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OfflineQuicksilverdream
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Completely stumped on how to trigger primordia formation in King Trumpets and Black Kings
    #28474081 - 09/18/23 06:50 PM (4 months, 7 days ago)

Hey all, I have a seemingly simple issue that's nonetheless been stumping me for a while with growing King Trumpets and Black Kings. My main question is just:

What the hell is the trick to getting King Trumpets and Black Kings to pin consistently in the fruiting environment? What should the mycelial surface of the block ideally look like leading up to primordia formation? From what I know I'd guess that a scattering of very fine water droplets is ideal for pinning but I honestly have no idea.  

For context, although I am able to get somewhat regular yields from these 2 species, it's still quite variable and I lose a decent amount of blocks every week to mold that forms on the exposed substrate surface. Even if they don't succumb fully to mold, a lot of blocks will dry out heavily on top and get somewhat moldy while fruiting and pins will have to grow to maturity amidst the contamination.


I fruit pretty soon after a block hits 100% colonized and I cut the entire top of the bag off pretty close to the top of the substrate when I put it in the tent. I also sometimes scratch the surface to disrupt it a bit but I'm not sure if that really does anything.

The fruiting tent is generally around 68F, CO2<600ppm, 85-95% RH.

I've tried only cutting a small corner of the bag when I put it in the tent in the hopes that it would prevent the mycelium from drying out too much and become tough and matted, but when I tried this the mycelium just got really puffy and thick and didn't pin very well.



There's a few thoughts I've considered already that may be in the right direction:

1) My fruiting conditions aren't perfect for growing these 2 species and I mostly just need to get the temp lower to get better results
    - This is the most sensible, easy explanation to me currently since 68F-ish seems to pretty much be right on the threshold for acceptable temps for Kings and so it's leading to poor performance.

2) My humidity is too low and is making the mycelium dry out
    - This one doesn't really make sense to me because the humidity in the rest of the tent seems just fine but the tops of the blocks undeniably do get quite dry while fruiting and I'm really just not sure what to do about that because when I've tried to prevent this by keeping most of the bag still attached when I put it into fruiting, the mycelium gets super thick and fluffy.

3) I'm fruiting too quickly after colonization finishes, and consequently the blocks are exposed to the fruiting environment before they're completely ready and have to spend more time than necessary "catching up" in a sense in the fruiting tent to get to the point where they can actually produce pins.
    - This kind of makes sense as well since I've heard that Kings benefit from sitting for several days after reaching 100% colonization, but I don't know how much of an impact that makes.

4) My fruiting environment is too dirty to avoid some level of mold contamination when top fruiting.
      - This may be partially true but I really can't do anything about this right now so it's kind of useless to focus on this until I can actually do something about it.

5) CO2 level of ~600ppm is too low for these species
    - This kind of makes sense as well because it seems like many people grow Kings in a fairly high CO2 environment compared to oysters but I don't know if that implies that they won't grow very well in a low CO2 environment


These're pretty much my main theories and I'm sure the truth overlaps with them all to some degree but I'm really just at a loss for how to move forward so any ideas would be appreciated, thanks!


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Offlinedeadmandave
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Re: Completely stumped on how to trigger primordia formation in King Trumpets and Black Kings [Re: Quicksilverdream]
    #28474437 - 09/18/23 10:48 PM (4 months, 7 days ago)

for black kings wait 3 weeks after full colonization before introducing to fruiting.

Blocks will spend less time waiting and drying out inside the fc.

Don't cut the top of a black king bag. When fruiting, pop bubble, flip the bag upside down and cut a large -X- in the bag. This will also keep it from drying out.

Wait for kings to pin in the bag, cut a couple air holes to let the fruits develop and then you can cut the top of the bag off. I've never seen a benefit to scratching the surface.

Follow Hummus's tek for kings:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27187063#27187063

Clean your fc once a week, that is enough.


Edited by deadmandave (09/18/23 10:58 PM)


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OfflineQuicksilverdream
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Re: Completely stumped on how to trigger primordia formation in King Trumpets and Black Kings [Re: deadmandave]
    #28474486 - 09/19/23 12:43 AM (4 months, 7 days ago)

Damn, this is all killer info thank you Dave!

3 weeks is a lot longer than I would've thought--I bet if I looked back at my block data there'd probably be somewhat of an inverse correlation between incubation length and fruiting length.

Do you know what the mycelium is up to during those 3 weeks after full colonization/before fruiting? This particular method/technique within mushroom cult is one that I don't have a good grasp on at all. My uninformed and unscientific guess is that the mycelium basically needs extra time to thoroughly break down the substrate, moreso than other oysters, before it's ready to produce the final fruiting bodies.

But that still leaves me with a bunch of questions around what is exactly happening during that intermediary period, and why it's so necessary for some species and not so much for others. I should probably just do some research lol I'm sure there's papers about this.

And just to clarify, do you make the X cut on the very bottom of the bag after flipping it or do you just flip it upside down than make a X cut somewhere else like on the side?

I've side fruited black kings before and it turns out okay sometimes but I'm really shooting for a thicker more chunky final fruitbody that is closer to a standard King Trumpet as opposed to something like a blue oyster.


How long does it generally take you to see pins in the bag after inoculation? And then how long does it take from fruiting to harvest?

I've seen really fast colonization rates with my Black King, they're consistently fully colonized in just about a week usually but once I put them in the fruiting tent it'll take them at least 3 weeks to develop any pins.


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Offlinedeadmandave
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Re: Completely stumped on how to trigger primordia formation in King Trumpets and Black Kings [Re: Quicksilverdream]
    #28480488 - 09/23/23 10:55 PM (4 months, 2 days ago)

Not sure what the mushrooms up to during incubation. Likely it's breaking down substrate into easier to use compounds and molecules but idk. Doesn't seem necessary for blues or lions mane.

Here's what the cut looks like right before fruiting ( tug a couple of the flaps up to expose the sub to the fc )


Some bags starting to pin after 7 days in the fc:



If you like stems you can remove most of the pins and just leave a couple. All the energy will go into the remaining mushrooms and produce a couple large shrooms.

Here's a finished block:


Edited by deadmandave (09/23/23 10:57 PM)


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