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The Ecstatic
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The Official BRICS Discussion Thread
#28447180 - 08/26/23 09:08 AM (4 months, 30 days ago) |
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Could’ve sworn we had one of these already but I guess not. Let this be the place to discuss the emerging economic and trade alliance between Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa, and the implications therein.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRICS
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28447192 - 08/26/23 09:18 AM (4 months, 30 days ago) |
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I’ll go ahead and chime in with the latest news: the offering of decoder rings to six new nations at the BRICS summit in Johannesburg (Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Iran, Egypt, Ethiopia, and Argentina).

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/program/counting-the-cost/2023/8/26/brics-is-expanding-but-can-it-rebalance-the-world-order
With no official charter, it’s tough to say just what BRICS expects to achieve, or what its goals are. Informally, it is widely regarded as an alternative economic paradigm to the dominance of the U.S./EU/Japan. Brazil’s Lula de Silva has made multiple calls for a new global currency since his re-election, and that appears to be a major goal of the alliance.
With the group representing over half of global GDP, its power, although fledgling, may soon constitute a serious threat to the current global economic paradigm.
What are y’all’s thoughts? Growing power or paper tiger? Would nations like China be shooting themselves in the foot by diminishing the power of the dollar? Should the current order even be challenged, considering membership that includes unsavory, racist regimes like the gulf monarchies and Modi and the Hindutva in India? How does this growing alliance affect current crises like Ukraine?
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Ice9
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28447241 - 08/26/23 10:23 AM (4 months, 30 days ago) |
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My thoughts on BRICS -- All hot air and much ado about nothing UNLESS -
India and China adopt a common currency similar to the Euro and replace their currencies with it. This would end the dollars dominance of international trade and world reserve currency.
That won't ever happen though, as neither country wants to cede control over their own currencies, and it is a lack of trust that these two countries won't manipulate their currencies in ways harmful to others that prevent further adoption of them.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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koods
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: Ice9]
#28447247 - 08/26/23 10:28 AM (4 months, 30 days ago) |
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If there was going to be a currency to replace the dollar, it would have been the euro. It’s not gonna happen
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SirTripAlot
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28447288 - 08/26/23 11:05 AM (4 months, 30 days ago) |
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Its an uphill fight, I see no tangible way forward as most of this is a pipedream...its all planning at this stage. Are these respective countries going to drop thier own individual currencies? Are they goung to adopt something like the Euro? I havent seen shit regarding this.
If not, this doesn't seem like a currency at all but a back door payment processing scheme to avoid using the dollar. Ask Russia how getting around SWIFT is working out.Are they going to have a credit rating agency? An institution similar to the FED? If not, they will surely fail as this is a major tenant of ANY notable central banking system. There has to be command and control, so to speak.
I did read that they have made a "New Development Bank" for BRICs...they started giving out pretty aggressive loans. But guess where they had to borrow the money? Wall Street, i.e. in dollars....so the institution that was designed to de dollar the world, is now heavily dependent on the dollar itself? Turns out 2/3 of everything BRICs is because of the dollar itself....because of this:
"..... the New Development Bank was told that interest on any new loans could quadruple, and the premium the bank charges its members to borrow has doubled, shrinking loan disbursements to a trickle..."
https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/currencies/brics-bank-china-dollar-dominance-debt-ukraine-war-russia-dedollarization-2023-6
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (08/26/23 11:14 AM)
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koods
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28447314 - 08/26/23 11:29 AM (4 months, 30 days ago) |
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Argentina has 100% inflation and they just let them in?
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SirTripAlot
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: koods]
#28447329 - 08/26/23 11:48 AM (4 months, 30 days ago) |
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I guess, additionially Xi from the PRC, just skipped last week's BRICs meeting, abruptly. Looks like China is starting to feel their own economic heat, why bother with this payment processing scheme for the moment. Putin was even there, albeit virtually.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: koods]
#28447405 - 08/26/23 12:50 PM (4 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Ice9 said: My thoughts on BRICS -- All hot air and much ado about nothing UNLESS -
India and China adopt a common currency similar to the Euro and replace their currencies with it. This would end the dollars dominance of international trade and world reserve currency.
That won't ever happen though, as neither country wants to cede control over their own currencies, and it is a lack of trust that these two countries won't manipulate their currencies in ways harmful to others that prevent further adoption of them.
I’m not sure about won’t ever happen, but I agree that people dreaming about the yuan replacing the dollar as the global reserve currency aren’t being realistic at all, China has considerable control of their monetary system, they won’t give that up.
Quote:
koods said: If there was going to be a currency to replace the dollar, it would have been the euro. It’s not gonna happen
I think it’s more about competing with the dollar, not unilaterally replacing it. It would need to be a gradual transition or else everyone loses.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28447409 - 08/26/23 12:52 PM (4 months, 30 days ago) |
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Right now, most of BRICs existence is due to the dollar, as in not just competing with it, but brick and motar.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (08/26/23 12:53 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28447572 - 08/26/23 03:50 PM (4 months, 30 days ago) |
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Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said this about BRICS:
✔️ Inviting any Western country to BRICS or to a BRICS event is ruled out.
✔️ The most important criterion for joining BRICS is that a potential BRICS member should not use illegal sanctions measures against any member of the BRICS.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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primordialkraken
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28447575 - 08/26/23 03:53 PM (4 months, 30 days ago) |
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Personal opinion is worth nothing, but, the ushering of the CBDC. That's all.
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Sulfurshelfsean
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said this about BRICS:
✔️ Inviting any Western country to BRICS or to a BRICS event is ruled out.
✔️ The most important criterion for joining BRICS is that a potential BRICS member should not use illegal sanctions measures against any member of the BRICS.
Sounds like a scheme to get away from feeling the heat of war crimes...
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The Ecstatic
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What heat? Nobody is held responsible for war crimes. Sanctions are imposed in a way that ALWAYS benefits “the west.” That’s why they aren’t allowed in BRICS.
Cuba should join.
Unrelated: here’s a video of former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright saying the deaths of 500,000 children in a Iraq (in order to force Saddam to give up WMDs he didn’t have) is “worth it”
si=CAgz8et9JEqMinba
Nobody is held responsible for war crimes, and nobody is held responsible for the crimes perpetrated with the ostensible purpose of punishing war crimes.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28448804 - 08/27/23 04:26 PM (4 months, 29 days ago) |
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I remember the UN was willing to trade oil for food and such, the offer was declined.Are you saying that these 500,000 deaths was a result of war and sanctions? This study said those figures were fabricated.
https://gh.bmj.com/content/2/2/e000311
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#28448863 - 08/27/23 05:11 PM (4 months, 29 days ago) |
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Whether it was 500,000 deaths or not isn’t the point, it’s that the US government decided 500,000 children deaths is worth imposing the sanctions (again, to ostensibly get Saddam to give up WMDs he didn’t have).
Imagine if Putin said this, people would lose their fucking minds.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28448929 - 08/27/23 06:18 PM (4 months, 29 days ago) |
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I agree to an extent, but not near your scale; first, it was also the UN not just the US that imposed the sanctions. A follow up offer for food and supplies tried to minimize the damage in which, Iraq declined. That is also on them....and Iraq doubled down by inflating mortality rates among children.
Trying to tiptoe and say no innocent life was lost is ridiculous and is not my point. What arbitrary line is "good"? Eight thousand deaths? Five hundred? There would be zero sanctions if it was entirely based on the loss of one human life. "What about the children?" would stop any war, and in a perfect world, yes, that is preferable but we humans are known for our proclivity for violence.
What makes these sanctions less palatable is the intelligence failure that makes this war less "acceptable". For example,the WW1 food blockade of Germany via Britian caused alot of hunger and sickness, but is more "justified".
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Ice9
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#28449237 - 08/27/23 11:55 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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BRICS meeting ended with no agreement on a euro style currency and contradictory reasons for why
Seems what I said about India and China was prescient https://www.yahoo.com/news/brics-summit-ended-no-currency-045430858.html
Also
Quote:
As this dollar alternative was being discussed, data from SWIFT showed the greenback was used for a record 46% of foreign exchange payments via the communications system in July.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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SirTripAlot
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: Ice9]
#28449359 - 08/28/23 04:57 AM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Seems like BRICs has pushed more dollars to circulate through their loop.
Good job.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#28449368 - 08/28/23 05:38 AM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: I agree to an extent, but not near your scale; first, it was also the UN not just the US that imposed the sanctions. A follow up offer for food and supplies tried to minimize the damage in which, Iraq declined. That is also on them....and Iraq doubled down by inflating mortality rates among children.
Trying to tiptoe and say no innocent life was lost is ridiculous and is not my point. What arbitrary line is "good"? Eight thousand deaths? Five hundred? There would be zero sanctions if it was entirely based on the loss of one human life. "What about the children?" would stop any war, and in a perfect world, yes, that is preferable but we humans are known for our proclivity for violence.
What makes these sanctions less palatable is the intelligence failure that makes this war less "acceptable". For example,the WW1 food blockade of Germany via Britian caused alot of hunger and sickness, but is more "justified".
I think you’re still missing the point, which is that sanctions don’t work, and cause unnecessary suffering for innocent people.
Arguing that a facet of BRICS is to prevent this type of behavior is a scheme to get away with war crimes (war crimes that historically are not prevented by sanctions in any way) is bullshit. Even if you want to take the most cynical view and say that Russia et al simply want an alternative trade system not accountable to Western standards on war crimes (a standard which does not exist by the way), you still have to explain how sanctions prevent war crimes (they don’t). They only cause more human suffering.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28449369 - 08/28/23 05:42 AM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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If sanctions don't work, why is Russia trying to circumvent SWIFT?
It causes a clusterfuck for them, which is the point. Not every sanction works, but to make the blanket statement that they don't work at all, is not kosher.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (08/28/23 06:09 AM)
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: SirTripAlot] 2
#28449975 - 08/28/23 02:30 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: If sanctions don't work, why is Russia trying to circumvent SWIFT?
It causes a clusterfuck for them, which is the point. Not every sanction works, but to make the blanket statement that they don't work at all, is not kosher.
Unless Russia’s response is to end its invasion of Ukraine then it isn’t working.
The explicit purpose of economic sanctions is to force the affected party to relent. Russia clearly is not, they’d rather build a parallel global systems of transactions than relent. So yeah.
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The Blind Ass
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28449981 - 08/28/23 02:39 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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solid point(s)
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SirTripAlot
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28450009 - 08/28/23 02:57 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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So no. The response is to make it more difficult for the state to operate. Supply the war machine, financial stability, balance of trade, etc.If sanctions stopped most wars, one bullet would not be fired.
Let's not forget that this is not a unilaterial US action you seem to pose. The EU itself has thrown its hat in the ring. There is a consensus among nations for this.
Does the rouble losing 30% of its value make it easier or harder to conduct a war?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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koods
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28450014 - 08/28/23 03:01 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: If sanctions don't work, why is Russia trying to circumvent SWIFT?
It causes a clusterfuck for them, which is the point. Not every sanction works, but to make the blanket statement that they don't work at all, is not kosher.
Unless Russia’s response is to end its invasion of Ukraine then it isn’t working.
The explicit purpose of economic sanctions is to force the affected party to relent. Russia clearly is not, they’d rather build a parallel global systems of transactions than relent. So yeah.
Sanctions also make it harder for Russia to be successful. There’s no doubt that without sanctions and western support for Ukraine, Russia would have finished off Ukraine in a few months at most.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: koods] 1
#28450101 - 08/28/23 03:54 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: So no. The response is to make it more difficult for the state to operate. Supply the war machine, financial stability, balance of trade, etc.If sanctions stopped most wars, one bullet would not be fired.
Let's not forget that this is not a unilaterial US action you seem to pose. The EU itself has thrown its hat in the ring. There is a consensus among nations for this.
Does the rouble losing 30% of its value make it easier or harder to conduct a war?
Right so we agree that sanctions don’t work.
Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: If sanctions don't work, why is Russia trying to circumvent SWIFT?
It causes a clusterfuck for them, which is the point. Not every sanction works, but to make the blanket statement that they don't work at all, is not kosher.
Unless Russia’s response is to end its invasion of Ukraine then it isn’t working.
The explicit purpose of economic sanctions is to force the affected party to relent. Russia clearly is not, they’d rather build a parallel global systems of transactions than relent. So yeah.
Sanctions also make it harder for Russia to be successful. There’s no doubt that without sanctions and western support for Ukraine, Russia would have finished off Ukraine in a few months at most.
I would say western support for Ukraine amounts to 90+% of that. It’s not like the Russian government is just going to say “welp this is hurting the populace, I guess we should do what Washington says.”
DPRK, Iran, Cuba, some of the most heavily sanctioned states on the planet, and all it does is give their governments a bogeyman to blame the resulting instability on.
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gww
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28450118 - 08/28/23 04:05 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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On the other hand, those same sanctions make it where the western support means something to some of the other countries that might not care about the stuff iran or north korea does. Those countries may look at iran and say yes, not us if we have to decide who to snub. The ninty percent support you mention might have less meaning with out them.
Edited by gww (08/28/23 04:07 PM)
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SirTripAlot
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28450124 - 08/28/23 04:12 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Nice dodge.
Again, sanctions are not a zero sum game.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (08/28/23 04:12 PM)
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Ice9
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28450126 - 08/28/23 04:12 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: If sanctions don't work, why is Russia trying to circumvent SWIFT?
It causes a clusterfuck for them, which is the point. Not every sanction works, but to make the blanket statement that they don't work at all, is not kosher.
Unless Russia’s response is to end its invasion of Ukraine then it isn’t working.
The explicit purpose of economic sanctions is to force the affected party to relent. Russia clearly is not, they’d rather build a parallel global systems of transactions than relent. So yeah.
Sanctions are a tool of pressure. Alone, they won't make any country such as Russia, abandon a course of action. They do inhibit said course of action, which despite your claims, is the intention. Widespread sanctions shows the country against whom they are aimed, that the international community as whole condemns the behavior. It may not be super effective, but abandoning a tool simply because it is not blunt enough is foolish.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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SirTripAlot
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: Ice9]
#28450132 - 08/28/23 04:15 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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We all know wars are won or lost based solely on economic sanctions
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (08/28/23 04:16 PM)
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gww
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28450162 - 08/28/23 04:29 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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My understanding is that during world war 2 germany started with high production of war materials. We ramped up and then surpassed them. One of the reasons that was accomplished was because many of germany's trade got curtailed and ours did not. The only thing that that can be construed as is sanctions and it was the sanctions that held the out come. Even with them, it did not end in one year or instantaneous.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: gww]
#28450175 - 08/28/23 04:48 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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A very short commentary on why Saudi Arabia joining BRICS was a HUGE slap in the face to the United States.
si=8YaVXYdJ54z1NILp
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: gww] 1
#28450206 - 08/28/23 05:09 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
gww said: On the other hand, those same sanctions make it where the western support means something to some of the other countries that might not care about the stuff iran or north korea does. Those countries may look at iran and say yes, not us if we have to decide who to snub. The ninty percent support you mention might have less meaning with out them.
Well of course, that’s how it works in reality.
We punish the countries that won’t toe the line and other countries see that and react accordingly. It’s the same reason the mafia kills informants in a public place with 300 gunshot wounds.
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SirTripAlot said: Nice dodge.
Again, sanctions are not a zero sum game.
Never said they were.
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Ice9 said:
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The Ecstatic said:
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SirTripAlot said: If sanctions don't work, why is Russia trying to circumvent SWIFT?
It causes a clusterfuck for them, which is the point. Not every sanction works, but to make the blanket statement that they don't work at all, is not kosher.
Unless Russia’s response is to end its invasion of Ukraine then it isn’t working.
The explicit purpose of economic sanctions is to force the affected party to relent. Russia clearly is not, they’d rather build a parallel global systems of transactions than relent. So yeah.
Sanctions are a tool of pressure. Alone, they won't make any country such as Russia, abandon a course of action. They do inhibit said course of action, which despite your claims, is the intention. Widespread sanctions shows the country against whom they are aimed, that the international community as whole condemns the behavior. It may not be super effective, but abandoning a tool simply because it is not blunt enough is foolish.
The “international community” isn’t on board, and those that are, are typically only on board insofar as they don’t want us being punitive to them as well, as is the case with Iran. Even still, ostensible allies like India and UAE are doing business with Russia, in rubles.
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gww said: My understanding is that during world war 2 germany started with high production of war materials. We ramped up and then surpassed them. One of the reasons that was accomplished was because many of germany's trade got curtailed and ours did not. The only thing that that can be construed as is sanctions and it was the sanctions that held the out come. Even with them, it did not end in one year or instantaneous.
Germany lost because they didn’t have the level of imperial subjects the allies did. Same goes for Japan.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#28450207 - 08/28/23 05:11 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Don’t want to get this thread too derailed, so suffice to say that we all know (whether some want to admit it or not) that sanctions are almost always imposed because a country is doing something the West doesn’t like, it has zero basis in morality or international law or war crimes, seeing as how we partner with some of the most egregiously bloodthirsty actors on the planet.
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28450241 - 08/28/23 05:33 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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I agree that most times it is about power and not as much about morality. My opinion on ukrain is that we got lucky and are ending up on the side that is most moral.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28450250 - 08/28/23 05:40 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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The Ecstatic said:
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SirTripAlot said: Nice dodge.
Again, sanctions are not a zero sum game.
Never said they were.
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The Ecstatic said:
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SirTripAlot said: If sanctions don't work, why is Russia trying to circumvent SWIFT?
It causes a clusterfuck for them, which is the point. Not every sanction works, but to make the blanket statement that they don't work at all, is not kosher.
Unless Russia’s response is to end its invasion of Ukraine then it isn’t working.
The explicit purpose of economic sanctions is to force the affected party to relent. Russia clearly is not, they’d rather build a parallel global systems of transactions than relent. So yeah.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (08/28/23 05:47 PM)
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28450259 - 08/28/23 05:47 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Welcome to the realm of implicit purposes, we’ve been expecting you.
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28450264 - 08/28/23 05:49 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Sure, that precisely what you meant.
"Unless Russia’s response is to end its invasion of Ukraine then it isn’t working."
No zero sum here.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (08/28/23 05:50 PM)
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#28450266 - 08/28/23 05:51 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Whatever dude I’m not going to argue semantics with you over the stated reasons of imposing sanctions.
We all know why they do it, we all know they never achieve the stated goals.
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28450272 - 08/28/23 05:54 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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We have clarity now, thats it. We don't agree, the opposite of what you stated.
Not all sanctions work, like Cuba. Has it made it hard for them? Fuck yes.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28450278 - 08/28/23 05:58 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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I will agree with you that most sanctions do originate from the West. When about 80% of all international transactions happen in dollars, that's far reaching.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (08/28/23 05:59 PM)
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28450280 - 08/28/23 05:59 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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koods
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: A very short commentary on why Saudi Arabia joining BRICS was a HUGE slap in the face to the United States.
si=8YaVXYdJ54z1NILp
The petrodollar isn’t a real thing. Countries can trade oil in whatever currency they want. The US is the worlds largest oil producer anyways. Middle eastern countries do not hold sway over the oil market like they once did.
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: koods] 1
#28461440 - 09/07/23 11:07 AM (4 months, 18 days ago) |
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https://finance.yahoo.com/news/dollar-set-longest-rally-years-142338083.html
(Bloomberg) -- The US dollar extended its gains, sending the currency toward its longest rally in years as the strength of the economy fuels speculation the Federal Reserve will keep interest rates elevated.
The expectation is drawing money into the US as investors seek higher rates than they can get in Europe and Asia, exerting upward pressure on the dollar.
The Bloomberg Dollar Spot Index, which is heavily weighted against the euro and yen, edged up Thursday, extending a three-day advance that’s pushed it up nearly 1%. That’s put it on track for its eighth weekly gain, the longest since the index begins in January 2005. The ICE dollar index has seen a similar jump, leaving it poised for the longest advance in 9 years.
The rally reflects the fissures that are opening in the global economy, with reports signaling that the US economy is accelerating even as growth cools in Europe and China and markets anticipate rate cuts in the developing world.
The gap was underscored on Wednesday, when the ISM service-sector index for August rose to a six-month high, bolstered by a pickup in new orders and hiring. On Thursday, initial claims for unemployment benefits unexpectedly fell to the lowest since February.
“Right now, the US economy is so resilient and the European data are so soft, it’s a recipe for dollar-strength overshoot,” Societe Generale strategist Kit Juckes said.
A widely-followed estimate produced by the Atlanta Fed shows the US economy is expanding 5.6% on an annualized basis this quarter. That’s leading economists to expect that central bank officials will double their growth projection for 2023 when they publish an updated outlook later this month and scale back estimates for interest-rate cuts next year.
As a result of the growth, markets are pricing in that interest rates in the US will remain above those in the euro-zone and many other major economies.
“We definitely have a combination of global growth weakening, particularly in Europe, followed by China — and then we’ve got what appears to be resilience in the US economy,” Matthew Hornbach, global head of macro strategy at Morgan Stanley, said on Bloomberg Television. “The rate differential story does benefit the US dollar.”
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#28461459 - 09/07/23 11:49 AM (4 months, 18 days ago) |
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Dollar isn’t going away anytime soon and anyone that thinks it is is fooling themselves.
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28461649 - 09/07/23 03:54 PM (4 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Dollar isn’t going away anytime soon and anyone that thinks it is is fooling themselves.
hubris about stability is my absolute favorite guilty pleasure.
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28461663 - 09/07/23 04:09 PM (4 months, 18 days ago) |
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Although I would not invest or back BRICs, it would be hypocrisy for me to shun competition, that said, short of the US defaulting/ nuclear holocaust type stuff, I don't see how any currency could overtake the greenback.
If anyone has a scenario, I would be willing to listen.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28461729 - 09/07/23 05:26 PM (4 months, 18 days ago) |
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Circumstances would have to change DRASTICALLY.
Even in some scenario where BRICS becomes a formidable trade alliance and some new currency begins to chip away at the USD, doesn’t matter, the dollar is staying the reserve currency because the nations with all the spending power are using it, and won’t opt for an alternative.
Europe would have to collapse and get saved by Russia and China or some shit for the dollar to be legitimately threatened.
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28462125 - 09/08/23 06:15 AM (4 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Dollar isn’t going away anytime soon and anyone that thinks it is is fooling themselves.
Yeah, our day of reckoning has to come at some point but it probably is going to be a long time.
No economist here, but I'm guessing it would have to happen incrementally over the long term, rather than one U.S. crisis. The reason being that our crisis would more or less be everyone else's crisis, and probably wouldn't set the stage for huge shifts in the order of things. Currently other major economies such as China and Germany have problems much worse than ours. I hate to sound confident in our market manipulations, but somehow they're working better than expected.
BRICS is a logical response to Western domination, but there are so many arguments against them putting up a unified opposition. The U.S. took over the world economy with a postwar boom, shared political philosophy and a military alliance. BRICS has none of those. They have a stated objective to replace the U.S. dollar as the reserve currency, but what else do they agree on? China, Russia and Iran want it to be an explicitly anti-Western alliance, while many other members just want a better deal with any trading partner including the U.S. Two of the first five expressed reservations about expansion because it diminishes their relative importance.
IMO the biggest issue, not previously mentioned is that the members are in competition with each other beyond agreeing to cooperate. The two big economies in BRICS, China and India are major trading partners and killing each other on border clashes. Not likely to escalate further but ongoing conflict even this week. With India's world's fastest growing economy and China's stagnation, wouldn't we expect India to expand their ambitions beyond the previously expected #2 spot in the East. Even the previous projections had India surpassing China a few decades later. A new time table suggests increased competition. India always was good at strategies maximizing their benefit from foreign powers, such as playing off U.S. and USSR during the cold war. Their major problem with U.S. was our alliance with their hated enemy Pakistan. But now India is going to regard China as their major issue, and will deal with China and the U.S. to their best advantage. That's one major argument against BRICS unity.
Also, I'm going to strongly disagree with Chopsticks on Saudi Arabia and UAR. Until proven otherwise, they are still closer to being our allies than our enemies.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: Brian Jones]
#28462136 - 09/08/23 06:53 AM (4 months, 17 days ago) |
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The Saudi's buy so many weapons from the US that we decided to destroy two states that aren't them after 911. Sleepy Joe et al. released a report showing how close the Saudi's were to the attacks. Hint, it was close.
As usual, everything that comes out of Chops keyboard is the exact opposite of the truth. It's a truth barometer that reads in the negatives.
That said, fantastic review of why BRICS really doesn't make that much sense.
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: christopera]
#28462199 - 09/08/23 08:22 AM (4 months, 17 days ago) |
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The vikings pillaged europe with tribalist aggression.
Europe pillaged the world with colonial racist aggression.
The 0.1% included 99.9% of white people with the rest of the world to be pillaged as inferiors.
The Rest Of The World is no longer dazed by the suckerpunch they got, is getting up and starts fighting back, inluding more and more white people disenfranchized by a bigoted government not even interested in upholding their privilege.
Whichever presidential knee you vote for, left or right, its gonna be your groin getting knee'd.
Babylon falls in our time.
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: koods]
#28462921 - 09/09/23 01:54 AM (4 months, 16 days ago) |
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koods said: Argentina has 100% inflation and they just let them in?
My friend keeps ranting on about how he went to Argentina and is trading in his US dollars on the street and getting so much more money that he keeps telling us that Argentina is the place to go
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: christopera]
#28462990 - 09/09/23 05:41 AM (4 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
christopera said: The Saudi's buy so many weapons from the US that we decided to destroy two states that aren't them after 911. Sleepy Joe et al. released a report showing how close the Saudi's were to the attacks. Hint, it was close.
As usual, everything that comes out of Chops keyboard is the exact opposite of the truth. It's a truth barometer that reads in the negatives.
That said, fantastic review of why BRICS really doesn't make that much sense.
Our relationship with Saidi Arabia makes it look like they have some secret leverage over us beyond the oil money and regional stability. It's as though they obtain a new Epstein File every decade. We pretend to not notice their human rights violations, because hypocrisy is conditional, and they are a great asset.
9/11 is way beyond that for making exceptions. The FBI report on the investigation of Saudi involvement was 16 pages. The Hillary investigation had 800 pages. Hunter Biden's grows as we speak.
Bush and his father were oil people, but 8 years of Obama didn't make it an issue either. I don't believe 9/11 was an inside job but Saudi Arabia got preferential treatment while we were treating the attack like Pearl Harbor and hysterically damaging our economy for years.
Probably sex tapes. It always comes down to Marx or Freud.
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: Brian Jones]
#28600802 - 12/28/23 11:30 AM (30 days, 9 hours ago) |
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Still not looking good:
https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Russia-Iran-Officially-Ditch-US-Dollar-for-Trade.html
The global de-dollarization drive has been going on for years with BRIC countries and the so-called pariah states trying to ditch the American dollar in favor of other currencies.
Back in 2019, Putin declared that time was ripe to review the dollar’s role in trade. At that time, Russia and China considered switching to the euro, the world’s second most dominant currency, as an acceptable stalemate, with the ultimate goal being to use their own currencies.
Earlier in the current year, Russia paid dividends from the Sakhalin 1 and 2 oil projects in Chinese yuan instead of the dollar. Last year, Russia was cut off from the US dollar-dominated global payments systems following sweeping sanctions off the Ukraine war.
Russia has declared it will no longer accept the American currency as payment for its energy commodities but will instead switch to Chinese and Emirati currencies.
However, global de-dollarization efforts have borne little fruit with the vast majority of cross-border transactions involving BRICS members continuing to be invoiced in dollars. Indeed, exchanging BRICS members’ local currencies with each other and with other emerging market currencies frequently requires using the dollar as an intermediary.
Further, a large share of public and private debt in these economies is dollar denominated. The relative stability of the dollar compared to many local currencies makes it more attractive as a medium of payment in cross-border trade. The dollar’s widespread use in these cases has become self-reinforcing, thus preserving its dominant global role and impeding efforts to de-dollarize.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28601281 - 12/28/23 05:37 PM (30 days, 3 hours ago) |
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Hilarious
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28601771 - 12/29/23 03:39 AM (29 days, 17 hours ago) |
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I'm not taking bets on the long-term dominance of the American dollar, but I'm not seeing anything looking good for the alternatives either. The number of countries that show up at a BRICS conference means nothing unless something real happens.
China was supposed to lead this with their economic surge but that's dead in the water. Some non-Western economies are reacting to China's decline and others never wanted to be in China's orbit either.
India (who I have no problem with) tried to do big international deals with their rupee and got no takers.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: Brian Jones] 1
#28601908 - 12/29/23 07:31 AM (29 days, 13 hours ago) |
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I think the biggest war in history will commence if the US dollar is ever truely threatened as the world's reserve currency. Think of the home court advantage our businesses have when marketing goods overseas (our government,too), sanctions would mean nothing if the dollar was not in the top spot. It's kinda scary AF.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (12/29/23 07:32 AM)
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28601965 - 12/29/23 08:53 AM (29 days, 12 hours ago) |
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yah i agree.
ive always thought the power of the dollar would kill us all before its replaced.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: mushboy]
#28603131 - 12/30/23 09:22 AM (28 days, 11 hours ago) |
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Depends on the level of psychopathy our leaders at that time have. Definitely not trending in an optimistic direction. Would we blow up the world rather than diminish? No other declining hegemon ever had the capability so you can’t really look at precedence, but the Dutch, Spanish, French, British all took it in stride.
I think capitalism would want to keep the game going, rather than flipping the table over, but these aren’t purely rational actors at the top, especially the morons they put into power to protect their interests. It would not be hard to convince Westerners that we have no choice but to nuke Beijing otherwise it’ll be white slavery.
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28603482 - 12/30/23 03:41 PM (28 days, 5 hours ago) |
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Argentina has withdrawn from BRICS.
Hilarious!
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: christopera]
#28604318 - 12/31/23 08:22 AM (27 days, 12 hours ago) |
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Argentina in the middle of Alt+F4’ing their entire state
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28604632 - 12/31/23 01:26 PM (27 days, 7 hours ago) |
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I wasn't putting much significance on the Argentina news either.
Separate countries (including most of the BRICS original members) are trying to substitute their currency in trade deals for specific commodities. Expect the number to grow but no word yet if it's successful for them, except conflicting media reports on India pushing their rupee as U.S. FED tightened policies and parts of the world have dollar shortages. These are interesting experiments but I'm still not following the how or why of BRICS collective plan. History will decide if I'm wrong, but still going with individual self interest over convincing most of the East that they can all be winners.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: Brian Jones]
#28604686 - 12/31/23 02:41 PM (27 days, 6 hours ago) |
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When I say "hilarious" I meant that it is ironic for those that believed BRICS was really going to gain momentum. Argentina owes like $30B to the IMF. I'm not certain I support the IMF, but where was BRICS? You'd think with their batshit crazy president they'd be full send for BRICS. Conversely, with BRICS trying to be an actual thing you'd think they'd be sending cash to anybody that would take it just to get a foothold.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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