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solarshroomster
Wonderer



Registered: 11/01/13
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Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? 1
#28456832 - 09/03/23 08:59 AM (4 months, 22 days ago) |
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I wrote a post while stoned about "seeing" the ineffable.
I wanted to create a dictionary of the ineffable, and I was going to propose the word "shpongled' as the first word to the dictionary. It means experiencing time in a layered way, such that there is "frame stacking" between events in reality's point of experience known as "you", "I", "me". It means experiencing asynchronous time, in other words.
I deleted the post, because I felt like it's not a good idea to write a dictionary on the ineffable (at least not without caution). The ineffable is, by definition, a contradiction -- impossible to explain, impossible to describe and therefore lacks definition. One can attempt, but it's all metaphorical attempts.
In any event, my question: is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? Should one ever try to explain the ineffable?
Or is it implicit knowledge?
Or is it, Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent?
It just feels like this:
Quote:
Ideasthesia (wikipedia): While synesthesia meaning 'union of senses' implies the association of two sensory elements with little connection to the cognitive level, empirical evidence indicated that most phenomena linked to synesthesia are in fact induced by semantic representations. That is, the linguistic meaning of the stimulus is what is important rather than its sensory properties. In other words, while synesthesia presumes that both the trigger (inducer) and the resulting experience (concurrent) are of sensory nature, ideasthesia presumes that only the resulting experience is of sensory nature while the trigger is semantic.[2][3][4][5][6][7]
Research has later extended the concept to topics other than synesthesia, and since it turned out to be applicable to everyday perception, the concept has developed into a theory of how we perceive. For example ideasthesia has been applied to the theory of art and could bear important implications in explaining human conscious experience, which, according to ideasthesia, is grounded in how we activate concepts.[8]
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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solarshroomster
Wonderer



Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 506
Last seen: 3 days, 23 hours
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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: solarshroomster] 1
#28456837 - 09/03/23 09:01 AM (4 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: Where'd it go? What happened?
I saw, the thread of the ineffable, disappeared.
Does the frog who looks beyond know not the secret of the pond?
frOg pOnd plOp!
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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WhoManBeing
PsychedelicYogi



Registered: 09/01/13
Posts: 3,773
Loc: Oregon
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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28456849 - 09/03/23 09:05 AM (4 months, 22 days ago) |
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Have you seen Everything, Everywhere At Once?
Think that hits what you getting at too.
-------------------- Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!! Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
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solarshroomster
Wonderer



Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 506
Last seen: 3 days, 23 hours
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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28456858 - 09/03/23 09:08 AM (4 months, 22 days ago) |
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I got the sense last night that language was like a way of communicating. And the ability for us to connect depends on how much resolution of language we give to one another. Like, cats understand what their symbology means between one another, and humans understand the symbology between one another. We can somewhat understand cats' language, but it's not perfect, so there's always that disconnect. The ability for us to connect with one another, in some sense, depends on us developing a
universal language
that connects sender to receiver.
My interest in writing a dictionary of the ineffable was my attempt to make a universal language that allowed others access to the impossible dimensions of the mind. But, I think, this endeavor is ultimately impossible, so I don't know. I'm not the great one to do it. Either way, I am in love with the mystical dimension. I feel like I constantly need to "prove" it, but it's always there. It's always there.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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Buster_Brown
L'une


Registered: 09/17/11
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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: solarshroomster] 1
#28456933 - 09/03/23 09:49 AM (4 months, 22 days ago) |
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I guess 'Ineffable' means that two points of view on the same subject can be irreconcilable.
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WhoManBeing
PsychedelicYogi



Registered: 09/01/13
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Loc: Oregon
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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: Buster_Brown]
#28456947 - 09/03/23 09:59 AM (4 months, 22 days ago) |
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Uh, duh…
I got the sense last night that language was like a way of communicating.
I’d steer clear for a bit of trying to make any substantial statements proclaiming anything of any intelligence and thinking to share as if he of benefit to others for a while, maybe change this thesis of yours, put on the back burner, heck, burn it all together.
For real, ‘got a sense of language…’
Ineffable; too great or extreme to be expressed or described in words.
Start painting! I think you may have just that artist touch of what makes a great artist. Encapsulating that of the ineffable using mediums. As for using language, by definition your paddling up a dry creek.
Language; the principal method of human communication, consisting of words used in a structured and conventional way and conveyed by speech, writing, or gesture.
Best of luck to ya.’
-------------------- Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!! Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
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solarshroomster
Wonderer



Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 506
Last seen: 3 days, 23 hours
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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: WhoManBeing]
#28456957 - 09/03/23 10:06 AM (4 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
WhoManBeing said: Uh, duh…
Sometimes, the most obvious things are the most incredible things, and the ones we miss.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
Posts: 2,696
Last seen: 6 minutes, 26 seconds
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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28457201 - 09/03/23 02:04 PM (4 months, 22 days ago) |
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"Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable?"
Of course! What would be offended? More of the same.
It seems what we have for the ineffable is expression. It is the inspiration that speaks to it. The inspiration is the body of it. "I am awake."
It doesn't need words and other manifestations, but see what has been done throughout history in inspired expression toward the ineffable. Is beauty apart from it? Is anything? Does it need distinction? I'm not lecturing, just streaming.
I saw your bringing up ideasthesia before, and didn't really grasp it, but today got it a little better looking at a talk and such. Intriguing in relating to the ineffable, the world.
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
Posts: 2,696
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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: syncro] 1
#28457221 - 09/03/23 02:25 PM (4 months, 22 days ago) |
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Look at how ridiculous is frog, pond, plop! But it won gold in expressing the ineffable.
And many words are fine too. Like minds will relate, and is it really for 'other' minds?
See spinvis catching flak for his lengthy quotes. I typically read them with care, and find them rich, a unique collection source, and a good adaptation of the quotes thread as I've meaning to mention somewhere. Nothing against the objection either.
Just gimmee, moar, although that can overload nevertheless.
Edited by syncro (09/03/23 08:15 PM)
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jack_straw2208
Doctor



Registered: 02/12/07
Posts: 3,115
Loc: Earth
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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28457325 - 09/03/23 03:43 PM (4 months, 22 days ago) |
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Hey, simple reminder, it is ill-advised to try to eff the ineffable. I mean it's in the name.
-------------------- If you can’t tell what you desperately need, it’s probably sleep.
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: jack_straw2208]
#28457613 - 09/03/23 07:42 PM (4 months, 22 days ago) |
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Abstraction can explain everything..
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
Posts: 2,696
Last seen: 6 minutes, 26 seconds
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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: jack_straw2208]
#28457645 - 09/03/23 08:06 PM (4 months, 22 days ago) |
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"'All art is erotic in its essence...', exclaimed Picasso. Tantra goes further, for according to its philosophy all experiences are considered erotic in their essence. Perhaps the Vedic encounter of Kamadeva (Eros) with Shiva helps to understand the concept and allows to see it in a new light. In his attempt to slay Shiva's heart with his magic love-arrow Kamadeva awoke Shiva from meditation. In his fury Shiva did as little as pulverized the lesser god with the gaze of his third eye. Shiva's spouse, Parvati, worried that the Universe would be deprived of Love whose agent Eros was, has interfered begging Shiva to show mercy. So the Lord did, letting Eros live as the vapor of Cosmic dust forever mingling at the heart of matter... The original act of Creation is being replicated again and again... each time the hidden arrow hits the target of your heart followed by the union of the senses with the object of desire..." Kufayev
An emphasis is that the Ambrosia takes form as nectar and also poison, the latter associated with the loss of energy, this also relating to the cycles of nectar and decline we talk about. The secret is in however done, learning to realize the nectar, especially in the initiation of decline, by holding to the absolute rather than that which is in the typical implications, attachments, of the union and dissolution.
In other words, said Kufayev iirc, always remain in orgasm, of course not physiologically per se, but in that open ecstacy of Eros.
This to me parallels the teaching that only infinite patience produces immediate results, remaining wide open to the ineffable, the expectant gaze to the infinitude, as the child in every right demanding the parent lift them up. "Well, Ineffable?" tapping the foot. Perhaps that is not so much an example of patience but you see what I mean. It is having no doubt.
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
Posts: 2,696
Last seen: 6 minutes, 26 seconds
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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: syncro]
#28457858 - 09/04/23 12:15 AM (4 months, 22 days ago) |
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More apt than Eros I think is Ananda, bliss, one of the trinity of absolute natures, where Eros as said is a lesser god though all about here and in like natures. The unspeakable love, divine love nor compassion, the loving kindness, I don't think would be said to be Eros.
So Jack may be right in that sense.
Edited by syncro (09/04/23 01:04 AM)
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jack_straw2208
Doctor



Registered: 02/12/07
Posts: 3,115
Loc: Earth
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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: syncro] 4
#28457860 - 09/04/23 12:19 AM (4 months, 22 days ago) |
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I knew a dude took too many mushrooms and thought he could try to get a read on the ineffable, 10 second later, two dudes in black suits with black glasses escorted him into a Lincoln and he was never seen again!
-------------------- If you can’t tell what you desperately need, it’s probably sleep.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: jack_straw2208]
#28459287 - 09/05/23 09:18 AM (4 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
solarshroomster said: I wrote a post while stoned about "seeing" the ineffable.
I wanted to create a dictionary of the ineffable, and I was going to propose the word "shpongled' as the first word to the dictionary. It means experiencing time in a layered way, such that there is "frame stacking" between events in reality's point of experience known as "you", "I", "me". It means experiencing asynchronous time, in other words.
I deleted the post, because I felt like it's not a good idea to write a dictionary on the ineffable (at least not without caution). The ineffable is, by definition, a contradiction -- impossible to explain, impossible to describe and therefore lacks definition. One can attempt, but it's all metaphorical attempts.
In any event, my question: is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? Should one ever try to explain the ineffable?
Or is it implicit knowledge?
Or is it, Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent?
It just feels like this:
Quote:
Ideasthesia (wikipedia): While synesthesia meaning 'union of senses' implies the association of two sensory elements with little connection to the cognitive level, empirical evidence indicated that most phenomena linked to synesthesia are in fact induced by semantic representations. That is, the linguistic meaning of the stimulus is what is important rather than its sensory properties. In other words, while synesthesia presumes that both the trigger (inducer) and the resulting experience (concurrent) are of sensory nature, ideasthesia presumes that only the resulting experience is of sensory nature while the trigger is semantic.[2][3][4][5][6][7]
Research has later extended the concept to topics other than synesthesia, and since it turned out to be applicable to everyday perception, the concept has developed into a theory of how we perceive. For example ideasthesia has been applied to the theory of art and could bear important implications in explaining human conscious experience, which, according to ideasthesia, is grounded in how we activate concepts.[8]
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_ 🧠 _
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: jack_straw2208]
#28459292 - 09/05/23 09:19 AM (4 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
jack_straw2208 said: I knew a dude took too many mushrooms and thought he could try to get a read on the ineffable, 10 second later, two dudes in black suits with black glasses escorted him into a Lincoln and he was never seen again!
u knew Neo
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FishOilTheKid
Ascended



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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: redgreenvines]
#28459302 - 09/05/23 09:38 AM (4 months, 20 days ago) |
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Blue Cthulhu
Undefined


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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: FishOilTheKid] 1
#28459538 - 09/05/23 01:28 PM (4 months, 20 days ago) |
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It is forbidden.
-------------------- "Things are true that I forget, but no one taught that to me yet." A disembodied-re-embodied consciousness be-ing (With all the accoutrements.)
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connectedcosmos
Neti Neti



Registered: 02/07/15
Posts: 7,426
Loc: The Pathless Path
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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: Blue Cthulhu]
#28459583 - 09/05/23 02:21 PM (4 months, 20 days ago) |
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No matter if you try or not try you are explaining the ineffable
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 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
Posts: 2,696
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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: connectedcosmos]
#28459806 - 09/05/23 06:20 PM (4 months, 20 days ago) |
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How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Corinthians 12:4
Quote:
Unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.—The first two words present the tone of a paradox—speech unspeakable, or utterances unutterable. The verb in the second clause hovers between the text, “it is not lawful” and “it is not possible.” The hymns which St. John records in Revelation 4:8-9; Revelation 5:12-14; Revelation 7:12; Revelation 15:3, may give us some faint approach to what dwelt in St. Paul’s memory and yet could not be reproduced. Sounds of ineffable sweetness, bursts of praise and adoration, hallelujahs like the sound of many waters, voices low and sweet as those of children, whispers which were scarcely distinguishable from silence and yet thrilled the soul with a rapturous joy—this we may, perhaps, think of as underlying St. Paul’s language. In the mystic ecstatic utterances of the Tongues—themselves needing an interpreter, and helping little to build up those who heard them, though they raised the life of those who spoke with them to a higher level—we may, perhaps, trace some earthly echoes of that heavenly music.
Edited by syncro (09/07/23 08:00 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: syncro]
#28459884 - 09/05/23 07:19 PM (4 months, 20 days ago) |
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what about that which is eff?
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connectedcosmos
Neti Neti



Registered: 02/07/15
Posts: 7,426
Loc: The Pathless Path
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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: redgreenvines]
#28460168 - 09/06/23 02:44 AM (4 months, 20 days ago) |
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What in the eff is the discussion about again
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 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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solarshroomster
Wonderer



Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 506
Last seen: 3 days, 23 hours
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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: jack_straw2208]
#28461846 - 09/07/23 07:36 PM (4 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
jack_straw2208 said: I knew a dude took too many mushrooms and thought he could try to get a read on the ineffable, 10 second later, two dudes in black suits with black glasses escorted him into a Lincoln and he was never seen again!
I report this is a "real" guy who lived..!!
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,555
Loc: Utah
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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28462023 - 09/08/23 12:42 AM (4 months, 18 days ago) |
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Nothing is ineffable.
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: nooneman]
#28462033 - 09/08/23 01:33 AM (4 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said: Nothing is ineffable.
More than anything to notice this.
If something exists..
Than it can be explained?
Or is it explaining itself as it is?
Curiosity vs doubt..
Which ^ has more priority in your mind?
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



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Posts: 16,666
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: Is it okay to try to explain the ineffable? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28464275 - 09/10/23 11:55 AM (4 months, 15 days ago) |
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It is conditionally ineffable, based on the level of reasoning, with which you are dealing.
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