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spinvis
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The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga 3
#28440736 - 08/20/23 02:48 PM (5 months, 5 days ago) |
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Came across this little gem in my recommendations. It's a little series from Swami Tadatmananda (Advaita Vedanta) on the 'Eight Limbs of Yoga' from Patanjali. Which is very similar to 'Kakuan Shion Zenji & Jion Oshō's The Ten Oxherding Pictures' used in Zen Buddhism, and 'Kamalaśīla's The Nine Mental Abidings' used in Tibetan Buddhism.
Here Swami explains and breaks down, in easy to understand modern language, each of Patanjali's Eight Limbs used in Yoga.
Potentially this can clarify and add something to the threads and discussions therein that are active at the moment, with regards to mystical experiences without tryptamines, and how you'd go about it. Swami himself coincidentally is an old school hippy very familiair with tryptamines. 
Quote:
Patanjali's extraordinary eight-step (ashtanga) method of meditation can lead you to the state of samadhi. His ancient teachings become much more accessible with the help of modern psychology and personal insights gained through decades of practice.
For the rishis, the sages of ancient India, the practice of yoga and meditation was a crucial part of a process of spiritual growth that culminates in the realization of your true self, atma, the so-called inner divinity. This personal discovery is commonly called enlightenment, and it results in perfect contentment (ananda) and inner peace (shanti) that never fades away.
More than 1500 years ago, the great rishi Patanjali composed his famous Yoga Sutras, a Sanskrit text considered the source scripture and foundation for the practice of yogic meditation. Patanjali's text consists of just 196 sutras that describe an exceptionally powerful system of meditation.
The Yoga Sutras are highly analytical in nature. Detailed study can be extremely helpful for meditation teachers, but fortunately, it's not essential for practitioners. On the other hand, practitioners can benefit tremendously from the many brilliant insights found in the sutras, especially Patanjali's division of yogic practice into eight individual steps, eight angas or limbs.
Psychology of Samadhi – Based on Patanjali's Yoga Sutras & 45 Years Personal Practice https://youtu.be/UOb2qwDyKfA
Patanjali's Eightfold Path to Samadhi – The Psychology of Samadhi: 2 https://youtu.be/6f4Mk0QHalY
Ekagrata — One-Pointed Concentration — The Psychology of Samadhi: 3 https://youtu.be/ukA18eldRto
Transcending the Mind, Abiding in Pure Awareness – The Psychology of Samadhi: 4 https://youtu.be/bSQrlf4AKVs
Quote:
History of Yoga, the Path of my Ancestors is a 6000 year journey into origin, evolution & development of yoga. The story explores the elements of Yoga in Harappa Civilization, Veda, Jainism, Buddhism, Sufism, Hath-Yogic practices of medieval times & other peripheral doctrines. The film ends in 19th century where modern science acknowledges the potential of yoga in a new light.
History of Yoga https://youtu.be/JoRwXMLsVis

Edited by spinvis (10/09/23 12:43 PM)
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 1
#28441093 - 08/20/23 08:39 PM (5 months, 5 days ago) |
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Watching!
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28441149 - 08/20/23 10:16 PM (5 months, 5 days ago) |
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I like the improvement of production, with the music in between, and the images, also the enrichment in the terminology.
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28441156 - 08/20/23 10:24 PM (5 months, 5 days ago) |
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It appears his videos have had that for some time, though I remember more of him talking only which is enjoyable as well.
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro]
#28441220 - 08/21/23 01:41 AM (5 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: I like the improvement of production, with the music in between, and the images, also the enrichment in the terminology.

Very true! Compared to his older videos the production quality certainly improved!
He describes he had to go to a Yogi that explained and broke it down for him, because even with his broad knowledge of Advaita Vedanta he couldn't fully understand the Sutras of Patanjali. Which just shows how cryptic some of these instructions can be, if approached without somebody that is knowledgeable in them next to you.
What was most funny was the point were he was concentrating so hard on the point between his eyebrows that it kept resulting in a headache because his eyes kept looking at it
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 1
#28441292 - 08/21/23 06:38 AM (5 months, 5 days ago) |
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Yeah he says, after my eyes were crossing for about three years... 
It's interesting how thorough in the steps he tends to be, meaning a lot in the necessity of the preliminaries, and I was thinking it can sound overwhelming. When an ordained monk, as if I would know, but they want to address the most advanced potential in a student, for the types that will actually, you know, follow the instructions.
I think these are with the tendencies and abilities of the student, and I contrast that with some teachings that will say, all of these preliminaries, and including samadhi, are contained in that one mantra, for example, Om Namah Shivaya.
It is not judging one way over the other, but in however one can. Even if one believes their own devotion is sufficient, they can still benefit greatly with the hatha yoga, pranayam, etc.
Edited by syncro (08/21/23 06:46 AM)
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Buster_Brown
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28441348 - 08/21/23 07:52 AM (5 months, 5 days ago) |
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In #2 -"Emotional problems require emotional solutions, not spiritual solutions."
A questionable position.
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: Buster_Brown] 1
#28441366 - 08/21/23 08:07 AM (5 months, 5 days ago) |
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Agreed. Again, I think depends on the person's approach. Turned another way, emotions can be made useful to spiritual solutions.
The spiritual does free the emotional problems, and emotion is an avenue upward.
I found there are some things I don't agree with the swami, but it comes down to emphasis, and not right or wrong. my opinions
He agrees with that too in humility and the importance of direct experience over words, and individual uniqueness.
Edited by syncro (08/21/23 08:10 AM)
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28441378 - 08/21/23 08:19 AM (5 months, 4 days ago) |
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I still think that the best student will take something like Patanjali's agamas, or the Eightfold path, etc., and follow them as thoroughly as possible. We misfits can grab a gem here and there are stoke our fires.
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: Buster_Brown] 1
#28441486 - 08/21/23 09:15 AM (5 months, 4 days ago) |
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Not really, only natural and healthy. In this context, he meditated over two hours and he thought he took hold of his anger and was able to suppress it. As soon as he saw the same person again, the anger was back, only because his first reaction was to try and bypass his own true self and natural response. After he talked with the person about it, and voiced his anger, only then it subsided naturally.
Fleeing into spirituality can be a natural first response for some and it can offer a safe haven, but it won't solve the underlying issue, in this case his anger towards a person. Only by confronting your demons you'll master them.
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28441525 - 08/21/23 10:03 AM (5 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: I think these are with the tendencies and abilities of the student, and I contrast that with some teachings that will say, all of these preliminaries, and including samadhi, are contained in that one mantra, for example, Om Namah Shivaya.
. . .
It is not judging one way over the other, but in however one can. Even if one believes their own devotion is sufficient, they can still benefit greatly with the hatha yoga, pranayam, etc. I still think that the best student will take something like Patanjali's agamas, or the Eightfold path, etc., and follow them as thoroughly as possible. We misfits can grab a gem here and there are stoke our fires.
It's something that either becomes a part of your lifestyle, or not. Like master Yoda says: 'No! Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try.'
Within Zen we say, as soon as you mention 'I think', you'd missed the point and whatever follows is wrong either way.
I agree with practicing different directions within spirituality. Spread your wings, and taste as much as possible. They all have their own practices, from different active meditations, silent meditations, breathing techniques, inquiries, philosophies etc etc.
I've tasted, and been tasting Chan, Zen, Shaiva Tantra, Sufism, Vajrayana Tantra, a little bit of Neo Tantra, Esoterica, Yoga, Gnosticism. And it's all around here where I'm currently staying, I do not have to travel the world. So there's no excuse, for me at least, not to do it. Although I'd love to visit Nepal and India one day! One can only dream!
Edited by spinvis (08/21/23 10:05 AM)
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 1
#28441558 - 08/21/23 10:28 AM (5 months, 4 days ago) |
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A thing about bypassing, I don't think we can call the spiritual a thing to flee to that is not authentic. We cannot bypass falsely, but the spiritual does not give that. Everything must be met in the spiritual.
I agree the swami's solution is direct and fortunate. I don't separate sadhana from process. He would be implying that samadhi or dhyana is not theraputic process? I don't think so.
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28441561 - 08/21/23 10:30 AM (5 months, 4 days ago) |
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The two hours of meditation was not enough.
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28441575 - 08/21/23 10:42 AM (5 months, 4 days ago) |
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I've seen, and heard of people go totally bonkers that for example do long meditation retreats, without first confronting and dealing with their demons before starting. Yes, it is possible, and everybody follows their own path. But those people needed to go into therapy afterwards to confront their demons before being able to move on.
You can compare it to finding a deserted island, serene and beautiful, but every hour or so a terrible monster keeps showing it's ugly face, just to scare you shitless.
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 1
#28441644 - 08/21/23 11:55 AM (5 months, 4 days ago) |
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Agreed. I can lose my ground doing sadhana and have to stop, or think I have to stop.
Therapy is good, the showing up and speaking in that way.
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro]
#28442369 - 08/22/23 03:31 AM (5 months, 4 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: Agreed. I can lose my ground doing sadhana and have to stop, or think I have to stop.
Therapy is good, the showing up and speaking in that way.
Curious to hear more about that! I also remember you mentioning something about your spiritual direction in another thread a while back. Which direction are you practicing at the moment?
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 2
#28442389 - 08/22/23 04:55 AM (5 months, 4 days ago) |
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The therapy, or the detox in practice? I'll go with the latter. I assume you're familiar with kundalini syndrome in its forms and terms across paths and practices. You described it, bonkers. It manifests in many ways over time. It can manifest anger and such, but more so I believe it is a kind of fatigue, though not like any other. It can be very deep sadness and/or loss of emotional ground, a despair approaching madness. Depending on what is going on with the person, I think it can become associated with walking the shadow, if or when it is for someone be in that eclipse.
After looking more into materials on the afterlife, I've come to associate or consider it, not all the time, but with phases of chaos that are reported to occur immediately after death, depending on the person. This is before they regain the body that is suitable, typically perhaps the astral, or to regain its integrity and vitality to be functional. The association has an aspect of adventure in the possibility of entertaining meditative practice as having much equivalence to passing from the body and beyond.
The practice has pretty much always been yogic tantra, tantra not in the sense of focus on the sexual at all. It is Godhead, Mahapurusha type, mantra heavy with supplementals that may be familiar in the yogas, emphasis on subtle purifications, etc., structured around and for meditation, liberation the core goal, as distracted as we can be, and given are various things around healing, and prana(yam), hatha.
It wouldn't go without saying the meaning that study and contemplation including that we share here has provided; we did pretty good studies or reviews of ACIM and Shankara here I think, plus Buddhism, philosophies, ... what you all provide and sharing in it.
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro]
#28442697 - 08/22/23 10:54 AM (5 months, 3 days ago) |
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First of, thanks for sharing! 
Parts sound awfully familiar to some personal experiences, and experiences from friends/family/acquaintances. Not sure where you're at now in terms of headspace and recovery, but don't give up!
Have you read 'The Tibetan Book of the Dead' and 'The Tibetan Book of the Living and Dying' with regards to your research into materials of the afterlife?
Love mantra singing, I still need to visit one of the kirtans here, only heard and saw recordings so far. It's absolutely amazing and soothing!
I wonder how much different the tantra practices you're doing compared to Shaiva tantra and Vajrayana tantra.
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 1
#28443509 - 08/23/23 07:02 AM (5 months, 3 days ago) |
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There is that, singing, chanting, though the musical aspect fell off over time with dissipation of the group settings. At center stage around meditation is japa, silent repetition. edit
Yes I read the Tibetan Book of the Dead some time ago, not in this recent phase.
^ I assume it's very close to Shaiva tantra, in prana, chakra system, the emphasis of raising the energy. Not so sure about Vajrayana. When scanning around about that, I found it seeming quite a broad category, iirc.
Edited by syncro (09/20/23 05:53 PM)
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28443618 - 08/23/23 09:12 AM (5 months, 2 days ago) |
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I don't like talking about the shadow and such but there have been some synchronicities or connections. I was considering how to say what is the shadow experience, since writing about it I thought, I don't even know what it is, a fading memory in the grosser aspects.
Then I thought of it being a story which connected to the attention in the other thread to Samskara, which in the second meaning also had it as a story, and rite of passage.
So it came together also seen as a part of ascension within, the shadow is a story and a rite of passage in ascension, and fit very well with a big whopping Samskara.
I also associated it with the three corpses in Daoism which I have thought correlate well with the psychic knots, granthis.
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WhoManBeing
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28443649 - 08/23/23 09:40 AM (5 months, 2 days ago) |
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I’ve never taken to meditation. Surely not find sitting much any the time comfortable at all. A therapeutic recline is so very relaxing; legs inclined, back laying at angle. I laugh to think of the term. A therapeutic resting position, well, why not sit in that posture all the time when go to get weight off feet?
Cat naps I’ve learned over the years. Drugs taught me them. As to peak experiences with tryptamines, phenethylamines and anesthetics, a moment comes when a need to let oneself off onto the absorbing climax. Those experiences began to bring about the same feeling on days of no doses. A sweeping wind of tiredness quickly having one recline resting legs and falling into a nap. Only to wake immediately when seem to fall under that rug of sleep. A tryptamine like buzz give body tingles all throughout and a shift in minds view seems as turning onto to a drug as perception so very taken from that of which was previously.
Find humor to seeing a meditation be best done suckling a binky.
-------------------- Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!! Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
Edited by WhoManBeing (08/23/23 09:45 AM)
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: WhoManBeing] 1
#28443667 - 08/23/23 09:58 AM (5 months, 2 days ago) |
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I have not been good at sitting, but there is something about sitting on the floor that optimizes, and one learns about their body to be able sit, strengthening, stretching, and going through the pains likely only forced by group setting that hopefully carries over.
But it doesn't matter. Tilopa says recline like hollow bamboo.
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28443891 - 08/23/23 01:44 PM (5 months, 2 days ago) |
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That sounds awesome and very similar indeed. Love the fact you guys play your own instruments and sing, must be amazing, haven't experienced that here yet since they usually use a playlist from Spotify.
The sessions here usually consist of dancing, followed with either silent or active meditations, followed by inquires/sharings, then either breathing exercises or intimate "sense exercises" alone or with a person or persons (depending on the practice), in between or after the philosophy behind it is explained in detail.
As you know it can be very intense! I remember the first time I was so surprised a couple of simple exercises could have that same euphoric effect and feeling of tryptamines and open me up so completely.
I'll post some more quotes in the future in the usual place with regards to Shaiva tantra and Vajrayana tantra. Should be interesting.
What are the primary writings of Mahapurusha yoga? Is there any reading material online?
Glad to read you connected some of your dots and samskara, those bloody Buddhists definitions 
That gave me a good chuckle reading those posts and its progress/process!
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: WhoManBeing]
#28443920 - 08/23/23 02:06 PM (5 months, 2 days ago) |
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A lot of people relate meditating to sitting in a certain posture. While that is probably the most popular, it's absolutely not a requirement for meditation.
There's loads of other different meditation techniques, from walking, dancing, singing, lying down, visualization, prayer, yoga, breathe, movement, the list goes on.
Basically anything can be made into a meditation exercise, from sports, work, walking, etc. Simplest would be to be aware of your senses including your thoughts and surroundings. Focus on the tip of your nose, or the spot between your eyes. If your senses/thoughts drift off and you become aware of that, just shift your attention back to the spot. You can also count your out breaths, which we use in Zen a lot with newcomers. Find out what you're most comfortable with, and go with that, you can always combine techniques, or switch them up.
A tryptamine like buzz you're describing with body tingling can be easily replicated with breathing techniques.
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 1
#28443975 - 08/23/23 02:40 PM (5 months, 2 days ago) |
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"What are the primary writings of Mahapurusha yoga? Is there any reading material online?"
That comes from a simple mantra given in a progressive stage to accompany other practice, essentially of Mahapurusha.
It has such profound effect over time the term sticks with me.
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WhoManBeing
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 2
#28444120 - 08/23/23 04:39 PM (5 months, 2 days ago) |
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It’s all a teacher student, that of what communicate in detail to action. Farther from shared action, definitions get very loose when spoken outside those sharing act.
-------------------- Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!! Eye was thinking the other day... ahh, thinking never done me no good.
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28446328 - 08/25/23 11:35 AM (5 months, 20 hours ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: I don't like talking about the shadow and such but there have been some synchronicities or connections. I was considering how to say what is the shadow experience, since writing about it I thought, I don't even know what it is, a fading memory in the grosser aspects.
Then I thought of it being a story which connected to the attention in the other thread to Samskara, which in the second meaning also had it as a story, and rite of passage.
So it came together also seen as a part of ascension within, the shadow is a story and a rite of passage in ascension, and fit very well with a big whopping Samskara.
I also associated it with the three corpses in Daoism which I have thought correlate well with the psychic knots, granthis.
Rereading this, your post reminded me of Carl Jung - Psychology and Religion: West and East. P. 131;
Quote:
Everyone carries a shadow…and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
It's good to embrace and explore your shadow, since it's part of you and the whole.
Robert Augustus Masters;
Quote:
There are negative things that we do with our emotions, but our emotions themselves are neither negative nor positive. They simply are.
Edited by spinvis (08/25/23 12:22 PM)
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 1
#28446352 - 08/25/23 12:03 PM (5 months, 20 hours ago) |
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My thought went back to the psychic knots, referring to a previous; they are located at the muladhara in the pelvis region, and at the heart, and at the third eye. This is a relief in a sense as I visualize the journey making three, and not seven like the chakras, though they are in it.
Edited by syncro (08/25/23 12:04 PM)
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28446353 - 08/25/23 12:09 PM (5 months, 20 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Everyone carries a shadow…and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.
Interesting thinking how that can manifest, meaning how does shadow manifest consciously and responsibly?
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28446361 - 08/25/23 12:21 PM (5 months, 19 hours ago) |
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By exploring your shadow in a healthy manner, get to know it fully, so you can embrace it, instead of trying to push it away, trying to resist and ignore it, since it will keep rearing it's ugly head.
Was coincidentally reading this the other day, which fits. He has written some books specifically on this subject such as 'Bringing Your Shadow Out of the Dark: Breaking Free from the Hidden Forces That Drive You'
Robert Augustus Masters;
Quote:
To transcend something is to go beyond it to the point of ceasing to identify with it, so that it becomes an object of our awareness. When this process is healthy, what’s been transcended is not excluded from our being (any more than clouds are excluded from the sky) but rather is “repositioned” and related to in ways that serve our well-being. When transcendence is unhealthy, what has been transcended is excluded from our being, resulting in escapism and disconnection. Where healthy transcendence embraces what’s been transcended, unhealthy transcendence avoids it, making a spiritual virtue out of rising above whatever is deemed “lower” or “darker” elements of our nature. This is dissociation disguised in holy drag.
Edited by spinvis (08/25/23 01:16 PM)
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28455994 - 09/02/23 12:39 PM (4 months, 23 days ago) |
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Poem time! 
When It touches the heart, one knows of this, when's said the body's an abode of bliss.
-
Looking at this again, we can wonder if we have attained some level of samadhi, and depending on source, there are lower levels of samadhi that are fairly easily experienced. But as more than an illustration, the chart can perhaps be seen as a rough indicator, relating samadhi to the level of thoughts quelled in practice, etc.

Recalling what is meant by alambana.
Yogapedia
Quote:
Alambana is a complex concept that has different interpretations in different schools of thought. Vedic philosophy divides alambana into two types: asraya and visaya. It also uses the term to mean “pillar of strength,” referring to God. When this alambana is contemplated, it provides the support or foundation for the mind to travel toward God.
In contrast, Buddhist philosophy sees alambana as a cause or object-condition of knowledge and mental fluctuations. The term can be used to describe the objective base of consciousness. It further divides alambana into three categories, according to their motivations:
Sattva-alambana Dharma-alambana Analambana
asraya and visaya Wikipedia
Quote:
Ālambana may further be divided into asraya and visaya, Radha is asraya and Krishna is visaya; Radha, as the devotee, experienced greater pleasure than Krishna who remained the object of her veneration.[2] Visaya is the potential object of a perceptual consciousness, ālambana is the objective basis which can even be the cause of perceptual or cognition support for a perceptual error.[3] The Nyaya school does not consider the object in front to be the ālambana of the illusory cognition but rather the interfering external element with its own characteristics.[4] The best ālambana for the upasana (worship) of Brahman is Om.[5]
wisdomlib
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Sattvālambana (सत्त्वालम्बन) refers to “that [loving-kindness] which has beings as object” and represents of the three types of Maitrī (“loving-kindness”), according to the 2nd century Mahāprajñāpāramitāśāstra chapter 32.—Accordingly, “the mind of loving-kindness (maitrī-citta) of which we have just spoken is that which has beings as object (sattvālambana). It is found mainly among worldly people practicing the trances or in adepts on the path of practice (śaikṣa) who have not yet destroyed the impurities”.
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Kavyashastra (science of poetry)
Ālambana (आलम्बन) or Ālambanavibhāva refers to “substantial excitant” and represents one of the two types of vibhāva (excitants) according to Mammaṭa.—Basing upon which the basic feeling rati etc. are originated, that is called ālambana-vibhāva. In fact the dramatic personae like Duṣyanta and Śakuntala etc. are considred as ālambana-vibhāva respectively.
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Yoga (school of philosophy)
Ālambana (आलम्बन) refers to a “supporting object” (like the empty sky), according to the the Amanaska Yoga treatise dealing with meditation, absorption, yogic powers and liberation.—Accordingly, as Īśvara says to Vāmadeva: “[...] The conquest of the breath can be achieved by means of [reciting] the three types of Om and by various [Haṭhayogic] mudrās, as well as meditation on a fiery light [or meditation] on a supporting object (ālambana) [like] the empty sky [which are done] in the lotus of the inner space [of the heart]. [However,] having abandoned all this [because it is] situated in the body [and therefore limited], and having thought it to be a delusion of the mind, the wise should practise the no-mind state, which is unique, beyond the body and indescribable. [...]”.
The latter would be presumably Analambana, "that [loving-kindness] which has no object" I'm mixing Yoga and Buddhism here.
Edited by syncro (09/02/23 01:49 PM)
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28460409 - 09/06/23 09:31 AM (4 months, 19 days ago) |
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You really took your time and went deep into it, that's awesome too see and read! Remember that they are pointing at something that's always present, beyond the concepts, teachers and the teachings. Like for example in Shaiva Tantra, Shiva is the underlying reality, always present, awareness at rest, while Shakti is the illusionary dance that's actively happening that you're a part of. Since that example is dualistic in nature, the non-dual view is that all is Shiva. Practice in Tantra is to awaken the awareness that's at rest, Shiva, in yourself, to forget about it afterwards, and serve the rest of creation through action. The same principle can be said about Sankara and his teachings:
Ātmabodha – The Fruits of Self-Knowledge – Verse 46;
Quote:
Enlightened yogis see the entire world in themselves and see everything as non-separate from atma, with the eye of knowledge.
Commentary by Swami Tadatmananda: Those who are enlightened experience duality like everyone else. But, they aren't misled by their experiences, they know the underlying reality because of which everything exists to be non-dual Brahman. Like clay is the underlying reality because of which many pots exists.
Also if it would be something that's attained, it can be lost again, and this would mean that it's something that's apart and seperate from you. This ain't the case, it's always present, you're a part of it, have been and always will be, but most are unaware of it.
Chogyam Trungpa;
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Enlightenment is permanent because we have not produced it; we have merely discovered it.
The eight limbs, ten ox herding pictures, and the nine mental abiding, like the practices in Shaiva Tantra, are a gradual approach in steps, each step making you aware of what's beyond yourself, the teacher, the words and concepts.
There's generally considered to be two different teachers/teachings/students, the gradual and the sudden/immediate. But they both have the same outcome.
Also to quell (To put down forcibly; suppress. To pacify; quiet.) would be a rather violent way of going about it and not advisable. It's yourself you're talking about, so let everything flow freely like it's supposed to, and by means of acceptance, compassion, going through it, and it comes to rest by itself eventually.
Hui-Neng;
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When our mind works freely without any hindrance, and is at liberty to 'come' or to 'go', we attain Samadhi of Prajna, or liberation. Such a state is called the function of 'thoughtlessness'. But to refrain from thinking of anything, so that all thoughts are suppressed, is to be Dharma-ridden, and this is an erroneous view.
So in general, it is clear that it's very difficult for most to move beyond the words and concepts. Some might have a grasp of it what this all might mean intellectually, but they'll focus for example on what they personally experience with the senses in a fleeting moment, but as soon as they start to describe their sensual experience, the moment is already gone and it's changed forever, since it's forever flowing and transforming, so they'll keep your attention pinned on them with beautiful words to tickle the ears, which instead should be on yourself, your actions and practices.
Amongst White Clouds - Unnamed Chinese Hermit;
Quote:
ten thousand things all in this breath grasping hold of emptiness there’s really nothing to say.
Ah well, don't take my rambling for it, I'm just stringing concepts together, become the practice and teachings yourself instead.
Matsuo Basho - Collected Works of Basho and the Haikuists - Haiku by Matsuo Basho;
Quote:
an old pond a frog jumps into the sound of water
Edited by spinvis (09/08/23 01:54 PM)
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 1
#28463647 - 09/09/23 07:02 PM (4 months, 16 days ago) |
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In a friendly way, considering the apparent division between an attributeless, call it tathata, suchness, and say, the bearded lady in the sky, Fredrickananda, Fredericka of The Bliss -
Both are ideas. Consider being tathata in whatever way it happens. It is an idea. It may become without concept in words, so it becomes something like sensation, wordless, and then perhaps morphs into whatever immersion or satori we like to describe or consider indescribable, or it's just Is-ness, of everything or of void, anything in between.
Now, Fredericka is also an idea, a picture, a person of qualities. Her beard may be exquisite. Her weapons are considered identical with her name, bliss, and the mind clearing power of bliss, such grace, etc. Her name and person in all the qualities also represent the totality of everything in this universe and beyond.
This is not different than the idea of tathata as there are steps taken from remembering tathata inititally, frog, pond, plop! From Fredericka of the Bliss, to various qualities to the idea of the absolute, an initial phase of concentration which also happens with tathata - it is all some form of concentration or mind manipulation or control. Some making it to either being without concept, or having the rider of tathata, or an interference of frequency, divinity, which means absolute and without concreteness - that being the same as the thought process of tathata! Or the action of going or letting go into witnessing, for example, letting go at all.
So there is no significant difference in process and effect between tathata, frogplop, and Fredericka, that is, if tathata, the attributeless, is mentioned or considered in any way whatsoever.
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28463687 - 09/09/23 07:40 PM (4 months, 16 days ago) |
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The reason I say in a friendly way is that although you, spinvis, are friendly, some of whom you quote got me going like, oh yeah, put 'em up!
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28465045 - 09/11/23 05:10 AM (4 months, 15 days ago) |
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I enjoyed reading that, and I see where you are going with it, so let's explore it further, with a different kind of idea if you will. 
First off, I'm not seeing a question here, more of an idea on other ideas. Then why don't we ask ourselves what's an idea and where does it come from? An idea is and comes from the accumulated personal knowledge of an individual. And where does that knowledge come from? From our personal past, which is a result of our personal conditioning and indoctrination that we've received during our lives, based on our personal environment.
Since that's the case, we can already see that statements being made (wether it's the dwarf lady with the beard, Buddha, suchness, the tathata, Shiva, etc etc) are false in the sense that what it tries to grasp with words is completely biased towards a certain individuals past, and their conditioning and indoctrination.
I'm skipping letting go and the mind (for now) and come to the witness, witnessing means there's an observer. But what is the observer? It's also the exact same past, the accumulated personal knowledge of an individual.
So then what? Can you actually look without the observer? Without any ideas? Without any concepts? Without any of the past interfering whatsoever?
Yes, you can! But not by concentrating, effort, manipulation, or control. (I'm not saying that these practices aren't filling a purpose for beginners, or certain people with anxiety for example, breath control can be very helpful. Learning to focus for others. Creating awareness for some others. Etc.)
But once you see through this and what it actually all is, that it are just more ideas that somebody created, we're going somewhere!
So for the following to wrap it up I'll use a couple of ideas and concepts originating from Buddhism, haha the irony ! It encapsulates all this.
In Buddhist philosophy there's something called the three marks of existence, namely aniccā (impermanence), dukkha (commonly translated as "suffering", "unsatisfactory," "unease"), and anattā (without a lasting essence).
It seems like they're three separate things, but they're actually not. The three marks of existence are also related to the five aggregates, and all are related to the non-self. (Don't mistake the non-self for a nihilistic idea or concept, this is not what's meant!)
Let's look closer in this example at anattā, in combination with thoughts. There are certain thoughts that pop up and stick (meaning they'll trigger something in you, the observer, that you don't agree with, following in judgement, control, manipulation, concentration, and therefore they have a lasting essence, consuming a huge amount of effort) to you, and there are certain thoughts that don't stick and they'll just move on (without any effort, without a lasting essence). Now, why do certain thoughts stick and others don't? Why, if you for example feel pain, if you exert effort to try and fight, manipulate, control it, it gets worse and worse and worse, but if you actually "go into" the pain, completely accept it and let it be, it becomes much more manageable?
The same principle can be applied to for example 'the quotes that gets you going like, oh yeah, put 'em up!' (I enjoy putting up paradoxical and going against the status quo quotes, since they point at something that otherwise is overlooked .)
So finally we come back to letting go, letting go can only come about by complete and full acceptance of what is, if there's no acceptance, nothing will be let go. If nothing is let go, it'll consume huge amounts of effort, control, concentration, and manipulation to maintain.
So yeah, paradoxes are fun stuff to explore! But don't take it from me, discover yourself!
I largely skipped the concept/idea of the mind on purpose, since that can be a whole thread on its own, rightfully so.
And since you get going on quotes:
 Zen Master Dae-Ju;
Quote:
One day, a Sutra Master came and he questioned Zen Master Dae-Ju. “I understand that you have attained Satori. What is Zen?'”
Dae-Ju said, “Zen is very easy. It is not difficult at all. When I am hungry, I eat; when I am tired, I sleep.”
The Sutra Master said, “This is doing the same as all people do. Attaining satori [Zen enlightenment] and not attaining are then the same.”
“No, no, people on the outside and on the inside are different.'”
The Sutra Master said, “When I am hungry, I eat. When I am tired, I sleep. Why is the outside different from the inside?”
Dae-Ju said, “When people are hungry, they eat. Only the outside, the body, is eating. On the inside, they are thinking, and they have desire for money, fame, sex, food, and they feel anger. And so when they are tired, because of these wants, they do not sleep. So, the outside and the inside are different. But when I am hungry, I only eat. When I am tired, I only sleep. I have no thinking, and so I have no inside and no outside.”

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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 1
#28467173 - 09/13/23 04:25 AM (4 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Can you actually look without the observer? Without any ideas? Without any concepts? Without any of the past interfering whatsoever?
Yes, you can! But not by concentrating, effort, manipulation, or control.
"3.3 When only the essence of that object, place, or point shines forth in the mind, as if devoid even of its own form, that state of deep absorption is called deep concentration or samadhi, which is the eighth rung."
Yoga Sutras
alambana be one with that stuff
  
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28467179 - 09/13/23 04:45 AM (4 months, 13 days ago) |
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Too long since looking at these.
Quote:
Samyama is the finer tool (Yoga Sutras 3.4-3.6)
3.4 The three processes of dharana, dhyana, and samadhi, when taken together on the same object, place or point is called samyama.
3.5 Through the mastery of that three-part process of samyama, the light of knowledge, transcendental insight, or higher consciousness (prajna) dawns, illumines, flashes, or is visible.
3.6 That three-part process of samyama is gradually applied to the finer planes, states, or stages of practice.
The last one bugs me.
Edited by syncro (09/13/23 04:53 AM)
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Buster_Brown
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28467383 - 09/13/23 09:49 AM (4 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: The last one bugs me.
Hmmm well, bug poop creates a lush environment.
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: Buster_Brown] 1
#28467481 - 09/13/23 11:07 AM (4 months, 12 days ago) |
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The only difference in applications of samyama would be in object, I thought. Why and where do we need to do some different samyama? In 3.3 above, the object (of concentration) is essentially no object.
Always a different application. All good. Always the same application.
Edited by syncro (09/13/23 11:24 AM)
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28468548 - 09/14/23 07:05 AM (4 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: "3.3 When only the essence of that object, place, or point shines forth in the mind, as if devoid even of its own form, that state of deep absorption is called deep concentration or samadhi, which is the eighth rung."
Yoga Sutras
alambana be one with that stuff
   
Quote:
syncro said: Too long since looking at these.
Quote:
Samyama is the finer tool (Yoga Sutras 3.4-3.6)
3.4 The three processes of dharana, dhyana, and samadhi, when taken together on the same object, place or point is called samyama.
3.5 Through the mastery of that three-part process of samyama, the light of knowledge, transcendental insight, or higher consciousness (prajna) dawns, illumines, flashes, or is visible.
3.6 That three-part process of samyama is gradually applied to the finer planes, states, or stages of practice.
The last one bugs me.
Here is a different translation from the Yoga Sutras chapter 3 (made by I. K. Taimni and Iqbal Kishen), which might help to show it in a different angle/light, but also that what it describes are one of the gradual steps or stages within the Yoga practice used for realization.
Quote:
1. Concentration is the confining of the mind within a limited mental area (object of concentration).
2. Uninterrupted flow (of the mind) towards the object (chosen for meditation) is contemplation.
3. The same (contemplation) when there is consciousness only of the object of meditation and not of itself (the mind) is Samādhi.
4. The three taken together constitute Saṃyama.
5. By mastering it (Saṃyama) the light of the higher consciousness.
6. Its (of Saṃyama) use by stages.
Anyway, let me qoute from an often overlooked and mostly unknown (weirdly enough) Gita with regards to meditation/concentration/any action, including its commentary. It's a single verse taken from 'The Ashtavakra Gita', one of the clearest Hindu/Vedanta texts on non-duality in my opinion.
Ramesh S. Balsekar - A Duet of One: The Ashtavakra Gita Dialogue;
Quote:
“You are unattached, actionless, self-effulgent, without blemish. This indeed is your bondage, that you practice meditation.” (15)
Commentary: When Ashtavakra says in verse 15 that practicing meditation is the very bondage from which liberation is sought, the meaning is clear that such meditation presupposes the deliberate action of the ego as the meditator, practicing meditation, with the specific intention of realizing something. And whatever the ego does is creating further cords of bondage. The point is simple. The basic Truth is that the true nature of all sentient beings is pure Consciousness [Awareness] which is the substance of all phenomenal appearances. If this is accepted—and it must be—then anyone wanting to “do” something, in order to “become” enlightened, is surely turning his back on the basic Truth. Any positive action in order to become enlightened presupposes the existence of an individual entity whereas “enlightenment” is itself the state in which no separate individual can exist. It is for this reason that Ashtavakra calls the “practicing of meditation” the very bondage from which liberation is sought. In other words, it is only non-volitional motiveless functioning that can lead to the awakening to enlightenment. Any sort of intentional action by way of discipline or practice would necessarily be an insurmountable obstacle to such awakening.
Edited by spinvis (09/14/23 07:06 AM)
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 1
#28468732 - 09/14/23 11:01 AM (4 months, 11 days ago) |
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"Any sort of intentional action by way of discipline or practice would necessarily be an insurmountable obstacle to such awakening."
How about by way of love or enjoyment?
I suppose bhakti coincides with sambhoghakaya, bliss body.
Again I agree in their affirmations but not in their negations. Not to worry. Nobody changes. But really all approaches should be appreciated. If bhakti lives up to what it should be, it includes samadhi and the non-self of phenomena. No one can say what will not bring self-realization.
There is a story of a destined youth who spontaneously had realization upon opening a mango or the like. A ripe soul could upon simply receiving a mantra, be Gate Gate.
Edited by syncro (09/14/23 07:16 PM)
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Buster_Brown
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28468737 - 09/14/23 11:12 AM (4 months, 11 days ago) |
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Nobody changes.
I'm experiencing difficulty changing my inner dialogue.
Using the basis of:
'As I think therefore I am'...I hope to change some habitual reflex 'F' language.
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: Buster_Brown] 1
#28468770 - 09/14/23 12:24 PM (4 months, 11 days ago) |
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I just mean, especially if along in life, it seems people do not leave the philosophies that formed within them at some more pivotal time, lesser habits and stuff not meaning, and if in something that is not aligned or harmful.
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28469438 - 09/15/23 12:10 AM (4 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
“You are unattached, actionless, self-effulgent, without blemish. This indeed is your bondage, that you practice meditation.” (15)
Commentary: When Ashtavakra says in verse 15 that practicing meditation is the very bondage from which liberation is sought, the meaning is clear that such meditation presupposes the deliberate action of the ego as the meditator, practicing meditation, with the specific intention of realizing something. And whatever the ego does is creating further cords of bondage. The point is simple. The basic Truth is that the true nature of all sentient beings is pure Consciousness [Awareness] which is the substance of all phenomenal appearances. If this is accepted—and it must be—then anyone wanting to “do” something, in order to “become” enlightened, is surely turning his back on the basic Truth. Any positive action in order to become enlightened presupposes the existence of an individual entity whereas “enlightenment” is itself the state in which no separate individual can exist. It is for this reason that Ashtavakra calls the “practicing of meditation” the very bondage from which liberation is sought. In other words, it is only non-volitional motiveless functioning that can lead to the awakening to enlightenment. Any sort of intentional action by way of discipline or practice would necessarily be an insurmountable obstacle to such awakening.
Would Tadatmananda agree? Those fellers can't just wipe out purification, concentration, etc, it so broad throughout, as if us living here couldn't use them. I get it though, presence is presence.
And practice is not so much about doing something to be enlightened, but to refine the system.
And it's not so much doing it for realization, but because we already have realizations, in absorbed states, enjoyment. Sadhana can be most purifying on all levels like nothing other I know of.
Edited by syncro (09/15/23 12:16 AM)
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28469439 - 09/15/23 12:12 AM (4 months, 11 days ago) |
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What quote was I replying to? I saw it somewhere. There I found it.
Edited by syncro (09/15/23 12:16 AM)
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 2
#28469745 - 09/15/23 08:39 AM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: Would Tadatmananda agree? Those fellers can't just wipe out purification, concentration, etc, it so broad throughout, as if us living here couldn't use them. I get it though, presence is presence.
And practice is not so much about doing something to be enlightened, but to refine the system.
And it's not so much doing it for realization, but because we already have realizations, in absorbed states, enjoyment. Sadhana can be most purifying on all levels like nothing other I know of.
It doesn't say to wipe out the various practices, just that once you have seen through the bucket of water, instead of encountering a reflection of the water like you normally would, there's not even a bottom anymore to hold the water. Also, consider what Buster wrote, I think therefore I am, is in the same vein as, as long as you think and believe you need refining, or purifying on some level, you will. Not to say that this is a bad thing, or a good thing, it just is, in the same way that a knife doesn't cut itself, and a light doesn’t need to shine on itself. Or that it stops there, while it's just the beginning. That's why, in for example Tantric practices, it's important to really know, and believe, that you are already complete, refined, purified, exactly the way you are now, with all the shortcomings you might think or believe you have. The same message is written in these verses from 'The Ashtavakra Gita'.
Quote:
“Dear child, long have you been caught in the bonds of identification with the body. Sever it with the sword of Knowledge, and be happy.” (14) “You are unattached, actionless, self-effulgent, without blemish. This indeed is your bondage, that you practice meditation.” (15) “It is you who pervade this universe, and this universe exists in you. You are truly pure Consciousness by nature. Be not petty-minded.” (16) “Abide in that Consciousness which you are—unconditioned, immutable, formless, serene and imperturbable, of unfathomable intelligence.” (17)
And if you struggle with that, whatever the reason, for example a certain thought pattern and belief from your past is interfering, you are encouraged in Tantric practices to look at why that is, what is causing that belief in you. And to work through this with various practices, through those deeply seated and rooted ideas, to accept them for what they were, that they served their purpose at a certain time, and that you're completely okay regardless. And this can be very dark and difficult to do. Also knowing Ramesh S. Balsekar was the student of Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, and contemporaries of Ramana Maharshi and Wei Wu Wei amongst others, and the text an important piece of Hindu/Advaita Vedanta practices, I don't doubt Swami Tadatmananda knows about it and agrees with its meaning. But to show it from a different angle, below is the commentary on this verse from Swami Chinmayananda. Emphasis mine.
Quote:
निःसङ्गो निष्क्रियोऽसि त्वं स्वप्रकाशो निरञ्जनः। अयमेव हि ते बन्धः समाधिमनुतिष्ठसि॥१५॥
niḥsaṅgo niṣkriyo'si tvaṁ svaprakāśo nirañjanaḥ, ayam-eva hi te bandhaḥ samādhim-anutiṣṭhasi. (15)
निःसङ्गः – unattached; निष्क्रियः – actionless; असि – are; त्वम् – you; स्वप्रकाशः – self-effulgent; निरञ्जनः – without taints, (stainless); अयम् – this; एव – indeed; हि – surely; ते – your; बन्धः – bondage; समाधिम् – meditation; अनुतिष्ठसि – practice
15. You are unattached, actionless, self-effulgent and without any taints. ‘You practise meditation,’ and this indeed is your bondage.
As the Self, you are unattached with your body-mind equipments and with their perceived objects or entertained thoughts. The post is unattached with every part of the ghost. It is the limited, the finite alone that can act; the Self, being all-pervading and infinite, is ever ‘actionless’ (niṣkriyaḥ). Where will the all-pervading act, as It has no field other than Itself to act. In Its supreme Perfection It can desire nothing, and without a desire how can action ever spring forth? As Consciousness, the Self is ‘self-effulgent’ (sva-prakāśaḥ) and this light of Consciousness is never dimmed as It is ‘without any taints’ (nirañjanaḥ). Beyond vāsanās, illumining them, revels the pure seat of Consciousness, the Self and as such It is stainless. The Consciousness in us illumines for us our gross, subtle and causal bodies.
The Self is ever free; therefore, It needs no meditation. So long as we are meditating, there are still traces of the ego in us, which alone can aspire for the Selfhood and practise meditation. One who is trying to sleep, so long as he is trying, he is not asleep. Once having reached sleep, the sleeper is no more trying to sleep. It is only the waker who can try to gain his sleep state. In the same way, so long as an individual is meditating, he has not apprehended the state of pure Consciousness.
Rare indeed are the seers of the calibre of Aṣṭāvakra, who has the audacity to declare, so openly, that to meditate upon the ever free and the ever liberated supreme Reality is itself a symptom of the meditator's state of bondage. The limited alone will strive to reach the unlimited; the bound and the shackled alone need struggle to attain Liberation.
To a sincere student of meditation, this verse has a precious secret suggestion. When all other thoughts have subsided, the mind and, therefore, the ego survives itself with the subtle vanity, ‘I am meditating’. Even this idea must be finally given up. So long as one maintains the awareness that ‘I am trying to sleep’, he cannot enter the state of sleep. ‘I meditate’ is perhaps the last lingering thought in almost all the seekers in higher meditation. The moment even this vanity is given up, ‘the ego completely disappears into the vision of the Reality’. In short, in the supreme silence of meditation, a seeker should give up even the idea of ‘doership’ experienced within him, as ‘I am meditating’. This seems to be the mystic import of this direct advice.
In Yogavāsiṣṭha also we read verses indicating the same import.
So too the awareness 'I am the Self’ is never broken in the man of samādhi. How can then he meditate? Upon what? And why should he?
Vasiṣṭha concludes in wonderment.
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 2
#28469865 - 09/15/23 10:36 AM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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What is this tendency of a teacher who finds something, to insist it is only his thing that works, and accuse other ways of being caught up in ego? Who's meditation is limited to some thought, I am meditating? It is meditation that goes beyond the idea.
To live and speak at all is hypocrisy then. We should treat equally needing to go the grocery store. As said, the teaching is fine if it's never spoken. Otherwise it joins purpose. It is a sadhana, reading Vasistha. It is purpose quoting to leave behind purpose.
Who here is truly empty of volition? These are methods that do the same thing, language, form. It is not needed, but for the incarnate, something, insight, entheogens, ...
The mystical does not hide itself because we want to go after it. It hides itself because we are donkeys. Donkeys that are nevertheless the pure resplendent Brahman. Who knows that, how often? Who sits here at the machine and knows their body as Brahman? No, we get glimpses because we hunt, even if the non-hunter wants to say he is not hunting. He is lying in wait, an effective way.
These serve the same purpose, and give the same effect. Sound and form does not negate Brahman. The name of Brahman is Brahman.
They must say to the tree, why do you reach for the sun? And say to the flower, why do give yourself beauty and scent for the bee?
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 2
#28469894 - 09/15/23 11:06 AM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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Another way, perhaps it can be seen that ourselves are conglomerations of karma, fruits of action. As mahamudra burns karma, so does mantra. The fire is the same. The void is the same.
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28469934 - 09/15/23 11:55 AM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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It's the judgement of the person that makes it right or wrong, and that says something about the person. There are also spiritual practices, and religions who will openly declare their way is the only way that's correct, forgetting the time period, region, and contexts it was written in, and that says something about the persons declaring that. That is the attachment some people have towards it, while the practice is to let go of all these attachments.
However, these ancient spiritual teachings are equally valid, they're not right or wrong, since they're all pointing towards the moon. And they're all trying to help the student in their own ways.
Robert F. Olson; Jianzhi Sengcan - The Mind of Absolute Trust;
Quote:
The Great Way isn’t difficult for those who are unattached to their preferences. Let go of longing and aversion, and everything will be perfectly clear. When you cling to a hairbreadth of distinction, heaven and earth are set apart. If you want to realize the truth, don’t be for or against. The struggle between good and evil is the primal disease of the mind. Not grasping the deeper meaning, you just trouble your mind’s serenity. As vast as infinite space, it is perfect and lacks nothing. But because you select and reject, you can’t perceive its true nature. Don’t get entangled in the world; don’t lose yourself in emptiness. Be at peace in the oneness of things, and all errors will disappear by themselves.
Meditation is one of the practice "tools" to help you realize, once that's done, there's really no need anymore for the tool. Like medicine, once you're healed, you've got no need medicine anymore, since you're whole.
Gautama Buddha - The Alagaddūpama Sutta - Middle Discourses 22 - The Simile of the Snake;
Quote:
“Monks, I will show you how the Dharma is comparable to a raft, that is for crossing over [the waters for the far shore], not for the purpose of grasping. Listen and pay close attention, I will speak.” “Yes, venerable sir,” the monks replied. The Blessed One said this: “Monks, suppose a man in the course of his journey saw a great stretch of water, whose near shore is dangerous and fearful and whose far shore is safe and free from fear, but there is no ferry or bridge for going across to the far shore. Then he thinks: ‘There is this great stretch of water, whose near shore is dangerous and fearful and whose far shore is safe and free from fear, but there is no ferry or bridge for going across to the far shore. Suppose I collect grass, wood, branches and leaves, and bind them together into a raft, and supported by the raft and using my hands and feet, I go safely across to the far shore.’ And then the man collects grass, wood, branches and leaves, and binds them together into a raft, and supported by the raft and using his hands and feet, goes safely across to the far shore. Then when he has gone across and arrived on the far shore, he might think thus: ‘This raft has been very helpful to me, since supported by it and using my hands and feet, I went safely across to the far shore. Suppose I were to hoist it on my head or bear it on my shoulder, and then go wherever I want.’ Now, monks, what do you think? By doing so, would that man be doing what should be done with the raft?” “No, venerable sir.” “By doing what would that man be doing what should be done with the raft? Here, monks, when that man has gone across and arrived on the far shore, he might think thus: ‘This raft has been very helpful to me, since supported by it and using my hands and feet, I went safely across to the far shore. Suppose I were to haul it onto dry land or set it adrift in the water, and then go wherever I wish.’ Now, monks, it is by so doing that that man is doing what should be done with that raft. So I have shown you that the Dharma is comparable to a raft, which is for crossing over [the waters to the far shore], not for the purpose of grasping. Monks, having known the parable of the raft, you should abandon even the Teaching, how much more that which is not the Teaching!"
Edited by spinvis (09/15/23 12:01 PM)
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 2
#28470006 - 09/15/23 12:54 PM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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"As mahamudra burns karma, so does mantra. The fire is the same. The void is the same."
I was going to say, Why? Because the mantra is equivalent to Aṣṭāvakra namaha, not me, ego, but that one. The sea, matrika, is of sound forms, and through them as well we can transmute our ignorance that does not exist.
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28470025 - 09/15/23 01:07 PM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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Maybe it is the Gods who choose not to discard the raft, but to adorn it. It is as well for the bhakta, not that they don't go beyond it, but nevertheless keep it.
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connectedcosmos
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 2
#28470754 - 09/16/23 06:35 AM (4 months, 10 days ago) |
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si=ReIvlEv5V3rAxERR
He released this video not long ago
Somewhat related to the discussion
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 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: connectedcosmos] 1
#28470891 - 09/16/23 09:30 AM (4 months, 9 days ago) |
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Whoa, he's going after Gangaji and them in neo-Advaita.
That hits so well, the need for assimilation after instantaneous self-realization. The arguments have been over whether we will get such insights, but they are evident in us. Yet problems remain involving assimilation.
He goes, preparation is a long process, realization is an instantaneous process, then assimilation is another long process, potentially, yet, and he says similar, is it is the wonderful lila, as we can always return to the previous insights.
Thorough preparation is best, but I think, suppose one only does meditation/enquiry without other forms of preparation. If they are consistent, it's not as if purifications and bodily insights and necessary strength, etc., will not develop. What matters is their success in practice. As we do one thing, all else can fall into place.
Suppose you only have five minutes to see a teacher and they know it. They are going to give you core essence and send you on your way. In that sense, preliminaries can be a follow up, and their elements can happen spontaneously.
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28470945 - 09/16/23 10:10 AM (4 months, 9 days ago) |
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If assimilation is akin to digestion, then say, after a practice of mantra etc, it is said meditation itself is the digestion of the meal.
In The Assimilation of Experience by James Swartz, just scanning, I noticed he related assimilation to awareness of the three qualities, tamas, rajas, sattva, the latter being closest to realization, the natures of peace, goodness, purity, helpfulness, the sublime.
They say again and again, bring sattva. I speak about it and it comes, but I'm not very good at its maintenance.
Rajas is activity, always seeking the next thing, or seeking to ever increase, continue something without insight and sattva.
Edited by syncro (09/16/23 10:15 AM)
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 2
#28471041 - 09/16/23 11:32 AM (4 months, 9 days ago) |
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It is a catch 22, the swami says - we can't be fully enlightened until we are fully prepared, but can't be fully prepared until we are enlightened. Then he goes on about working on self-knowledge and preparation in parallel, the non-linear path. From his talk, When will I FINALLY get Enlightened?
"When self-knowledge first arises in your mind, all that conditioning won't just vanish. Your false self-concept won't be immediately transformed because it's do deeply embeded in your thinking." Thus we get glimpses.
"A mere glimpse of my true nature couldn't possibly wipe out all that conditioning." Yet this is said - once it is seen, you are bound. We are bound anyway.
"You have already discovered your true nature, even if the mind doesn't continually abide in that truth."
Edited by syncro (09/16/23 11:35 AM)
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28471895 - 09/17/23 05:25 AM (4 months, 9 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: If assimilation is akin to digestion, then say, after a practice of mantra etc, it is said meditation itself is the digestion of the meal.
In The Assimilation of Experience by James Swartz, just scanning, I noticed he related assimilation to awareness of the three qualities, tamas, rajas, sattva, the latter being closest to realization, the natures of peace, goodness, purity, helpfulness, the sublime.
They say again and again, bring sattva. I speak about it and it comes, but I'm not very good at its maintenance.
Rajas is activity, always seeking the next thing, or seeking to ever increase, continue something without insight and sattva.
Yes, that's a great description! Within Zen we for example sing 'The Heart Sutra', or 'The Gate of Sweet Nectar' before sitting meditation.
The Heart Sutra;
Quote:
Avalokiteshvara while practicing deeply with the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore, suddenly discovered that all of the five Skandhas are equally empty, and with this realisation he overcame all Ill-being.
“Listen Sariputra, this Body itself is Emptiness and Emptiness itself is this Body. This Body is not other than Emptiness and Emptiness is not other than this Body. The same is true of Feelings, Perceptions, Mental Formations, and Consciousness.
“Listen Sariputra, all phenomena bear the mark of Emptiness; their true nature is the nature of no Birth no Death, no Being no Non-being, no Defilement no Purity, no Increasing no Decreasing.
“That is why in Emptiness, Body, Feelings, Perceptions, Mental Formations and Consciousness are not separate self entities.
The Eighteen Realms of Phenomena which are the six Sense Organs, the six Sense Objects, and the six Consciousnesses are also not separate self entities.
The Twelve Links of Interdependent Arising and their Extinction are also not separate self entities. Ill-being, the Causes of Ill-being, the End of Ill-being, the Path, insight and attainment, are also not separate self entities.
Whoever can see this no longer needs anything to attain.
Bodhisattvas who practice the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore see no more obstacles in their mind, and because there are no more obstacles in their mind, they can overcome all fear, destroy all wrong perceptions and realize Perfect Nirvana.
“All Buddhas in the past, present and future by practicing the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore are all capable of attaining Authentic and Perfect Enlightenment.
“Therefore Sariputra, it should be known that the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore is a Great Mantra, the most illuminating mantra, the highest mantra, a mantra beyond compare, the True Wisdom that has the power to put an end to all kinds of suffering. Therefore let us proclaim a mantra to praise the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore.
Gate, Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bodhi Svaha! Gate, Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bodhi Svaha! Gate, Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bodhi Svaha!
However, for example within Kashmir Shaivism (Tantra) it is written; commentary on chapter 5 of the Svacchanda-tantra, by Rājānaka Kṣemarāja;
Quote:
Just as manipulative mantras can bring a heavenly beauty under the control of an ugly man without getting rid of his ugliness, similarly the liberating mantras undo the power of the three bonds, but they do not necessarily quell attachment, aversion, and their products.
According to Tantric teachings, it's only possible by receiving initiation from your Guru. Also it depends on the person wether he will need one session with the Guru, or needs multiple, like you've written as well.
Within Buddhism it emphasize the embodying of compassion towards all life by doing and becoming the teachings. This actually is also an important part of Tantra.
Quote:
syncro said: Whoa, he's going after Gangaji and them in neo-Advaita.
That hits so well, the need for assimilation after instantaneous self-realization. The arguments have been over whether we will get such insights, but they are evident in us. Yet problems remain involving assimilation.
He goes, preparation is a long process, realization is an instantaneous process, then assimilation is another long process, potentially, yet, and he says similar, is it is the wonderful lila, as we can always return to the previous insights.
Thorough preparation is best, but I think, suppose one only does meditation/enquiry without other forms of preparation. If they are consistent, it's not as if purifications and bodily insights and necessary strength, etc., will not develop. What matters is their success in practice. As we do one thing, all else can fall into place.
Suppose you only have five minutes to see a teacher and they know it. They are going to give you core essence and send you on your way. In that sense, preliminaries can be a follow up, and their elements can happen spontaneously.
Not sure who's Gangaji, or neo-Advaita, but that sounds deserved.
Assimilation is indeed the longest one of the bunch. These can vary from changes in your diet, social circles, work, lifestyle, etc etc... To volunteering for example at different non profits to assist inmates, assisted dying, suicide prevention, etc...
Thus by being in close contact with life, and doing the actual work, you'll get to embody the teachings, beyond the Sangha. This is also the last important step within the Ten Ox-Herding pictures: 'X. Entering the Marketplace with Extended Hands'
Edited by spinvis (09/17/23 05:32 AM)
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connectedcosmos
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 2
#28471924 - 09/17/23 05:59 AM (4 months, 9 days ago) |
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I've just read about the 10 ox herding pictures for the first time and  
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 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 2
#28472089 - 09/17/23 08:53 AM (4 months, 8 days ago) |
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"Not sure who's Gangaji, or neo-Advaita, but that sounds deserved."
Gangaji is/was a disciple of Ramana through Papaji. So Tadatmananda is talking about Ramana, who was very unique in needing no practice. Actually as a boy he sat in some lower nook of a temple for years establishing his vision, but had no teacher physically on earth that we know of. Some say his was Shiva in the subtle.
Anyways the criticism is that the Ramana kind of Advaita, and those of Papaji and Gangaji, and I don't want to assume for them too much, but it pays no heed to formal preliminairies, preparations, but just essentially be in the I AM.
As Tadatmananda may be correct in perspective, people are not like Ramana that didn't need instruction and practice in preparation. I'm in his camp in that the sadhanas are crucial gifts to the world. At the same time, no-practice, I AM, is sadhana, imo, and purification occurs nevertheless.
Edited by syncro (09/17/23 08:58 AM)
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: connectedcosmos] 3
#28472149 - 09/17/23 09:39 AM (4 months, 8 days ago) |
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The CC wielding the awemazing orb as mandala vajra in luminous spontaneity.
Actually I didn't know there were vajra mandalas.

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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis]
#28472832 - 09/17/23 05:01 PM (4 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
spinvis said:However, for example within Kashmir Shaivism (Tantra) it is written; commentary on chapter 5 of the Svacchanda-tantra, by Rājānaka Kṣemarāja;
Quote:
liberating mantras undo the power of the three bonds, but they do not necessarily quell attachment, aversion, and their products.
According to Tantric teachings, it's only possible by receiving initiation from your Guru.
Do you have a clickable source of this? I wonder where would attachment and aversion be but in the power of the three bonds? Do the three bonds mean the granthis, psychic knots, or something else?
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28473313 - 09/18/23 04:36 AM (4 months, 8 days ago) |
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I wonder also, if one finds a liberating mantra, who placed it there, and would they also find that one?
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28473354 - 09/18/23 06:04 AM (4 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: Gangaji is/was a disciple of Ramana through Papaji. So Tadatmananda is talking about Ramana, who was very unique in needing no practice. Actually as a boy he sat in some lower nook of a temple for years establishing his vision, but had no teacher physically on earth that we know of. Some say his was Shiva in the subtle.
Anyways the criticism is that the Ramana kind of Advaita, and those of Papaji and Gangaji, and I don't want to assume for them too much, but it pays no heed to formal preliminairies, preparations, but just essentially be in the I AM.
As Tadatmananda may be correct in perspective, people are not like Ramana that didn't need instruction and practice in preparation. I'm in his camp in that the sadhanas are crucial gifts to the world. At the same time, no-practice, I AM, is sadhana, imo, and purification occurs nevertheless.
Thanks for the background info. I finally watched the video and have to agree with Ramana. But I feel like this is more of an issue of personal opinion in my view, and that it says something about the person or people promoting this way is the only correct way. Authority is something that prevents further learning, and doesn't contain the freedom needed.
Quote:
If anyone tells you fire is light, Pay no attention. When two thieves meet they need no introduction: They recognize each other without question.
There are plenty of sudden paths that promote instant awakening over years of preparation and practices. Besides everybody walks his own path and there's not really a fixed way of progression, or starting point (this has been pointed towards in a lot of teachings). People have awakened because of a variety of reasons, not only through spiritual practices, preliminaries and preparing. And there's really no shortcut since you're walking the path of life, it can't be forced in any way, and will happen wether you've done preparation or not. When it does it will definitely shift the consciousness of the person, that's why it's also written, if the mind has shifted, the body will follow. However in terms of, this would be handy knowledge and practice for the person (beforehand), I agree with that sadhanas are crucial gifts, and every school should have a teacher that points to the moon. And I also agree with that there are a lot of fake gurus with empty promises.
The sudden path explained in Zen: Hui Hai - The Zen teaching of Hui Hai on sudden illumination;
Quote:
Q: What method must we practise in order to attain deliverance? A: It can be attained only through a sudden Illumination. Q: What is a sudden Illumination? A: Sudden means ridding yourselves of deluded thoughts instantaneously. Illumination means the realization that Illumination is not something to be attained. Q: From where do we start this practice? A: You must start from the very root. Q: And what is that? A: Mind is the root. Q: How can this be known? A: The Lankavatara Sutra says: ‘When mental processes (hsin) arise, then do all dharmas (phenomena) spring forth; and when mental processes cease, then do all dharmas cease likewise.’ The Vimalakirti Sutra says: “Those desiring to attain the Pure Land must first purify their own minds, for the purification of mind is the purity of the Buddha-Land.’ The Sutra of the Doctrine Bequeathed by the Buddha says: ‘Just by mind-control, all things become possible to us.’ In another sutra it says: ‘Sages seek from mind, not from the Buddha; fools seek from the Buddha instead of seeking from mind. Wise men regulate their minds rather than their persons; fools regulate their persons rather than their minds.’ The Sutra of the Names of the Buddha states: ‘Evil springs forth from the mind, and by the mind is evil overcome.’ Thus we may know that all good and evil proceed from our minds and that mind is therefore the root. If you desire deliverance, you must first know all about the root. Unless you can penetrate to this truth, all your efforts will be vain; for, while you are still seeking something from forms external to yourselves, you will never attain. The Dhyanaparamita Sutra says: ‘For as long as you direct your search to the forms around you, you will not attain your goal even after aeon upon aeon; whereas, by contemplating your inner awareness, you can achieve Buddhahood in a single flash of thought.’ Q: By what means is the root-practice to be performed? A: Only by sitting in meditation, for it is accomplished by dhyana (ch‘an) and samadhi (ting). The Dhyana-paramita Sutra says: ‘Dhyana and samadhi are essential to, the search for the sacred knowledge of the Buddhas; for, without these, the thoughts remain in tumult and the roots of goodness suffer damage.’ Q: Please describe dhyana and samadhi. A: When wrong thinking ceases, that is dhyana; when you sit contemplating your original nature, that is samadhi, for indeed that original nature is your eternal mind. By samadhi, you withdraw your minds from their surroundings, thereby making them impervious to the eight winds, that is to say, impervious to gain and loss, calumny and eulogy, praise and blame, sorrow and joy. By concentrating in this way, even ordinary people may enter the state of Buddhahood. How can that be so? The Sutra of the Bodhisattva-Precepts says: “All beings who observe the Buddha-Precept thereby enter Buddhahood.’ Other names for this are deliverance, gaining the further shore, transcending the six states of mortal being,’ o’erleaping the three worlds, or becoming a mighty Bodhisattva, an omnipotent Sage, a Conqueror! Q: Whereon should the mind settle and dwell? A: It should settle upon non-dwelling and there dwell. Q: What is this non-dwelling? A: It means not allowing the mind to dwell upon anything whatsoever. Q: And what is the meaning of that? A: Dwelling upon nothing means that the mind is not fixed upon good or evil, being or non-being, inside or outside or somewhere between the two, void or non-void, concentration or distraction. This dwelling upon nothing is the state in which it should dwell; those who attain to it are said to have non-dwelling minds—in other words, they have Buddha-Minds!
Can't get anymore direct than this:
Bhagavad Gita;
Quote:
I am the goal, the root, the witness, home and refuge, dearest friend, creation and annihilation, everlasting seed and treasure. . . . All your thoughts, all your actions, all your fears and disappointments, offer them to me, clear-hearted; know them all as passing visions.
Well, maybe this:
Isaiah 45:7;
Quote:
I am he that prepared light, and formed darkness; who make peace, and create evil; I am the Lord God, that does all these things.
Quote:
syncro said:Do you have a clickable source of this? I wonder where would attachment and aversion be but in the power of the three bonds? Do the three bonds mean the granthis, psychic knots, or something else?
That was an excerpt from the book 'Tantra Illuminated: The Philosophy, History, and Practice of a Timeless Tradition', that's solely on the history and path of Kashmir Shaivism, it continues to say for that, further spiritual practices are necessary, and that it has been observed that with the initiation it results in quelling of attachments and aversions, and sums it up in;
Quote:
Therefore, purification of the self—destroying the bonds of āṇava and so on and bestowing capability for the manifestation of Divinity—is achieved through initiation, which is accomplished following the Descent of Power [śaktipāta], which is inferred by observing the disciple’s devotion, their spontaneous desire to approach a guru, and so on. This is taught in the sacred tradition with this verse:
“The essence of insight [into one’s true nature] is given; the saṃskāras of being a bound soul are destroyed. Therefore, [because] it involves giving [dī] and destroying [kṣi], it is known in our system as dīkṣā.”
From quickly glossing over it unfortunately no mention of knots or granthis, so your guess is as good as mine. Anyway, Abhinavaguptas writings are highly recommended reading material on Kashmir Shaivism, and can be found online, it also supports, and explains the sudden path (not saying it doesn't have it's own practices, including sadhana) as follows:
Abhinavagupta - Tantrasāra - The Modes of Realization (chapter 1);
Quote:
When Śiva (i.e. the Light of Consciousness), in his independent freedom, causes himself to appear in a contracted form, we call him ‘the individual self’ (aṇu). And through that same freedom he again illuminates/manifests his real being (svātman) so that his nature as Śiva—the unbounded Light of Consciousness—shines forth.
When that occurs, he may illuminate his real being without needing any method to do so or with such methods—again as an expression of his independent freedom.
Abhinavagupta - Tantrasāra - The Pathless Path - how realization can happen with almost no effort or method (chapter 2);
Quote:
This very Highest Divinity, the self-manifest Light of Consciousness, is always already my very own Being—when that is the case, what could any method of practice achieve? Not the attainment of my true nature, because that is eternally present; not making that nature apparent, because it is constantly illuminating itself; not the removal of veils, because no “veil” whatsoever exists; not the penetration into That, because nothing other than It exists to enter It. What method can there be here, when there is an impossibility of anything separate from That?
Therefore, this whole existence is One reality: Consciousness alone—unbroken by time, uncircumscribed by space, unclouded by attributes, unconfined by forms, unexpressed by words, and unaccounted for by the ordinary means of knowledge. For it is the cause, through its own Will alone, by which all these sources of limitation—from time to the ordinary means of knowledge—attain their own natures. This Reality is free and independent, a mass of bliss, and That alone am I; thus the entire universe is held as a reflection within me.
Anyway, interesting discussion nonetheless!
Edited by spinvis (09/18/23 06:52 AM)
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 1
#28473482 - 09/18/23 09:01 AM (4 months, 7 days ago) |
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If the number one point is suffering and its relief, the thing about the message of no practice is it needs to be practiced. It seems it can be a parallel to being saved by a messiah through confession and acceptance, but not working toward improvement.
We can get sudden insight from the message, but then it is that nothing needs to be done while we carry a mountain of karma and conditioning, that these are the absolute notwithstanding. Of course the no practice addresses, works to dissolve that as good as anything, but no practice needs to be practiced, in mindfulness, witness, being, sitting, serving, but it is a proactivity for a suffering, conditioned being.
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28473525 - 09/18/23 09:40 AM (4 months, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said:
 
The CC wielding the awemazing orb as mandala vajra in luminous spontaneity.
Actually I didn't know there were vajra mandalas.


These beautiful mandalas reminded me of something I read, but forgot where. With regards to the wheel of dharma, every spoke on the wheel is a different path, teaching, individual. Below is from wiki:
Buddhaghosa
Quote:
“It is the beginningless round of rebirths that is called the ’Wheel of the round of rebirths’ (saṃsāracakka). Ignorance (avijjā) is its hub (or nave) because it is its root. Ageing-and-death (jarā-maraṇa) is its rim (or felly) because it terminates it. The remaining ten links [of Dependent Origination] are its spokes [i.e. saṅkhāra up to the process of becoming, bhava].”
Bhagavad Gita - verses 14, 15 and 16, of Chapter 3;
Quote:
"From food, the beings are born; from rain, food is produced; rain proceeds from sacrifice (yagnya); yagnya arises out of action; know that from Brahma, action proceeds; Brahma is born of Brahman, the eternal Paramatman. The one who does not follow the wheel thus revolving, leads a sinful, vain life, rejoicing in the senses."
Anyway, it's also in relation with the Trishula (or the Three Jewels from Buddhism), and Mahadevi, and Parashakti within Kashmir Shaivism for example.
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28473549 - 09/18/23 09:54 AM (4 months, 7 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: Of course the no practice addresses, works to dissolve that as good as anything, but no practice needs to be practiced, in mindfulness, witness, being, sitting, serving, but it is a proactivity for a suffering, conditioned being.
Yes! Awesome summary! Somehow I'm definitely in the corner of non, and it can only be described by what it's not.
Edited by spinvis (09/18/23 09:55 AM)
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 1
#28474237 - 09/18/23 08:35 PM (4 months, 7 days ago) |
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Wait a second, that's not what I meant! 
I said no practice needs to be practiced, but I meant no practice needs to be practiced.
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 1
#28474570 - 09/19/23 05:18 AM (4 months, 7 days ago) |
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"know that from Brahma, action proceeds"
Ramana says this, they all say this pretty much, we are not the doer. I don't mean this as an argument against free will. But what a mindfulness in moment to moment to consider who is the doer.
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28474708 - 09/19/23 08:51 AM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: Wait a second, that's not what I meant! 
I said no practice needs to be practiced, but I meant no practice needs to be practiced.

Quote:
syncro said: "know that from Brahma, action proceeds"
Ramana says this, they all say this pretty much, we are not the doer. I don't mean this as an argument against free will. But what a mindfulness in moment to moment to consider who is the doer.
I really love the approach of Krishnamurti:
Jiddu Krishnamurti;
Quote:
Is it not necessary to understand the thinker, the doer, the actor, since his thought, his deed, his action cannot be separated from him? The thinker is the thought, the doer is the deed, the actor is the action. In his thought the thinker is revealed. The thinker through his actions creates his own misery, his ignorance, his strife. The painter paints this picture of passing happiness, of sorrow, of confusion. Why does he produce this painful picture? Surely, this is the problem that must be studied, understood and dissolved. Why does the thinker think his thoughts, from which flow all his actions? This is the rock wall against which you have been battering your head, is it not? If the thinker can transcend himself, then all conflict will cease: and to transcend he must know himself. What is known and understood, what is fulfilled and completed does not repeat itself. It is repetition that gives continuity to the thinker.
And I also love what Maharshi himself said, very Zen like in it's approach:
Talks with Ramana Maharshi 115;
Quote:
As long as you feel yourself the doer of action so long you are bound to enjoy its fruits. But if you find out whose karma it is, you will see that you are not the doer. Then you will be free. Action without motive does not bind.
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 1
#28474812 - 09/19/23 10:31 AM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JoRwXMLsVis
Quote:
History of Yoga, the Path of my Ancestors is a 6000 year journey into origin, evolution & development of yoga. The story explores the elements of Yoga in Harappa Civilization, Veda, Jainism, Buddhism, Sufism, Hath-Yogic practices of medieval times & other peripheral doctrines. The film ends in 19th century where modern science acknowledges the potential of yoga in a new light.
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 1
#28474836 - 09/19/23 10:51 AM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
“O my devotees! On this path of supreme Bhairava, whoever has taken a step with pure desire, no matter if that desire is slow or intense; it does not matter if he is a Brahmin, if he is a sweeper, if he is an outcast, or if he is anybody; he becomes one with Para-bhairava.”
Abhinavagupta
This is why I thought it somewhat of a contradiction in the statements that the liberating mantra alone is incomplete while understanding that initiation is required. "A step with pure desire" is inclusive.
In other words, initiation happens from near or far, in any circumstance, by any method chosen by the teacher.
Edited by syncro (09/19/23 10:55 AM)
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28474897 - 09/19/23 11:30 AM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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Yes that's correct. It's called Shaktipata.
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 2
#28475052 - 09/19/23 02:15 PM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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Watching video. Recommended!
At 127:10 there is an enactment of the time when Ramakrishna received teachings and had engagement with Totapuri, a strict Advaitan. With much struggle Ramakrishna was said to have finally surpassed his vision of the mother in Kali and entered samadhi for three days.
What was not said is that Totapuri exclaimed how Ramakrishna could have done what took him decades to do. Iirc, in the Gospel of Shri Ramakrishna and other books, the implication was that Ramakrishna turned out to be the teacher of Totapuri, and that bhakti for divine form was not seen as something less as was shown in the relationship. Totapuri had a custom of only remaining in one place for three days, yet stayed with Ramakrishna for 11 months.
This is not to discount Advaita or comment on time taken in any path, but to rid notions of superiority of paths.
Quote:
From Sri Ramakrishna Totapuri had to learn the significance of Kali, the Great Fact of the relative world, and of maya, Her indescribable Power.
One day, when guru and disciple were engaged in an animated discussion about Vedanta, a servant of the temple garden came there and took a coal from the sacred fire that had been lighted by the great ascetic. He wanted it to light his tobacco. Totapuri flew into a rage and was about to beat the man. Sri Ramakrishna rocked with laughter. “What a shame!” he cried. “You are explaining to me the reality of Brahman and the illusoriness of the world; yet now you have so far forgotten yourself as to be about to beat a man in a fit of passion. The power of maya is indeed inscrutable!” Totapuri was embarrassed.
About this time Totapuri was suddenly laid up with a severe attack of dysentery. On account of this miserable illness he found it impossible to meditate. One night the pain became excruciating. He could no longer concentrate on Brahman. The body stood in the way. He became incensed with its demands. A free soul, he did not at all care for the body. So he determined to drown it in the Ganges. Thereupon he walked into the river. But, lo! He walks to the other bank.” (This version of the incident is taken from the biography of Sri Ramakrishna by Swami Saradananda, one of the Master’s direct disciples.) Is there not enough water in the Ganges? Standing dumbfounded on the other bank he looks back across the water. The trees, the temples, the houses, are silhouetted against the sky. Suddenly, in one dazzling moment, he sees on all sides the presence of the Divine Mother. She is in everything; She is everything. She is in the water; She is on land. She is the body; She is the mind. She is pain; She is comfort. She is knowledge; She is ignorance. She is life; She is death. She is everything that one sees, hears, or imagines. She turns “yea” into “nay”, and “nay” into “yea”. Without Her grace no embodied being can go beyond Her realm. Man has no free will. He is not even free to die. Yet, again, beyond the body and mind She resides in Her Transcendental, Absolute aspect. She is the Brahman that Totapuri had been worshipping all his life.
Totapuri returned to Dakshineswar and spent the remaining hours of the night meditating on the Divine Mother. In the morning he went to the Kali temple with Sri Ramakrishna and prostrated himself before the image of the Mother. He now realised why he had spent eleven months at Dakshineswar. Bidding farewell to the disciple, he continued on his way, enlightened.
Sri Ramakrishna later described the significance of Totapuri’s lessons:
“When I think of the Supreme Being as inactive — neither creating nor preserving nor destroying —, I call Him Brahman or Purusha, the Impersonal God. When I think of Him as active — creating, preserving, and destroying —, I call Him Sakti or Maya or Prakriti, the Personal God. But the distinction between them does not mean a difference. The Personal and the Impersonal are the same thing, like milk and its whiteness, the diamond and its lustre, the snake and its wriggling motion. It is impossible to conceive of the one without the other. The Divine Mother and Brahman are one."
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28475194 - 09/19/23 04:14 PM (4 months, 6 days ago) |
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Thanks for that beautiful piece of text. That could've made it even better.
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 1
#28477315 - 09/21/23 03:37 AM (4 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
spinvis said: Buddhaghosa
Quote:
It is the beginningless round of rebirths that is called the ’Wheel of the round of rebirths’ (saṃsāracakka). Ignorance (avijjā) is its hub (or nave) because it is its root. Ageing-and-death (jarā-maraṇa) is its rim (or felly) because it terminates it. The remaining ten links [of Dependent Origination] are its spokes [i.e. saṅkhāra up to the process of becoming, bhava].
Bhagavad Gita - verses 14, 15 and 16, of Chapter 3;
Quote:
From food, the beings are born; from rain, food is produced; rain proceeds from sacrifice (yagnya); yagnya arises out of action; know that from Brahma, action proceeds; Brahma is born of Brahman, the eternal Paramatman. The one who does not follow the wheel thus revolving, leads a sinful, vain life, rejoicing in the senses.
Found some additional text from the Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad. This is part of Jñāna Yoga.
Patrick Olivelle - The Early Upanisads Annotated text and translation - Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad - p. 73;
Quote:
This self (atman) is the honey of all beings, and all beings are the honey of this self. The radiant and immortal person in the self and the radiant and immortal person connected with the body (atman)—they are both one's self. It is the immortal; it is brahman; it is the Whole. This very self (atman) is the lord and king of all beings. As all the spokes are fastened to the hub and the rim of a wheel, so to one's self (atman) are fastened all beings, all the gods, all the worlds, all the breaths, and all these bodies (atman).
Random excerpts:
Bhagavad Gita 4.38;
Quote:
Truly, there is nothing here as pure as knowledge. In time, he who is perfected in yoga finds that in his own Atman.
Patrick Olivelle - The Early Upanisads Annotated text and translation - Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad - p. 121;
Quote:
Clearly, this self is brahman—this self that is made of perception, made of mind, made of sight, made of breath, made of hearing, made of earth, made of water, made of wind, made of space, made of light and the lightless, made of desire and the desireless, made of anger and the angerless, made of the righteous and the unrighteous; this self that is made of everything.
Patrick Olivelle - The Early Upanisads Annotated text and translation - Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad - p. 69;
Quote:
You see, Maitreyi—it is one's self (atman) which one should see and hear, and on which one should reflect and concentrate. For by seeing and hearing one's self, and by reflecting and concentrating on one's self, one gains the knowledge of this whole world.
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 1
#28477644 - 09/21/23 01:04 PM (4 months, 4 days ago) |
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Sri Ram, that which removes concern, the fear, dread of life.
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BrendanFlock
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28478202 - 09/21/23 10:48 PM (4 months, 4 days ago) |
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What do you guys think about the concept called 'in the clear' from scientology?
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: BrendanFlock] 1
#28478358 - 09/22/23 06:28 AM (4 months, 4 days ago) |
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"Scientology followers are given the status of Clear when a person is deemed to be free of the influence of engrams – supposed unwanted emotions or painful traumas which Scientology claims are not readily available to the conscious mind."
Engrams - 'An engram, as used in Dianetics and Scientology, is a detailed mental image or memory of a traumatic event from the past that occurred when an individual was partially or fully unconscious. It is considered to be pseudoscientific[1][2] and is different from the meaning of "engram" in cognitive psychology.[3] According to Dianetics and Scientology, from conception onwards, whenever something painful happens while the "analytic mind" is unconscious, engrams are supposedly being recorded and stored in an area of the mind Scientology calls the "reactive mind".'
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro]
#28478395 - 09/22/23 07:17 AM (4 months, 4 days ago) |
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Who judges that which is unwanted? And what do they do with it after?
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 1
#28478415 - 09/22/23 07:45 AM (4 months, 4 days ago) |
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That which believes it can be harmed, and continues it. Or, there could be the insight which sees through it and forgives, easily said.
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro]
#28478461 - 09/22/23 08:42 AM (4 months, 3 days ago) |
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Beautiful answers! Is that what the scientologist do?
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 1
#28478475 - 09/22/23 08:53 AM (4 months, 3 days ago) |
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Pretty much Acim words.
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28478608 - 09/22/23 11:18 AM (4 months, 3 days ago) |
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I was going through vasanas and the like, engrams perhaps, and came to ego which is addressed there. In any case, for that which binds by separation and guilt, these are addressed the same by looking, being awake, as well the difficult part in the mystery of seeking in the former in the first place, habit.
What is that which is not awake? It does not exist but... habit. The RAM loading at different floors.
I found The Chidakash Gita.
Quote:
1. Jnanis are mindless. To Jnanis, all are the same. They have no slumber, no dreams, nor sleep. They are always in sleep. The sun and the moon are the same to them. To them, it is always sunrise. The glass of a chimney lamp, when covered with carbon, is not transparent. Similarly, the carbon of the mind should be removed.
7. Manas is Jiva; but their positions are different. Jivatman is Paramatman.
8. A man or woman should be educated. What is education? Jiva should know the secret that He is the Paramatman.
9. Paramatman is in Jivatman. The real Mukti is to know the subtle in the gross.
23. Buddhi is the king. Manas is the minister. Manas should be subordinated to Buddhi.
57. 'This world' means Jivatman. The 'next world' means the union of Jivatman and Paramatman.
77. Swami is he who has united the Chit with Sat. Upadhi means the tree of peace. We must take shelter under this 'tree of peace'.
Chit and Sat, consciousness and existence. Upadhi appears to be in the assumption of one with the other.
Quote:
88. 'Ekadashi' means the worship of the ONE. To such a man, everyday is Ekadashi. Those are called 'men' who have such an Ekadashi. A man should think very little about the gross. He should spend much of his time in meditation of the subtle.
Interestingly, Ekadashi is the day of weakest influence of the moon. Fasting on that day is said brings one to Vishnu.
Quote:
92. Vayu (air) is imperishable. It is one, indivisible. It exists in everything. When the glass chimney of a lamp is shut, there is no light. When it is not shut, the lamp shines brightly. If we take 'earth' and imagine it to be sugar, it is sugar only in thought.
The nature of earth is not changed. So also, even if a man becomes a yogi or a Jnani, the nature of the body does not leave him. Manas becomes one with the Brahman, not the body. Jnanis are subject to the limitations of the body. Since their Manas is annihilated, they are not aware of their bodily condition. A man in sleep, if bitten by a cobra, is not aware of the cobra bite and he is not affected by it. Similarly, Jnanis are not aware of their body and hence, the bodily conditions do not affect them. When a letter, written in English or in any tongue, is given to a child of five or six months old, the child throws away that letter and it cannot know what is contained in it. A child of six months old does not at all know the difference between a diamond and a lump of earth. Such children have no idea of the body. They are always in the thought of Atma. Children have no idea of duality. When their brains develop, they become aware of differences. When the brain is not developed, Prana in such a child is in the Sushumna.
94. Our head is like a coconut fruit. In the coconut there is water and kernel. Likewise, there is water and kernel in our head. In the head is Chidakasha. It is the well of Hridayakash. We should draw water from this well and drink it. It is no use digging a well in the earth and drinking water from it.
Chidakasha, space of consciousness, Hridayakash, space of the heart.
Quote:
111. SAT is the one, indivisible. It is the one 'subtle' which is everlasting. CHIT is always changing.
112. When the 'SAT' unites with 'CHIT', the result is Ananda. This Ananda is the Satchitananda, Sri Nityananda, Sri Paramananda. Union of Jiva and Paramatma is Ananda, Yogananda, Paramananda, Satchitananda and Brahmananda.
115. Leave the gross pleasures and enjoy the subtle pleasures. Leave off the physical sleep and enjoy the subtle sleep. Enjoy that sleep which is eternal. This sleep is enjoyed only in our subtle state. Burn to ashes the delusion of the mind.
I suppose correct to say, as a form of Kashmir Shaivism, there is emphasis that sounds much like Bhushunda the ageless sage in the form of a crow in the Yoga Vasistha, all about the pranayam of observing the breath in its phases, spaces between inhalation and exhalation and the exhalation and inhalation, the expansion of which has been called kumbhak.
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 1
#28479646 - 09/23/23 09:11 AM (4 months, 2 days ago) |
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Acim has a sweet hack. As said of ego, the veiling and binding are separation and due guilt, and the guilt of others. Notice seeing innocence has the same effect of uniting Chit and Sat, consciousness and existence - the innocent are no longer bound to manas and body. This shows that ego-is-guilt aligns.
Because all are innocent, I am everything. an affirmy thing
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 3
#28497600 - 10/09/23 12:37 PM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: Our head is like a coconut fruit. In the coconut there is water and kernel. Likewise, there is water and kernel in our head.
 That really cracked me up!
A simpler approach, less confusion of concepts and the so called "ego":
The Zen Teaching of Huang Po - ON THE TRANSMISSION OF MIND;
Quote:
The Master said to me: All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists. This Mind, which is without beginning, is unborn! and indestructible. It is not green nor yellow, and has neither form nor appearance. It does not belong to the categories of things which exist or do not exist, nor can it be thought of in terms of new or old. It is neither long nor short, big nor small, for it transcends all limits, measures, names, traces and comparisons. It is that which you see before you—begin to reason about it and you at once fall into error.
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syncro
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: spinvis] 2
#28498454 - 10/10/23 04:27 AM (3 months, 17 days ago) |
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Make the inner like the outer, and the outer like the inner.
When I slumber, I am in a holy place. Why? Because my eyes are closed. But my eyes are not closed. Do you see? If with eyes closed I am as if in heaven, should not it be so in waking? Perhaps uniting inner and outer is like the unions in prana etc, these at the heart and third eye... Can we be in the third eye without such unions?
Om Tryambaka, Three-eyed One!
edited to correct, sometimes when I slumber... After making this post I saw the cycle so clearly today in which qualities dropped.
Edited by syncro (10/10/23 01:45 PM)
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spinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] 2
#28506852 - 10/16/23 12:52 PM (3 months, 10 days ago) |
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I do love me some Gospel of Thomas! And on the note of outside and inside (it's just too good to ignore this opportunity to post this ):
Stephen Mitchell; Seung Sahn (1927-2004) - Dropping Ashes on the Buddha: The Teachings of Zen Master Seung Sahn - 5. Inside, Outside;
Quote:
One Thursday evening, after a Dharma talk at the New Haven Zen Center, a student asked Seung Sahn Soen-sa, “It seems that in Christianity God is outside me, whereas in Zen God is inside me, so God and I are one. Is this correct?” Soen-sa said, “Where is inside? Where is outside?” “Inside is in here; outside is out there.” “How can you separate? Where is the boundary line?” “I'm inside my skin, and the world is outside it.” Soen-sa said, “This is your body's skin. Where is your mind's skin?” “Mind has no skin.” “Then where is mind?” “Inside my head.” “Ah, your mind is very small.” (Loud laughter from the audience.) “You must keep your mind big. Then you will understand that God, Buddha, and the whole universe fit into your mind.” Then, holding up his watch, Soen-sa said, “Is this watch outside your mind or inside it?” “Outside.” “If you say ‘outside,’ I will hit you. If you say ‘inside,’ I will still hit you.” “I don't care—I still say it's outside!” “If it is outside, how do you know that this is a watch? Does your mind fly out of your eyes and touch the watch and fly back inside?” “I see the watch. I'm inside, and the watch is outside.” There were a few moments of silence. Soen-sa said, “Don't make inside or outside. Okay?” The student, still looking doubtful, bowed.
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