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B Traven
Stranger



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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Huskies] 1
#28507921 - 10/17/23 09:59 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
Huskies said: Hey guys, I was wondering if there is an established consensus on the benefits of coffee/caffeine/coffee grounds in grain boiling or grain jars, I know that for tubs it is a no go.
On a similar note, I was wondering if we should do a Potency Thread similar to this one, where we establish everything we know that does/does not help potency. Perhaps that info could be contained just here.
Well, the only thing we KNOW affects potency is genetics.
It's pretty much accepted/established that supplementing grains or substrates does nothing. There's a lot more nutrition in the grains we use than the mycelium needs. And trying to add precursors flies in the face of biology.
Things like immature fruits being stronger, colder growing conditions and longer consolidation times increasing potency, etc., are hunches that we simply don't have the ability to prove or disprove. Now that we have better and cheaper testing methods, it's something we could start to nail down. But you'd still need to design an enormous multi-factorial study to get any definitive answers.
-------------------- Beware of advice- even this.
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B Traven
Stranger



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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: tree frog] 1
#28507922 - 10/17/23 10:01 AM (3 months, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
tree frog said:
Quote:
Huskies said: Hey guys, I was wondering if there is an established consensus on the benefits of coffee/caffeine/coffee grounds in grain boiling or grain jars, I know that for tubs it is a no go.
I use it for sclerotia. I don't know if others still do.
I've ran other species on the coffee jars and it doesn't hurt anyway. Have 16 bags of enoki colonizing now that were done like this.
But yeah, if you're looking for potency, ms -> agar -> grow (multiple tubs) -> clone (multiple fruits) -> agar -> grow -> bioassay. Keep the winners.
Shoeboxes and other small foot print methods work well for this.
You can also start with potent genetics. PE, APE, etc. Exotics (maybe not start here but if you have a few grows under your belt that's another option.)
I've grown out all sorts of cubensis varieties that aren't "known for potency," and never had much trouble getting them up to "PE" levels. PE is also a pain in the ass to grow.
In my opinion, it's best to learn how to manipulate and test the genetics yourself.
-------------------- Beware of advice- even this.
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Kroxx
Alchemist Seeker of Truth


Registered: 10/07/23
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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
#28521983 - 10/29/23 07:06 AM (2 months, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
BeefSupremeJr said: -regular misting
So are you saying you shouldn't mist at all or you just don't need to mist more than once? I was reading Mateja water tub TEK for BRF cakes, Mateja states: "FAE will cause evaporation to occur slowly so in about 1-5 days you'll need to gently mist to replace the amount of droplets that have vanished in the course of the days."
Has this been debunked and the post is outdated or is regular misting still needed? Thanks in advance!
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mushboy
modboy



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Loc: where?
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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Kroxx] 3
#28521992 - 10/29/23 07:22 AM (2 months, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
BeefSupremeJr said: regular misting
Quote:
Kroxx said: you'll need to gently mist to replace the amount of droplets that have vanished in the course of the days.
regular is noobs misting 3times a day. once every 3 or 5days is hardly regular is it? mist when needed not by some schedule.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Kroxx] 2
#28522007 - 10/29/23 07:46 AM (2 months, 29 days ago) |
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It also depends on environment, that's why he said "as needed". My tubs rarely go to second flush and I never mist before second flush. If the tubs are hydrated appropriately and spawned with sufficient depth, the substrate won't have issues maintaining conditions.
My sub surface looks like this throughout:

The beads never evaporate, so I never mist. Even my thick shoeboxes maintain beads without requiring misting. I'd lean more toward evaporation not being a pinning trigger, my tubs almost never experience evaporation, and pin just fine.
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Kroxx
Alchemist Seeker of Truth


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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28522050 - 10/29/23 08:25 AM (2 months, 29 days ago) |
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Gotcha that's what I figured, I've read to post on surface conditions too but I just wanted to make sure. I'm too new to have a good idea of what regular really means . So if I where to rephrase it I would say: mist based on surface conditions not time.
I would also like to add to stipes quote:
Quote:
Stipe-n Cap said: The idea that higher nutrient content (ammendments/nootz) in substrate boosts performance/increases yield;
Stipes made a wonderful post on nutrition and additives of substrate, I had to do a few searches to find the information so hopefully this will help others!
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=28106983&page=0&vc=1
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B Traven
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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Kroxx]
#28522112 - 10/29/23 09:28 AM (2 months, 28 days ago) |
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Yeah, basically the outdated concepts around the need to actively provide FAE and also mist on a consistent schedule create a situation where, at best, you're on a treadmill doing extra work for no reason. And then the worst case scenario is that all your fanning dries and therefore damages the surface, and then the aggressive misting creates perfect conditions for bacteria to fester in that damaged material.
It's akin to force-feeding yourself on a set schedule, rather than eating when you're actually hungry.
-------------------- Beware of advice- even this.
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Kinoko314
Stranger Danger



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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28522206 - 10/29/23 10:41 AM (2 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Stipe-n Cap said: I'd lean more toward evaporation not being a pinning trigger, my tubs almost never experience evaporation, and pin just fine.
I'm not sure it's fair to say there isn't evaporation happening. I think it's evaporating at a rate that the mycelium is able to replace.
Whether or not evaporation is truly a pinning trigger, I don't have the experience to argue from first-hand knowledge. I thought it was widely and fully accepted as truth though.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Kinoko314] 4
#28522208 - 10/29/23 10:44 AM (2 months, 28 days ago) |
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Everything in this thread was at one point widely accepted.
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BeefSupremeJr
Detritivore



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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 1
#28522266 - 10/29/23 11:45 AM (2 months, 28 days ago) |
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i never accepted hyrdrogen peroxide.
but ya, nothing to add on misting. thanks for being on top of this thread stipe.
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Baba Yaga
♥ coir grower

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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 2
#28522313 - 10/29/23 12:45 PM (2 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Stipe-n Cap said: I'd lean more toward evaporation not being a pinning trigger, my tubs almost never experience evaporation, and pin just fine.
Totally agree with this. Coming from the pan corner there is a very similar believe that repeated saturation and evaporation cycles are essential for pinning but I ran different varieties fruited at spawn numerous times without misting at all and they would pin just fine as well even if the surface dried out a little.
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jungatheart
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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Baba Yaga]
#28522320 - 10/29/23 12:51 PM (2 months, 28 days ago) |
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in
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Baba Yaga]
#28522323 - 10/29/23 12:52 PM (2 months, 28 days ago) |
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@beef
Yeah, I guess Peroxide wasn't. I'm not sure how that one ever made sense to anybody. This is a great thread idea, gives us an opportunity to talk/reason about the things we do, and why.
@Baba
It seems reasonable, I doubt there's much surface evaporation taking place in the wild. It's not like the ground is a bare fruiting surface, it's always covered with some sort of leaf litter, grasses, or some thing similar which would lock moisture/humidity at the surface level beneath all the debris.
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Vast218
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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 1
#28522331 - 10/29/23 01:00 PM (2 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Stipe-n Cap said: It also depends on environment, that's why he said "as needed". My tubs rarely go to second flush and I never mist before second flush. If the tubs are hydrated appropriately and spawned with sufficient depth, the substrate won't have issues maintaining conditions.
My sub surface looks like this throughout:

The beads never evaporate, so I never mist. Even my thick shoeboxes maintain beads without requiring misting. I'd lean more toward evaporation not being a pinning trigger, my tubs almost never experience evaporation, and pin just fine.
One thing that confused me as a noob was that I thought the droplets were a direct consequence of misting, they are not! No amount of misting will produce these droplets on coir (I have tried lol).
The droplets are formed when the mycelium “squeezes” water out of the wet substrate as it grows. So all that matters is starting with the right level hydration and let mycelium growth do the rest, no misting needed.
Sorry I know this is obvious to most of you here, but some newbies might be confused like I was.
Edited by Vast218 (10/29/23 01:01 PM)
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Yuggoth
Mi-Go Cultivator



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Loc: Lost Carcosa
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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Vast218]
#28522335 - 10/29/23 01:05 PM (2 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Vast218 said: One thing that confused me as a noob was that I thought the droplets were a direct consequence of misting, they are not!
I had the same misconception! It's one of the many such things I added to the FAQ in my sig.
This is a fun thread.
-------------------- We have not succeeded in answering all our problems. The answers we have found only serve to raise a whole set of new questions. In some ways we feel we are as confused as ever, but we believe we are confused on a higher level and about more important things. -- Earl C. Kelley Things I really wish I knew when I started // Vacuum sealer discussion thread // Shroomery gif zoo
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Stipe-n Cap


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Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Vast218]
#28522336 - 10/29/23 01:05 PM (2 months, 28 days ago) |
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It's important to note that the droplets often won't form until full colonization. The tiny mycelial filaments which stick up from the substrate surface hold moisture like dew on a spiders web.
New folks often under hydrate their substrate, which leads to poor surface conditions, or they use shoeboxes which have very little separation between sub surface and the large 360° gap which pumps fresh air directly onto the sub, drying it out.
Proper starting water and proper substrate depth = 👌 surface conditions.
Tubs should self regulate their environment. If you're not seeing beads, you probably did it wrong.
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Kinoko314
Stranger Danger



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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28522343 - 10/29/23 01:10 PM (2 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Stipe-n Cap said: @Baba
It seems reasonable, I doubt there's much surface evaporation taking place in the wild. It's not like the ground is a bare fruiting surface, it's always covered with some sort of leaf litter, grasses, or some thing similar which would lock moisture/humidity at the surface level beneath all the debris.
I mean, a pile of leaves isn't exactly an airtight tub. It keeps the ground under it from totally drying out, but it can't "lock in" water vapor. I'm just suggesting there could still be a difference between slight/minimal evaporation and no evaporation. Saying you have no evaporation is like saying your tub would never ever dry out, aside from water transferred to growing mushrooms.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Kinoko314]
#28522364 - 10/29/23 01:23 PM (2 months, 28 days ago) |
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I wasn't using "lock" in a literal sense, perhaps I should have said: "helps hold mositure close to the ground by insulating the surface from the surrounding environment while holding moisture".
I highly doubt my tubs experience any surface evaporation (within the given timeframe of the fruiting cycle), but even if they did, it would be imperceptible/unmeasurable. We cant make any claims about something that cannot be verified by observation or measurement.
It's not at all like saying the tubs will "never" dry out, they clearly would, eventually, however it would take a long time. I'm referring to the short time-frame for colonization and fruiting.
I can however observe the constant presence of moisture beads, they persist even while harvesting. The presence of such copious surface mosisture within an environment exceeding 70% humidity, leads me to believe that evaporation will (within the specified time-frame) be so slow/miniscule as to render it irrelevant.
The holes simply allow for fresh air to move. Some will experience evaporation, some won't, but those who don't, still experience heavy pinsetting. I doubt it plays a significant role, probs as outdated as fanning.
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Yuggoth
Mi-Go Cultivator



Registered: 03/04/23
Posts: 493
Loc: Lost Carcosa
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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28522443 - 10/29/23 02:27 PM (2 months, 28 days ago) |
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Hmm, we actually could measure evaporation by monitoring tub weight.
(FWIW I am also skeptical of evaporation as a trigger.)
-------------------- We have not succeeded in answering all our problems. The answers we have found only serve to raise a whole set of new questions. In some ways we feel we are as confused as ever, but we believe we are confused on a higher level and about more important things. -- Earl C. Kelley Things I really wish I knew when I started // Vacuum sealer discussion thread // Shroomery gif zoo
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Fezzgig
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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Vast218]
#28522460 - 10/29/23 02:39 PM (2 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Stipe-n Cap said:
One thing that confused me as a noob was that I thought the droplets were a direct consequence of misting, they are not! No amount of misting will produce these droplets on coir (I have tried lol).
The droplets are formed when the mycelium “squeezes” water out of the wet substrate as it grows. So all that matters is starting with the right level hydration and let mycelium growth do the rest, no misting needed.
Sorry I know this is obvious to most of you here, but some newbies might be confused like I was.
Noob here. Not obvious to me. Thanks for the info. I assumed it was from misting.
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