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Traveled
Wired



Registered: 08/23/23
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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
#28474761 - 09/19/23 09:39 AM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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I agree with the poo in the kitchen thing.
That's why I pasteurize my horse manure on a camping stove outside. Maybe I should order coco coir to compare but I don't like ordering on the zone for environmental reason and even more cause there is literally a ton pile of shit in the garden.
BTW I dispose of spent cakes and contaminated grain outside on the pile but no cubes yet grew on it.
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BeefSupremeJr
Detritivore



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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Traveled]
#28474763 - 09/19/23 09:40 AM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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Ive never used hpoo. cant comment. if it works it works i suppose?
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Traveled
Wired



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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
#28474766 - 09/19/23 09:49 AM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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It does but I mostly use the bottle tek, so I can't be affirmative about using it as bulk substrate.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Traveled] 1
#28474768 - 09/19/23 09:58 AM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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Manure is pointless, completely and utterly, unequivocally, demonstrably, unnecessary.
Manures require pasteurization. Bulk substrate function as a water reservoir for the flush to draw from, period. Coir/verm hold water efficiently without the requirement for pasteurization. The macro/micro nutrients are provided by the copious amount of cereal grain used to produce the colony.
Manures are antiquated technology for the production of cubensis. Pasteurization requires more energy to produce and is therefore less efficient.
I don't intend to argue, this is posted for the benefit of posterity.
My apologies for the momentary derailment.
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Eclipse3130
Servant of the Fungi



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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28474778 - 09/19/23 10:11 AM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
Stipe-n Cap said: Manure is pointless, completely and utterly, unequivocally, demonstrably, unnecessary.
Manures require pasteurization. Bulk substrate function as a water reservoir for the flush to draw from, period. Coir/verm hold water efficiently without the requirement for pasteurization. The macro/micro nutrients are provided by the copious amount of cereal grain used to produce the colony.
Manures are antiquated technology for the production of cubensis.
Pasteurization requires more energy to produce and is thereby less efficient on every conceivable level of analysis.

Especially at the rates manure is used in substrate(around 10%)?
Yet thousands of pounds are commercially sold daily, profiting off the misinformation of noobs and the people that believe you can increase yields by substrate and believe the age old saying "mushrooms grow on cow patties" so it must be good
Imagine being one of those people selling actual sh*t to people and profiting off them.
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
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chikn fingaz


Registered: 02/24/23
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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28474788 - 09/19/23 10:16 AM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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Opinions on going straight to fruiting vs 75-100% colonizations in showboxes?
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BeefSupremeJr
Detritivore



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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: chikn fingaz] 1
#28474794 - 09/19/23 10:21 AM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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shoeboxes are by definition always in fruiting condition. They designed them to have passive air exchange. That way your shoes don't get disgusting.
That said, spawning into fruiting conditions is standard convention now.
Edited by BeefSupremeJr (09/19/23 10:22 AM)
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: BeefSupremeJr] 1
#28474810 - 09/19/23 10:30 AM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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Spawning = fruiting conditions.
Spawn run in sealed, sterile vessels have restricted gas exchange; The moment you expose vegetative, secondary mycelium to fresh air, you're exposing the colony to the conditions which produce fruits.
Spawning to open air is synonymous with the term "fruiting conditions". Expansion via grain to grain, or to a larger, sealed vessel, like an all in one substrate is not "fruiting", it remains in the category of spawn-run until exposed to the open environment.
No amount of taping tub holes will change the conditions post spawning, your taped up tubs are now just unmodified tubs. Any introduction to the open environment = fruiting.
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BeefSupremeJr
Detritivore



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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 1
#28474835 - 09/19/23 10:50 AM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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thank you stipe for helping with this effort. youre one in 10 billion spores, maybe more.
I want to talk breifly about pasteurizing/sterilizing coir and why we dont do it.
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BeefSupremeJr
Detritivore



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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
#28474837 - 09/19/23 10:51 AM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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also, fahts told me sealing a tub at spawning is a great way to let bacteria run amock if present. i had tremendous success with no tape on ez dial tubs as per
Edited by BeefSupremeJr (09/19/23 10:56 AM)
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: BeefSupremeJr] 4
#28474848 - 09/19/23 11:02 AM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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Sterilizing coir is harmless. Pasty ran some tests and found that mycelium appear to enjoy the heavily softened, super heat treated coir. The reason we don't do it is because the effort does not confer a real advantage, and is therefore a waste of time and effort.
Cold water is "sufficient" for coir, however, I recommend using piping hot water at a minimum, boiling water is great, for a couple of reasons:
1. Hot water expands the coir more rapidly than cold water;
2. Hot water softens the fibers, allowing the coir to hold more water without exceeding field capacity;
3. Any temperature above 72Β°C (161Β°F) will destroy any present molds in approximately 15 seconds. This will serve as a redundancy measure.
Boiling water covers a multitude of sins 
Here's a handy chart for reference:

Processed coir should be free of bacterial endospores, and live vegetative bacteria, which would make autoclaving pointless.
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BeefSupremeJr
Detritivore



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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 1
#28474863 - 09/19/23 11:14 AM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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aaaaaw yeah data. i eat this shit up thank you. i always "cook" my coir with boiling water because cooked coir gots what myc crave.
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Tiamo
Trust in LITFA



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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28474865 - 09/19/23 11:15 AM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
Stipe-n Cap said: Sterilizing coir is harmless. Pasty ran some tests and found that mycelium appear to enjoy the heavily softened, super heat treated coir. The reason we don't do it is because the effort does not confer a real advantage, and is therefore a waste of time and effort.
Cold water is "sufficient" for coir, however, I recommend using piping hot water at a minimum, boiling water is great, for a couple of reasons:
1. Hot water expands the coir more rapidly than cold water;
2. Hot water softens the fibers, allowing the coir to hold more water without exceeding field capacity;
3. Any temperature above 72Β°C (161Β°F) will destroy any present molds in approximately 15 seconds. This will serve as a redundancy measure.
Boiling water covers a multitude of sins 
Here's a handy chart for reference:

Processed coir should be free of bacterial endospores, and live vegetative bacteria, which would make autoclaving pointless.
Can we really compare exposing coir in a bucket to hot water to continuous flow pasteurization? They are two very different things. I would guess bucket TEK is closer to vat pasteurization which has a very different timeline for killing moulds.
--------------------
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Tiamo]
#28474872 - 09/19/23 11:21 AM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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I'm not making the comparison. I'm simply stating that molds will absolutely die at those temps, for those exposure times, probably even less time than what's listed on that chart.
Mold is very sensitive to heat. Those temperatures and exposure times are intended for the destruction of bacteria, within a specified system, however, they will overlap with mold destruction temps in a small vat like a 5 gal bucket, or even a stock tank. The thermal mass of the substrate will hold temps at or above the appropriate temperature to kill molds, for hours.
The above portion regarding Vat pasteurization would correlate to manure pasteurization with microbes other than mold, bacteria specifically. 1-2 hours at that temperature is standard pasteurization protocol for manure substrates and peat based casing material.
140-160Β°F, or 60-71Β°C. 30 minutes is probably sufficient, redundancy is key.
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BeefSupremeJr
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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28474936 - 09/19/23 11:57 AM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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bod alwyas used a water cooler to insulate the heat. I have never had issues just using a bucket. Even after several hours it's hot as fuck inside
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: BeefSupremeJr]
#28474943 - 09/19/23 12:03 PM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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Yeah, buckets are definitely sufficient.
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Traveled
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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 1
#28474956 - 09/19/23 12:18 PM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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I got your point and doesn't disagree, as I said I only use manure because I have two horses at home... so free substrate. I do note that the energy used for sterilize manure is a waste but once again as said before I'm a bottle tek gang guy so the substrate sterilization is included in the process of making bottles.
Not arguing just clarifying why. Thanks beef and stipe for the knowledge 
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Traveled]
#28474964 - 09/19/23 12:24 PM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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Yeah man, do what makes you happy, especially if you have horses. My reply was just an overkill preventative measure for future noobs who read this post 
Glad to be of service.
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BeefSupremeJr
Detritivore



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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 3
#28474974 - 09/19/23 12:33 PM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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for posterity! and bottle tek is a different beast and im sure sir P would have more to say about it. happy to hear people carrying muddas legacy.
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DharmaForKarma
Tub monkey


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Re: outdated and obsolete information 2023 edition [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 2
#28474980 - 09/19/23 12:42 PM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
Stipe-n Cap said: Aborts are more potent than other fruit;
Funny thing about this one. Iβve had some chats with the folks who operate a local testing service. Theyβve been testing cannabis for several years (growers/dispensaries are required by law) and now are testing the State-legal psychedelics psilocybin, mescaline, and dmt. Theyβve published a bit of research and are collecting data on many things including aborts. So far they are finding aborts are in fact more potent.
Stay tuned. Iβll post when they publish.
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