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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



Registered: 01/11/05
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Re: Hot take: America should abandon the party system fully and entirely [Re: rxb]
#28455260 - 09/01/23 06:30 PM (4 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
rxb said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Direct democracy sucks.
examples? hell you could even elaborate.
or do you mean just like... "chocolate cake sucks"
id like to discuss where you are coming from with this.
how many forms of it have you experienced?
Its not like this is my "hot take"
1. Instability 2. Indecisive 3. Manipulation
These are all hallmarks. Or do I need to elaborate?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



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Re: Hot take: America should abandon the party system fully and entirely [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28455268 - 09/01/23 06:36 PM (4 months, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Direct democracy sucks.
Did the people we cede our autonomy to tell you that
They don't need too. Why would they? Please be specific.
There are plenty of historical, and current examples why this is flawed (more than a representative one)
I have read very similar articles, books etc, that echo this. I have yet to actually experience it, to the level of being knee deep.... -but- ... I have yet to experince living in a failed state, as well.
https://sanjosespotlight.com/vargas-californias-experiment-with-direct-democracy-has-failed/
For more than a century, California has been an experiment in a form of direct democracy, giving “the people” unparalleled and extensive power to shape their laws and rebuke their politicians through initiatives, referendums and recalls.
Just 5% of Californians working together can force a proposition onto the ballot, a referendum on a piece of legislation or an (insanely expensive) recall election of the governor of the state. In an off-year election, that ballot measure can then be passed by significantly less than a majority of the voting population. No other people in the nation enjoy such power.
Predictably, this power has been used (and abused) in ways that have been devastating to vulnerable communities and lucrative to local plutocrats. Today, the poster child for that failure is the looming recall of Gov. Gavin Newsom, a recall election estimated to cost taxpayers a shocking $400 million.
Unlike Gov. Gray Davis, whose universal unpopularity led to a successful recall in 2003, Gavin Newsom is remarkably popular for a governor in the middle of a crisis. In the wake of the COVID-19 shut down, 59% of Californians approve of his handling of re-opening schools, 59% approve of his handling of the economy and 56% oppose the recall effort.
And yet we’re forced down this expensive path by one and a half million malcontents. Republicans are lining up to be the next Arnold Schwarzenegger, who was elected to replace Gray Davis by a bare plurality, one of three Republicans in the past 30 years to take the governor’s chair without a mandate from a majority of California voters.
Edited by SirTripAlot (09/01/23 07:42 PM)
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nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,555
Loc: Utah
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Re: Hot take: America should abandon the party system fully and entirely [Re: Benson]
#28455308 - 09/01/23 07:07 PM (4 months, 24 days ago) |
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Ranked choice actually just results in a one party system instead of a two party system. You end up with two Ds or two Rs at the top of the ticket and no real choice.
America is a two party system. People always suggest changing it, but it's not going to happen just because it's been this way for so long that it's never going to change. It is what it is at this point. Even if you had no parties, people would still band together along ideological lines, and you'd have the same end result even if no one put a D or an R next to their name. A rose by any other name...
I like direct democracy a lot, but it has its own problems. Frankly I'm just glad we don't live in a dictatorship. The majority of the world lives in a government way worse than ours, and ours isn't even exactly a shining example of democracy to begin with, think about that.
We have problems, but at least we know what they are and can talk about them and try to do something about them. A lot of people aren't even allowed to say that their government has problems or they'll end up in jail. Overall, at a day to day level, our country could be a lot worse. Never underestimate the ability for a country to be way worse than it is. I'm grateful for what we have.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,357
Loc: 'Merica
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Re: Hot take: America should abandon the party system fully and entirely [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28455734 - 09/02/23 08:23 AM (4 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Direct democracy sucks.
Did the people we cede our autonomy to tell you that
They don't need too. Why would they? Please be specific.
There are plenty of historical, and current examples why this is flawed (more than a representative one)
I have read very similar articles, books etc, that echo this. I have yet to actually experience it, to the level of being knee deep.... -but- ... I have yet to experince living in a failed state, as well.
https://sanjosespotlight.com/vargas-californias-experiment-with-direct-democracy-has-failed/
For more than a century, California has been an experiment in a form of direct democracy, giving “the people” unparalleled and extensive power to shape their laws and rebuke their politicians through initiatives, referendums and recalls.
Just 5% of Californians working together can force a proposition onto the ballot, a referendum on a piece of legislation or an (insanely expensive) recall election of the governor of the state. In an off-year election, that ballot measure can then be passed by significantly less than a majority of the voting population. No other people in the nation enjoy such power.
Predictably, this power has been used (and abused) in ways that have been devastating to vulnerable communities and lucrative to local plutocrats. Today, the poster child for that failure is the looming recall of Gov. Gavin Newsom, a recall election estimated to cost taxpayers a shocking $400 million.
Unlike Gov. Gray Davis, whose universal unpopularity led to a successful recall in 2003, Gavin Newsom is remarkably popular for a governor in the middle of a crisis. In the wake of the COVID-19 shut down, 59% of Californians approve of his handling of re-opening schools, 59% approve of his handling of the economy and 56% oppose the recall effort.
And yet we’re forced down this expensive path by one and a half million malcontents. Republicans are lining up to be the next Arnold Schwarzenegger, who was elected to replace Gray Davis by a bare plurality, one of three Republicans in the past 30 years to take the governor’s chair without a mandate from a majority of California voters.
I think direct democracy is a decent end goal, but as it stands most people are simply too stupid to vote for their own interests, or be able to adequately weigh decisions based on short to intermediate to long term interests.
The problem is our elected representatives do not represent our interests, but the interests of the ruling class. How do we change that?
By establishing a dictatorship of the proletariat, of course.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Hot take: America should abandon the party system fully and entirely [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28455977 - 09/02/23 12:04 PM (4 months, 23 days ago) |
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I know its the polar opposite of what most think, but I believe there should be more money in politics, not less. Unfortunately, in the real world money is a form of influence and speech and I see it as a definitive unmoving foundation within the politico...K street would still be functioning in a post apocalyptic wasteland.
More money coming from lower to middle working class, into PACs tailored to ther interests, or insert any lobbying/ caucus efforts. Imagine if just 15% of this segment tossed in $40, it would be a sizeable sum. Unions seem to manage with less money. I know this isn't the entire pie, but it's a slice.
Getting the right representation is a whole 'nother ball of wax but the above would give it a higher chance of success. Having voter participation at a higher level within the segment is paramount, as well. That still hovers just under 50%.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (09/02/23 12:09 PM)
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,357
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Re: Hot take: America should abandon the party system fully and entirely [Re: SirTripAlot] 2
#28456810 - 09/03/23 08:44 AM (4 months, 22 days ago) |
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Seems counterintuitive.
If I have all the resources, and you barely have any, why would you advocate a political system where representation is based on the amount of resources you have?
Sure, itd be nice if working people all gave billions of dollars to pro working class politicians, but working people don’t have that kind of money. Bernie Sanders built the biggest grassroots donation/canvassing army in U.S. history and couldn’t even win the primary in the “good guy” party.
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rxb
n00b-sabot



Registered: 08/24/13
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Re: Hot take: America should abandon the party system fully and entirely [Re: mushboy]
#28457254 - 09/03/23 02:54 PM (4 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
mushboy said: I’ve lived in parts of this country where direct democracy would more than likely lead to slavery.
yer a smart guy and you know that doesnt qualify for a variety of reasons.
im not sure why you came at me with this, you are better than this.
there no point in my arguing with you as we obviously have no basis on which to form even an opinion on the topic there are no examples of direct democracy failing.
it doesnt exist.
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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rxb
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Re: Hot take: America should abandon the party system fully and entirely [Re: rxb]
#28457266 - 09/03/23 03:03 PM (4 months, 22 days ago) |
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money changing politics is the equivalent of saying whomever can yell loudest wins the election.
if thats what you like its what you like.
ranked choice does not remove the 2 party system, whomever made you think that is an idiot and you should stop listening to them.
ranked choice would mean that in a presidential election we would vote for clinton sanders williamson biden etc... the other would vote for trump christy desantes scott romney etc.
in the end people in third parties would have a shot at winning... but one least worst person would win. and chances are whomever you ranked dead last would lose.
its more likely to create a 5 party system than a single party system. and thats good for democracy.
it would be alot more rational imo.
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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koods
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Re: Hot take: America should abandon the party system fully and entirely [Re: rxb]
#28457268 - 09/03/23 03:04 PM (4 months, 22 days ago) |
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Here ya go. Direct democracy is always a looming threat for minority rights
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_California_Proposition_8
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
Edited by koods (09/03/23 03:05 PM)
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rxb
n00b-sabot



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Posts: 9,482
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Re: Hot take: America should abandon the party system fully and entirely [Re: koods]
#28457298 - 09/03/23 03:18 PM (4 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: Here ya go. Direct democracy is always a looming threat for minority rights
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_California_Proposition_8
interesting argument. but ultimately wasnt an issue.checks and balances dont have to be removed so that could be ok.
also if that was actually a 1:1 comparison which it is not... i would simply say that its only one form. but it isnt even really a form of direct democracy.
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
Edited by rxb (09/03/23 03:19 PM)
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rxb
n00b-sabot



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Re: Hot take: America should abandon the party system fully and entirely [Re: rxb]
#28457304 - 09/03/23 03:25 PM (4 months, 22 days ago) |
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my best guess for what would be the best form of direct democracy would be
proxy democracy...
i give my vote to koods. koods votes for biden so both of our votes are assigned as biden.
i can look up who i voted for (or will be voting for)... if enough people have support behind them they can vote for themselves and all of their followers instantly vote their way.
at anytime (or within a certain time frame cool off period) you can change your proxy to anyone you like.
its easier to code than term limits and fixes idiotic representatives.
it could also help with situations like votes for thing that your party is against... for example we would have more rational laws on abortion and gun control if this system was in place because you would simply change your proxy or overide your proxy for that vote.
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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mushboy
modboy



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Re: Hot take: America should abandon the party system fully and entirely [Re: rxb]
#28457425 - 09/03/23 04:49 PM (4 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
rxb said: yer a smart guy
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rxb
n00b-sabot



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Re: Hot take: America should abandon the party system fully and entirely [Re: mushboy]
#28457440 - 09/03/23 05:01 PM (4 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
mushboy said:
Quote:
rxb said: yer a smart guy

+2 for the self own. i do think you are a smart person tho, i think that was a poor attempt at an arguement and you have done and said some pretty stupid things but all in all you seem to have a clue more often than not.
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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