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Zav3r
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Monotub vs Shoebox Question.
#28471414 - 09/16/23 05:24 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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I was wondering what everyone's thoughts are on:
Why is it that the shoebox works unmodded with lids closed, but the monotub can't function like that? Why do we need more air from the outside coming in the monotub? How is that better at creating fruiting conditions for each TEK?
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thirdeyewild



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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r]
#28471419 - 09/16/23 05:31 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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I just flip the lids on both. Works fine. These days I only run shoeboxes though as I don't need more mushrooms; but I love cultivating.
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Zav3r
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And no difference between the two? I'm just trying to figure out how to master the damn fruiting conditions.
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thirdeyewild



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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r]
#28471479 - 09/16/23 06:15 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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I tended to get better canopies with the monos but I could not really speculate why.
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Zav3r
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Ya like how is the mono better or the shoebox better. how is it that one rule applies to one and a different one for the other.
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RoscoeReturns
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r] 9
#28471613 - 09/16/23 08:05 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Because they are different.
Shoeboxes are great as a beginner tool. They have built in FAE via a lid that doesn’t seal. Nobody wants sweaty shoes sealed up tight. They are awesome if you have a sketchy quart of grain you don’t want to mix with other due to contam risk, or if you want to run a bunch of different sets of genetics looking for a cool pheno or a good clone.
Monos a great because they can be dialed in a bit better and provide better surface conditions. They have head room, so you can stack a bunch and still let your mushroom grow tall. I usually get better weight per quart of spawn in a mono, but not by much. Monos can give you much bigger fruit if your genetics are good.
I’ve seen you asking a bunch of these types of questions. Are you growing any shrooms yet. Don’t put too much worry in to which method is “best.” That will depend on what species you’re growing, your ambient conditions, your skill level, and your goals. Pick any proven tek and just grow. For the first year or so YOU will be the rate limiting factor. Learn how to produce clean spawn. Learn what contams look like. Learn what works and what doesn’t in your grow space. Observe. Mush are pretty resilient and will suffer a lot of abuse and still grow. Watch them. Learn. Post pics of what you have going on and we’ll help. Answering all these questions if you’re not trying anything is pissing in the wind.
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jay.ach
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Quote:
RoscoeReturns said: Pick any proven tek and just grow. For the first year or so YOU will be the rate limiting factor. Learn how to produce clean spawn. Learn what contams look like. Learn what works and what doesn’t in your grow space. Observe.
Lots of knowledge there!
-------------------- “One's destination is never a place, but a new way of seeing things.” - Henry Miller
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Zav3r
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I'm growing. I've perfected everything up to the fruiting conditions. I have good spawn, one contamination out of 20 which was my fault, the other one was just luck. I have 3 tubs of goldens at 2nd flush, I have a monotub at 2nd flush. I have 2 PE's. One at 3rd flush. One waiting fruiting.
I am doing the work but my pinset is sparse on most tubs, and side pinning on the one I made a mistake with. I think I'm learning but I'm obsessed with perfection and getting this to the tee.
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xVadisx
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r]
#28471699 - 09/16/23 09:49 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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You can also go in-between. Run an 18qt or so "shoebox" filled to the top. It's like a mono-slice. It can be dubbed or put into a larger tote. Gives those bigger shrooms . Sometimes.
kinda like this:
-------------------- Thanks to everyone for sharing what they know . 165F for 24hrs.
Better Holes Tek (Use a Step Drill Bit)
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Kinoko314
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r] 4
#28471751 - 09/16/23 11:08 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zav3r said: I've perfected everything up to the fruiting conditions.
I'm finding this hard to believe, given that you are having sparse flushes. If your spawn was really clean I think you'd have a fuller flush. The exact amount of FAE has less of an impact than spawn cleanliness.
When you start, "clean" spawn is anything that doesn't turn another color. In reality white spawn can still be bacterial. It takes time to learn to recognize this, and longer to learn to avoid it. I still struggle to get spawn clean enough that I'd be comfortable using it for G2G. Roscoe is right when he says YOU are the limiting factor for the first year or so.
The only reason you don't have to poke holes in a shoebox is that the air gets in through the imperfect seal close to the substrate. With more head room, it's a long way from the substrate.
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Stipe-n Cap
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Kinoko314]
#28471758 - 09/16/23 11:13 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Mycolorado
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 1
#28471765 - 09/16/23 11:22 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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I would agree with that, but a flush can be severely impacted by constant misting/drying cycles and a matted surface.
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Zav3r
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28471857 - 09/17/23 03:56 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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thanks for the input. I'm 100% sure my spawns are clean. My methods against contam are near perfect.
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starvinghooker
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r] 1
#28472171 - 09/17/23 09:50 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zav3r said: thanks for the input. I'm 100% sure my spawns are clean. My methods against contam are near perfect.
Saying things like "I'm 100% sure my spawns are clean" pretty much sums up the reason behind Roscoes entire post.
-------------------- Grab life by the balls and yank on 'em til everything you want comes gushing out in thick, creamy ribbons
Noob like me? Start here!
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SnakeEyes212
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: xVadisx] 1
#28472200 - 09/17/23 10:07 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
xVadisx said: You can also go in-between. Run an 18qt or so "shoebox" filled to the top. It's like a mono-slice. It can be dubbed or put into a larger tote. Gives those bigger shrooms . Sometimes.
kinda like this: 
Oh this is the future! I likey.
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xVadisx
MountainsDogsAndFungi



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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: SnakeEyes212] 1
#28472452 - 09/17/23 12:10 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
SnakeEyes212 said:
Quote:
xVadisx said: You can also go in-between. Run an 18qt or so "shoebox" filled to the top. It's like a mono-slice. It can be dubbed or put into a larger tote. Gives those bigger shrooms . Sometimes.
kinda like this: 
Oh this is the future! I likey.
It works! So do ziplocks though, alongside many other things. Like shoes. Or little wizard houses. Or whatever else people have grown shrooms in.

-------------------- Thanks to everyone for sharing what they know . 165F for 24hrs.
Better Holes Tek (Use a Step Drill Bit)
Don't forget your towel: THE HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE SHROOMERY
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Zav3r
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I did 20 of these. No contamination. 2 jars got though. One of them was my fault.
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Mycolorado
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r]
#28472557 - 09/17/23 01:05 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Those cultures need more work before going to grain. You want even uniform growth.
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med man
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Mycolorado]
#28472778 - 09/17/23 03:49 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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-------------------- Somewhere between chaos and disorder.
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starvinghooker
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r]
#28472807 - 09/17/23 04:09 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Learning how to identify clean spawn is a skill that takes time, whether grain, agar, slants, etc. Took a long time for "just because it's white doesn't mean it's right" to drill its way through my thick skull.
-------------------- Grab life by the balls and yank on 'em til everything you want comes gushing out in thick, creamy ribbons
Noob like me? Start here!
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Shroomery
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Zav3r
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Mycolorado]
#28473360 - 09/18/23 06:14 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Yes I know. I didn't transfer them yet. And what do you mean by uniform growth? I can't control how the mycelium grows
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Zav3r
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Mycolorado]
#28473361 - 09/18/23 06:16 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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And sorry but honestly it feels like youre just fault finding at this point. I mean this is pretty good growth in agar. It's early in the process so some of them are only 20% colonized. Some of them I put the tissue far from center by mistake. like seriously you don't have to find the little flaws everywhere.
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SnakeEyes212
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r]
#28473369 - 09/18/23 06:30 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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jay.ach
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r]
#28473371 - 09/18/23 06:33 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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I think what he is saying is that you might have better success if you do more transfers before sending to grain. Examples below.
Another thing you might consider is running two or three shoe boxes and changing one thing per shoebox - do one and 'set and forget', one where you do misting, and one where you do misting and fanning. Figure out which one works best.
T0 (also don't use red food coloring in your agar)

T5

T7, this one went to grain
-------------------- “One's destination is never a place, but a new way of seeing things.” - Henry Miller
LAGM v. 2.023
LAGM2021
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DERRAYLD
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r]
#28473372 - 09/18/23 06:34 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zav3r said: And sorry but honestly it feels like youre just fault finding at this point. I mean this is pretty good growth in agar. It's early in the process so some of them are only 20% colonized. Some of them I put the tissue far from center by mistake. like seriously you don't have to find the little flaws everywhere.

You came here asking for advice, you literally asked people to find the little flaws that you're struggling with.
Your agar is very far from good enough whether you like that or not it's still a reality you need to face. Your agar needs to be cleaned up further.
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Kinoko314
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r]
#28473373 - 09/18/23 06:36 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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If you don't consider your flaws you won't get any better at this.
Non-uniform growth indicates some level of contamination. If you're not getting uniform growth you should keep transferring until you do. None of those plates look ready for grain, and some look really rough. Keep transferring.
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Zav3r
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: jay.ach]
#28473381 - 09/18/23 06:53 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Anyone have a guide on this transfer idea?
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SnakeEyes212
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r]
#28473385 - 09/18/23 07:05 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Find the fastest developing rhizo growth and cut a triangle piece around it and transfer it? Idk I haven’t started agar yet
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Zav3r
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: DERRAYLD]
#28473420 - 09/18/23 07:59 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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I'm pretty sure it's not contaminated. Yes it's not even growth but that could be just the way the myc grows. Even after the transfers the myc is growing really well in the grain jars.
That's why I'm saying I've done everything well up to the fruiting conditions. I appreciate the feedback but also some feedback also feels like it's not applicable to the situation.
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Zav3r
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Kinoko314]
#28473424 - 09/18/23 08:00 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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You cant be serious at saying that the number one differential of uneven growth is contamination. It can't be anything else? like we're sure that's the problem? Im sorry but I honestly have a really hard time accepting that "uneven growth" without any other visual cues, just the fact that some parts grow faster than others is contamination.
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Stipe-n Cap
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r] 2
#28473431 - 09/18/23 08:08 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zav3r said: ...what do you mean by uniform growth? I can't control how the mycelium grows
Yes you can. You make transfers until the growth is symetrical, uniform, clean, and healthy. You don't know what you don't know, and we know an awful lot.
This is a germ plate:

The growth is asymmetrical, the milky dots are bacteria. This plate needs to be cleaned, the culture requires further transfers to produce symetrical growth.
These plates lack bacteria, but lack uniform growth:

Here's an example of uniform, symetrical growth. This plate is clean and ready for grain:

You have absolutely no frame of reference. You haven't learned to visually identify problems, you're incapable, utterly and completely. Your plates need work, they're far from ready.
You should be thankful that we're helping you. Take it personally if you like but I guarantee you won't last long with that attitude.
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starvinghooker
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r]
#28473439 - 09/18/23 08:16 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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SnC kinda beat me to post, but ill submit this anyway 
Uneven growth is not necessarily contaminated, but it may not be very healthy. Two main points of agar work: 1.clear myc of contaminates 2.inoculate your grain with the best myc possible
Take a small slice from the healthiest looking area of your plate, ryzo growth if possible. Preferably using an SAB, transfer that piece to a new plate. From here, just keep repeating until you have some really nice, clean, uniform/radial growth.
The process can take multiple transfers, determined by a few different factors. Sometimes 2 or 3 transfers...sometimes 5 or 6. But when you get that beautiful plate of radial ryzo growth it feels fn good, man.
Of the 20 plates you posted, go through and find the best looking spots to Tfer from and get started. Some of them you probably won't even wanna use, but that's all good. Just keep slicing and multiplying.
Good luck, man
-------------------- Grab life by the balls and yank on 'em til everything you want comes gushing out in thick, creamy ribbons
Noob like me? Start here!
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Shroomery
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Zav3r
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28473445 - 09/18/23 08:26 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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I have a frame of reference because I've done microbiology work so I know how contaminations look. They're my first agar work in this field however. I looked at youtube videos on cutting core samples from fruiting bodies to agar. That's what I did and that's why I think the mycelium has uneven growth.
Thanks for all the help. All I'm saying is that the mycelium from my plates look contamination free. for sure uneven growth COULD BE a sign of contamination but I don't think that's a certainty especially without any other visual clues.
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starvinghooker
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r]
#28473446 - 09/18/23 08:27 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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There seems to be one thing you arent understanding: healthy myc grows uniformly. There is a difference between contaminated and healthy.
I think you'd do well to take everything you "believe" up to this point and shred that shit.
Then, instead of arguing with people who've been growing for 30 or 40 years, read what they've posted and ask questions when you need clarification. You won't find a better resource than here for learning mushcult. I highly recommend not arguing with these people. If that's what ya wanna do, I hear reddit is always looking for new converts.
-------------------- Grab life by the balls and yank on 'em til everything you want comes gushing out in thick, creamy ribbons
Noob like me? Start here!
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Shroomery
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Zav3r
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Thanks but too late. I already transferred all of them to grain jars lol
Grain jars look good though. I don't have pics now though.
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RoscoeReturns
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r]
#28473486 - 09/18/23 09:07 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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I’m sure this will end well.
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Zav3r
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I will definitely let you know
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Mycolorado
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r] 2
#28473507 - 09/18/23 09:23 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zav3r said: I have a frame of reference because I've done microbiology work so I know how contaminations look. They're my first agar work in this field however. I looked at youtube videos on cutting core samples from fruiting bodies to agar. That's what I did and that's why I think the mycelium has uneven growth.
Thanks for all the help. All I'm saying is that the mycelium from my plates look contamination free. for sure uneven growth COULD BE a sign of contamination but I don't think that's a certainty especially without any other visual clues.
You know what’s up; No need to ask for any more input, you got this!
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SnakeEyes212
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28473516 - 09/18/23 09:29 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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I really learned something here! Now I just need a pressure cooker and the other supplies and I’ll be ready for agar. I still have plenty of brf and verm so I think I’ll just run that till I’m out, make some prints, take some biopsies( I have those micro centrifuge tubes), and then I’ll be ready. I feel ready already!
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Zav3r
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I think my transition to agar was a big game changer. Before agar to grains, I did my own spore prints and then inoculated my own spore syringes into grains. 4/5 of those grains are dead from stalling. I just assumed it was some contamination and had to throw it all out. Since going into agar to grain, I don’t have any more stalls. My grain jars look really good. 2/10 are at 100%. The rest around 50-80% colonization.
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Stipe-n Cap
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r] 3
#28473533 - 09/18/23 09:45 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zav3r said: ... for sure uneven growth COULD BE a sign of contamination but I don't think that's a certainty especially without any other visual clues.
I posted those middle plates up there because they're presenting with a problematic symetry. Transferring those plates to grain would set you back at least 2 months; I'm willing to bet you didn't catch it.
Just remember, there are people here who know a thing or two, and they're willing to share those experiences, free of charge.
Good luck.
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Zav3r
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28473706 - 09/18/23 12:12 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Well firstly I didn't know about this symmetry thing.
and second I think they'll be okay. So far they are.
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DERRAYLD
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r] 1
#28473747 - 09/18/23 12:56 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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SCIENCE
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Stipe-n Cap
The Pride of Cucamonga


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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r] 2
#28473751 - 09/18/23 12:58 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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You don't know, and that's exactly my point.
They might be fine, but that's not the point either. Just because you might get away with it once, doesn't mean it's the appropriate course of action.
Mycelium will present in a few different ways:
floccose, Tomentose, rhizomorphic, and scalloped. These are the four primary visual growth patterns. You may have experience with bacterial cultures, or perhaps yeast. It's apparent that you have zero experience with fungal or mold cultures, which ia to be expected.
Make all the mistakes you want, but don't dismiss offhand those in a position to help, we may not be here when the problems start to materialize from the advice you chose to ignore.
This is about the best advice you're likely to receive. Those who know will stop wasting their time, all you'll have left is the parrots and UB truthers
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starvinghooker
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Quote:
RoscoeReturns said: I’m sure this will end well.

Someone let me know when the grain jar photos get posted. With all that prior YouTube experience, they should look superb.
-------------------- Grab life by the balls and yank on 'em til everything you want comes gushing out in thick, creamy ribbons
Noob like me? Start here!
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Shroomery
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Zav3r
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Mycolorado
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r]
#28474069 - 09/18/23 06:43 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Zav3r
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Edited by Zav3r (09/18/23 06:52 PM)
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Zav3r
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r]
#28474077 - 09/18/23 06:46 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Side note. I overcooked my grains that’s why they look like mush. This is my first time making grain spawn from scratch so I’m still trying to get that right. But I promise they were like that even right off the PC.
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BeefSupremeJr
Detritivore



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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r]
#28474079 - 09/18/23 06:47 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zav3r said: thanks for the input. I'm 100% sure my spawns are clean. My methods against contam are near perfect.
im 100% sure youre not 100% sure. that said, im lovin ez dial monos. they work as advertised.
Edited by BeefSupremeJr (09/18/23 06:47 PM)
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Zav3r
Stranger

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Yeah I guess not 100%. but they look pretty clean to me. I mean it's just clean white mycelium growing all around.
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BeefSupremeJr
Detritivore



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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r]
#28474091 - 09/18/23 06:54 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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nah those wet grains against the glass. contam. that clumping together? contam. its very bacterial. it ok man. theyll still produce but yeah. stay humble. this hobby can floor you. been doing it for what.. 19 years? i still fuck up and i still lose tubs to trich.
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Stipe-n Cap
The Pride of Cucamonga


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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r]
#28474093 - 09/18/23 06:55 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Your spawn looks like garbage. This is why you listen to your elders, son 
Cram this in yer eye holes:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27187543/fpart/1/vc/1
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RoscoeReturns
Crotchety chode man



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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 1
#28474099 - 09/18/23 06:59 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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This thread has not disappointed. Thanks OP.
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BeefSupremeJr
Detritivore



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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28474103 - 09/18/23 07:00 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stipe-n Cap said: Your spawn looks like garbage. This is why you listen to your elders, son 
Cram this in yer eye holes:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27187543/fpart/1/vc/1
cmon man im not that old
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Stipe-n Cap
The Pride of Cucamonga


Registered: 08/04/12
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Old enough to know better
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Zav3r
Stranger

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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28474188 - 09/18/23 07:51 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Lmao
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BeefSupremeJr
Detritivore



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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r]
#28474211 - 09/18/23 08:16 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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old enough to know a contam when i see one for sure.
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B Traven
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r] 1
#28474214 - 09/18/23 08:17 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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On the original question, and also touching on this latest iteration of the "my spawn is perfect" conversation:
Truly clean spawn based on solid genetics will do just about anything you want it to. There's an infinite number of container permutations and air hole configurations that would work. "Monotubs" and "shoeboxes" are based on some of the most easily sourced plastic storage containers in the US. That's it. That's why we have them. If you look at different pictures on the forum, you'll see that people aren't even all using the same ones. We live in different climates, and different houses with their own heating and cooling systems. Every single grow space is going to be ever so slightly different from all the others.
Having a relatively larger vessel with more spawn mix in it will increase the overall size of the colony, and lead to a lower surface-area-to-volume ratio. Having a relatively smaller vessel will do the opposite. And that does translate into a number of differences. But if you can't get a canopy out of a shoebox, switching to a monotub isn't going to save you.
I started with larger tubs, then downsized to the 6 quart sterilites for a while because of contamination issues. Eventually, I just got used to them, and began to enjoy how much easier they were to stack and move around. Also, much easier to clean, store, and work with (they fit in my dishwasher). I also enjoyed being able to run more independent culture lines with the same amount of space and material.
Lately, I've been enjoying the ability to scoop up the entire substrate from a shoebox and drop it into a larger tub, basically turning it into a giant PF cake.
Seriously, do what's fun and what works for you. And if you're having serious issues, and aren't doing any dumb shit like fanning and misting, then the problem is usually your spawn.
All that said: I have never ever flipped a lid over, and I have no intention of ever doing so.
-------------------- Beware of advice- even this.
Edited by B Traven (09/18/23 08:25 PM)
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xVadisx
MountainsDogsAndFungi



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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: B Traven]
#28474221 - 09/18/23 08:24 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
B Traven said: On the original question, and also touching on this latest iteration of the "my spawn is perfect" conversation:
Truly clean spawn based on solid genetics will do just about anything you want it to. There's an infinite number of container permutations and air hole configurations that would work. "Monotubs" and "shoeboxes" are based on some of the most easily sourced plastic storage containers in the US. That's it. That's why we have them. If you look at different pictures on the forum, you'll see that people aren't even all using the same ones. We live in different climates, and different houses with their own heating and cooling systems. Every single grow space is going to be ever so slightly different from all the others.
Having a relatively larger vessel with more spawn mix in it will increase the overall size of the colony, and lead to a lower surface-area-to-volume ratio. Having a relatively smaller vessel will do the opposite. And that does translate into a number of differences. But if you can't get a canopy out of a shoebox, switching to a monotub isn't going to save you.
I started with larger tubs, then downsized to the 6 quart sterilites for a while because of contamination issues. Eventually, I just got used to them, and began to enjoy how much easier they were to stack and move around. I also enjoyed being able to run more independent culture lines with the same amount of space and material.
Lately, I've been enjoying the ability to scoop up the entire substrate from a shoebox and drop it into a larger tub, basically turning it into a giant PF cake.
Seriously, do what's fun and what works for you. And if you're having serious issues, and aren't doing any dumb shit like fanning and misting, then the problem is usually your spawn.
All that said: I have never ever flipped a lid over, and I have no intention of ever doing so.
Only you have control over if you flip your lid or not. The mushies do help keep calm.
When I see folks running one type of container, nicely staked or organized, I'm kind of jealous. I run like 12 different containers and a shoe. I do like the 6qt shoeboxes as well, but have really started loving the 18qts.
-------------------- Thanks to everyone for sharing what they know . 165F for 24hrs.
Better Holes Tek (Use a Step Drill Bit)
Don't forget your towel: THE HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE SHROOMERY
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B Traven
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: xVadisx]
#28474224 - 09/18/23 08:26 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Lol good one
I keep thinking about going bigger again, but it hasn't happened yet.
Going through all the random crap I'm storing in my larger tubs would probably help.
-------------------- Beware of advice- even this.
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Zav3r
Stranger

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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28474246 - 09/18/23 08:38 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Okay you guys have to chill. This isn't contam. I mean if that's your opinion then fine. Since you guys are experts. I mean I can't really tell you otherwise. I saw it grow from the isolate and colonize the grain slowly. I have a negative control with no growth. There's no way this is bacterial contamination when the myc is growing forward and looks healthy. It's white, the same color as the myc. It's not little pockets that are isolated. Of course the only way I can prove you guys wrong is if I isolate it after I open the thing. Point out the contam and I'll isolate it in a nutrient agar once I open it.
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NotFromGeorgia
it's 'Mr. Stranger' to you



Registered: 07/18/23
Posts: 332
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r] 2
#28474262 - 09/18/23 08:50 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zav3r said:

Quote:
Zav3r said: This isn't contam.
-------------------- The most important step a man can take. It's not the first one, is it?
It's the next one. Always the next step, Dalinar.
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Zav3r
Stranger

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Okay I admit this is kinda a weird jar.
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starvinghooker
Voyager



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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r]
#28474278 - 09/18/23 09:01 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mycolorado said:

Quote:
Zav3r said: Yeah I guess not 100%. but they look pretty clean to me. I mean it's just clean white mycelium growing all around.
Do yourself a huge favor and read Stipe's Clean Spawn Checklist. Then, read it at least 13 more times. You'll eventually come away with an understanding about how gnarly your jars are. I learned more from that thread than I did in my first month trying mushcult.
As you say "the jars look clean to me", ask yourself what you're basing your assessment on. No one here is trying to give you a hard time; we're simply trying to explain that your assumptions are incorrect. Listen to these people. Everyone here wants to see you succeed, I promise you that.
I said it before on this thread and I still say it to myself on the reg: "Just because it's white doesn't mean it's right."
-------------------- Grab life by the balls and yank on 'em til everything you want comes gushing out in thick, creamy ribbons
Noob like me? Start here!
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Shroomery
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B Traven
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r] 1
#28474291 - 09/18/23 09:07 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zav3r said: Okay you guys have to chill. This isn't contam. I mean if that's your opinion then fine. Since you guys are experts. I mean I can't really tell you otherwise. I saw it grow from the isolate and colonize the grain slowly. I have a negative control with no growth. There's no way this is bacterial contamination when the myc is growing forward and looks healthy. It's white, the same color as the myc. It's not little pockets that are isolated. Of course the only way I can prove you guys wrong is if I isolate it after I open the thing. Point out the contam and I'll isolate it in a nutrient agar once I open it.
You don't have to prove anything to us.
Also, bear in mind that while people have offered you their advice, half the point here is that a bunch of other people will read this. We don't have a compelling need to prove you wrong and make you eat crow. But if you post a picture of something people deem to be infected, and you claim that it's perfect, then that does need to be addressed. Otherwise, future readers may be led astray.
This whole conversation has played out so many times. We harp on this shit because we've lived the difference between clean spawn and iffy spawn, and truly clean spawn is 1000 times less painful to work with.
-------------------- Beware of advice- even this.
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starvinghooker
Voyager



Registered: 04/16/23
Posts: 540
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: B Traven]
#28474304 - 09/18/23 09:16 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
This whole conversation has played out so many times. We harp on this shit because we've lived the difference between clean spawn and iffy spawn, and truly clean spawn is 1000 times less painful to work with.
This might be the thruthiest of true truths ever typed.
Edit: is anyone gonna take the time to circle the contams or should we just walk on this one...
Edited by starvinghooker (09/18/23 09:23 PM)
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DERRAYLD
Constructus



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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r] 1
#28474487 - 09/19/23 12:43 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zav3r said: Okay you guys have to chill.
Classic, walk into any situation where you're dealing with knowledgeable members, get blasted for not having a clue and then saying "chill guys".
How do people get by in life with this attitude?
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meta_mmxxii



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Posts: 1,071
Loc: PNW
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: DERRAYLD] 2
#28474489 - 09/19/23 12:52 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Well, I like to read these kind of threads, I just learned something else new to me. I especially like when noobs argue with the TCs because the Tcs explain how it is and how it should be. Thanks for the knowledge guys!
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JXAllen
Cannalyst


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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: DERRAYLD]
#28474508 - 09/19/23 01:44 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
DERRAYLD said:
How do people get by in life with this attitude?
Participation trophies. Everyone's a winner! Even the losers...
-------------------- There are only 10 types of people in the world, those that understand binary and those that do not.
Cultures I'm workin on
 
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Zav3r
Stranger

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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: JXAllen]
#28474616 - 09/19/23 06:45 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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So first off, none of you can be absolutely sure. I can’t be sure either. Im trying to learn as well. If you guys are absolutely certain, then you and me are no different with the level of stubbornness and inability to accept one being wrong.
Second, I think proving your or my claim’s validity is a good educational exercise. This may allow us to say “hey, maybe this guy is on to something” or maybe “I guess not everything here is correct because so much of the info here changes, or even contradicts itself at times.” And of course, “yeah this guy is a total idiot.”
I read the clean spawn checklist. Yes one of my jars seem off. but honestly the rest seem okay.
I’ll still try to take small chunks of the allegedly contaminated spawns and culture it. I wish I can use an anti fungal to check if there is indeed bacterial contamination but I can’t. Then ill post it here as a learning experience.
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DERRAYLD
Constructus



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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r] 1
#28474618 - 09/19/23 06:50 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Do whatever you want to improve your learning but don't debate with us. The majority that responded to you did so based on experience not some thumbsuck.
Your attitude is not the same as us giving you educated answers, to even make out like they are the same is really showing a serious lack of understanding.
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Stipe-n Cap
The Pride of Cucamonga


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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: DERRAYLD] 4
#28474647 - 09/19/23 07:49 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Nothing can be known about cultivation with certainty. Anyone who knows, knows they don't know what's going on with their spawn. Socratic paradox tek, for noobs.

I anticipate the locking of this thread.
Also, if you think you're equipped to isolate bacterial colonies from mycelia produced in septic conditions without proper technique, or equipment, you've really got us all beat.
We didn't need an entire thread to argue about shitty spawn, so if this doesn't change gears, expect to be eventually 🔒
Edit:
OP, this thread outlines sampling procedure for the isolation of bacteria from mycelium, along with the appropriate laboratory to send bacterial cultures for identification.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26872959
This thread has gone off topic. If you'd like to continue discussing the OP, feel free. Otherwise, feel free to argue on behalf of your plate cultures here:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25662166
Or you can discuss spawn in these two places:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27187543/fpart/1/vc/1
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23528067
Edited by Stipe-n Cap (09/19/23 08:25 AM)
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starvinghooker
Voyager



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Posts: 540
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: DERRAYLD]
#28474668 - 09/19/23 08:08 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
DERRAYLD said:
Quote:
Zav3r said: Okay you guys have to chill.
Classic, walk into any situation where you're dealing with knowledgeable members, get blasted for not having a clue and then saying "chill guys".
How do people get by in life with this attitude?
'Merrica
I envy many aspects of your location.
Edit: my apologies for continuing to add to the pile of useless, admittedly self-serving posts on this thread. It bothered me way more than it should have and I allowed my emotional response to spill here. I'm simply not equipped to explain to someone that they're wrong when they refuse to accept it even after 8 or so extremely knowledgeable others have already explained it. There's a particular word for someone like that, but it's not in my normal vocabulary. It's like a form of denial despite evidence to the contrary...there's a word for it that I can't think of. Not "delusional" but something close. Anywho, I'm locking myself out from this one. If this isn't a troll then there's no help to be had.
BTW...where's Screwup been during all this? 
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thirdeyewild



Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 1,376
Loc:
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Cognitive dissonance. Is that the term you are looking for?
--------------------
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BeefSupremeJr
Detritivore



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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: thirdeyewild] 1
#28474719 - 09/19/23 08:58 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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i always struggled with sbs and i never knew it. flip the lid crack the lid twist it bop it pull it! i dont think ill ever not do ez dials
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Zav3r
Stranger

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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#28474731 - 09/19/23 09:08 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Thank you. I don't know if I can do bacterial isolation. it's possible with the right antifungal. I have access to the antifungal. I think exploring this avenue of study can open up other ways we can make sure spawn is clean. This is a learning process. You're not sure if there is contamination so you check. I think that's a pretty simple and healthy way to go about understanding your methods. A lot of things here in shroomery are about checking your work, testing if something works or doesn't work. I think I and everyone here for that matter have the liberty to "test" their theories with appropriate guidance of course. I think having a microbio and clinical background equips me with more skills to do what I want to do.
With that said thank you for the help.
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starvinghooker
Voyager



Registered: 04/16/23
Posts: 540
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: thirdeyewild] 1
#28474773 - 09/19/23 10:05 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Thank you, sir. You relieved me of that horrible feeling of having a word at the pointy end of your brain that for whatever reason won't cross over to the talky part of your mouth. For your kindness, you get a cookie. It looks a lot like a light bulb, but these bakers are doing crazy shit these days.
-------------------- Grab life by the balls and yank on 'em til everything you want comes gushing out in thick, creamy ribbons
Noob like me? Start here!
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Shroomery
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HumbleDragon
Stranger


Registered: 04/19/22
Posts: 50
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Quote:
Zav3r said: I'm pretty sure it's not contaminated. Yes it's not even growth but that could be just the way the myc grows. Even after the transfers the myc is growing really well in the grain jars.
That's why I'm saying I've done everything well up to the fruiting conditions. I appreciate the feedback but also some feedback also feels like it's not applicable to the situation.
Of course the myc is growing well in the jar of food you put it in...
But on topic - my first grow was a shoebox left in my basement and forgotten about. They pushed that lid right off.
Every other shoebox after that(and I do mean shoe sized box[vans at best]not 3 pairs of shoes) has been kind of underwhelming.
Every unmodified mono that I've done with(absolutely) questionable spawn has worked out great.
Also when I say absolutely, some of the first ones looked ABSOLUTELY like the jars you're trying to debate with the people who have done hundreds - thousands of jars.... They were bacterial. They are always bacterial.
Just because it works and its white doesn't make it right. #Murica
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RockinRobot
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: HumbleDragon] 1
#28475218 - 09/19/23 04:26 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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I Originally planned to run Monotubs but had spawn issues with my first attempt so went Shoebox. After growing way more than I can consume in a year in Shoeboxes I never upsized and probably never will. Don't need to worry about losing a tub because 1 of 4 jars have contam. 1 jar 1 Shoebox = easier for me and less losses if something does contam.
I do prefer the purple handled 6Qt Sterlite tubs though as they have the most options for FAE.
Edited by RockinRobot (09/19/23 04:28 PM)
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BeefSupremeJr
Detritivore



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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r]
#28475258 - 09/19/23 04:54 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zav3r said: Thank you. I don't know if I can do bacterial isolation. it's possible with the right antifungal. I have access to the antifungal. I think exploring this avenue of study can open up other ways we can make sure spawn is clean. This is a learning process. You're not sure if there is contamination so you check. I think that's a pretty simple and healthy way to go about understanding your methods. A lot of things here in shroomery are about checking your work, testing if something works or doesn't work. I think I and everyone here for that matter have the liberty to "test" their theories with appropriate guidance of course. I think having a microbio and clinical background equips me with more skills to do what I want to do.
With that said thank you for the help.
go ahead and put a few samples of that grain on agar. I would say break it and shake it and let it sit for a few days before taking a sample but there ain't no way that mess is going to break up. still, I feel confident that you are going to see a mess on plate
Edited by BeefSupremeJr (09/19/23 04:57 PM)
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thirdeyewild



Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 1,376
Loc:
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https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28476180#28476180
Apparently now he is a physician.
Don't you love it when people are so desperate to tell you how great they are?
--------------------
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Mycolorado
Hobbyist


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Stipe-n Cap
The Pride of Cucamonga


Registered: 08/04/12
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BeefSupremeJr
Detritivore



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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 2
#28476404 - 09/20/23 01:36 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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its always the guys with fucked up grows flexing their education. seems to be a correlation anyway.
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Zav3r
Stranger

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I’m just trying to help someone
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Zav3r
Stranger

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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r]
#28477152 - 09/20/23 08:51 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Hey guys. Feel free to message me so we can talk about this more. I'm more than happy to talk to you guys about this. I don't like it being out here in the open. If you have questions about my post somewhere else pls feel free to PM me and we can go on a lengthy discussion about alcohol use, alcohol withdrawal, psilocybin use for the above conditions etc... I would be more than happy to shed some light into this in the hopes of helping other people with misinformation. Thanks a lot.
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Mycolorado
Hobbyist


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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r] 3
#28477183 - 09/20/23 09:09 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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xVadisx
MountainsDogsAndFungi



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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Mycolorado]
#28477216 - 09/20/23 09:50 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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-------------------- Thanks to everyone for sharing what they know . 165F for 24hrs.
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BeefSupremeJr
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r] 4
#28477250 - 09/20/23 10:59 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zav3r said: Hey guys. Feel free to message me so we can talk about this more. I'm more than happy to talk to you guys about this. I don't like it being out here in the open. If you have questions about my post somewhere else pls feel free to PM me and we can go on a lengthy discussion about alcohol use, alcohol withdrawal, psilocybin use for the above conditions etc... I would be more than happy to shed some light into this in the hopes of helping other people with misinformation. Thanks a lot.
you realize some of us have been doing this for nearly 20 years? You realize that many of us came here to find help with drug and alcohol abuse? You were already giving unsolicited all-caps advice to someone in a three week old thread and were asked to get back in your lane. I am sorry but your posts smack of arrogance. Just talk to us like we are also adults with experience and educations please and step on the gas pedal and arrive at the point that you are trying to privately drive us to.
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jay.ach
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: B Traven]
#28477346 - 09/21/23 05:18 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
B Traven said: Lately, I've been enjoying the ability to scoop up the entire substrate from a shoebox and drop it into a larger tub, basically turning it into a giant PF cake.
Holy F! That is worth the price of admission right there. That is going on the list of things to try
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stockw

Registered: 08/31/21
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: jay.ach]
#28477409 - 09/21/23 07:48 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
jay.ach said:
Quote:
B Traven said: Lately, I've been enjoying the ability to scoop up the entire substrate from a shoebox and drop it into a larger tub, basically turning it into a giant PF cake.
Holy F! That is worth the price of admission right there. That is going on the list of things to try
Yeah this has been on my mind... That & the other idea of taking 2 g2g transfers from every jar of spawn you have before spawning.
How much success have you had with this B Traven? I've got quite a few shoes (Nats) that are finishing 2nd flush currently & I'm tempted to give it a try.
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Kinoko314
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: stockw] 2
#28477421 - 09/21/23 08:10 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
stockw said:
Quote:
jay.ach said:
Quote:
B Traven said: Lately, I've been enjoying the ability to scoop up the entire substrate from a shoebox and drop it into a larger tub, basically turning it into a giant PF cake.
Holy F! That is worth the price of admission right there. That is going on the list of things to try
Yeah this has been on my mind... That & the other idea of taking 2 g2g transfers from every jar of spawn you have before spawning.
How much success have you had with this B Traven? I've got quite a few shoes (Nats) that are finishing 2nd flush currently & I'm tempted to give it a try.
It works well. I had a bunch of side pins, so I flipped the substrate and put it in another tub. There is perlite at the bottom, but it's still filled like a water tub. I don't have racks to spare at the moment.

FYI the pool of water is fresh, and it absorbed soon after.
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B Traven
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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: Zav3r] 1
#28477493 - 09/21/23 09:50 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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I need to get some good pictures the next time I do it...
I've had pretty good success with it. There are typically two reasons why I do it, sometimes overlapping.
As long as I have good pinsets on the surface, I don't worry much about side pins. Which is probably why I don't do much to avoid them in my spawning techniques. And some of the genetics I'm running just pin everywhere all the time. Sometimes I'll get a shoebox with A LOT of side pins, and putting the substrate into a larger container gives them room to develop properly.
Shoeboxes are front and center for me, but I've only got so many of them. When I want to free up space for more spawn, or just free up tubs when I have some time to do dishes, I can move my older substrates into the larger tubs. I can fit 2 into my larger tubs (the big flat ones used for dub tubs) with ample room for side pin development, or 3 if they're really packed in. Then I'll have a stack of those on the top of my shelving unit.
Older substrates eventually run out of water and crap out. Being able to mist 5 sides at once sort of acts like a quasi-soak on older subs.
In terms of yields and growing conditions, it's been equal to or better than keeping them in the shoeboxes (sometimes better when I've got the bionic side-pin thing). But I guess the real value to me is how it helps me manage my containers/space.
But also, it's just fun. Good spawn is very malleable, and it's boring to always do the same thing...
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thirdeyewild



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Re: Monotub vs Shoebox Question. [Re: B Traven] 1
#28477500 - 09/21/23 09:56 AM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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I often do this for the second flush. Especially for Nats that seem to want to side pin like crazy for me. Sometimes the 2nd flush has been better than the 1st.
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