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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: SirTripAlot] 2
#28449975 - 08/28/23 02:30 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: If sanctions don't work, why is Russia trying to circumvent SWIFT?
It causes a clusterfuck for them, which is the point. Not every sanction works, but to make the blanket statement that they don't work at all, is not kosher.
Unless Russia’s response is to end its invasion of Ukraine then it isn’t working.
The explicit purpose of economic sanctions is to force the affected party to relent. Russia clearly is not, they’d rather build a parallel global systems of transactions than relent. So yeah.
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The Blind Ass
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28449981 - 08/28/23 02:39 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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solid point(s)
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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SirTripAlot
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28450009 - 08/28/23 02:57 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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So no. The response is to make it more difficult for the state to operate. Supply the war machine, financial stability, balance of trade, etc.If sanctions stopped most wars, one bullet would not be fired.
Let's not forget that this is not a unilaterial US action you seem to pose. The EU itself has thrown its hat in the ring. There is a consensus among nations for this.
Does the rouble losing 30% of its value make it easier or harder to conduct a war?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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koods
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28450014 - 08/28/23 03:01 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: If sanctions don't work, why is Russia trying to circumvent SWIFT?
It causes a clusterfuck for them, which is the point. Not every sanction works, but to make the blanket statement that they don't work at all, is not kosher.
Unless Russia’s response is to end its invasion of Ukraine then it isn’t working.
The explicit purpose of economic sanctions is to force the affected party to relent. Russia clearly is not, they’d rather build a parallel global systems of transactions than relent. So yeah.
Sanctions also make it harder for Russia to be successful. There’s no doubt that without sanctions and western support for Ukraine, Russia would have finished off Ukraine in a few months at most.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: koods] 1
#28450101 - 08/28/23 03:54 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: So no. The response is to make it more difficult for the state to operate. Supply the war machine, financial stability, balance of trade, etc.If sanctions stopped most wars, one bullet would not be fired.
Let's not forget that this is not a unilaterial US action you seem to pose. The EU itself has thrown its hat in the ring. There is a consensus among nations for this.
Does the rouble losing 30% of its value make it easier or harder to conduct a war?
Right so we agree that sanctions don’t work.
Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: If sanctions don't work, why is Russia trying to circumvent SWIFT?
It causes a clusterfuck for them, which is the point. Not every sanction works, but to make the blanket statement that they don't work at all, is not kosher.
Unless Russia’s response is to end its invasion of Ukraine then it isn’t working.
The explicit purpose of economic sanctions is to force the affected party to relent. Russia clearly is not, they’d rather build a parallel global systems of transactions than relent. So yeah.
Sanctions also make it harder for Russia to be successful. There’s no doubt that without sanctions and western support for Ukraine, Russia would have finished off Ukraine in a few months at most.
I would say western support for Ukraine amounts to 90+% of that. It’s not like the Russian government is just going to say “welp this is hurting the populace, I guess we should do what Washington says.”
DPRK, Iran, Cuba, some of the most heavily sanctioned states on the planet, and all it does is give their governments a bogeyman to blame the resulting instability on.
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gww
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28450118 - 08/28/23 04:05 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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On the other hand, those same sanctions make it where the western support means something to some of the other countries that might not care about the stuff iran or north korea does. Those countries may look at iran and say yes, not us if we have to decide who to snub. The ninty percent support you mention might have less meaning with out them.
Edited by gww (08/28/23 04:07 PM)
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SirTripAlot
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28450124 - 08/28/23 04:12 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Nice dodge.
Again, sanctions are not a zero sum game.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (08/28/23 04:12 PM)
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Ice9
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28450126 - 08/28/23 04:12 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: If sanctions don't work, why is Russia trying to circumvent SWIFT?
It causes a clusterfuck for them, which is the point. Not every sanction works, but to make the blanket statement that they don't work at all, is not kosher.
Unless Russia’s response is to end its invasion of Ukraine then it isn’t working.
The explicit purpose of economic sanctions is to force the affected party to relent. Russia clearly is not, they’d rather build a parallel global systems of transactions than relent. So yeah.
Sanctions are a tool of pressure. Alone, they won't make any country such as Russia, abandon a course of action. They do inhibit said course of action, which despite your claims, is the intention. Widespread sanctions shows the country against whom they are aimed, that the international community as whole condemns the behavior. It may not be super effective, but abandoning a tool simply because it is not blunt enough is foolish.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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SirTripAlot
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: Ice9]
#28450132 - 08/28/23 04:15 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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We all know wars are won or lost based solely on economic sanctions
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (08/28/23 04:16 PM)
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gww
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28450162 - 08/28/23 04:29 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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My understanding is that during world war 2 germany started with high production of war materials. We ramped up and then surpassed them. One of the reasons that was accomplished was because many of germany's trade got curtailed and ours did not. The only thing that that can be construed as is sanctions and it was the sanctions that held the out come. Even with them, it did not end in one year or instantaneous.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: gww]
#28450175 - 08/28/23 04:48 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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A very short commentary on why Saudi Arabia joining BRICS was a HUGE slap in the face to the United States.
si=8YaVXYdJ54z1NILp
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: gww] 1
#28450206 - 08/28/23 05:09 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
gww said: On the other hand, those same sanctions make it where the western support means something to some of the other countries that might not care about the stuff iran or north korea does. Those countries may look at iran and say yes, not us if we have to decide who to snub. The ninty percent support you mention might have less meaning with out them.
Well of course, that’s how it works in reality.
We punish the countries that won’t toe the line and other countries see that and react accordingly. It’s the same reason the mafia kills informants in a public place with 300 gunshot wounds.
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Nice dodge.
Again, sanctions are not a zero sum game.
Never said they were.
Quote:
Ice9 said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: If sanctions don't work, why is Russia trying to circumvent SWIFT?
It causes a clusterfuck for them, which is the point. Not every sanction works, but to make the blanket statement that they don't work at all, is not kosher.
Unless Russia’s response is to end its invasion of Ukraine then it isn’t working.
The explicit purpose of economic sanctions is to force the affected party to relent. Russia clearly is not, they’d rather build a parallel global systems of transactions than relent. So yeah.
Sanctions are a tool of pressure. Alone, they won't make any country such as Russia, abandon a course of action. They do inhibit said course of action, which despite your claims, is the intention. Widespread sanctions shows the country against whom they are aimed, that the international community as whole condemns the behavior. It may not be super effective, but abandoning a tool simply because it is not blunt enough is foolish.
The “international community” isn’t on board, and those that are, are typically only on board insofar as they don’t want us being punitive to them as well, as is the case with Iran. Even still, ostensible allies like India and UAE are doing business with Russia, in rubles.
Quote:
gww said: My understanding is that during world war 2 germany started with high production of war materials. We ramped up and then surpassed them. One of the reasons that was accomplished was because many of germany's trade got curtailed and ours did not. The only thing that that can be construed as is sanctions and it was the sanctions that held the out come. Even with them, it did not end in one year or instantaneous.
Germany lost because they didn’t have the level of imperial subjects the allies did. Same goes for Japan.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#28450207 - 08/28/23 05:11 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Don’t want to get this thread too derailed, so suffice to say that we all know (whether some want to admit it or not) that sanctions are almost always imposed because a country is doing something the West doesn’t like, it has zero basis in morality or international law or war crimes, seeing as how we partner with some of the most egregiously bloodthirsty actors on the planet.
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gww
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28450241 - 08/28/23 05:33 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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I agree that most times it is about power and not as much about morality. My opinion on ukrain is that we got lucky and are ending up on the side that is most moral.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28450250 - 08/28/23 05:40 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Nice dodge.
Again, sanctions are not a zero sum game.
Never said they were.
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
SirTripAlot said: If sanctions don't work, why is Russia trying to circumvent SWIFT?
It causes a clusterfuck for them, which is the point. Not every sanction works, but to make the blanket statement that they don't work at all, is not kosher.
Unless Russia’s response is to end its invasion of Ukraine then it isn’t working.
The explicit purpose of economic sanctions is to force the affected party to relent. Russia clearly is not, they’d rather build a parallel global systems of transactions than relent. So yeah.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (08/28/23 05:47 PM)
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: SirTripAlot]
#28450259 - 08/28/23 05:47 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Welcome to the realm of implicit purposes, we’ve been expecting you.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28450264 - 08/28/23 05:49 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Sure, that precisely what you meant.
"Unless Russia’s response is to end its invasion of Ukraine then it isn’t working."
No zero sum here.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (08/28/23 05:50 PM)
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#28450266 - 08/28/23 05:51 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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Whatever dude I’m not going to argue semantics with you over the stated reasons of imposing sanctions.
We all know why they do it, we all know they never achieve the stated goals.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28450272 - 08/28/23 05:54 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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We have clarity now, thats it. We don't agree, the opposite of what you stated.
Not all sanctions work, like Cuba. Has it made it hard for them? Fuck yes.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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SirTripAlot
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Re: The Official BRICS Discussion Thread [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28450278 - 08/28/23 05:58 PM (4 months, 28 days ago) |
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I will agree with you that most sanctions do originate from the West. When about 80% of all international transactions happen in dollars, that's far reaching.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (08/28/23 05:59 PM)
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