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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro]
#28513281 - 10/21/23 04:53 PM (3 months, 5 days ago) |
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all beliefs are derived from consciousness. i think the term OP is searching for is agnostic.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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AnattaAtman
Mad Bodhisattva

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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro]
#28513739 - 10/22/23 06:41 AM (3 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: How about Buddhist prayer such as use of mantra that doesn't imply God per se?
Maybe the whole Pali is a prayer. One big mantra. Or else, when being chanted, it probably is a song. That would imply all the repetitions are the refrain.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Svetaketu]
#28513903 - 10/22/23 09:27 AM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
Svetaketu said: For example, if someone believes in a god, and they believe this idea improves their life, does that mean it "works"?
It is written to test the spirits and to torment the false prophets.
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Svetaketu
The Devil's Avocado 🥑


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: AnattaAtman]
#28514105 - 10/22/23 12:11 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
AnattaAtman said:
Quote:
Svetaketu said: For example, if someone believes in a god, and they believe this idea improves their life, does that mean it "works"?
You are right, that does not necessarily mean that God exists. I think the pragmatic approach would be prayer.
If prayer works, then God exits.
Even if a prayer appears to be answered, how do you know it's god that answered it?
And again, what does it mean for a prayer to "work"?
Let's say I'm lost in a labyrinth. After a few hours, I start to panic and give up hope. I say a prayer begging God to show me the way out. There is no response, but the pause calms me down enough to keep searching for a way out. Does that mean the prayer "worked"?
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Nillion
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Lucis]
#28514407 - 10/22/23 03:55 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
Lucis said: I am not an atheist or a theist. Both experiences arise from a state of consciousness so both can be correct based on the one having a particular experience.
I think that atheist and theist are just words.
I have a difficult time think of them as experiences. I can see them as ways that people interpret experiences, like a type of label, but that is remarkably subjective, relative and subject to change.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: durian_2008]
#28514426 - 10/22/23 04:11 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
Svetaketu said: For example, if someone believes in a god, and they believe this idea improves their life, does that mean it "works"?
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durian_2008 said: It is written to test the spirits and to torment the false prophets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queequeg
People are more interested in whether it works than in how it works or who is working it. Under extreme, medical, financial, or political pressure, there are stories of literal dowsing rods and rain dances when all else has failed and the seeker is at the end of his rope.
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: durian_2008]
#28514470 - 10/22/23 04:59 PM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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I think the prayer helps one help themselves, and that better success comes with maturity of the first purpose of prayer which is not for some thing or external circumstance, but for realization or presence. So it seems it can be explained naturalistically to an extent.
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AnattaAtman
Mad Bodhisattva

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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Svetaketu]
#28514877 - 10/23/23 12:52 AM (3 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
Svetaketu said: Even if a prayer appears to be answered, how do you know it's god that answered it?
It's a definition. I call the being which answers "God".
Quote:
And again, what does it mean for a prayer to "work"?
You throw a dice, and pray for a six.
Quote:
Let's say I'm lost in a labyrinth. After a few hours, I start to panic and give up hope. I say a prayer begging God to show me the way out. There is no response, but the pause calms me down enough to keep searching for a way out. Does that mean the prayer "worked"?
Easy. There was no response, so it did not work.
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Svetaketu
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: AnattaAtman]
#28516865 - 10/24/23 04:59 PM (3 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
AnattaAtman said:
Quote:
Svetaketu said: Even if a prayer appears to be answered, how do you know it's god that answered it?
It's a definition. I call the being which answers "God".
That's a very vague definition. I could answer a prayer, I don't think that would make me god.
Quote:
Quote:
And again, what does it mean for a prayer to "work"?
You throw a dice, and pray for a six.

I thought God didn't play dice.
I could pray to Bob Dylan and you can pray to God, our dice are still going to land on 6 right about 1/6th of the time.
Quote:
Quote:
Let's say I'm lost in a labyrinth. After a few hours, I start to panic and give up hope. I say a prayer begging God to show me the way out. There is no response, but the pause calms me down enough to keep searching for a way out. Does that mean the prayer "worked"?
Easy. There was no response, so it did not work.
Do you generally get a response when you pray?
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AnattaAtman
Mad Bodhisattva

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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Svetaketu]
#28517369 - 10/25/23 04:58 AM (3 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Svetaketu said: That's a very vague definition. I could answer a prayer, I don't think that would make me god.
But can you answer every prayer? That would make you into some sort of God, no?
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I thought God didn't play dice.
Ah, a quote by Albert Einstein. I think he was wrong, for what is creation, but one big game?
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I could pray to Bob Dylan and you can pray to God, our dice are still going to land on 6 right about 1/6th of the time.
Then repeat the experiment as often as you want to, until the probability fits your style.
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Do you generally get a response when you pray?
Only if you request one.
Your labyrinth example is interesting and a bit tricky. So, if prayer works, then God exists, but there are exceptions to that rule. But if prayer works consistently and across all circumstances, again and again, then there is a high probability that God exists.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: AnattaAtman] 1
#28517679 - 10/25/23 12:06 PM (3 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Albert Einstein. I think he was wrong
If we're going to assume that repeating the same thing and expecting a different outcome is the very definition of insanity, the next logical step is a higher order of reasoning.
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RareTricho
Stranger
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Lucis]
#28518299 - 10/25/23 09:40 PM (3 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Lucis said: I am not an atheist or a theist. Both experiences arise from a state of consciousness so both can be correct based on the one having a particular experience.
If you consider consciousness itself "god" and that everything possible that we relate to or experience is consciousness and multi dimensional forms of that consciousness then you can start to see what the Yogi's and mystics teach about.
Both can be correct to the self/observer, but both can not be correct in actuality.
All we really need to do is look at natures design. Behind that design... is it best described as random or nothingness? Or... all by intelligence using things like sacred geometry/ratios/design/evolutionary limits/rules laws such as attraction, magnetism and gravity etc.
To say there is no creator (or other ultimate truth that we can not yet comprehend), is a bit like saying there is no possibility for other life out there. A tad small minded or egotistical some would say, but we are all at different points of our evolution whether purely human or also consciously spiritual, so no answer will really be suited as a "one size fits all" answer.
Peace to all
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BrendanFlock
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: RareTricho] 1
#28518339 - 10/25/23 10:23 PM (3 months, 1 day ago) |
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So every observer is the creator..
Every observer is GOD?
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Svetaketu
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: AnattaAtman]
#28518432 - 10/26/23 02:02 AM (3 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
AnattaAtman said: But can you answer every prayer? That would make you into some sort of God, no?
God doesn't answer every prayer, this is easy to verify.
But no, I don't think answering every prayer would make me god either.
Quote:
Quote:
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I thought God didn't play dice.
Ah, a quote by Albert Einstein. I think he was wrong, for what is creation, but one big game?
Then repeat the experiment as often as you want to, until the probability fits your style.
I think Albert was wrong too, I was being cheeky because your response made no sense.
How does throwing a die and praying for a six show what it means for a prayer to work? Even if it does land on a six, you haven't shown anything.
I thought we were going to talk about the pragmatic use of prayer, as in, regardless of the underlying mechanism, the potential for prayer to be useful. Hence my labyrinth example.
Quote:
Quote:
Do you generally get a response when you pray?
Only if you request one.
many of my prayers included a request for a response, I never got one.
Quote:
Your labyrinth example is interesting and a bit tricky. So, if prayer works, then God exists, but there are exceptions to that rule. But if prayer works consistently and across all circumstances, again and again, then there is a high probability that God exists.
We still haven't established what it means for a prayer to work, but even if we can get there, I'm not sure how you jump straight to it must be god.
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AnattaAtman
Mad Bodhisattva

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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Svetaketu]
#28518494 - 10/26/23 04:29 AM (3 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Svetaketu said: God doesn't answer every prayer, itis easy to verify.
But for faith to be useful, God has to answer at least some prayers, fifteen percent, for example. I do not think this is the case. Prayer does not work in my experience.
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But no, I don't think answering every prayer would make me god either.
If you can do that, I will accept that you are God. I will pray to you in that case. 
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How does throwing a die and praying for a six show what it means for a prayer to work? Even if it does land on a six, you haven't shown anything.
The point being that correctly predicting things like that have no place in the material universe. It would be a miracle, and so it can only be explained by the supernatural.
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many of my prayers included a request for a response, I never got one.
I don't get it. If God does not answer, then why pray?
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We still haven't established what it means for a prayer to work
I gave you one very clear example. Throw a dice.
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: AnattaAtman]
#28518520 - 10/26/23 05:31 AM (3 months, 1 day ago) |
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As we know there are various mantras for use in helping with productivity, prosperity, also healing, and primarily those for liberation and protection. Like I said before I think much of their 'working' can be seen to happen naturally as in how Svetaketu described, the prayer brought pause, reflection and therefore a renewal of the search out of the labyrinth, stimulating resourcefulness. Perhaps they are synchronicities, anticipations of what would occur anyway, yet I also consider them directly influential.
There can be a gradual tuning that brings better success. A musical instrument familiar and practiced tends to desired effect.
Edited by syncro (10/26/23 02:12 PM)
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Svetaketu
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: AnattaAtman]
#28518946 - 10/26/23 01:42 PM (3 months, 18 hours ago) |
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Quote:
AnattaAtman said: But for faith to be useful, God has to answer at least some prayers, fifteen percent, for example. I do not think this is the case. Prayer does not work in my experience.
I don't know, that's sort of what I'm getting at. In some situations, prayer might be useful and could be considered to "work" even if there is no god and no prayers are actually answered.
This is what confuses me about your dice example. If you get 6 people to actually do that experiment, it is likely that at least one of them will roll a 6 on the first try and by your estimation, they would have produced a miracle only explainable by the supernatural? 
Quote:
I don't get it. If God does not answer, then why pray?
Well, I suppose that's one of the reasons I stopped praying.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Svetaketu] 1
#28519283 - 10/26/23 07:01 PM (3 months, 13 hours ago) |
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Prayer is useful if it sustains your personal integrity.
In that way it is useful to others in society.
Peace among men and women is godly.
Prayer is also useful if it makes you feel more connected.
That is religious.
Praying for advantages in health wealth love and war is primative.
--------------------
_ 🧠_
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Blue Cthulhu
Undefined


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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: redgreenvines]
#28520344 - 10/27/23 05:13 PM (2 months, 30 days ago) |
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-------------------- "Things are true that I forget, but no one taught that to me yet." A disembodied-re-embodied consciousness be-ing (With all the accoutrements.)
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syncro
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Blue Cthulhu]
#28520602 - 10/27/23 08:52 PM (2 months, 30 days ago) |
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Considering prayer concentration, "the Lord helps those who help themselves." There doesn't have to be a "Lord" per se if against the sentiment.
"Prayer to something separate from me doesn't work." Yes, pouring water other than within doesn't quench the thirst.
Consider within as having a speaker phone through an additional sense. Prayer for external things is not much, but if in need, unless for welfare of others...
Speak as if you have no doubt you are heard, that the hearer is immediately present. Let go of the fruits as if you know you have been heard. Keep doing as needed but focus on the offering or request, the object of concentration, not on whether the fruits are had at the time if possible. Often we pray for coal as goes the allegory, yet digging deeper there are more precious jewels, the deeper the more priceless.
It's not whether prayer works. It's whether you can bring it to work. It is your creation.
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