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Invisiblespinvis
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Registered: 09/15/20
Posts: 587
The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga * 3
    #28440736 - 08/20/23 02:48 PM (5 months, 6 days ago)

Came across this little gem in my recommendations. It's a little series from Swami Tadatmananda (Advaita Vedanta) on the 'Eight Limbs of Yoga' from Patanjali. Which is very similar to 'Kakuan Shion Zenji & Jion Oshō's The Ten Oxherding Pictures' used in Zen Buddhism, and 'Kamalaśīla's The Nine Mental Abidings' used in Tibetan Buddhism.

Here Swami explains and breaks down, in easy to understand modern language, each of Patanjali's Eight Limbs used in Yoga.

Potentially this can clarify and add something to the threads and discussions therein that are active at the moment, with regards to mystical experiences without tryptamines, and how you'd go about it. Swami himself coincidentally is an old school hippy very familiair with tryptamines. :mushroom2:


Quote:

Patanjali's extraordinary eight-step (ashtanga) method of meditation can lead you to the state of samadhi. His ancient teachings become much more accessible with the help of modern psychology and personal insights gained through decades of practice.

For the rishis, the sages of ancient India, the practice of yoga and meditation was a crucial part of a process of spiritual growth that culminates in the realization of your true self, atma, the so-called inner divinity. This personal discovery is commonly called enlightenment, and it results in perfect contentment (ananda) and inner peace (shanti) that never fades away.

More than 1500 years ago, the great rishi Patanjali composed his famous Yoga Sutras, a Sanskrit text considered the source scripture and foundation for the practice of yogic meditation. Patanjali's text consists of just 196 sutras that describe an exceptionally powerful system of meditation.

The Yoga Sutras are highly analytical in nature. Detailed study can be extremely helpful for meditation teachers, but fortunately, it's not essential for practitioners. On the other hand, practitioners can benefit tremendously from the many brilliant insights found in the sutras, especially Patanjali's division of yogic practice into eight individual steps, eight angas or limbs.




Psychology of Samadhi – Based on Patanjali's Yoga Sutras & 45 Years Personal Practice
https://youtu.be/UOb2qwDyKfA

Patanjali's Eightfold Path to Samadhi – The Psychology of Samadhi: 2
https://youtu.be/6f4Mk0QHalY

Ekagrata — One-Pointed Concentration — The Psychology of Samadhi: 3
https://youtu.be/ukA18eldRto

Transcending the Mind, Abiding in Pure Awareness – The Psychology of Samadhi: 4
https://youtu.be/bSQrlf4AKVs


Quote:

History of Yoga, the Path of my Ancestors is a 6000 year journey into origin, evolution & development of yoga. The story explores the elements of Yoga in Harappa Civilization, Veda, Jainism, Buddhism, Sufism, Hath-Yogic practices of medieval times & other peripheral doctrines. The film ends in 19th century where modern science acknowledges the potential of yoga in a new light.



History of Yoga
https://youtu.be/JoRwXMLsVis

:rocket::heart:


Edited by spinvis (10/09/23 12:43 PM)


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro]
    #28441220 - 08/21/23 01:41 AM (5 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
I like the improvement of production, with the music in between, and the images, also the enrichment in the terminology.






Very true! Compared to his older videos the production quality certainly improved!

He describes he had to go to a Yogi that explained and broke it down for him, because even with his broad knowledge of Advaita Vedanta he couldn't fully understand the Sutras of Patanjali. Which just shows how cryptic some of these instructions can be, if approached without somebody that is knowledgeable in them next to you.

What was most funny was the point were he was concentrating so hard on the point between his eyebrows that it kept resulting in a headache because his eyes kept looking at it :lol:


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #28441486 - 08/21/23 09:15 AM (5 months, 5 days ago)

Not really, only natural and healthy. In this context, he meditated over two hours and he thought he took hold of his anger and was able to suppress it. As soon as he saw the same person again, the anger was back, only because his first reaction was to try and bypass his own true self and natural response. After he talked with the person about it, and voiced his anger, only then it subsided naturally.

Fleeing into spirituality can be a natural first response for some and it can offer a safe haven, but it won't solve the underlying issue, in this case his anger towards a person. Only by confronting your demons you'll master them.


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28441525 - 08/21/23 10:03 AM (5 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
I think these are with the tendencies and abilities of the student, and I contrast that with some teachings that will say, all of these preliminaries, and including samadhi, are contained in that one mantra, for example, Om Namah Shivaya.

. . .

It is not judging one way over the other, but in however one can. Even if one believes their own devotion is sufficient, they can still benefit greatly with the hatha yoga, pranayam, etc.
I still think that the best student will take something like Patanjali's agamas, or the Eightfold path, etc., and follow them as thoroughly as possible. We misfits can grab a gem here and there are stoke our fires.




It's something that either becomes a part of your lifestyle, or not. Like master Yoda says: 'No! Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try.'

Within Zen we say, as soon as you mention 'I think', you'd missed the point and whatever follows is wrong either way.

I agree with practicing different directions within spirituality. Spread your wings, and taste as much as possible. They all have their own practices, from different active meditations, silent meditations, breathing techniques, inquiries, philosophies etc etc.

I've tasted, and been tasting Chan, Zen, Shaiva Tantra, Sufism, Vajrayana Tantra, a little bit of Neo Tantra, Esoterica, Yoga, Gnosticism. And it's all around here where I'm currently staying, I do not have to travel the world. So there's no excuse, for me at least, not to do it. Although I'd love to visit Nepal and India one day! One can only dream!


Edited by spinvis (08/21/23 10:05 AM)


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28441575 - 08/21/23 10:42 AM (5 months, 5 days ago)

I've seen, and heard of people go totally bonkers that for example do long meditation retreats, without first confronting and dealing with their demons before starting. Yes, it is possible, and everybody follows their own path. But those people needed to go into therapy afterwards to confront their demons before being able to move on.

You can compare it to finding a deserted island, serene and beautiful, but every hour or so a terrible monster keeps showing it's ugly face, just to scare you shitless.


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro]
    #28442369 - 08/22/23 03:31 AM (5 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
Agreed. I can lose my ground doing sadhana and have to stop, or think I have to stop.

Therapy is good, the showing up and speaking in that way.




Curious to hear more about that! I also remember you mentioning something about your spiritual direction in another thread a while back. Which direction are you practicing at the moment?


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro]
    #28442697 - 08/22/23 10:54 AM (5 months, 4 days ago)

First of, thanks for sharing! :heart:

Parts sound awfully familiar to some personal experiences, and experiences from friends/family/acquaintances. Not sure where you're at now in terms of headspace and recovery, but don't give up!

Have you read 'The Tibetan Book of the Dead' and 'The Tibetan Book of the Living and Dying' with regards to your research into materials of the afterlife?

Love mantra singing, I still need to visit one of the kirtans here, only heard and saw recordings so far. It's absolutely amazing and soothing!

I wonder how much different the tantra practices you're doing compared to Shaiva tantra and Vajrayana tantra.


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28443891 - 08/23/23 01:44 PM (5 months, 3 days ago)

That sounds awesome and very similar indeed. Love the fact you guys play your own instruments and sing, must be amazing, haven't experienced that here yet since they usually use a playlist from Spotify.

The sessions here usually consist of dancing, followed with either silent or active meditations, followed by inquires/sharings, then either breathing exercises or intimate "sense exercises" alone or with a person or persons (depending on the practice), in between or after the philosophy behind it is explained in detail.

As you know it can be very intense! I remember the first time I was so surprised a couple of simple exercises could have that same euphoric effect and feeling of tryptamines and open me up so completely.

I'll post some more quotes in the future in the usual place with regards to Shaiva tantra and Vajrayana tantra. Should be interesting.

What are the primary writings of Mahapurusha yoga? Is there any reading material online?

Glad to read you connected some of your dots and samskara, those bloody Buddhists definitions :lol:

That gave me a good chuckle reading those posts and its progress/process!


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: WhoManBeing]
    #28443920 - 08/23/23 02:06 PM (5 months, 3 days ago)

A lot of people relate meditating to sitting in a certain posture. While that is probably the most popular, it's absolutely not a requirement for meditation.

There's loads of other different meditation techniques, from walking, dancing, singing, lying down, visualization, prayer, yoga, breathe, movement, the list goes on.

Basically anything can be made into a meditation exercise, from sports, work, walking, etc. Simplest would be to be aware of your senses including your thoughts and surroundings. Focus on the tip of your nose, or the spot between your eyes. If your senses/thoughts drift off and you become aware of that, just shift your attention back to the spot. You can also count your out breaths, which we use in Zen a lot with newcomers. Find out what you're most comfortable with, and go with that, you can always combine techniques, or switch them up.

A tryptamine like buzz you're describing with body tingling can be easily replicated with breathing techniques.


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28446328 - 08/25/23 11:35 AM (5 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
I don't like talking about the shadow and such but there have been some synchronicities or connections. I was considering how to say what is the shadow experience, since writing about it I thought, I don't even know what it is, a fading memory in the grosser aspects.

Then I thought of it being a story which connected to the attention in the other thread to Samskara, which in the second meaning also had it as a story, and rite of passage.

So it came together also seen as a part of ascension within, the shadow is a story and a rite of passage in ascension, and fit very well with a big whopping Samskara.

I also associated it with the three corpses in Daoism which I have thought correlate well with the psychic knots, granthis.




Rereading this, your post reminded me of
Carl Jung - Psychology and Religion: West and East. P. 131;
Quote:

Everyone carries a shadow…and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is.




It's good to embrace and explore your shadow, since it's part of you and the whole.

Robert Augustus Masters;
Quote:

There are negative things that we do with our emotions, but our emotions themselves are neither negative nor positive. They simply are.




:heart:


Edited by spinvis (08/25/23 12:22 PM)


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28446361 - 08/25/23 12:21 PM (5 months, 1 day ago)

By exploring your shadow in a healthy manner, get to know it fully, so you can embrace it, instead of trying to push it away, trying to resist and ignore it, since it will keep rearing it's ugly head.

Was coincidentally reading this the other day, which fits. He has written some books specifically on this subject such as 'Bringing Your Shadow Out of the Dark: Breaking Free from the Hidden Forces That Drive You'

Robert Augustus Masters;
Quote:

To transcend something is to go beyond it to the point of ceasing to identify with it, so that it becomes an object of our awareness. When this process is healthy, what’s been transcended is not excluded from our being (any more than clouds are excluded from the sky) but rather is “repositioned” and related to in ways that serve our well-being. When transcendence is unhealthy, what has been transcended is excluded from our being, resulting in escapism and disconnection. Where healthy transcendence embraces what’s been transcended, unhealthy transcendence avoids it, making a spiritual virtue out of rising above whatever is deemed “lower” or “darker” elements of our nature. This is dissociation disguised in holy drag.




Edited by spinvis (08/25/23 01:16 PM)


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28460409 - 09/06/23 09:31 AM (4 months, 20 days ago)

You really took your time and went deep into it, that's awesome too see and read! Remember that they are pointing at something that's always present, beyond the concepts, teachers and the teachings. Like for example in Shaiva Tantra, Shiva is the underlying reality, always present, awareness at rest, while Shakti is the illusionary dance that's actively happening that you're a part of. Since that example is dualistic in nature, the non-dual view is that all is Shiva. Practice in Tantra is to awaken the awareness that's at rest, Shiva, in yourself, to forget about it afterwards, and serve the rest of creation through action. The same principle can be said about Sankara and his teachings:

Ātmabodha – The Fruits of Self-Knowledge – Verse 46;
Quote:

Enlightened yogis see
the entire world in themselves
and see everything as non-separate from atma,
with the eye of knowledge.


Commentary by Swami Tadatmananda: Those who are enlightened experience duality like everyone else. But, they aren't misled by their experiences, they know the underlying reality because of which everything exists to be non-dual Brahman. Like clay is the underlying reality because of which many pots exists.



Also if it would be something that's attained, it can be lost again, and this would mean that it's something that's apart and seperate from you. This ain't the case, it's always present, you're a part of it, have been and always will be, but most are unaware of it.

Chogyam Trungpa;
Quote:

Enlightenment is permanent because we have not produced it; we have merely discovered it.



The eight limbs, ten ox herding pictures, and the nine mental abiding, like the practices in Shaiva Tantra, are a gradual approach in steps, each step making you aware of what's beyond yourself, the teacher, the words and concepts.

There's generally considered to be two different teachers/teachings/students, the gradual and the sudden/immediate. But they both have the same outcome.

Also to quell (To put down forcibly; suppress. To pacify; quiet.) would be a rather violent way of going about it and not advisable. It's yourself you're talking about, so let everything flow freely like it's supposed to, and by means of acceptance, compassion, going through it, and it comes to rest by itself eventually.

Hui-Neng;
Quote:

When our mind works freely without any hindrance, and is at liberty to 'come' or to 'go', we attain Samadhi of Prajna, or liberation. Such a state is called the function of 'thoughtlessness'. But to refrain from thinking of anything, so that all thoughts are suppressed, is to be Dharma-ridden, and this is an erroneous view.



So in general, it is clear that it's very difficult for most to move beyond the words and concepts. Some might have a grasp of it what this all might mean intellectually, but they'll focus for example on what they personally experience with the senses in a fleeting moment, but as soon as they start to describe their sensual experience, the moment is already gone and it's changed forever, since it's forever flowing and transforming, so they'll keep your attention pinned on them with beautiful words to tickle the ears, which instead should be on yourself, your actions and practices.

Amongst White Clouds - Unnamed Chinese Hermit;
Quote:

ten thousand things
all in this breath
grasping hold of emptiness
there’s really nothing to say.



Ah well, don't take my rambling for it, I'm just stringing concepts together, become the practice and teachings yourself instead.

Matsuo Basho - Collected Works of Basho and the Haikuists - Haiku by Matsuo Basho;
Quote:

an old pond
a frog jumps into
the sound of water



:jumpingfrog:


Edited by spinvis (09/08/23 01:54 PM)


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28465045 - 09/11/23 05:10 AM (4 months, 15 days ago)

I enjoyed reading that, and I see where you are going with it, so let's explore it further, with a different kind of idea if you will. :tongue2:

First off, I'm not seeing a question here, more of an idea on other ideas. Then why don't we ask ourselves what's an idea and where does it come from? An idea is and comes from the accumulated personal knowledge of an individual. And where does that knowledge come from? From our personal past, which is a result of our personal conditioning and indoctrination that we've received during our lives, based on our personal environment.

Since that's the case, we can already see that statements being made (wether it's the dwarf lady with the beard, Buddha, suchness, the tathata, Shiva, etc etc) are false in the sense that what it tries to grasp with words is completely biased towards a certain individuals past, and their conditioning and indoctrination.

I'm skipping letting go and the mind (for now) and come to the witness, witnessing means there's an observer. But what is the observer? It's also the exact same past, the accumulated personal knowledge of an individual.

So then what? Can you actually look without the observer? Without any ideas? Without any concepts? Without any of the past interfering whatsoever?

Yes, you can! But not by concentrating, effort, manipulation, or control. (I'm not saying that these practices aren't filling a purpose for beginners, or certain people with anxiety for example, breath control can be very helpful. Learning to focus for others. Creating awareness for some others. Etc.)

But once you see through this and what it actually all is, that it are just more ideas that somebody created, we're going somewhere!


So for the following to wrap it up I'll use a couple of ideas and concepts originating from Buddhism, haha the irony :lol:! It encapsulates all this.

In Buddhist philosophy there's something called the three marks of existence, namely aniccā (impermanence), dukkha (commonly translated as "suffering", "unsatisfactory," "unease"), and anattā (without a lasting essence).

It seems like they're three separate things, but they're actually not. The three marks of existence are also related to the five aggregates, and all are related to the non-self. (Don't mistake the non-self for a nihilistic idea or concept, this is not what's meant!)

Let's look closer in this example at anattā, in combination with thoughts. There are certain thoughts that pop up and stick (meaning they'll trigger something in you, the observer, that you don't agree with, following in judgement, control, manipulation, concentration, and therefore they have a lasting essence, consuming a huge amount of effort) to you, and there are certain thoughts that don't stick and they'll just move on (without any effort, without a lasting essence). Now, why do certain thoughts stick and others don't? Why, if you for example feel pain, if you exert effort to try and fight, manipulate, control it, it gets worse and worse and worse, but if you actually "go into" the pain, completely accept it and let it be, it becomes much more manageable?

The same principle can be applied to for example 'the quotes that gets you going like, oh yeah, put 'em up!' (I enjoy putting up paradoxical and going against the status quo quotes, since they point at something that otherwise is overlooked :lol:.)

So finally we come back to letting go, letting go can only come about by complete and full acceptance of what is, if there's no acceptance, nothing will be let go. If nothing is let go, it'll consume huge amounts of effort, control, concentration, and manipulation to maintain.


So yeah, paradoxes are fun stuff to explore! But don't take it from me, discover yourself!

I largely skipped the concept/idea of the mind on purpose, since that can be a whole thread on its own, rightfully so.

And since you get going on quotes:
:lol:
Zen Master Dae-Ju;
Quote:

One day, a Sutra Master came and he questioned Zen Master Dae-Ju. “I understand that you have attained Satori. What is Zen?'”

Dae-Ju said, “Zen is very easy. It is not difficult at all. When I am hungry, I eat; when I am tired, I sleep.”

The Sutra Master said, “This is doing the same as all people do. Attaining satori [Zen enlightenment] and not attaining are then the same.”

“No, no, people on the outside and on the inside are different.'”

The Sutra Master said, “When I am hungry, I eat. When I am tired, I sleep. Why is the outside different from the inside?”

Dae-Ju said, “When people are hungry, they eat. Only the outside, the body, is eating. On the inside, they are thinking, and they have desire for money, fame, sex, food, and they feel anger. And so when they are tired, because of these wants, they do not sleep. So, the outside and the inside are different. But when I am hungry, I only eat. When I am tired, I only sleep. I have no thinking, and so I have no inside and no outside.”


:heart::jumpingfrog:


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28468548 - 09/14/23 07:05 AM (4 months, 12 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
"3.3 When only the essence of that object, place, or point shines forth in the mind, as if devoid even of its own form, that state of deep absorption is called deep concentration or samadhi, which is the eighth rung."

Yoga Sutras

alambana be one with that stuff

:no::yes::awesomenod::rockon:






Quote:

syncro said:
Too long since looking at these.

Quote:

Samyama is the finer tool (Yoga Sutras 3.4-3.6)

3.4 The three processes of dharana, dhyana, and samadhi, when taken together on the same object, place or point is called samyama.

3.5 Through the mastery of that three-part process of samyama, the light of knowledge, transcendental insight, or higher consciousness (prajna) dawns, illumines, flashes, or is visible.

3.6 That three-part process of samyama is gradually applied to the finer planes, states, or stages of practice.



:notsureif: The last one bugs me.



Here is a different translation from the Yoga Sutras chapter 3 (made by I. K. Taimni and Iqbal Kishen), which might help to show it in a different angle/light, but also that what it describes are one of the gradual steps or stages within the Yoga practice used for realization.
Quote:

1. Concentration is the confining of the mind within a limited mental area (object of concentration).

2. Uninterrupted flow (of the mind) towards the object (chosen for meditation) is contemplation.

3. The same (contemplation) when there is consciousness only of the object of meditation and not of itself (the mind) is Samādhi.

4. The three taken together constitute Saṃyama.

5. By mastering it (Saṃyama) the light of the higher consciousness.

6. Its (of Saṃyama) use by stages.



Anyway, let me qoute from an often overlooked and mostly unknown (weirdly enough) Gita with regards to meditation/concentration/any action, including its commentary. It's a single verse taken from 'The Ashtavakra Gita', one of the clearest Hindu/Vedanta texts on non-duality in my opinion.

Ramesh S. Balsekar - A Duet of One: The Ashtavakra Gita Dialogue;
Quote:

“You are unattached, actionless, self-effulgent, without blemish. This indeed is your bondage, that you practice meditation.” (15)

Commentary: When Ashtavakra says in verse 15 that practicing meditation is the very bondage from which liberation is sought, the meaning is clear that such meditation presupposes the deliberate action of the ego as the meditator, practicing meditation, with the specific intention of realizing something. And whatever the ego does is creating further cords of bondage. The point is simple. The basic Truth is that the true nature of all sentient beings is pure Consciousness [Awareness] which is the substance of all phenomenal appearances. If this is accepted—and it must be—then anyone wanting to “do” something, in order to “become” enlightened, is surely turning his back on the basic Truth. Any positive action in order to become enlightened presupposes the existence of an individual entity whereas “enlightenment” is itself the state in which no separate individual can exist. It is for this reason that Ashtavakra calls the “practicing of meditation” the very bondage from which liberation is sought. In other words, it is only non-volitional motiveless functioning that can lead to the awakening to enlightenment. Any sort of intentional action by way of discipline or practice would necessarily be an insurmountable obstacle to such awakening.



:jumpingfrog:


Edited by spinvis (09/14/23 07:06 AM)


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Invisiblespinvis
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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] * 2
    #28469745 - 09/15/23 08:39 AM (4 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
Would Tadatmananda agree? Those fellers can't just wipe out purification, concentration, etc, it so broad throughout, as if us living here couldn't use them. I get it though, presence is presence.

And practice is not so much about doing something to be enlightened, but to refine the system.

And it's not so much doing it for realization, but because we already have realizations, in absorbed states, enjoyment. Sadhana can be most purifying on all levels like nothing other I know of.



It doesn't say to wipe out the various practices, just that once you have seen through the bucket of water, instead of encountering a reflection of the water like you normally would, there's not even a bottom anymore to hold the water. Also, consider what Buster wrote, I think therefore I am, is in the same vein as, as long as you think and believe you need refining, or purifying on some level, you will. Not to say that this is a bad thing, or a good thing, it just is, in the same way that a knife doesn't cut itself, and a light doesn’t need to shine on itself. Or that it stops there, while it's just the beginning. That's why, in for example Tantric practices, it's important to really know, and believe, that you are already complete, refined, purified, exactly the way you are now, with all the shortcomings you might think or believe you have. The same message is written in these verses from 'The Ashtavakra Gita'.
Quote:

“Dear child, long have you been caught in the bonds of identification with the body. Sever it with the sword of Knowledge, and be happy.” (14)
“You are unattached, actionless, self-effulgent, without blemish. This indeed is your bondage, that you practice meditation.” (15)
“It is you who pervade this universe, and this universe exists in you. You are truly pure Consciousness by nature. Be not petty-minded.” (16)
“Abide in that Consciousness which you are—unconditioned, immutable, formless, serene and imperturbable, of unfathomable intelligence.” (17)




And if you struggle with that, whatever the reason, for example a certain thought pattern and belief from your past is interfering, you are encouraged in Tantric practices to look at why that is, what is causing that belief in you. And to work through this with various practices, through those deeply seated and rooted ideas, to accept them for what they were, that they served their purpose at a certain time, and that you're completely okay regardless. And this can be very dark and difficult to do.
Also knowing Ramesh S. Balsekar was the student of Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, and contemporaries of Ramana Maharshi and Wei Wu Wei amongst others, and the text an important piece of Hindu/Advaita Vedanta practices, I don't doubt Swami Tadatmananda knows about it and agrees with its meaning.
But to show it from a different angle, below is the commentary on this verse from Swami Chinmayananda. Emphasis mine.
Quote:

निःसङ्गो निष्क्रियोऽसि त्वं स्वप्रकाशो निरञ्जनः।
अयमेव हि ते बन्धः समाधिमनुतिष्ठसि॥१५॥

niḥsaṅgo niṣkriyo'si tvaṁ svaprakāśo nirañjanaḥ,
ayam-eva hi te bandhaḥ samādhim-anutiṣṭhasi. (15)

निःसङ्गः – unattached; निष्क्रियः – actionless; असि – are; त्वम् – you; स्वप्रकाशः – self-effulgent; निरञ्जनः – without taints, (stainless); अयम् – this; एव – indeed; हि – surely; ते – your; बन्धः – bondage; समाधिम् – meditation; अनुतिष्ठसि – practice

15. You are unattached, actionless, self-effulgent and without any taints. ‘You practise meditation,’ and this indeed is your bondage.


As the Self, you are unattached with your body-mind equipments and with their perceived objects or entertained thoughts. The post is unattached with every part of the ghost. It is the limited, the finite alone that can act; the Self, being all-pervading and infinite, is ever ‘actionless’ (niṣkriyaḥ). Where will the all-pervading act, as It has no field other than Itself to act. In Its supreme Perfection It can desire nothing, and without a desire how can action ever spring forth? As Consciousness, the Self is ‘self-effulgent’ (sva-prakāśaḥ) and this light of Consciousness is never dimmed as It is ‘without any taints’ (nirañjanaḥ). Beyond vāsanās, illumining them, revels the pure seat of Consciousness, the Self and as such It is stainless. The Consciousness in us illumines for us our gross, subtle and causal bodies.

The Self is ever free; therefore, It needs no meditation. So long as we are meditating, there are still traces of the ego in us, which alone can aspire for the Selfhood and practise meditation. One who is trying to sleep, so long as he is trying, he is not asleep. Once having reached sleep, the sleeper is no more trying to sleep. It is only the waker who can try to gain his sleep state. In the same way, so long as an individual is meditating, he has not apprehended the state of pure Consciousness.

Rare indeed are the seers of the calibre of Aṣṭāvakra, who has the audacity to declare, so openly, that to meditate upon the ever free and the ever liberated supreme Reality is itself a symptom of the meditator's state of bondage. The limited alone will strive to reach the unlimited; the bound and the shackled alone need struggle to attain Liberation.

To a sincere student of meditation, this verse has a precious secret suggestion. When all other thoughts have subsided, the mind and, therefore, the ego survives itself with the subtle vanity, ‘I am meditating’. Even this idea must be finally given up. So long as one maintains the awareness that ‘I am trying to sleep’, he cannot enter the state of sleep. ‘I meditate’ is perhaps the last lingering thought in almost all the seekers in higher meditation. The moment even this vanity is given up, ‘the ego completely disappears into the vision of the Reality’. In short, in the supreme silence of meditation, a seeker should give up even the idea of ‘doership’ experienced within him, as ‘I am meditating’. This seems to be the mystic import of this direct advice.

In Yogavāsiṣṭha also we read verses indicating the same import.

So too the awareness 'I am the Self’ is never broken in the man of samādhi. How can then he meditate? Upon what? And why should he?

Vasiṣṭha concludes in wonderment.




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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28469934 - 09/15/23 11:55 AM (4 months, 11 days ago)

It's the judgement of the person that makes it right or wrong, and that says something about the person. There are also spiritual practices, and religions who will openly declare their way is the only way that's correct, forgetting the time period, region, and contexts it was written in, and that says something about the persons declaring that. That is the attachment some people have towards it, while the practice is to let go of all these attachments.

However, these ancient spiritual teachings are equally valid, they're not right or wrong, since they're all pointing towards the moon. And they're all trying to help the student in their own ways.

Robert F. Olson; Jianzhi Sengcan - The Mind of Absolute Trust;
Quote:

The Great Way isn’t difficult
for those who are unattached to their preferences.
Let go of longing and aversion,
and everything will be perfectly clear.
When you cling to a hairbreadth of distinction,
heaven and earth are set apart.
If you want to realize the truth,
don’t be for or against.
The struggle between good and evil
is the primal disease of the mind.
Not grasping the deeper meaning,
you just trouble your mind’s serenity.
As vast as infinite space,
it is perfect and lacks nothing.
But because you select and reject,
you can’t perceive its true nature.
Don’t get entangled in the world;
don’t lose yourself in emptiness.
Be at peace in the oneness of things,
and all errors will disappear by themselves.



Meditation is one of the practice "tools" to help you realize, once that's done, there's really no need anymore for the tool. Like medicine, once you're healed, you've got no need medicine anymore, since you're whole.

Gautama Buddha - The Alagaddūpama Sutta - Middle Discourses 22 - The Simile of the Snake;
Quote:

“Monks, I will show you how the Dharma is comparable to a raft, that is for crossing over [the waters for the far shore], not for the purpose of grasping. Listen and pay close attention, I will speak.” “Yes, venerable sir,” the monks replied.
The Blessed One said this:
“Monks, suppose a man in the course of his journey saw a great stretch of water, whose near shore is dangerous and fearful and whose far shore is safe and free from fear, but there is no ferry or bridge for going across to the far shore.
Then he thinks: ‘There is this great stretch of water, whose near shore is dangerous and fearful and whose far shore is safe and free from fear, but there is no ferry or bridge for going across to the far shore.
Suppose I collect grass, wood, branches and leaves, and bind them together into a raft, and supported by the raft and using my hands and feet, I go safely across to the far shore.’
And then the man collects grass, wood, branches and leaves, and binds them together into a raft, and supported by the raft and using his hands and feet, goes safely across to the far shore.
Then when he has gone across and arrived on the far shore, he might think thus:
‘This raft has been very helpful to me, since supported by it and using my hands and feet, I went safely across to the far shore. Suppose I were to hoist it on my head or bear it on my shoulder, and then go wherever I want.’
Now, monks, what do you think? By doing so, would that man be doing what should be done with the raft?”
“No, venerable sir.”
“By doing what would that man be doing what should be done with the raft? Here, monks,
when that man has gone across and arrived on the far shore, he might think thus:
‘This raft has been very helpful to me, since supported by it and using my hands and feet, I went safely across to the far shore. Suppose I were to haul it onto dry land or set it adrift in the water, and then go wherever I wish.’
Now, monks, it is by so doing that that man is doing what should be done with that raft.
So I have shown you that the Dharma is comparable to a raft, which is for crossing over [the waters to the far shore], not for the purpose of grasping.
Monks, having known the parable of the raft, you should abandon even the Teaching, how much more that which is not the Teaching!"




Edited by spinvis (09/15/23 12:01 PM)


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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28471895 - 09/17/23 05:25 AM (4 months, 9 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
If assimilation is akin to digestion, then say, after a practice of mantra etc, it is said meditation itself is the digestion of the meal.

In The Assimilation of Experience by James Swartz, just scanning, I noticed he related assimilation to awareness of the three qualities, tamas, rajas, sattva, the latter being closest to realization, the natures of peace, goodness, purity, helpfulness, the sublime.

They say again and again, bring sattva. I speak about it and it comes, but I'm not very good at its maintenance.

Rajas is activity, always seeking the next thing, or seeking to ever increase, continue something without insight and sattva.



Yes, that's a great description! Within Zen we for example sing 'The Heart Sutra', or 'The Gate of Sweet Nectar' before sitting meditation.

The Heart Sutra;
Quote:

Avalokiteshvara
while practicing deeply with
the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore,
suddenly discovered that
all of the five Skandhas are equally empty,
and with this realisation
he overcame all Ill-being.

“Listen Sariputra,
this Body itself is Emptiness
and Emptiness itself is this Body.
This Body is not other than Emptiness
and Emptiness is not other than this Body.
The same is true of Feelings,
Perceptions, Mental Formations,
and Consciousness.

“Listen Sariputra,
all phenomena bear the mark of Emptiness;
their true nature is the nature of
no Birth no Death,
no Being no Non-being,
no Defilement no Purity,
no Increasing no Decreasing.

“That is why in Emptiness,
Body, Feelings, Perceptions,
Mental Formations and Consciousness
are not separate self entities.

The Eighteen Realms of Phenomena
which are the six Sense Organs,
the six Sense Objects,
and the six Consciousnesses
are also not separate self entities.

The Twelve Links of Interdependent Arising
and their Extinction
are also not separate self entities.
Ill-being, the Causes of Ill-being,
the End of Ill-being, the Path,
insight and attainment,
are also not separate self entities.

Whoever can see this
no longer needs anything to attain.

Bodhisattvas who practice
the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore
see no more obstacles in their mind,
and because there
are no more obstacles in their mind,
they can overcome all fear,
destroy all wrong perceptions
and realize Perfect Nirvana.

“All Buddhas in the past, present and future
by practicing
the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore
are all capable of attaining
Authentic and Perfect Enlightenment.

“Therefore Sariputra,
it should be known that
the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore
is a Great Mantra,
the most illuminating mantra,
the highest mantra,
a mantra beyond compare,
the True Wisdom that has the power
to put an end to all kinds of suffering.
Therefore let us proclaim
a mantra to praise
the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore.

Gate, Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bodhi Svaha!
Gate, Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bodhi Svaha!
Gate, Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bodhi Svaha!




However, for example within Kashmir Shaivism (Tantra) it is written;
commentary on chapter 5 of the Svacchanda-tantra, by Rājānaka Kṣemarāja;
Quote:

Just as manipulative mantras can bring a heavenly beauty under the control of an ugly man without getting rid of his ugliness, similarly the liberating mantras undo the power of the three bonds, but they do not necessarily quell attachment, aversion, and their products.



According to Tantric teachings, it's only possible by receiving initiation from your Guru. Also it depends on the person wether he will need one session with the Guru, or needs multiple, like you've written as well.

Within Buddhism it emphasize the embodying of compassion towards all life by doing and becoming the teachings. This actually is also an important part of Tantra.
Quote:

syncro said:
Whoa, he's going after Gangaji and them in neo-Advaita.

That hits so well, the need for assimilation after instantaneous self-realization. The arguments have been over whether we will get such insights, but they are evident in us. Yet problems remain involving assimilation.

He goes, preparation is a long process, realization is an instantaneous process, then assimilation is another long process, potentially, yet, and he says similar, is it is the wonderful lila, as we can always return to the previous insights.

Thorough preparation is best, but I think, suppose one only does meditation/enquiry without other forms of preparation. If they are consistent, it's not as if purifications and bodily insights and necessary strength, etc., will not develop. What matters is their success in practice. As we do one thing, all else can fall into place.

Suppose you only have five minutes to see a teacher and they know it. They are going to give you core essence and send you on your way. In that sense, preliminaries can be a follow up, and their elements can happen spontaneously.



Not sure who's Gangaji, or neo-Advaita, but that sounds deserved.

Assimilation is indeed the longest one of the bunch. These can vary from changes in your diet, social circles, work, lifestyle, etc etc... To volunteering for example at different non profits to assist inmates, assisted dying, suicide prevention, etc...

Thus by being in close contact with life, and doing the actual work, you'll get to embody the teachings, beyond the Sangha. This is also the last important step within the Ten Ox-Herding pictures: 'X. Entering the Marketplace with Extended Hands'


Edited by spinvis (09/17/23 05:32 AM)


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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28473354 - 09/18/23 06:04 AM (4 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
Gangaji is/was a disciple of Ramana through Papaji. So Tadatmananda is talking about Ramana, who was very unique in needing no practice. Actually as a boy he sat in some lower nook of a temple for years establishing his vision, but had no teacher physically on earth that we know of. Some say his was Shiva in the subtle.

Anyways the criticism is that the Ramana kind of Advaita, and those of Papaji and Gangaji, and I don't want to assume for them too much, but it pays no heed to formal preliminairies, preparations, but just essentially be in the I AM.

As Tadatmananda may be correct in perspective, people are not like Ramana that didn't need instruction and practice in preparation. I'm in his camp in that the sadhanas are crucial gifts to the world. At the same time, no-practice, I AM, is sadhana, imo, and purification occurs nevertheless.



Thanks for the background info. I finally watched the video and have to agree with Ramana. But I feel like this is more of an issue of personal opinion in my view, and that it says something about the person or people promoting this way is the only correct way. Authority is something that prevents further learning, and doesn't contain the freedom needed.
Quote:

If anyone tells you fire is light,
Pay no attention.
When two thieves meet they need no introduction:
They recognize each other without question.



There are plenty of sudden paths that promote instant awakening over years of preparation and practices. Besides everybody walks his own path and there's not really a fixed way of progression, or starting point (this has been pointed towards in a lot of teachings). People have awakened because of a variety of reasons, not only through spiritual practices, preliminaries and preparing. And there's really no shortcut since you're walking the path of life, it can't be forced in any way, and will happen wether you've done preparation or not. When it does it will definitely shift the consciousness of the person, that's why it's also written, if the mind has shifted, the body will follow. However in terms of, this would be handy knowledge and practice for the person (beforehand), I agree with that sadhanas are crucial gifts, and every school should have a teacher that points to the moon. And I also agree with that there are a lot of fake gurus with empty promises.

The sudden path explained in Zen:
Hui Hai - The Zen teaching of Hui Hai on sudden illumination;
Quote:

Q: What method must we practise in order to attain deliverance?
A: It can be attained only through a sudden Illumination.
Q: What is a sudden Illumination?
A: Sudden means ridding yourselves of deluded thoughts instantaneously. Illumination means the realization that Illumination is not something to be attained.
Q: From where do we start this practice?
A: You must start from the very root.
Q: And what is that?
A: Mind is the root.
Q: How can this be known?
A: The Lankavatara Sutra says: ‘When mental processes (hsin) arise, then do all dharmas (phenomena) spring forth; and when mental processes cease, then do all dharmas cease likewise.’ The Vimalakirti Sutra says: “Those desiring to attain the Pure Land must first purify their own minds, for the purification of mind is the purity of the Buddha-Land.’ The Sutra of the Doctrine Bequeathed by the Buddha says: ‘Just by mind-control, all things become possible to us.’ In another sutra it says: ‘Sages seek from mind, not from the Buddha; fools seek from the Buddha instead of seeking from mind. Wise men regulate their minds rather than their persons; fools regulate their persons rather than their minds.’ The Sutra of the Names of the Buddha states: ‘Evil springs forth from the mind, and by the mind is evil overcome.’ Thus we may know that all good and evil proceed from our minds and that mind is therefore the root. If you desire deliverance, you must first know all about the root. Unless you can penetrate to this truth, all your efforts will be vain; for, while you are still seeking something from forms external to yourselves, you will never attain. The Dhyanaparamita Sutra says: ‘For as long as you direct your search to the forms around you, you will not attain your goal even after aeon upon aeon; whereas, by contemplating your inner awareness, you can achieve  Buddhahood in a single flash of thought.’
Q: By what means is the root-practice to be performed? 
A: Only by sitting in meditation, for it is accomplished  by dhyana (ch‘an) and samadhi (ting). The Dhyana-paramita Sutra says: ‘Dhyana and samadhi are essential to, the search for the sacred knowledge of the Buddhas; for, without these, the thoughts remain in tumult and the roots of goodness suffer damage.’
Q: Please describe dhyana and samadhi.
A: When wrong thinking ceases, that is dhyana; when you sit contemplating your original nature, that is samadhi, for indeed that original nature is your eternal mind. By samadhi, you withdraw your minds from their surroundings, thereby making them impervious to the eight winds, that is to say, impervious to gain and loss, calumny and eulogy, praise and blame, sorrow and joy. By concentrating in this way, even ordinary people may enter the state of Buddhahood. How can that be so? The Sutra of the Bodhisattva-Precepts says: “All beings who observe the Buddha-Precept thereby enter Buddhahood.’ Other names for this are deliverance, gaining the further shore, transcending the six states of mortal being,’ o’erleaping the three worlds, or becoming a mighty Bodhisattva, an omnipotent Sage, a Conqueror!
Q: Whereon should the mind settle and dwell? 
A: It should settle upon non-dwelling and there dwell. 
Q: What is this non-dwelling? 
A: It means not allowing the mind to dwell upon anything whatsoever. 
Q: And what is the meaning of that? 
A: Dwelling upon nothing means that the mind is not  fixed upon good or evil, being or non-being, inside or outside or somewhere between the two, void or non-void, concentration or distraction. This dwelling upon nothing is the state in which it should dwell; those who attain to it are said to have non-dwelling minds—in other words, they have  Buddha-Minds!



Can't get anymore direct than this:

Bhagavad Gita;
Quote:

I am the goal, the root, the witness,
home and refuge, dearest friend,
creation and annihilation,
everlasting seed and treasure.
. . .
All your thoughts, all your actions,
all your fears and disappointments,
offer them to me, clear-hearted;
know them all as passing visions.



Well, maybe this:

Isaiah 45:7;
Quote:

I am he that prepared light, and formed darkness; who make peace, and create evil; I am the Lord God, that does all these things.




Quote:

syncro said:Do you have a clickable source of this? I wonder where would attachment and aversion be but in the power of the three bonds? Do the three bonds mean the granthis, psychic knots, or something else?



That was an excerpt from the book 'Tantra Illuminated: The Philosophy, History, and Practice of a Timeless Tradition', that's solely on the history and path of Kashmir Shaivism, it continues to say for that, further spiritual practices are necessary, and that it has been observed that with the initiation it results in quelling of attachments and aversions, and sums it up in;
Quote:

Therefore, purification of the self—destroying the bonds of āṇava and so on and bestowing capability for the manifestation of Divinity—is achieved through initiation, which is accomplished following the Descent of Power [śaktipāta], which is inferred by observing the disciple’s devotion, their spontaneous desire to approach a guru, and so on. This is taught in the sacred tradition with this verse:

“The essence of insight [into one’s true nature] is given; the saṃskāras of being a bound soul are destroyed. Therefore, [because] it involves giving [dī] and destroying [kṣi], it is known in our system as dīkṣā.”



From quickly glossing over it unfortunately no mention of knots or granthis, so your guess is as good as mine. Anyway, Abhinavaguptas writings are highly recommended reading material on Kashmir Shaivism, and can be found online, it also supports, and explains the sudden path (not saying it doesn't have it's own practices, including sadhana) as follows:

Abhinavagupta - Tantrasāra - The Modes of Realization (chapter 1);
Quote:

When Śiva (i.e. the Light of Consciousness), in his independent freedom, causes himself to appear in a contracted form, we call him ‘the individual self’ (aṇu). And through that same freedom he again illuminates/manifests his real being (svātman) so that his nature as Śiva—the unbounded Light of Consciousness—shines forth.

When that occurs, he may illuminate his real being without needing any method to do so or with such methods—again as an expression of his independent freedom.




Abhinavagupta - Tantrasāra - The Pathless Path - how realization can happen with almost no effort or method (chapter 2);
Quote:

This very Highest Divinity, the self-manifest Light of Consciousness, is always already my very own Being—when that is the case, what could any method of practice achieve? Not the attainment of my true nature, because that is eternally present; not making that nature apparent, because it is constantly illuminating itself; not the removal of veils, because no “veil” whatsoever exists; not the penetration into That, because nothing other than It exists to enter It. What method can there be here, when there is an impossibility of anything separate from That?

Therefore, this whole existence is One reality: Consciousness alone—unbroken by time, uncircumscribed by space, unclouded by attributes, unconfined by forms, unexpressed by words, and unaccounted for by the ordinary means of knowledge. For it is the cause, through its own Will alone, by which all these sources of limitation—from time to the ordinary means of knowledge—attain their own natures. This Reality is free and independent, a mass of bliss, and That alone am I; thus the entire universe is held as a reflection within me.



Anyway, interesting discussion nonetheless!


Edited by spinvis (09/18/23 06:52 AM)


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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28473525 - 09/18/23 09:40 AM (4 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
:awemazing::lol:

The CC wielding the awemazing orb as mandala vajra in luminous spontaneity.

Actually I didn't know there were vajra mandalas.







These beautiful mandalas reminded me of something I read, but forgot where. With regards to the wheel of dharma, every spoke on the wheel is a different path, teaching, individual. Below is from wiki:

Buddhaghosa
Quote:

“It is the beginningless round of rebirths that is called the ’Wheel of the round of rebirths’ (saṃsāracakka). Ignorance (avijjā) is its hub (or nave) because it is its root. Ageing-and-death (jarā-maraṇa) is its rim (or felly) because it terminates it. The remaining ten links [of Dependent Origination] are its spokes [i.e. saṅkhāra up to the process of becoming, bhava].”





Bhagavad Gita - verses 14, 15 and 16, of Chapter 3;
Quote:

"From food, the beings are born; from rain, food is produced; rain proceeds from sacrifice (yagnya); yagnya arises out of action; know that from Brahma, action proceeds; Brahma is born of Brahman, the eternal Paramatman. The one who does not follow the wheel thus revolving, leads a sinful, vain life, rejoicing in the senses."




Anyway, it's also in relation with the Trishula (or the Three Jewels from Buddhism), and Mahadevi, and Parashakti within Kashmir Shaivism for example.


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Re: The Psychology of Samadhi - Patanjali's Eight Limbs of Yoga [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28473549 - 09/18/23 09:54 AM (4 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
Of course the no practice addresses, works to dissolve that as good as anything, but no practice needs to be practiced, in mindfulness, witness, being, sitting, serving, but it is a proactivity for a suffering, conditioned being.



Yes! Awesome summary! Somehow I'm definitely in the corner of non, and it can only be described by what it's not. :lol:


Edited by spinvis (09/18/23 09:55 AM)


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