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Offlineclaudiobar
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Laminar flow hood in Europe, better fan Vs double size?
    #28447139 - 08/26/23 08:36 AM (4 months, 30 days ago)

Hi all! I hope you're doing well and thanks in advance for any opt help.

I've been searching on the subject through this and other forums to no avail, so:

The thing is, I'm thinking of buying a LFH for my projects, but the options are far more limited here in Europe. I boiled it down to the two models you'll see in the pictures I'll add when I figure out how to do so. Smaller one is half the size and slightly more expensive, but I guess that's due to the squirrel fan blower. Which are in theory the best kind for the laminar flow?

All in all, between these two, which do you think would work better for agar and transfers, the better (if so) fan, or the bigger sized one?


Needless to say, if you know of a recommended vendor or something, sharing it would be appreciated.

Thanks to all!!
Clau



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Invisiblecovertjoy

Registered: 07/09/23
Posts: 272
Re: Laminar flow hood in Europe, better fan Vs double size? [Re: claudiobar] * 1
    #28447245 - 08/26/23 10:28 AM (4 months, 30 days ago)

The squirrel fan (centrifugal fan) is designed to blow air constantly through a high resistance (known as static pressure) as opposed to an axial fan which is designed to move large amounts of air but not through high resistance. The centrifugal fan is certainly the better suited fan for creating a laminar flow through a HEPA filter. Can the axial fan do the job if correctly matched to the filter? Maybe? I've never used one with an axial fan so I don't know.



The formula is basically to get the best filter you can (H13 or ideally H14, designed and rated for laminar flow and as large as possible) and then make sure the fan is adequately matched to it's requirements.

What sort of budget are you working with?

I had a fun time building mine. The blower was shipped from Germany, the filter is from the UK but you will find them across Europe.


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Offlineclaudiobar
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Re: Laminar flow hood in Europe, better fan Vs double size? [Re: covertjoy]
    #28447384 - 08/26/23 12:33 PM (4 months, 30 days ago)

Hi! And thanks so much for your answer, it certainly helps me trying to get to a decision. If I end up buying one of these, it's gonna be the smaller but with squirrel cage then, I guess. (750euros almost)

(The pictures were of the two actual units I was considering)

I also considered building one myself but given that I'd need to buy some tools beside the time invested, and that I'm not that much handy, I ended up thinking of buying one pre-made. That being said, I only found a blueprint for one that was much bigger than what I could have, if someone knows of a 60x60 or 30x60 cms blueprint to be found online, please share :smile:

Thanks once again for the help, kind regards!


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Invisiblecovertjoy

Registered: 07/09/23
Posts: 272
Re: Laminar flow hood in Europe, better fan Vs double size? [Re: claudiobar] * 1
    #28447432 - 08/26/23 01:16 PM (4 months, 30 days ago)

You can probably build something pretty nice for 750 EUR and if you do choose to go down that route I can help you with selecting a filter, matching a fan, blue prints and wiring. I just got done with this project a few weeks ago so it's still fresh.

To give you some context I'm not particularly handy either. I got all the wood pre-cut for me and didn't use any special joints. I used 12mm thick plywood with some special spax screws and was able to screw directly into the side of the wood without splitting it. Actual wood craftsmen would scoff I'm sure but I couldn't be happier with it. I just applied wood glue and put the pieces together, drilled 2.5mm pilot holes, used a countersink, and then put the screws in with the drill.

I think the tools you would need are:

  • Electric drill/screwdriver (it's the must have tool anyway imo)
  • Jigsaw (for cutting the hole in the roof for the fan)
  • 2.5mm drill bit, countersink drill bit, screwdriver drill bit
  • Spax screws
  • Wood glue
  • 4 * Right angle positioning clamps
  • 2 * Sash Clamps
  • Some bolts, O-rings and silicone to attach the blower
  • Some other small things probably


And then the parts:

  • HEPA filter
  • Fan blower
  • Wood panels (12mm hardwood ply)
  • Some wire and an empty plug socket (my fan needed wiring, turns out it was easy)


To give you an idea, mine is 36" x 24" and the filter was about £320. Expensive but I wanted the best rated one and the large size and decided to go for it. The blower was about £160 plus I had to pay £40 import tax from Germany, the pre-cut wood was £100 something including delivery. All in all probably would come to about what your budget is. Not including the tools though. It's really only the drill, jigsaw and the clamps that might cost something significant. Maybe you could borrow some or get some second hand? A smaller filter would bring the cost down a lot.



If you're going for the ready made options, I guess it is a lot easier and lower risk, but you might have to compromise on size and won't get the tools and skills to keep afterwards. I think I would go for the centrifugal fan one too, the axial fans just aren't designed for this type of application therefore I don't trust them.

What type of work are you planning to do with it? Pouring a lot of petridishes? If not so many at a time then maybe the smaller size would be suitable for you.


--------------------


Edited by covertjoy (08/26/23 02:04 PM)


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Offlineclaudiobar
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Re: Laminar flow hood in Europe, better fan Vs double size? [Re: covertjoy]
    #28448010 - 08/27/23 04:29 AM (4 months, 29 days ago)

Hi there again :smile:

Hey... I have no words to thank you enough for your kindness and interest in helping out a stranger.. Kudos! :smile:

I take your advice in every regard: if I buy one pre-made it'll be the squirrel cage 24x12 (the linear fan one was 24 X 24 but I think for what I'll be doing I'll have enough either way); I'm gonna think it over a bit and if I dare to build one, I'll try to adapt a blueprint to my ideal measurements (24x18 I guess)

I might send you a message in such case, if you don't mind, to ask about that blueprint you used

Once again thanks so much for your help and opinion, and kind regards!!


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Invisiblecovertjoy

Registered: 07/09/23
Posts: 272
Re: Laminar flow hood in Europe, better fan Vs double size? [Re: claudiobar]
    #28448211 - 08/27/23 09:15 AM (4 months, 29 days ago)

No worries! :smile:


--------------------


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Offlinephenyl
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Re: Laminar flow hood in Europe, better fan Vs double size? [Re: covertjoy]
    #28448215 - 08/27/23 09:20 AM (4 months, 29 days ago)

Laminar flow is laminar flow. The blower is just a design decision. Get the largest you can afford.


--------------------
The fool who persists in his folly will become wise.


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Offlineclaudiobar
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Re: Laminar flow hood in Europe, better fan Vs double size? [Re: phenyl]
    #28448750 - 08/27/23 03:51 PM (4 months, 29 days ago)

Thanks for your answer too! :smile:


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Offlinedeadmandave
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Re: Laminar flow hood in Europe, better fan Vs double size? [Re: claudiobar]
    #28451132 - 08/29/23 12:50 PM (4 months, 27 days ago)

I agree that squirrel cage blowers are ideal and axial fans are not the right fan on paper. That being said lots of people have used ffu's (that use axial fans) with  great success.

Building a flowhood is fun and you might get a bigger size for the same cost.

The flowhood you've posted with the squirrel cage blower looks really nice, tho the blower looks huge and there's no prefilter. I use the same size (12"x24") to inoculate 30+ 10lb bags per week. The shortness struggles doing bag to bag grains but everything else is fine.


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Offlineclaudiobar
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Re: Laminar flow hood in Europe, better fan Vs double size? [Re: covertjoy]
    #28451976 - 08/30/23 03:45 AM (4 months, 26 days ago)

( Thanks for your input too Dave! :wink: )

And I'm gonna take covertjoy's advise and try to build my own hood.

One question to begin with, I've read in the forum's, and seemingly this matches RR's advise too, that the filter should be a minimum of 6" deep.

Thing is, most of the filters I can find around are 2.75" tops. Should I chalk that up to filters becoming more efficient lately (and as such I should assume that these "shallow" filters could work as long as the calculations on CFM and pressure are ok) or should I keep searching for 6" filters?

Have a great day you all


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Invisiblecovertjoy

Registered: 07/09/23
Posts: 272
Re: Laminar flow hood in Europe, better fan Vs double size? [Re: claudiobar]
    #28451981 - 08/30/23 04:11 AM (4 months, 26 days ago)

Quote:

claudiobar said:
( Thanks for your input too Dave! :wink: )

And I'm gonna take covertjoy's advise and try to build my own hood.

One question to begin with, I've read in the forum's, and seemingly this matches RR's advise too, that the filter should be a minimum of 6" deep.

Thing is, most of the filters I can find around are 2.75" tops. Should I chalk that up to filters becoming more efficient lately (and as such I should assume that these "shallow" filters could work as long as the calculations on CFM and pressure are ok) or should I keep searching for 6" filters?

Have a great day you all




I wouldn't worry too much about the depth. If the filter is designed to create laminar flow and is rated as H14 or H13 then the manufacturer has done the work for you in determining the required depth. Just make sure that it is a laminar flow filter and has an adequate rating.


--------------------


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Offlineclaudiobar
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Re: Laminar flow hood in Europe, better fan Vs double size? [Re: covertjoy]
    #28457366 - 09/03/23 04:11 PM (4 months, 22 days ago)

Hi there again :smile:

A quick question, knowing that I'd better start with the filter: I finally found some vendors that sell 12" x 24" x 6" filters. They all list a CFM rating of about 176,6, should that be good?

Where I find different options is when it comes to inches water gauge. I'm seeing options with these values:

0,241119
0,281305
0,401865

could you tell me which you think should be better for this purpose?
I think/hope that once I get the HEPA I'd be able to match the blower myself.

Thanks in any case and kind regards :smile:


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Invisiblecovertjoy

Registered: 07/09/23
Posts: 272
Re: Laminar flow hood in Europe, better fan Vs double size? [Re: claudiobar]
    #28457413 - 09/03/23 04:41 PM (4 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

claudiobar said:
Hi there again :smile:

A quick question, knowing that I'd better start with the filter: I finally found some vendors that sell 12" x 24" x 6" filters. They all list a CFM rating of about 176,6, should that be good?

Where I find different options is when it comes to inches water gauge. I'm seeing options with these values:

0,241119
0,281305
0,401865

could you tell me which you think should be better for this purpose?
I think/hope that once I get the HEPA I'd be able to match the blower myself.

Thanks in any case and kind regards :smile:




Hey,

Inches water gauge is the pressure drop/static pressure of the filter, basically how much resistance the filter puts up against the air flow. Sometimes inches water is the unit and sometimes Pascals (Pa). 1 inch of water is 248,84 Pascals.

So if they all recommend a CFM (air flow rate which can also be measured in m3/hr) of 176,6 that means your blower needs to be able to output 176,6 CFM at [0,241119 / 0,281305  / 0,401865] inches water resistance. That last part will be key when selecting your blower.

Another consideration is that the filter becomes less efficient over time and eventually needs replacing. If you are given initial pressure drop and final pressure drop then use the final pressure drop to ensure your blower keep outputing enough air for the entire lifespan of the filter. As an example, my filter has an initial pressure drop of 120 Pa and a final pressure drop of 220 Pa.

I would guess that the filter that has the highest static pressure is the filter which is doing the most filtering but it could also just be the least efficient. Are these filters rated as H13/H14 and advertised as laminar flow?


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Offlineclaudiobar
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Re: Laminar flow hood in Europe, better fan Vs double size? [Re: covertjoy]
    #28473830 - 09/18/23 02:49 PM (4 months, 7 days ago)

Hi! I'm really sorry about my lack of reply.

I had to go back to work (wasn't expected until December!) and with that, the kids going back to school at the same time, etc... I just slipped and realize just now that I was still owing these lines, hehe :/

In the end I went for this option that I found online... I really wish I'd have been able to follow your input and build my own, but considering my lack of expertise it would have delayed things a lot

Thanks Covertjoy, thanks all, for your input and your time. Warm regards from Spain, and wish you the best :smile:


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