconfined by forms, unexpressed by words, and unaccounted for by the ordinary means of knowledge. For it is the cause, through its own Will alone, by which all these sources of limitation—from time to the ordinary means of knowledge—attain their own natures. This Reality is free and independent, a mass of bliss, and That alone am I; thus the entire universe is held as a reflection within me.



Anyway, interesting discussion nonetheless!


Edited by spinvis (09/18/23 06:52 AM)


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Offlinesyncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] * 1
    #28473482 - 09/18/23 09:01 AM (4 months, 8 days ago)

If the number one point is suffering and its relief, the thing about the message of no practice is it needs to be practiced. It seems it can be a parallel to being saved by a messiah through confession and acceptance, but not working toward improvement.

We can get sudden insight from the message, but then it is that nothing needs to be done while we carry a mountain of karma and conditioning, that these are the absolute notwithstanding. Of course the no practice addresses, works to dissolve that as good as anything, but no practice needs to be practiced, in mindfulness, witness, being, sitting, serving, but it is a proactivity for a suffering, conditioned being.


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28473525 - 09/18/23 09:40 AM (4 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
:awemazing::lol:

The CC wielding the awemazing orb as mandala vajra in luminous spontaneity.

Actually I didn't know there were vajra mandalas.







These beautiful mandalas reminded me of something I read, but forgot where. With regards to the wheel of dharma, every spoke on the wheel is a different path, teaching, individual. Below is from wiki:

Buddhaghosa
Quote:

“It is the beginningless round of rebirths that is called the ’Wheel of the round of rebirths’ (saṃsāracakka). Ignorance (avijjā) is its hub (or nave) because it is its root. Ageing-and-death (jarā-maraṇa) is its rim (or felly) because it terminates it. The remaining ten links [of Dependent Origination] are its spokes [i.e. saṅkhāra up to the process of becoming, bhava].”





Bhagavad Gita - verses 14, 15 and 16, of Chapter 3;
Quote:

"From food, the beings are born; from rain, food is produced; rain proceeds from sacrifice (yagnya); yagnya arises out of action; know that from Brahma, action proceeds; Brahma is born of Brahman, the eternal Paramatman. The one who does not follow the wheel thus revolving, leads a sinful, vain life, rejoicing in the senses."




Anyway, it's also in relation with the Trishula (or the Three Jewels from Buddhism), and Mahadevi, and Parashakti within Kashmir Shaivism for example.


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28473549 - 09/18/23 09:54 AM (4 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
Of course the no practice addresses, works to dissolve that as good as anything, but no practice needs to be practiced, in mindfulness, witness, being, sitting, serving, but it is a proactivity for a suffering, conditioned being.



Yes! Awesome summary! Somehow I'm definitely in the corner of non, and it can only be described by what it's not. :lol:


Edited by spinvis (09/18/23 09:55 AM)


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Offlinesyncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] * 1
    #28474237 - 09/18/23 08:35 PM (4 months, 7 days ago)

Wait a second, that's not what I meant! :crankey:

:lol: I said no practice needs to be practiced, but I meant no practice needs to be practiced.


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Offlinesyncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] * 1
    #28474570 - 09/19/23 05:18 AM (4 months, 7 days ago)

"know that from Brahma, action proceeds"

Ramana says this, they all say this pretty much, we are not the doer. I don't mean this as an argument against free will. But what  a mindfulness in moment to moment to consider who is the doer.


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28474708 - 09/19/23 08:51 AM (4 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
Wait a second, that's not what I meant! :crankey:

:lol: I said no practice needs to be practiced, but I meant no practice needs to be practiced.



:lol:

Quote:

syncro said:
"know that from Brahma, action proceeds"

Ramana says this, they all say this pretty much, we are not the doer. I don't mean this as an argument against free will. But what  a mindfulness in moment to moment to consider who is the doer.



I really love the approach of Krishnamurti:

Jiddu Krishnamurti;
Quote:

Is it not necessary to understand the thinker, the doer, the actor, since his thought, his deed, his action cannot be separated from him? The thinker is the thought, the doer is the deed, the actor is the action. In his thought the thinker is revealed. The thinker through his actions creates his own misery, his ignorance, his strife. The painter paints this picture of passing happiness, of sorrow, of confusion. Why does he produce this painful picture? Surely, this is the problem that must be studied, understood and dissolved. Why does the thinker think his thoughts, from which flow all his actions? This is the rock wall against which you have been battering your head, is it not? If the thinker can transcend himself, then all conflict will cease: and to transcend he must know himself. What is known and understood, what is fulfilled and completed does not repeat itself. It is repetition that gives continuity to the thinker.



And I also love what Maharshi himself said, very Zen like in it's approach:

Talks with Ramana Maharshi 115;
Quote:

As long as you feel yourself the doer of action so long you are bound to enjoy its fruits. But if you find out whose karma it is, you will see that you are not the doer. Then you will be free. Action without motive does not bind.




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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] * 1
    #28474812 - 09/19/23 10:31 AM (4 months, 7 days ago)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JoRwXMLsVis
Quote:

History of Yoga, the Path of my Ancestors is a 6000 year journey into origin, evolution & development of yoga. The story explores the elements of Yoga in Harappa Civilization, Veda, Jainism, Buddhism, Sufism, Hath-Yogic practices of medieval times & other peripheral doctrines. The film ends in 19th century where modern science acknowledges the potential of yoga in a new light. 




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Offlinesyncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] * 1
    #28474836 - 09/19/23 10:51 AM (4 months, 7 days ago)

Quote:

“O my devotees! On this path of supreme Bhairava, whoever has taken a step with pure desire, no matter if that desire is slow or intense; it does not matter if he is a Brahmin, if he is a sweeper, if he is an outcast, or if he is anybody; he becomes one with Para-bhairava.”



Abhinavagupta

This is why I thought it somewhat of a contradiction in the statements that the liberating mantra alone is incomplete while understanding that initiation is required. "A step with pure desire" is inclusive.

In other words, initiation happens from near or far, in any circumstance, by any method chosen by the teacher.


Edited by syncro (09/19/23 10:55 AM)


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28474897 - 09/19/23 11:30 AM (4 months, 7 days ago)

Yes that's correct. It's called Shaktipata.


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Offlinesyncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] * 2
    #28475052 - 09/19/23 02:15 PM (4 months, 7 days ago)

Watching video. Recommended!

At 127:10 there is an enactment of the time when Ramakrishna received teachings and had engagement with Totapuri, a strict Advaitan. With much struggle Ramakrishna was said to have finally surpassed his vision of the mother in Kali and entered samadhi for three days.

What was not said is that Totapuri exclaimed how Ramakrishna could have done what took him decades to do. Iirc, in the Gospel of Shri Ramakrishna and other books, the implication was that Ramakrishna turned out to be the teacher of Totapuri, and that bhakti for divine form was not seen as something less as was shown in the relationship. Totapuri had a custom of only remaining in one place for three days, yet stayed with Ramakrishna for 11 months.

This is not to discount Advaita or comment on time taken in any path, but to rid notions of superiority of paths.

Quote:

From Sri Ramakrishna Totapuri had to learn the significance of Kali, the Great Fact of the relative world, and of maya, Her indescribable Power.

One day, when guru and disciple were engaged in an animated discussion about Vedanta, a servant of the temple garden came there and took a coal from the sacred fire that had been lighted by the great ascetic. He wanted it to light his tobacco. Totapuri flew into a rage and was about to beat the man. Sri Ramakrishna rocked with laughter. “What a shame!” he cried. “You are explaining to me the reality of Brahman and the illusoriness of the world; yet now you have so far forgotten yourself as to be about to beat a man in a fit of passion. The power of maya is indeed inscrutable!” Totapuri was embarrassed.

About this time Totapuri was suddenly laid up with a severe attack of dysentery. On account of this miserable illness he found it impossible to meditate. One night the pain became excruciating. He could no longer concentrate on Brahman. The body stood in the way. He became incensed with its demands. A free soul, he did not at all care for the body. So he determined to drown it in the Ganges. Thereupon he walked into the river. But, lo! He walks to the other bank.” (This version of the incident is taken from the biography of Sri Ramakrishna by Swami Saradananda, one of the Master’s direct disciples.) Is there not enough water in the Ganges? Standing dumbfounded on the other bank he looks back across the water. The trees, the temples, the houses, are silhouetted against the sky. Suddenly, in one dazzling moment, he sees on all sides the presence of the Divine Mother. She is in everything; She is everything. She is in the water; She is on land. She is the body; She is the mind. She is pain; She is comfort. She is knowledge; She is ignorance. She is life; She is death. She is everything that one sees, hears, or imagines. She turns “yea” into “nay”, and “nay” into “yea”. Without Her grace no embodied being can go beyond Her realm. Man has no free will. He is not even free to die. Yet, again, beyond the body and mind She resides in Her Transcendental, Absolute aspect. She is the Brahman that Totapuri had been worshipping all his life.

Totapuri returned to Dakshineswar and spent the remaining hours of the night meditating on the Divine Mother. In the morning he went to the Kali temple with Sri Ramakrishna and prostrated himself before the image of the Mother. He now realised why he had spent eleven months at Dakshineswar. Bidding farewell to the disciple, he continued on his way, enlightened.

Sri Ramakrishna later described the significance of Totapuri’s lessons:

“When I think of the Supreme Being as inactive — neither creating nor preserving nor destroying —, I call Him Brahman or Purusha, the Impersonal God. When I think of Him as active — creating, preserving, and destroying —, I call Him Sakti or Maya or Prakriti, the Personal God. But the distinction between them does not mean a difference. The Personal and the Impersonal are the same thing, like milk and its whiteness, the diamond and its lustre, the snake and its wriggling motion. It is impossible to conceive of the one without the other. The Divine Mother and Brahman are one."





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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28475194 - 09/19/23 04:14 PM (4 months, 6 days ago)

Thanks for that beautiful piece of text. That could've made it even better.


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] * 1
    #28477315 - 09/21/23 03:37 AM (4 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

spinvis said:
Buddhaghosa
Quote:

It is the beginningless round of rebirths that is called the ’Wheel of the round of rebirths’ (saṃsāracakka). Ignorance (avijjā) is its hub (or nave) because it is its root. Ageing-and-death (jarā-maraṇa) is its rim (or felly) because it terminates it. The remaining ten links [of Dependent Origination] are its spokes [i.e. saṅkhāra up to the process of becoming, bhava].




Bhagavad Gita - verses 14, 15 and 16, of Chapter 3;
Quote:

From food, the beings are born; from rain, food is produced; rain proceeds from sacrifice (yagnya); yagnya arises out of action; know that from Brahma, action proceeds; Brahma is born of Brahman, the eternal Paramatman. The one who does not follow the wheel thus revolving, leads a sinful, vain life, rejoicing in the senses.






Found some additional text from the Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad. This is part of Jñāna Yoga.

Patrick Olivelle - The Early Upanisads Annotated text and translation - Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad - p. 73;
Quote:

This self (atman) is the honey of all beings, and all beings are the honey of this self. The radiant and immortal person in the self and the radiant and immortal person connected with the body (atman)—they are both one's self. It is the immortal; it is brahman; it is the Whole. This very self (atman) is the lord and king of all beings. As all the spokes are fastened to the hub and the rim of a wheel, so to one's self (atman) are fastened all beings, all the gods, all the worlds, all the breaths, and all these bodies (atman).



Random excerpts:

Bhagavad Gita 4.38;
Quote:

Truly, there is nothing here as pure as knowledge. In time, he who is perfected in yoga finds that in his own Atman.




Patrick Olivelle - The Early Upanisads Annotated text and translation - Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad - p. 121;
Quote:

Clearly, this self is brahman—this self that is made of perception, made of mind, made of sight, made of breath, made of hearing, made of earth, made of water, made of wind, made of space, made of light and the lightless, made of desire and the desireless, made of anger and the angerless, made of the righteous and the unrighteous; this self that is made of everything.




Patrick Olivelle - The Early Upanisads Annotated text and translation - Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad - p. 69;
Quote:

You see, Maitreyi—it is one's self (atman) which one should see and hear, and on which one should reflect and concentrate. For by seeing and hearing one's self, and by reflecting and concentrating on one's self, one gains the knowledge of this whole world.




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Offlinesyncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] * 1
    #28477644 - 09/21/23 01:04 PM (4 months, 5 days ago)



Sri Ram, that which removes concern, the fear, dread of life.


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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28478202 - 09/21/23 10:48 PM (4 months, 4 days ago)

What do you guys think about the concept called 'in the clear' from scientology?


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Offlinesyncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #28478358 - 09/22/23 06:28 AM (4 months, 4 days ago)

"Scientology followers are given the status of Clear when a person is deemed to be free of the influence of engrams – supposed unwanted emotions or painful traumas which Scientology claims are not readily available to the conscious mind."

Engrams - 'An engram, as used in Dianetics and Scientology, is a detailed mental image or memory of a traumatic event from the past that occurred when an individual was partially or fully unconscious. It is considered to be pseudoscientific[1][2] and is different from the meaning of "engram" in cognitive psychology.[3] According to Dianetics and Scientology, from conception onwards, whenever something painful happens while the "analytic mind" is unconscious, engrams are supposedly being recorded and stored in an area of the mind Scientology calls the "reactive mind".'


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro]
    #28478395 - 09/22/23 07:17 AM (4 months, 4 days ago)

Who judges that which is unwanted? And what do they do with it after?


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Offlinesyncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] * 1
    #28478415 - 09/22/23 07:45 AM (4 months, 4 days ago)

That which believes it can be harmed, and continues it. Or, there could be the insight which sees through it and forgives, easily said.


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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro]
    #28478461 - 09/22/23 08:42 AM (4 months, 4 days ago)

Beautiful answers! Is that what the scientologist do?


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