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covertjoy

Registered: 07/09/23
Posts: 272
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Stabailizing a hybrid
#28394941 - 07/14/23 02:56 AM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
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My understanding is that when breeding two different fungi together and selecting a desirable phenotype, consequent cultivation using the spores from the hybrid will be unlikely to produce the same phenotype. Assuming this understanding is correct, what would the best practice be for stabilizing a hybrid, let's say between two Psilocybe Cubensis strains?
Would the process be to collect as many haploid isolates from the hybrid as possible and cross the strongest together and cultivate them, selecting the closest or most desirable phenotype of them and repeating the process with that, and repeating this for several generations? Would that stabilize the hybrid?
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Eclipse3130
Servant of the Fungi



Registered: 10/06/13
Posts: 6,220
Loc: PNW
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Re: Stabailizing a hybrid [Re: covertjoy]
#28395191 - 07/14/23 09:14 AM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
covertjoy said: My understanding is that when breeding two different fungi together and selecting a desirable phenotype, consequent cultivation using the spores from the hybrid will be unlikely to produce the same phenotype
This is true for something that wasn't hybridized as well, generally running spores back of most strains will yield new phenotypes. Some strains more variation than others. The variation generally comes from factors like how heavily that strain has been bred in the past, and how close to F1 it is if so, ideally the further you get out(F10, F20, F30, the variation you see should be tiny)
Quote:
covertjoy said: Would the process be to collect as many haploid isolates from the hybrid as possible and cross the strongest together and cultivate them, selecting the closest or most desirable phenotype of them and repeating the process with that, and repeating this for several generations? Would that stabilize the hybrid?
You may be overcomplicating breeding it is a very simple process.
Once you hybridize something the resulting generation will be considered F1 and then F2, the variation in the genetics is highest at this point as you will get the most traits from both parents in the spores.
The further you "isolate" specific phenotypes down the line and continue to run the spores back, the further away from that initial genetic diversity you get. That process is achieved by cloning a desirable fruit and/or taking spores, and repeating the process this is how you stabilize traits.
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
Edited by Eclipse3130 (07/14/23 09:25 AM)
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covertjoy

Registered: 07/09/23
Posts: 272
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Quote:
Eclipse3130 said: This is true for something that wasn't hybridized as well, generally running spores back of most strains will yield new phenotypes. Some strains more variation than others. The variation generally comes from factors like how heavily that strain has been bred in the past, and how close to F1 it is if so, ideally the further you get out(F10, F20, F30, the variation you see should be tiny)
This makes sense, thanks.
Quote:
Eclipse3130 said: You may be overcomplicating breeding it is a very simple process.
Once you hybridize something the resulting generation will be considered F1 and then F2, the variation in the genetics is highest at this point as you will get the most traits from both parents in the spores.
The further you "isolate" specific phenotypes down the line and continue to run the spores back, the further away from that initial genetic diversity you get. That process is achieved by cloning a desirable fruit and/or taking spores, and repeating the process this is how you stabilize traits.
My thinking here is that after growing the F1 hybrids until the desired phentype is achieved and collecting spores (presumably from any fruit if they are grown from a pure culture), there needs to be a thorough selection process again in the F2 generation. Perhaps isolating monokaryotes from the F1 and crossing the fasted growers is overkill, but either way there should presumably be as many F2 candidates as possible from which to select the lineage to take into F3? So at the very least isolating X number of cultures from F1 spores and growing them out separately for selection? Otherwise the F2+ generations will drift from the selected F1 and stabalise as something without the traits that were being selected for in the F1 generation.
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Eclipse3130
Servant of the Fungi



Registered: 10/06/13
Posts: 6,220
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 47 minutes, 7 seconds
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Re: Stabailizing a hybrid [Re: covertjoy]
#28395838 - 07/14/23 09:10 PM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
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Yes it's mostly important on F2 generation. F2 has more genetic diversity than F1, mostly dominant genes are present in an F1, once you run the F2 you have higher chances for recessive and recessive gene combinations
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
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Just M
Cosmic Student


Registered: 08/06/23
Posts: 84
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 3 months, 30 days
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Re: Stabailizing a hybrid [Re: covertjoy]
#28437129 - 08/17/23 12:49 PM (5 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
covertjoy said: My understanding is that when breeding two different fungi together and selecting a desirable phenotype, consequent cultivation using the spores from the hybrid will be unlikely to produce the same phenotype. Assuming this understanding is correct, what would the best practice be for stabilizing a hybrid, let's say between two Psilocybe Cubensis strains?
Would the process be to collect as many haploid isolates from the hybrid as possible and cross the strongest together and cultivate them, selecting the closest or most desirable phenotype of them and repeating the process with that, and repeating this for several generations? Would that stabilize the hybrid?
Best method for stabilizing Phenos in your cross is just multiple generation.
Then if you want to make the cross sterile (which has its purpose in commercial settings) you can back cross it.
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APE x NSS cross I created
Cluster heaven.
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