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OfflineLucisM
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Registered: 03/28/15
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What are your thoughts on this line of thinking?
    #28441192 - 08/21/23 12:17 AM (5 months, 5 days ago)

I am not an atheist or a theist.  Both experiences arise from a state of consciousness so both can be correct based on the one having a particular experience.


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OfflineKmacmo
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Lucis] * 1
    #28441217 - 08/21/23 01:23 AM (5 months, 5 days ago)

Your experiences can make you believe things but that doesn't make your beliefs fact or true. It's just your best guess.
I don't believe anyone knows for a fact that there is a god or not a god its just peoples opinions


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Onlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Lucis] * 2
    #28441270 - 08/21/23 05:49 AM (5 months, 5 days ago)

I agree. If everything is a based in consciousness then of course deity exists, imo, but it doesn't need to be a thing for those not inclined.


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Invisiblespinvis
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Registered: 09/15/20
Posts: 586
Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28441274 - 08/21/23 06:10 AM (5 months, 5 days ago)

Hermann Hesse - Siddhartha;
"For every true statement there is an opposite one that is also true; that language and the confines of time lead people to adhere to one fixed belief that does not account for the fullness of the truth. Because nature works in a self-sustaining cycle, every entity carries in it the potential for its opposite and so the world must always be considered complete.

. . .

In every truth the opposite is equally true. For example, a truth can only be expressed and enveloped in words if it is one-sided. Everything that is thought and expressed in words is one-sided, only half the truth; it all lacks totality, completeness, unity. When the Illustrious Buddha taught about the world, he had to divide it into Samsara and Nirvana, into illusion and truth, into suffering and salvation. One cannot do otherwise, there is no other method for those who teach. But the world itself, being in and around us, is never one-sided. Never is a man or a deed wholly Samsara or wholly Nirvana; never is a man wholly a saint or a sinner."


Hermann Hesse - Demian;
"We always limit our personality much too narrowly! We always count as pertaining to our person only what we recognize as individual differences that set us apart. But we’re comprised of everything that comprises the world, each of us, and just as our body bears within it the lines of evolutionary descent all the way back to the fish and even much farther beyond that, in the same way our soul contains everything that has ever dwelt in human souls. All the gods and devils that ever existed, whether among the Greeks, Chinese, or Zulus, are all inside us, they exist there as possibilities, as wishes, as ways of escape. If mankind died out except for a single halfway-gifted child that had received no education, that child would rediscover the whole course of events, it would be able to produce again the gods, demons, Edens, positive and negative commandments, the Old and the New Testament."


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Invisibleconnectedcosmos
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Registered: 02/07/15
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro]
    #28441276 - 08/21/23 06:11 AM (5 months, 5 days ago)

You can't have a theist without an atheist

:wink:

You have to exist and be sentient in order to have a belief at all , I like to think I build my philosophical viewpoints off that ground :lol:

Perspective plays a lot into this.. or truth / reality / fact ... those three are very loaded words :strokebeard:


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54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?


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Onlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
Posts: 2,696
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #28441344 - 08/21/23 07:50 AM (5 months, 5 days ago)

"For every true statement there is an opposite one that is also true"

"You can't have a theist without an atheist"

Does dependent origination counter these? The theism is more complicated, but as obscurations depend on the one, and not the reverse. Then the polarities would not represent the totality because one transcends them.

I was looking at antonyms of transcendence, and one came up, immanence, suggesting "that something is present within the very nature of things and is not separate from them."

Logical, yet missing? Implying that the polarities are not obscurations of, the same as, the one thing.


Edited by syncro (08/21/23 07:51 AM)


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OfflineAnattaAtman
Mad Bodhisattva

Registered: 09/25/21
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Lucis] * 3
    #28441481 - 08/21/23 09:11 AM (5 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Lucis said:
I am not an atheist or a theist.  Both experiences arise from a state of consciousness so both can be correct based on the one having a particular experience.




The definition of Truth is: That which works. This means there can be two different
truths about the same subject, when they both work. Theism seems to work for people like
Asannte, so that's okay. It doesn't work for me, though, so for me there is only one Truth,
which is buddhist atheism.


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Invisiblespinvis
Stranger

Registered: 09/15/20
Posts: 586
Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro] * 2
    #28441564 - 08/21/23 10:32 AM (5 months, 4 days ago)

There's a coin, for example on one side somebody is theistic, the other side atheistic. The sides don't transcend or ascend the other, since they're all part of the same coin.


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Onlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
Posts: 2,696
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: spinvis]
    #28442106 - 08/21/23 07:44 PM (5 months, 4 days ago)

Yet the coin, I was thinking of as the metallic soul in alchemy, transcends its faces.


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Invisiblespinvis
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Registered: 09/15/20
Posts: 586
Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro] * 2
    #28442374 - 08/22/23 03:57 AM (5 months, 4 days ago)

Two translations of verse 21 of the Total Space of Vajrasattva (rDo rje sems dpa’ nam mkha’ che), a text of the mind division of atiyoga, that fits here:
Quote:

"A path to purity that proceeds from level to level
Does not agree with the teaching of no action.
If there were truly paths to travel, one would never
Reach one’s goal, just as there is no limit to space."




Quote:

"The path of purity that leads higher and higher
Does not correspond with the nature beyond action.
Were there really a path to tread,
Just like the bounds of the sky, one would never arrive."




The coin is just the coin. If it where to transcend its faces, its faces would automatically transcend with it, since both faces are attached to it. The coin is viewed from its rim instead, both faces existing together.


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Onlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: spinvis]
    #28442390 - 08/22/23 04:59 AM (5 months, 4 days ago)

The vajra person saying that has done nor prescribes no practice? No practice is practice. As for practices of form, experience shows there is no difference. Btw I love Mahamudra and such like that.


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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Kmacmo] * 2
    #28442577 - 08/22/23 09:14 AM (5 months, 3 days ago)

No teaching. No teacher. No student -Papaji

The only truth is being.

Beliefs exist as a concept of the mind, the mind only thinks it knows, and even then knowledge is limitless.

The only truth is pure awareness and being-ness.

In that state, there is no questions, beliefs, or dramas to be had for all is already known. Simply existing as such, in and as eternity - there are no questions. It all just is.


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"In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old
In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser
In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter
As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms
And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply
Different ways in which The
All-That Is
Perceives Itself"


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Invisiblespinvis
Stranger

Registered: 09/15/20
Posts: 586
Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28442586 - 08/22/23 09:42 AM (5 months, 3 days ago)

It's attributed to:
Quote:

Garab Dorje (Tibetan: དགའ་རབ་རྡོ་རྗེ་, Wylie: dga’ rab rdo rje) was the semi-historical first human to receive the complete direct transmission teachings of Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen from Vajrasattva. Garab Dorje then became the first teacher of Dzogchen ("Great Perfection", also called Ati Yoga) teachings according to Tibetan buddhist and Nyingma school traditions.

Garab Dorje transmitted the complete empowerments of Dzogchen to Manjushrimitra, who was regarded as his chief disciple. Padmasambhava is also known to have received the transmission of the Dzogchen tantras directly from Garab Dorje.

Garab Dorje summarized his teaching as follows: The nature of mind is the original Buddha without birth or cessation, like the sky! When you understand that, all apparent phenomena are beyond birth and cessation. Meditating means letting this condition be as it is, without seeking.




I've posted the full root text which includes all verses, and his "famous" three statements if you're interested in reading them. I can highly suggest the book The Golden Letters: The Three Statements of Garab Dorje, First Dzogchen Master for further reading with regards to its practice.

Another example (from the book):

Quote:

In Dzogchen there is no transforming of impure phenomena into pure phenomena, because whatever phenomena may manifest to the senses are perfect just as they are. They are spontaneously perfected (Ihun rdzogs) because they are manifestations of the nature of mind (sems-nyid kyi snang-ba), of the potentiality of the inexhaustible energy (rtsal) of the mind. In the Dzogchen teachings, the nature of the mind is likened to a mirror, and phenomena are like the reflections seen in that mirror. Whether these reflections are good or bad, beautiful or ugly, pure or impure, they in no way modify or limit the nature of the mirror. It is the same with one's own nature of mind.




Edited by spinvis (08/22/23 10:03 AM)


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: spinvis]
    #28442865 - 08/22/23 02:01 PM (5 months, 3 days ago)

Everyone is a theist, the difference being in what occupies that part of the mind.


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OfflineSvetaketu
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Lucis] * 1
    #28442964 - 08/22/23 03:57 PM (5 months, 3 days ago)

If I'm being honest, most of the logic in this thread appears to me as confused nonsense.

There either is or isn't a god, it cannot be both. Our experiences, beliefs, and opinions have no bearing on whether there actually is a deity.

There also appears to be several different definitions of both atheist and theist in use, so the meaning is pretty much entirely lost in the weeds.


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Invisiblespinvis
Stranger

Registered: 09/15/20
Posts: 586
Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Svetaketu]
    #28443377 - 08/23/23 01:52 AM (5 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Svetaketu said:
If I'm being honest, most of the logic in this thread appears to me as confused nonsense.

There either is or isn't a god, it cannot be both. Our experiences, beliefs, and opinions have no bearing on whether there actually is a deity.

There also appears to be several different definitions of both atheist and theist in use, so the meaning is pretty much entirely lost in the weeds.




So your God obviously has a limit according to your current belief. God either exists or not. Why would you believe God is so constrained to such a narrow viewpoint? If God is truly God, all different viewpoints are God's.


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Onlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
Posts: 2,696
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: spinvis]
    #28443559 - 08/23/23 07:58 AM (5 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

In Dzogchen there is no transforming of impure phenomena into pure phenomena, because whatever phenomena may manifest to the senses are perfect just as they are. They are spontaneously perfected (Ihun rdzogs) because they are manifestations of the nature of mind (sems-nyid kyi snang-ba), of the potentiality of the inexhaustible energy (rtsal) of the mind. In the Dzogchen teachings, the nature of the mind is likened to a mirror, and phenomena are like the reflections seen in that mirror. Whether these reflections are good or bad, beautiful or ugly, pure or impure, they in no way modify or limit the nature of the mirror. It is the same with one's own nature of mind.




Yet somehow in this, I don't think they are saying not to sit. Wonderful paradox. It's like nature is nature, the teacher puts on a robe, and speaks. Yet nature is nature, having no such need. :crankey:


Edited by syncro (08/23/23 08:15 AM)


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Onlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: Svetaketu] * 1
    #28443560 - 08/23/23 08:00 AM (5 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

There either is or isn't a god, it cannot be both. Our experiences, beliefs, and opinions have no bearing on whether there actually is a deity.




It's like considering the ocean. Whether there are waves in it are beside the point and doesn't change the ocean.


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Onlinesyncro
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro]
    #28443565 - 08/23/23 08:05 AM (5 months, 3 days ago)

It reminds me of a story. A form of Vishnu, I think Rama, was walking by disciples who were arguing the same thing, in effect some saying, there is no deity! He just smiled and kept walking, the implication being it is fine either way.


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Invisibleconnectedcosmos
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Re: What are your thoughts on this line of thinking? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28443568 - 08/23/23 08:06 AM (5 months, 3 days ago)

I was going to literally use the same metaphor :lol:

If I see just water in the ocean and you see waves, who's right?

If you want "ocular"/"scientific" proof of God you won't ever get it , for the same reason physicist will never find "substance" or what an object is made of

It's not some giant puffcloud or some old man with a beard in the sky , try to find your self

What happens when you ask well where did this come from or what is this made of? Eventually you'll trail off into the unknown - same with trying to find your self , there will always be a mystery


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54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?


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