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OfflineLucisM
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What are your thoughts on this line of thinking?
    #28441192 - 08/21/23 12:17 AM (5 months, 5 days ago)

I am not an atheist or a theist.  Both experiences arise from a state of consciousness so both can be correct based on the one having a particular experience.


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OfflineKmacmo
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Lucis] * 1
    #28441217 - 08/21/23 01:23 AM (5 months, 5 days ago)

Your experiences can make you believe things but that doesn't make your beliefs fact or true. It's just your best guess.
I don't believe anyone knows for a fact that there is a god or not a god its just peoples opinions


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Lucis] * 2
    #28441270 - 08/21/23 05:49 AM (5 months, 5 days ago)

I agree. If everything is a based in consciousness then of course deity exists, imo, but it doesn't need to be a thing for those not inclined.


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28441274 - 08/21/23 06:10 AM (5 months, 5 days ago)

Hermann Hesse - Siddhartha;
"For every true statement there is an opposite one that is also true; that language and the confines of time lead people to adhere to one fixed belief that does not account for the fullness of the truth. Because nature works in a self-sustaining cycle, every entity carries in it the potential for its opposite and so the world must always be considered complete.

. . .

In every truth the opposite is equally true. For example, a truth can only be expressed and enveloped in words if it is one-sided. Everything that is thought and expressed in words is one-sided, only half the truth; it all lacks totality, completeness, unity. When the Illustrious Buddha taught about the world, he had to divide it into Samsara and Nirvana, into illusion and truth, into suffering and salvation. One cannot do otherwise, there is no other method for those who teach. But the world itself, being in and around us, is never one-sided. Never is a man or a deed wholly Samsara or wholly Nirvana; never is a man wholly a saint or a sinner."


Hermann Hesse - Demian;
"We always limit our personality much too narrowly! We always count as pertaining to our person only what we recognize as individual differences that set us apart. But we’re comprised of everything that comprises the world, each of us, and just as our body bears within it the lines of evolutionary descent all the way back to the fish and even much farther beyond that, in the same way our soul contains everything that has ever dwelt in human souls. All the gods and devils that ever existed, whether among the Greeks, Chinese, or Zulus, are all inside us, they exist there as possibilities, as wishes, as ways of escape. If mankind died out except for a single halfway-gifted child that had received no education, that child would rediscover the whole course of events, it would be able to produce again the gods, demons, Edens, positive and negative commandments, the Old and the New Testament."


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Invisibleconnectedcosmos
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro]
    #28441276 - 08/21/23 06:11 AM (5 months, 5 days ago)

You can't have a theist without an atheist

:wink:

You have to exist and be sentient in order to have a belief at all , I like to think I build my philosophical viewpoints off that ground :lol:

Perspective plays a lot into this.. or truth / reality / fact ... those three are very loaded words :strokebeard:


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54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #28441344 - 08/21/23 07:50 AM (5 months, 5 days ago)

"For every true statement there is an opposite one that is also true"

"You can't have a theist without an atheist"

Does dependent origination counter these? The theism is more complicated, but as obscurations depend on the one, and not the reverse. Then the polarities would not represent the totality because one transcends them.

I was looking at antonyms of transcendence, and one came up, immanence, suggesting "that something is present within the very nature of things and is not separate from them."

Logical, yet missing? Implying that the polarities are not obscurations of, the same as, the one thing.


Edited by syncro (08/21/23 07:51 AM)


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OfflineAnattaAtman
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Lucis] * 3
    #28441481 - 08/21/23 09:11 AM (5 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Lucis said:
I am not an atheist or a theist.  Both experiences arise from a state of consciousness so both can be correct based on the one having a particular experience.




The definition of Truth is: That which works. This means there can be two different
truths about the same subject, when they both work. Theism seems to work for people like
Asannte, so that's okay. It doesn't work for me, though, so for me there is only one Truth,
which is buddhist atheism.


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro] * 2
    #28441564 - 08/21/23 10:32 AM (5 months, 4 days ago)

There's a coin, for example on one side somebody is theistic, the other side atheistic. The sides don't transcend or ascend the other, since they're all part of the same coin.


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: spinvis]
    #28442106 - 08/21/23 07:44 PM (5 months, 4 days ago)

Yet the coin, I was thinking of as the metallic soul in alchemy, transcends its faces.


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro] * 2
    #28442374 - 08/22/23 03:57 AM (5 months, 4 days ago)

Two translations of verse 21 of the Total Space of Vajrasattva (rDo rje sems dpa’ nam mkha’ che), a text of the mind division of atiyoga, that fits here:
Quote:

"A path to purity that proceeds from level to level
Does not agree with the teaching of no action.
If there were truly paths to travel, one would never
Reach one’s goal, just as there is no limit to space."




Quote:

"The path of purity that leads higher and higher
Does not correspond with the nature beyond action.
Were there really a path to tread,
Just like the bounds of the sky, one would never arrive."




The coin is just the coin. If it where to transcend its faces, its faces would automatically transcend with it, since both faces are attached to it. The coin is viewed from its rim instead, both faces existing together.


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: spinvis]
    #28442390 - 08/22/23 04:59 AM (5 months, 4 days ago)

The vajra person saying that has done nor prescribes no practice? No practice is practice. As for practices of form, experience shows there is no difference. Btw I love Mahamudra and such like that.


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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Kmacmo] * 2
    #28442577 - 08/22/23 09:14 AM (5 months, 3 days ago)

No teaching. No teacher. No student -Papaji

The only truth is being.

Beliefs exist as a concept of the mind, the mind only thinks it knows, and even then knowledge is limitless.

The only truth is pure awareness and being-ness.

In that state, there is no questions, beliefs, or dramas to be had for all is already known. Simply existing as such, in and as eternity - there are no questions. It all just is.


--------------------
"In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old
In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser
In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter
As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms
And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply
Different ways in which The
All-That Is
Perceives Itself"


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28442586 - 08/22/23 09:42 AM (5 months, 3 days ago)

It's attributed to:
Quote:

Garab Dorje (Tibetan: དགའ་རབ་རྡོ་རྗེ་, Wylie: dga’ rab rdo rje) was the semi-historical first human to receive the complete direct transmission teachings of Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen from Vajrasattva. Garab Dorje then became the first teacher of Dzogchen ("Great Perfection", also called Ati Yoga) teachings according to Tibetan buddhist and Nyingma school traditions.

Garab Dorje transmitted the complete empowerments of Dzogchen to Manjushrimitra, who was regarded as his chief disciple. Padmasambhava is also known to have received the transmission of the Dzogchen tantras directly from Garab Dorje.

Garab Dorje summarized his teaching as follows: The nature of mind is the original Buddha without birth or cessation, like the sky! When you understand that, all apparent phenomena are beyond birth and cessation. Meditating means letting this condition be as it is, without seeking.




I've posted the full root text which includes all verses, and his "famous" three statements if you're interested in reading them. I can highly suggest the book The Golden Letters: The Three Statements of Garab Dorje, First Dzogchen Master for further reading with regards to its practice.

Another example (from the book):

Quote:

In Dzogchen there is no transforming of impure phenomena into pure phenomena, because whatever phenomena may manifest to the senses are perfect just as they are. They are spontaneously perfected (Ihun rdzogs) because they are manifestations of the nature of mind (sems-nyid kyi snang-ba), of the potentiality of the inexhaustible energy (rtsal) of the mind. In the Dzogchen teachings, the nature of the mind is likened to a mirror, and phenomena are like the reflections seen in that mirror. Whether these reflections are good or bad, beautiful or ugly, pure or impure, they in no way modify or limit the nature of the mirror. It is the same with one's own nature of mind.




Edited by spinvis (08/22/23 10:03 AM)


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: spinvis]
    #28442865 - 08/22/23 02:01 PM (5 months, 3 days ago)

Everyone is a theist, the difference being in what occupies that part of the mind.


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OfflineSvetaketu
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Lucis] * 1
    #28442964 - 08/22/23 03:57 PM (5 months, 3 days ago)

If I'm being honest, most of the logic in this thread appears to me as confused nonsense.

There either is or isn't a god, it cannot be both. Our experiences, beliefs, and opinions have no bearing on whether there actually is a deity.

There also appears to be several different definitions of both atheist and theist in use, so the meaning is pretty much entirely lost in the weeds.


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Svetaketu]
    #28443377 - 08/23/23 01:52 AM (5 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Svetaketu said:
If I'm being honest, most of the logic in this thread appears to me as confused nonsense.

There either is or isn't a god, it cannot be both. Our experiences, beliefs, and opinions have no bearing on whether there actually is a deity.

There also appears to be several different definitions of both atheist and theist in use, so the meaning is pretty much entirely lost in the weeds.




So your God obviously has a limit according to your current belief. God either exists or not. Why would you believe God is so constrained to such a narrow viewpoint? If God is truly God, all different viewpoints are God's.


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: spinvis]
    #28443559 - 08/23/23 07:58 AM (5 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

In Dzogchen there is no transforming of impure phenomena into pure phenomena, because whatever phenomena may manifest to the senses are perfect just as they are. They are spontaneously perfected (Ihun rdzogs) because they are manifestations of the nature of mind (sems-nyid kyi snang-ba), of the potentiality of the inexhaustible energy (rtsal) of the mind. In the Dzogchen teachings, the nature of the mind is likened to a mirror, and phenomena are like the reflections seen in that mirror. Whether these reflections are good or bad, beautiful or ugly, pure or impure, they in no way modify or limit the nature of the mirror. It is the same with one's own nature of mind.




Yet somehow in this, I don't think they are saying not to sit. Wonderful paradox. It's like nature is nature, the teacher puts on a robe, and speaks. Yet nature is nature, having no such need. :crankey:


Edited by syncro (08/23/23 08:15 AM)


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Svetaketu] * 1
    #28443560 - 08/23/23 08:00 AM (5 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

There either is or isn't a god, it cannot be both. Our experiences, beliefs, and opinions have no bearing on whether there actually is a deity.




It's like considering the ocean. Whether there are waves in it are beside the point and doesn't change the ocean.


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro]
    #28443565 - 08/23/23 08:05 AM (5 months, 3 days ago)

It reminds me of a story. A form of Vishnu, I think Rama, was walking by disciples who were arguing the same thing, in effect some saying, there is no deity! He just smiled and kept walking, the implication being it is fine either way.


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Invisibleconnectedcosmos
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28443568 - 08/23/23 08:06 AM (5 months, 3 days ago)

I was going to literally use the same metaphor :lol:

If I see just water in the ocean and you see waves, who's right?

If you want "ocular"/"scientific" proof of God you won't ever get it , for the same reason physicist will never find "substance" or what an object is made of

It's not some giant puffcloud or some old man with a beard in the sky , try to find your self

What happens when you ask well where did this come from or what is this made of? Eventually you'll trail off into the unknown - same with trying to find your self , there will always be a mystery


--------------------


54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #28443578 - 08/23/23 08:20 AM (5 months, 2 days ago)

This is the second time I've seen recently someone saying no bearded man in the sky and I wanted to respond that there is that too.

If it is consciousness, the whole thing is teaming with life, is life.

Not meaning the typical connotation of bearded man in the sky, like a limited monarch, though I suppose there is that too.


Edited by syncro (08/23/23 08:38 AM)


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Svetaketu]
    #28443642 - 08/23/23 09:31 AM (5 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

durian_2008 said:
Everyone is a theist, the difference being in what occupies that part of the mind.



Quote:

Svetaketu said:
If I'm being honest, most of the logic in this thread appears to me as confused nonsense.

There either is or isn't a god, it cannot be both.




I mean to say that you will regard some philosopher, social better, or polity on the level of god, which is a universal, human, emotional experience.


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: durian_2008]
    #28443680 - 08/23/23 10:14 AM (5 months, 2 days ago)

"Everyone is a theist"

I think it goes to the question of is everything alive. Even if goes formless and nameless or has no consideration, we have no internal indication of separating from life.


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro]
    #28443711 - 08/23/23 10:55 AM (5 months, 2 days ago)

Is there nothing beautiful and unexplainable which fills your mind with wonder?

Some people put some really childish subject matter in that spot, which we reserve for God.

We call that idolatry.


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: durian_2008]
    #28443728 - 08/23/23 11:19 AM (5 months, 2 days ago)

"Is there nothing beautiful and unexplainable which fills your mind with wonder?"

If in reply to me, not sure I'm understanding; that's exactly what I mean by life. If life is inescapable, theism as well in a broader sense as in perhaps the panpsychic, or buddha mind in the witness, seems inevitable.

"buddha mind in the witness" I just got axed by the non-self buddhists. Still :smile:


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OfflineSvetaketu
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: durian_2008]
    #28443731 - 08/23/23 11:23 AM (5 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

spinvis said:
So your God obviously has a limit according to your current belief. God either exists or not. Why would you believe God is so constrained to such a narrow viewpoint?




How exactly, could anything both exist and not exist? If it exists anywhere, then it doesn't not-exist. Your belief that God is limitless doesn't somehow make this logical.

Quote:

syncro said:
It's like considering the ocean. Whether there are waves in it are beside the point and doesn't change the ocean.




It isn't like that at all, I think we can agree waves exist, and whether there is a god or not does change the universe quite a lot.

this is more like if I were to ask does the ocean contain fish? And your answer is well, it both does and doesn't, it depends on your perspective.

No it doesn't. Your perspective, understanding, knowledge on the subject, none of it has any bearing on whether there are or aren't fish in the ocean.

Quote:

connectedcosmos said:

If I see just water in the ocean and you see waves, who's right?





Depends on the question? If the question is; do waves exist? The answer is yes, yes they do.

Quote:


If you want "ocular"/"scientific" proof of God you won't ever get it , for the same reason physicist will never find "substance" or what an object is made of

It's not some giant puffcloud or some old man with a beard in the sky , try to find your self

What happens when you ask well where did this come from or what is this made of? Eventually you'll trail off into the unknown - same with trying to find your self , there will always be a mystery




This is something else entirely, we may never know the definitive answers to these questions, and that's fine. I don't think we will ever know for certain if there is a God, but that doesn't change the simple logical fact that there either is a god, or there isn't one, both is not an option here.

Quote:

durian_2008 said:
I mean to say that you will regard some philosopher, social better, or polity on the level of god, which is a universal, human, emotional experience.




I don't hold anyone or anything to the level of a God, so this is overly broad nonsense at best.

Quote:


Is there nothing beautiful and unexplainable which fills your mind with wonder?





If you're going to abuse the definition of god to that length, then you're statement is true but rather meaningless.


TL;DR


Unless we can agree on some basic definitions for God, atheist, theist, and existence, this effort is doomed to be wasted by mostly talking past each other and exchanging very little.


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro]
    #28443735 - 08/23/23 11:25 AM (5 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
Yet somehow in this, I don't think they are saying not to sit. Wonderful paradox. It's like nature is nature, the teacher puts on a robe, and speaks. Yet nature is nature, having no such need. :crankey:




Not sure why you brought up sitting in particular, but that reminds me of a different teaching:

Anthony De Mello - One Minute Wisdom - VIGILANCE;
Quote:

“Is there anything I can do to make myself Enlightened?”

“As little as you can do to make the sun rise in the morning.”

“Then of what use are the spiritual exercises you prescribe?”

“To make sure you are not asleep when the sun begins to rise.”



:tongue2:

Are those things you mentioned all that separate from one another? Is the teacher and robe somehow separate from nature? Both 'The Flower Sermon' and the 'Eleusinian Mysteries' signifies the direct transmission of wisdom without words, who knows, maybe even without robes. Explore the paradox further! :wink:

Anyway, there are "practices" employed. Short excerpt from the book which you might find interesting:

Quote:

From the viewpoint of the Nying-thig teachings, the original state of the individual, one's inherent enlightened nature, is seen as being primordially pure and spontaneously self-perfected (lhun-grub). These two aspects of the state are realized in the two divisions of Nying-thig teaching and practice, namely, Thekchod and Thodgal. The term Thekchod (khregs-chod) literally means "cutting loose (chod) the bundle (khregs)," much as a woodman might cut loose the ties binding a bundle of sticks he has brought with him from the forest. In the case of the individual, this bundle is all one's emotional and intellectual tensions and rigidities that keep one imprisoned in a selfcreated cage and prevent one from realizing one's intrinsic freedom. The principal point in Thekchod is to relax all these tensions of body, speech, and mind that obscure our inherent Buddha-nature, which has been primordially present as the Base (ye gzhi). In Thekchod practice, one settles into a state of contemplation without being distracted for a moment from the view of the primordial purity of our inherent nature. As the master Garab Dorje said, "Whatever is produced in the mind is unobstructed like the clouds in the sky. Having understood the meaning of the complete identity of all phenomena (in terms of their essence which is emptiness [openness]), then when one enters into this (state of contemplation) without following them, this is the true meditation." Through the practice of Thekchod, one comes to understand and be totally familiar with the state of contemplation.

Then, through the practice of Thodgal, one develops this state of contemplation through the medium of vision. The term Thodgal (thodrgal, Skt. vyutkrantaka) literally means "direct" (thod-rgal du) in the sense of an immediate and instantaneous transition from one location to another, where there is no intervening interval of time. Thus some would translate it as "leap over," but it is much more immediate than leaping about. And also here, when we say "vision" (snangba), we are not speaking about visualization (dmigs-pa), which, for example, is much used in Tantra. Visualization is a process which involves the working of the mind. However, with Thekchod we have moved into a dimension beyond the mind, and, with Thodgal, one continues in this direction. Rather than visualizations created by the mind, we are talking about an integration with vision, with whatever arises spontaneously to vision while the practitioner is in the state of contemplation. Therefore, the mastery of contemplation through the practice of Thekchod is an immediate prerequisite to the practice of Thodgal. Otherwise, there exists the danger of becoming caught up in one's visions, becoming distracted by them and believ ing them to be an objective reality. Indeed, it was precisely this attachment to one's impure karmic visions that got the individual caught up in Samsara in the first place.

Whereas the principle of Thekchod is the primordial purity of everything, the principle of Thodgal is their spontaneous self-perfection. By contrast, the method in Tantra is to transform one's impure karmic vision (such as we experience at this very moment as human existence) into pure vision, which is how an enlightened being sees the external world. Thus one visualizes oneself as a deity in the pure dimension of the mandala, and through repeated sadhana practice in retreat one makes this experience into something real and concrete.




There's much more in the book, I can also recommend 'The Gospel of Garab Dorje' for even more in depth details, or if you really want to a deep dive and feel like a teacher is next to you, taking you step by step through later Dzogchen practices and philosophies, explaining everything in the clearest detail, read Longchenpa's 'The Seven Treasuries' books.


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: spinvis]
    #28443787 - 08/23/23 12:13 PM (5 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Svetaketu said:
How exactly, could anything both exist and not exist? If it exists anywhere, then it doesn't not-exist. Your belief that God is limitless doesn't somehow make this logical.




For God existence or non existence are made up human concepts, next to the concepts 'God, atheist, theist, effort, doom, waste'.

I never wrote that's my believe btw, you first mentioned God so I related to you on that level. According to your writing God for you is limited, since it would be impossible for God to simultaneously exist and non exist (but somehow you mention fish can do it, depending on your perspective), to be a wave or water, even though it's God, and that says something about your belief and perspective. And that's not wrong or right, good nor bad, it's just what it is, and that's completely okay!


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OfflineSvetaketu
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: spinvis]
    #28443802 - 08/23/23 12:26 PM (5 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

spinvis said:
Quote:

Svetaketu said:
How exactly, could anything both exist and not exist? If it exists anywhere, then it doesn't not-exist. Your belief that God is limitless doesn't somehow make this logical.




For God existence or non existence are made up human concepts, next to the concepts 'God, atheist, theist, effort, doom, waste'.

I never wrote that's my believe btw, you first mentioned God so I related to you on that level. According to your writing God for you is limited, since it would be impossible for God to simultaneously exist and non exist (but somehow you mention fish can do it, depending on your perspective), to be a wave or water, even though it's God, and that says something about your belief and perspective. And that's not wrong or right, good nor bad, it's just what it is, and that's completely okay!





This is what I meant by talking past each other.

You have misunderstood my perspective entirely.


The concepts and definitions are made up yes, but if we can't agree which concepts we are talking about then this isn't really a conversation.


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: spinvis]
    #28443878 - 08/23/23 01:33 PM (5 months, 2 days ago)

I referred to sitting as just that being in asana for no other purpose except it's pure. Could be other just beings for no reason. :smile:

"However, with Thekchod we have moved into a dimension beyond the mind"

This was my point before, tantric practice does this very same thing.

Quote:

Whereas the principle of Thekchod is the primordial purity of everything, the principle of Thodgal is their spontaneous self-perfection. By contrast, the method in Tantra is to transform one's impure karmic vision (such as we experience at this very moment as human existence) into pure vision, which is how an enlightened being sees the external world. Thus one visualizes oneself as a deity in the pure dimension of the mandala, and through repeated sadhana practice in retreat one makes this experience into something real and concrete.




I like the approach, but it doesn't change anything in effects, imo. People can say what does it uniquely and beautifully. They can't say what doesn't. There are too many possibilities.


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro]
    #28443888 - 08/23/23 01:43 PM (5 months, 2 days ago)

It seems he may not have been negating tantra in that, the whole quote, but describing the differences in approach. So forgive my defense.


Edited by syncro (08/23/23 01:43 PM)


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28443936 - 08/23/23 02:15 PM (5 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
It seems he may not have been negating tantra in that, the whole quote, but describing the differences in approach. So forgive my defense.




No worries, in my view they're all correct, and wrong at the same time. But helpful and insightful nonetheless, and they supplement each other, instead of rejecting each other. There's always some piece of info, or view, that is overlooked or missing, and explained in detail in a different practice.


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Svetaketu]
    #28443954 - 08/23/23 02:28 PM (5 months, 2 days ago)

That's the point exactly, concepts can't capture "God" since they're made up. So what left is Being.


Edited by spinvis (08/23/23 02:28 PM)


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: spinvis]
    #28444064 - 08/23/23 03:56 PM (5 months, 2 days ago)

You haven't defined the label "God" so I have no idea what you are trying to capture.

We may as well be hunting for a unicorn with a fishing rod at this point, these labels are meaningless unless we can agree to tie them to something.

When you say the word "God" what are you trying to convey?


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Svetaketu] * 2
    #28444075 - 08/23/23 04:06 PM (5 months, 2 days ago)

In Vedic sources it can be defined as Sat-Chit-Ananda, existence-consciousness-bliss, inseparable including in the natural world. So questions might be in confirming or denying the unity of two or more of those.


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Svetaketu] * 1
    #28444657 - 08/24/23 03:57 AM (5 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Svetaketu said:


We may as well be hunting for a unicorn with a fishing rod at this point, these labels are meaningless unless we can agree to tie them to something.







See thats what I mean by you won't get "proof" of God with "science"

You have to look inward , the closest I can come to God is trying to understand what I am

It's an intuitive type of knowledge

I do understand your perspective though svetaketu, as I have stated before I have once been "agnostic" and an "atheist"

This all circles back around to you can't have a theist without an atheist , what in the hell would we talk about? How would we know the difference?  :lol:

God's like a mirror that shattered and each piece is a different perspective on what the whole really is , I think that's a good one or maybe think of the blind men and the elephant

It's not like we are going to change your mind anyway and that's not even the point , what is even the point? It's all about the fun anyway  :heart:


--------------------


54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #28444697 - 08/24/23 06:14 AM (5 months, 2 days ago)

I ran across this yesterday which fits with the discussion, Why Materialism is Wrong, video with Bernado Kastrup. It's two hours but even the first lines may capture interest.

He talks about hard problem of consciousness, arguing that the universe in the principle of being mental rather that material solves it, and considers materialism a lousy view in it, with interesting talk about perception and in the idea of what we see being only representations, like indicators on a control panel. He is calling his view Idealism and said before the last couple of centuries, it was mainstream, then materialism rose.


Edited by syncro (08/24/23 07:15 AM)


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28444700 - 08/24/23 06:21 AM (5 months, 2 days ago)



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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28444740 - 08/24/23 07:34 AM (5 months, 2 days ago)

This is from the article talking about a different interview I assume. "Kastrup then explains the difference between Materialism and Idealism (around the 45-minute mark). Materialism means that you think you study the thing in itself. Idealism implies that you study the appearance of the thing."

A "field of subjectivity", he endorses, though I found interesting in the video he attacks panpsychism, but this seems to be a more materialistic aspect of it, around particles in the panpsychic view, being something more than information.


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28444784 - 08/24/23 08:29 AM (5 months, 1 day ago)



Edited by syncro (08/24/23 08:31 AM)


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro]
    #28444798 - 08/24/23 08:54 AM (5 months, 1 day ago)

"Materialism will be just a blip in the historical context." Kastrup's prediction


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro]
    #28444830 - 08/24/23 09:21 AM (5 months, 1 day ago)

Commerce as a basis for existence can never be blip in the historical context.
Not 'being in trade' as distinct, schoolchildren, wives, clergy - definitions being blurry where they mix.


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28444907 - 08/24/23 10:19 AM (5 months, 1 day ago)

I suppose it would be in learning to change channels. It doesn't seem it happens all at once, but for one at a time. Though for the one then the previous is not the same nor for their perceptions of the world and others.

But contracting exchange seems can be a pleasant thing, interaction and mutual benefit. Perhaps there is an inevitable darkness in the material as such, as in the thought that our conveniences are supported by perpetual war that we don't see.

There is also sometimes a perception of darkness in matter in a gnostic type bent if a convenient description, though in saying it I see it can be from any foundation.

I don't know that it's useful to consider, but mentioned has been that of incomprehensible implications, cosmic, in not a good way, of egoic natures.

Not to worry though, it is for its likeness. Whoops, that's me. I'm working on it!


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28444916 - 08/24/23 10:25 AM (5 months, 1 day ago)

This is where the vajra stuff spinvis posted stands out, though it can be seen universally, but the idea of starting with nothing but the absolute in all phenomena if I'm saying it right.

As well surrender serves the same effect.


Edited by syncro (08/24/23 10:26 AM)


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro]
    #28444945 - 08/24/23 10:42 AM (5 months, 1 day ago)

I'm multi viewing so not hearing all of the video with Kastrup and the swami, but caught a question as Kastrup led up to, "Is this whole thing an error?" Swami replied it is common language in Advaita and Buddhism, etc., but added that Vivekananda said, we are not going from error to truth, but from lower truth to higher truth.

This is getting good in the second hour as I'm paying more attention.


Edited by syncro (08/24/23 10:43 AM)


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Svetaketu] * 1
    #28445839 - 08/24/23 10:04 PM (5 months, 1 day ago)

Hey Svetaketu, what do you think about this?

Quote:

The definition of Truth is: That which works.




This seems to suggest that God can exist and not exist at the same time. What, for example, is
when your belief in God causes him to exist?

Perhaps we should reinvoce the Buddhist logic thread. :laugh:


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: AnattaAtman]
    #28446028 - 08/25/23 03:31 AM (5 months, 1 day ago)

Lol! The Buddhist logic thread, good times.

Anyway, the truth definition is very unclear to me. What do you mean by "works"?

For example, if someone believes in a god, and they believe this idea improves their life, does that mean it "works"?

Who decides whether something is working or not?  Is it purely subjective?

It might "work" for someone to pretend they are a venus fly-trap and subsist off only bugs, water, and sunlight, but I think it would be very confused to say it is true that they are actually a plant.


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Svetaketu] * 1
    #28446066 - 08/25/23 05:35 AM (5 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Svetaketu said:
For example, if someone believes in a god, and they believe this idea improves their life, does that mean it "works"?




I suppose so. Who am I to deny someone an approach which improves his life, just because
it doesn't fit my idea of what is true and what is false?


Quote:

Who decides whether something is working or not?  Is it purely subjective?




The corresponding philosophy is called Pragmatism. Peirce explained it best, in his words:

"Consider the practical effects of the objects of your conception. Then, your conception
of those effects is the whole of your conception of the object."


The main point here is that he talks about the practical effects. If a belief improves your
life, and it only works for you, it is subjective, but if it works for everyone, I guess it must
be objective. It can be considered true in either case. We can call it subjective
truth and objective truth, or relative truth and universal truth. For example, the eightfold
path works for everyone, so that means it is an universal truth. The belief in God is a relative
truth, In my understanding, since it works for some and not for others.


Quote:

It might "work" for someone to pretend they are a venus fly-trap and subsist off only bugs, water, and sunlight, but I think it would be very confused to say it is true that they are actually a plant.




Well, a fly-trap cannot think. If you really believe to be a plant, you would have to stop
thinking, but then again, this defies the general idea of believing to be a plant. Kind
of going around in circles. A plant does not know it is a plant. This seems to mean that
the whole idea is nonsense, it does not work.


Edited by AnattaAtman (08/25/23 05:41 AM)


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Svetaketu]
    #28446077 - 08/25/23 06:01 AM (5 months, 1 day ago)

I really like that definition of truth:awesomenod:


Because the definition of truth is shady business anyway

Itll lead one in to a viscous circle of the three words truth, fact, reality :lol:


--------------------


54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: connectedcosmos] * 1
    #28446087 - 08/25/23 06:27 AM (5 months, 1 day ago)

Truth is what works implies means, so though appealing, Anatta's statement is instead, what works for you is correct if not violating other things. Then there is the idea of an absolute truth as Svekatu is speaking of which is where there is conflation.

But what are we absolutely? By the same reasoning we could say we are also pretending to be humans, like venus fly traps. So all truths perhaps, conventional or not, are means to find something that works, and not absolute.

But there are immovable truths in the world of forms, like a triangle of certain proportions. So the mind easily makes absolute truth that seems not to be found in the world.

Quote:

The world of forms, also known as the realm of ideas or the realm of concepts, is a philosophical concept introduced by Plato. It refers to a non-physical realm where perfect and eternal forms or ideas exist. These forms are considered to be the true reality, while the physical world we perceive is merely a flawed reflection or imitation of these forms.




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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro] * 2
    #28446369 - 08/25/23 12:30 PM (5 months, 19 hours ago)

Ramesh S. Balsekar - Foreword - Wei Wu Wei - Fingers Pointing Towards the Moon: Reflections of a Pilgrim on the Way;
Quote:

Consciousness is all there is; other than Consciousness, nothing is. And this is a concept.
. . .
Make no mistake: whatever I say—whatever its impact—is a concept. It is not the truth. A concept is something that someone may accept and someone may not. The Truth is that which no one can deny. And therefore the only Truth, in phenomenality, is “I AM”—the impersonal Awareness of Being.
On this basis, whatever any sage has ever said, whatever any scripture of any religion says is a concept.





Alan Watts - Intelligent Mindlessness;
Quote:

Now, what is the real world? Some people have the theory that the real world is material or physical. They say it’s made of a kind of stuff. Other people have the theory that the real world is spiritual or mental. But I want you to point out that both those theories of the world are concepts. They are constructions of words. And the real world is not an idea, it is not words. Reality is: [GONG]
You’ll find, therefore, that if you get with reality, all sorts of illusions disappear.




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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: spinvis]
    #28446386 - 08/25/23 12:49 PM (5 months, 19 hours ago)

Though forms are consciousness, it's said as well, on a level, these are eternal. As said, because (if) they are loving, they are like the divine, therefore eternal. I wonder often, then if of mind, why aren't unloving thought forms eternal?

I think because they cannot be untroubled, and therefore are unstable, with no substantial sustaining force. But on some level, as we see before us, such thoughts reappear as if eternal, though always in impermanence, attached/repulsed to forms themselves without love.


Edited by syncro (08/25/23 01:37 PM)


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: spinvis]
    #28446388 - 08/25/23 12:50 PM (5 months, 19 hours ago)

I would like to tweek such an illusion for long enough to have a joyride, within God's permissive will, with no harm intended toward innocent bystanders.


:shrug:


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: durian_2008]
    #28446453 - 08/25/23 01:38 PM (5 months, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
Though forms are consciousness, it said as well, on a level, these are eternal. As said, because (if) they are loving, they are like the divine, therefore eternal. I wonder often, then if of mind, why aren't unloving thought forms eternal?

I think because they cannot be untroubled, and therefore are unstable, with no substantial sustaining force. But on some level, as we see before us, such thoughts reappear as if eternal, though always in impermanence, attached/repulsed to forms themselves without love.



If I'm understanding this correctly, this is also somewhat related to our other discussion with regards to manifestation of the "shadow"? In that case see my reply in that thread here.

Quote:

durian_2008 said:
I would like to tweek such an illusion for long enough to have a joyride, within God's permissive will, with no harm intended toward innocent bystanders.


:shrug:



Hahaha what makes you believe that wouldn't be a valid part of the whole :wink::heart:


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: spinvis]
    #28446464 - 08/25/23 01:48 PM (5 months, 18 hours ago)



Also, why does she have to wait for the cookies to get done.


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: spinvis]
    #28446479 - 08/25/23 02:00 PM (5 months, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

spinvis said:
Quote:

syncro said:
Though forms are consciousness, it said as well, on a level, these are eternal. As said, because (if) they are loving, they are like the divine, therefore eternal. I wonder often, then if of mind, why aren't unloving thought forms eternal?

I think because they cannot be untroubled, and therefore are unstable, with no substantial sustaining force. But on some level, as we see before us, such thoughts reappear as if eternal, though always in impermanence, attached/repulsed to forms themselves without love.



If I'm understanding this correctly, this is also somewhat related to our other discussion with regards to manifestation of the "shadow"? In that case see my reply in that thread here.




I saw and appreciated that post. Mine may have not been such a relevant reply to your quotes. But just saying that I agree with the absolute nature of consciousness or being beyond perception and form, though also, forms, thoughts, are or can be eternal.

And then musing around why unloving thoughts though appearing so, are not said to be eternal.


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro]
    #28447392 - 08/26/23 12:40 PM (4 months, 30 days ago)

I mean, I have no problem with pragmatism in practice. If something is working for you, by all means continue using it. In general I don't care what people believe or do as long as they aren't hurting anyone.

I just also believe that there is an objective reality outside of our awareness. It's my personal goal in life to get as close to understanding this reality as possible.

Of course that's sort of a fools errand, as basically nothing is actually verifiable in the absolute sense.

But IMO, with some very basic assumptions (the laws of Identity, contradiction, and excluded middle) most things that actually affect my life in the here and now can come into focus, and can be easily be communicated to others if they understand basic logic.

I would love it if humanity could agree on some kind of consensus reality, as most of our history is people slaughtering each other on the basis of confused imaginary nonsense. Again, I realize this is a fools errand, but I can't help trying.

Pragmatism has an allure, but the pure subjectivity of it bothers me. Reality is not subjective. The problem with subjective truth is that anyone can use it to justify anything that they want, including atrocities and insanity.


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Svetaketu]
    #28447455 - 08/26/23 01:39 PM (4 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

I mean, I have no problem with pragmatism in practice. If something is working for you, by all means continue using it. In general I don't care what people believe or do as long as they aren't hurting anyone.




No one should get led on a wild gooschace by any hypothetical line of discussion I have started.

When it comes to giving false hope to the medically disabled or terrorizing someone with legal responsibilities, I think that outright lying on the part of a snakeoil salesman should provoke a shitstorm of Medieval proportions.


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Svetaketu]
    #28512948 - 10/21/23 12:27 PM (3 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Svetaketu said:
For example, if someone believes in a god, and they believe this idea improves their life, does that mean it "works"?





You are right, that does not necessarily mean that God exists. I think the pragmatic
approach would be prayer.

If prayer works, then  God exits.


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: AnattaAtman]
    #28513084 - 10/21/23 02:06 PM (3 months, 5 days ago)

How about Buddhist prayer such as use of mantra that doesn't imply God per se? Though it still would imply divine or subtle natures, so for practical purposes, God. Tilopa's, "the mind is a bright light", might as well be theist though as a tantric doesn't represent all of Buddhism.


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro]
    #28513281 - 10/21/23 04:53 PM (3 months, 5 days ago)

all beliefs are derived from consciousness. i think the term OP is searching for is agnostic.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro]
    #28513739 - 10/22/23 06:41 AM (3 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
How about Buddhist prayer such as use of mantra that doesn't imply God per se?




Maybe the whole Pali is a prayer. One big mantra. Or else, when being chanted, it probably is a
song. That would imply all the repetitions are the refrain.


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Svetaketu]
    #28513903 - 10/22/23 09:27 AM (3 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Svetaketu said:
For example, if someone believes in a god, and they believe this idea improves their life, does that mean it "works"?




It is written to test the spirits and to torment the false prophets.


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: AnattaAtman]
    #28514105 - 10/22/23 12:11 PM (3 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

AnattaAtman said:
Quote:

Svetaketu said:
For example, if someone believes in a god, and they believe this idea improves their life, does that mean it "works"?





You are right, that does not necessarily mean that God exists. I think the pragmatic
approach would be prayer.

If prayer works, then  God exits.




Even if a prayer appears to be answered, how do you know it's god that answered it?

And again, what does it mean for a prayer to "work"?

Let's say I'm lost in a labyrinth. After a few hours, I start to panic and give up hope. I say a prayer begging God to show me the way out. There is no response, but the pause calms me down enough to keep searching for a way out. Does that mean the prayer "worked"?


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Lucis]
    #28514407 - 10/22/23 03:55 PM (3 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Lucis said:
I am not an atheist or a theist.  Both experiences arise from a state of consciousness so both can be correct based on the one having a particular experience.




I think that atheist and theist are just words.

I have a difficult time think of them as experiences.
I can see them as ways that people interpret experiences, like a type of label, but that is remarkably subjective, relative and subject to change.


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: durian_2008]
    #28514426 - 10/22/23 04:11 PM (3 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Svetaketu said:
For example, if someone believes in a god, and they believe this idea improves their life, does that mean it "works"?



Quote:

durian_2008 said:
It is written to test the spirits and to torment the false prophets.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queequeg

People are more interested in whether it works than in how it works or who is working it. Under extreme, medical, financial, or political pressure, there are stories of literal dowsing rods and rain dances when all else has failed and the seeker is at the end of his rope.


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: durian_2008]
    #28514470 - 10/22/23 04:59 PM (3 months, 4 days ago)

I think the prayer helps one help themselves, and that better success comes with maturity of the first purpose of prayer which is not for some thing or external circumstance, but for realization or presence. So it seems it can be explained naturalistically to an extent.


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OfflineAnattaAtman
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Svetaketu]
    #28514877 - 10/23/23 12:52 AM (3 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Svetaketu said:
Even if a prayer appears to be answered, how do you know it's god that answered it?




It's a definition. I call the being which answers "God".

Quote:

And again, what does it mean for a prayer to "work"?




You throw a dice, and pray for a six.

Quote:

Let's say I'm lost in a labyrinth. After a few hours, I start to panic and give up hope. I say a prayer begging God to show me the way out. There is no response, but the pause calms me down enough to keep searching for a way out. Does that mean the prayer "worked"?




Easy. There was no response, so it did not work.


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OfflineSvetaketu
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: AnattaAtman]
    #28516865 - 10/24/23 04:59 PM (3 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

AnattaAtman said:
Quote:

Svetaketu said:
Even if a prayer appears to be answered, how do you know it's god that answered it?




It's a definition. I call the being which answers "God".





That's a very vague definition. I could answer a prayer, I don't think that would make me god.

Quote:

Quote:

And again, what does it mean for a prayer to "work"?




You throw a dice, and pray for a six.





:confused:

I thought God didn't play dice.

I could pray to Bob Dylan and you can pray to God, our dice are still going to land on 6 right about 1/6th of the time.

Quote:

Quote:

Let's say I'm lost in a labyrinth. After a few hours, I start to panic and give up hope. I say a prayer begging God to show me the way out. There is no response, but the pause calms me down enough to keep searching for a way out. Does that mean the prayer "worked"?




Easy. There was no response, so it did not work.




Do you generally get a response when you pray?


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OfflineAnattaAtman
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Svetaketu]
    #28517369 - 10/25/23 04:58 AM (3 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Svetaketu said:
That's a very vague definition. I could answer a prayer, I don't think that would make me god. 




But can you answer every prayer? That would make you into some sort of God, no?

Quote:

I thought God didn't play dice.




Ah, a quote by Albert Einstein. I think he was wrong, for what is creation, but one big game?

Quote:

I could pray to Bob Dylan and you can pray to God, our dice are still going to land on 6 right about 1/6th of the time.




Then repeat the experiment as often as you want to, until the probability fits
your style.

Quote:

Do you generally get a response when you pray?




Only if you request one.

Your labyrinth example is interesting and a bit tricky. So, if prayer works, then God
exists, but there are exceptions to that rule. But if prayer works consistently and across
all circumstances,  again and again, then there is a high probability that God exists.


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: AnattaAtman] * 1
    #28517679 - 10/25/23 12:06 PM (3 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Albert Einstein. I think he was wrong




If we're going to assume that repeating the same thing and expecting a different outcome is the very definition of insanity, the next logical step is a higher order of reasoning.


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OfflineRareTricho
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Lucis]
    #28518299 - 10/25/23 09:40 PM (3 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Lucis said:
I am not an atheist or a theist.  Both experiences arise from a state of consciousness so both can be correct based on the one having a particular experience.




If you consider consciousness itself "god" and that everything possible that we relate to or experience is consciousness and multi dimensional forms of that consciousness then you can start to see what the Yogi's and mystics teach about.

Both can be correct to the self/observer, but both can not be correct in actuality.

All we really need to do is look at natures design. Behind that design... is it best described as random or nothingness? Or... all by intelligence using things like sacred geometry/ratios/design/evolutionary limits/rules laws such as attraction, magnetism and gravity etc.

To say there is no creator (or other ultimate truth that we can not yet comprehend), is a bit like saying there is no possibility for other life out there. A tad small minded or egotistical some would say, but we are all at different points of our evolution whether purely human or also consciously spiritual, so no answer will really be suited as a "one size fits all" answer.

Peace to all :smile:


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: RareTricho] * 1
    #28518339 - 10/25/23 10:23 PM (3 months, 1 day ago)

So every observer is the creator..

Every observer is GOD?


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OfflineSvetaketu
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: AnattaAtman]
    #28518432 - 10/26/23 02:02 AM (3 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

AnattaAtman said:
But can you answer every prayer? That would make you into some sort of God, no?





God doesn't answer every prayer, this is easy to verify.

But no, I don't think answering every prayer would make me god either.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I thought God didn't play dice.




Ah, a quote by Albert Einstein. I think he was wrong, for what is creation, but one big game?





Then repeat the experiment as often as you want to, until the probability fits
your style.





I think Albert was wrong too, I was being cheeky :tongue: because your response made no sense.

How does throwing a die and praying for a six show what it means for a prayer to work? Even if it does land on a six, you haven't shown anything.

I thought we were going to talk about the pragmatic use of prayer, as in, regardless of the underlying mechanism, the potential for prayer to be useful. Hence my labyrinth example.

Quote:

Quote:

Do you generally get a response when you pray?




Only if you request one.



:confused: many of my prayers included a request for a response, I never got one.

Quote:


Your labyrinth example is interesting and a bit tricky. So, if prayer works, then God
exists, but there are exceptions to that rule. But if prayer works consistently and across
all circumstances,  again and again, then there is a high probability that God exists.




We still haven't established what it means for a prayer to work, but even if we can get there, I'm not sure how you jump straight to it must be god.


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OfflineAnattaAtman
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Svetaketu]
    #28518494 - 10/26/23 04:29 AM (3 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Svetaketu said:
God doesn't answer every prayer,  itis easy to verify.




But for faith to be useful, God has to answer at least some prayers, fifteen percent,
for example. I do  not think this is the case. Prayer does not work in my experience.

Quote:

But no, I don't think answering every prayer would make me god either.




If you can do that, I will accept that you are God. I will pray to you in that case. :cool:

Quote:

How does throwing a die and praying for a six show what it means for a prayer to work? Even if it does land on a six, you haven't shown anything.




The point being that correctly predicting things like that have no place in the
material universe. It would be a miracle, and so it can only be explained by the
supernatural.

Quote:

many of my prayers included a request for a response, I never got one.




I don't get it. If God does not answer, then why pray?

Quote:

We still haven't established what it means for a prayer to work




I gave you one very clear example. Throw a dice.


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: AnattaAtman]
    #28518520 - 10/26/23 05:31 AM (3 months, 1 day ago)

As we know there are various mantras for use in helping with productivity, prosperity, also healing, and primarily those for liberation and protection. Like I said before I think much of their 'working' can be seen to happen naturally as in how Svetaketu described, the prayer brought pause, reflection and therefore a renewal of the search out of the labyrinth, stimulating resourcefulness. Perhaps they are synchronicities, anticipations of what would occur anyway, yet I also consider them directly influential.

There can be a gradual tuning that brings better success. A musical instrument familiar and practiced tends to desired effect.


Edited by syncro (10/26/23 02:12 PM)


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OfflineSvetaketu
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: AnattaAtman]
    #28518946 - 10/26/23 01:42 PM (3 months, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

AnattaAtman said:
But for faith to be useful, God has to answer at least some prayers, fifteen percent,
for example. I do  not think this is the case. Prayer does not work in my experience.




I don't know, that's sort of what I'm getting at. In some situations, prayer might be useful and could be considered to "work" even if there is no god and no prayers are actually answered.

This is what confuses me about your dice example. If you get 6 people to actually do that experiment, it is likely that at least one of them will roll a 6 on the first try and by your estimation, they would have produced a miracle only explainable by the supernatural? :confused:


Quote:


I don't get it. If God does not answer, then why pray?




Well, I suppose that's one of the reasons I stopped praying.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Svetaketu] * 1
    #28519283 - 10/26/23 07:01 PM (3 months, 13 hours ago)

Prayer is useful if it sustains your personal integrity.

In that way it is useful to others in society.

Peace among men and women is godly.

Prayer is also useful if it makes you feel more connected.

That is religious.


Praying for advantages in health wealth love and war is primative.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28520344 - 10/27/23 05:13 PM (2 months, 30 days ago)



--------------------
"Things are true that I forget, but no one taught that to me yet." :aliendance:
A disembodied-re-embodied consciousness be-ing
(With all the accoutrements.)


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Blue Cthulhu]
    #28520602 - 10/27/23 08:52 PM (2 months, 30 days ago)

Considering prayer concentration, "the Lord helps those who help themselves." There doesn't have to be a "Lord" per se if against the sentiment.

"Prayer to something separate from me doesn't work." Yes, pouring water other than within doesn't quench the thirst.

Consider within as having a speaker phone through an additional sense. Prayer for external things is not much, but if in need, unless for welfare of others...

Speak as if you have no doubt you are heard, that the hearer is immediately present. Let go of the fruits as if you know you have been heard. Keep doing as needed but focus on the offering or request, the object of concentration, not on whether the fruits are had at the time if possible. Often we pray for coal as goes the allegory, yet digging deeper there are more precious jewels, the deeper the more priceless.

It's not whether prayer works. It's whether you can bring it to work. It is your creation.


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro]
    #28520625 - 10/27/23 09:12 PM (2 months, 30 days ago)

Prayer is not a one time thing. It should be like regular practice until fulfilled. There it is honed. Martial arts don't work. Even three years is pretty noobish, the black belt just beginning to learn. Tennis pros didn't try it once or twice and say it doesn't work - 10 years later they are bearing fruit under the lights.


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OfflineAnattaAtman
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro]
    #28520971 - 10/28/23 09:50 AM (2 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
Martial arts don't work. Even three years is pretty noobish, the black belt just beginning to learn.




I think martial arts work, if you are a monk. By training the body to the utmost limit, you
also necessarily train the mind, which, ultimately, gives you a satori experience.
I don't know if monks practice for gaining a belt, or if that is a western thing. People
here tend to do martial arts for self defense or fitness, when, in fact, you have to
practice for achieving enlightenment. It's the same with Yoga: They call it Power Yoga,
and practice for fitness. In reality, spiritual yoga is meant to be a path to enlightenment.


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: AnattaAtman]
    #28520982 - 10/28/23 10:03 AM (2 months, 29 days ago)

The Bizarre World of Fake Martial Arts


This and all other arcane trades would collapse, as soon as failure is punished and not subject to debate or moral equivalence.


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: durian_2008]
    #28520988 - 10/28/23 10:09 AM (2 months, 29 days ago)

A couple of channels are saying that the end of the world is today.

For people taking that deadpan literally, it's a pass or fail proposition.

If you want it to have the same gravitas as physical law, there will be rules like for any mainstream science.


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OfflineAnattaAtman
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: durian_2008]
    #28521012 - 10/28/23 10:58 AM (2 months, 29 days ago)

I can't open the video file. Care to summarize what it's about?


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: AnattaAtman]
    #28521075 - 10/28/23 11:58 AM (2 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

AnattaAtman said:
Quote:

syncro said:
Martial arts don't work. Even three years is pretty noobish, the black belt just beginning to learn.




I think martial arts work, if you are a monk. By training the body to the utmost limit, you
also necessarily train the mind, which, ultimately, gives you a satori experience.
I don't know if monks practice for gaining a belt, or if that is a western thing. People
here tend to do martial arts for self defense or fitness, when, in fact, you have to
practice for achieving enlightenment. It's the same with Yoga: They call it Power Yoga,
and practice for fitness. In reality, spiritual yoga is meant to be a path to enlightenment.




I was saying martial arts don't work as sarcasm, associating with saying prayer doesn't work, but can take long practice. I was half-present, not liking that I used sarcasm without humor.


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OfflineBlue Cthulhu
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: durian_2008]
    #28521630 - 10/28/23 08:36 PM (2 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

durian_2008 said:
A couple of channels are saying that the end of the world is today.





Yes I felt that happen too! :smile:


--------------------
"Things are true that I forget, but no one taught that to me yet." :aliendance:
A disembodied-re-embodied consciousness be-ing
(With all the accoutrements.)


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OfflineAnattaAtman
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro]
    #28521926 - 10/29/23 02:50 AM (2 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
I was saying martial arts don't work as sarcasm




I see. You should use a smiley next time.. :smile:


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