|
wolf8312
Pennywise


Registered: 10/01/12
Posts: 2,356
Last seen: 2 days, 11 hours
|
Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: Kiwi89]
#28600777 - 12/28/23 11:02 AM (30 days, 14 hours ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kiwi89 said:
Quote:
wolf8312 said:
Quote:
Kiwi89 said:
Quote:
Nillion said:
The DMT laser thing is like claiming that the stars, or bright flashes of light, are always there and that head trauma unlocks our ability to see them.
It is fascinating that people are taking a drug that they know makes them hallucinate then adamantly deny that they are hallucinating.
Respectfully, such an attitude points to the high likelihood that you have not yourself experienced full on hyperspace. Even experienced (DMT) members here who do not themselves believe in these entities can surely still fully understand why many others do!
We are not discussing Dramamine hallucinations here but experiences that utterly transcend all human imagination and comprehension.
Respectfully the laser experiment is not dissolving reality to a shift into hyper space.
I made no comment about how real entities may feel, but still if my comment was shifted to that argument it would still stand. When we take drugs the effects must be contributed to the drug we are taking.
I agree it might all be hallucination. But after a few experiences in particular I am definitely no longer certain.
-------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown
|
stareatclouds
star eat clouds?



Registered: 09/29/14
Posts: 9,881
|
Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: Freedom]
#28600779 - 12/28/23 11:05 AM (30 days, 13 hours ago) |
|
|
Kiwi had some of the dumbest posts in the laser thread, if I recall correctly. In fact, I think it came to our attention that his username is the fruit closest to his brain-size, ha ha ha. Truly sad, indeed. But that's coming from me, someone so intelligent they should be called Watermelon84 on here. Actually, what are those massive spikey looking bastards from Thailand called? Jackfruit? Yeah, that's me, alright. Jackfruit85, the biggest brain in all of the land.
Anyway, Kiwi is a ding-dong, but this Nillion dude is hellbent on showing him up, though. We're going to have to call him Watermeal4 or something soon here. People are so eager to spout off confidently incorrect opinions about something they're not even accurately discussing from the get-go. Anyway, I need to get to work. Have a good day everyone.
Freedom,
Agree with the overall theme, but a "wavelength of light" is definitely a real thing in reality, not just a thought. It's a measurable property of electromagnetic radiation. But yeah, blue is not objective reality, but a subjective perception that our brains are guessing their best on.
|
Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
|
Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: wolf8312]
#28600788 - 12/28/23 11:13 AM (30 days, 13 hours ago) |
|
|
Quote:
wolf8312 said: Are you suggesting that because you or your friends have not experienced DMT entities on DMT that this is proof that conclusively invalidates them?
Nope, I don't believe them to be validated or invalidated. I believe them to be very debatable, though, and I do not personally believe that they exist.
Quote:
wolf8312 said: Is it not at least possible that you didn’t take a high enough dose?
Correct, but that doesn't mean that I won't experience them in the future if I choose to use DMT again, I keep an open mind.
It may even be possible that I am under a type of protection that keeps them from me.
I still consider the laser experiment to be silly.
|
Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
|
Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: stareatclouds]
#28600789 - 12/28/23 11:16 AM (30 days, 13 hours ago) |
|
|
Quote:
stareatclouds said: Anyway, Kiwi is a ding-dong, but this Nillion dude is hellbent on showing him up, though. We're going to have to call him Watermeal4 or something soon here.
Classy.
|
Kiwi89
Stranger
Registered: 06/16/20
Posts: 648
|
Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: stareatclouds]
#28600793 - 12/28/23 11:22 AM (30 days, 13 hours ago) |
|
|
Quote:
stareatclouds said: Kiwi had some of the dumbest posts in the laser thread, if I recall correctly. In fact, I think it came to our attention that his username is the fruit closest to his brain-size, ha ha ha. Truly sad, indeed.
Of course if you are unable to discuss a topic you can always revert to insults instead.
|
Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
|
Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: stareatclouds]
#28600796 - 12/28/23 11:24 AM (30 days, 13 hours ago) |
|
|
Quote:
stareatclouds said: The DMT experience is very well known for turning huge numbers of atheists into believers
That's quite the imagination you have there.
|
Kiwi89
Stranger
Registered: 06/16/20
Posts: 648
|
Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: wolf8312]
#28600798 - 12/28/23 11:27 AM (30 days, 13 hours ago) |
|
|
Quote:
wolf8312 said: I agree it might all be hallucination. But after a few experiences in particular I am definitely no longer certain.
I think this is the nature of being human and ingesting mind altering substances. Our brains are so powerful that we are able to invent, create, imagine.
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,849
Last seen: 41 minutes, 52 seconds
|
Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: Kiwi89] 1
#28600812 - 12/28/23 11:40 AM (30 days, 13 hours ago) |
|
|
I've had experiences with entitites that felt very very real.
I also have dreams every night that feel very very real. Because those dreams evaporate upon waking every day, I don't think the feeling of realness necesarrily indicates anything
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,526
|
Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: Kiwi89] 1
#28600814 - 12/28/23 11:44 AM (30 days, 13 hours ago) |
|
|
I wonder if originally that sculpture was painted!
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
|
Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
|
Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
#28600820 - 12/28/23 11:52 AM (30 days, 13 hours ago) |
|
|
Studies like this are related: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0269881120916143
But their methodology is flawed, it is based on self reporting. When one examines the reported details the experiences are all over the place and not particularly consistent, despite most respondents being white males of a particular age range, which evidently is the group that uses DMT most heavily. Yet despite the common aspects of the users who responded to the study the details are still extremely diverse.
I am reminded of this.
Quote:
When Burroughs described a psychedelic trip as an earth-shaking metaphysical experience, Schultes responded, “That’s funny, Bill, all I saw was colors.”
That is William Burroughs trying to explain to Richard Evans Schultes how his ayahuasca experience was this amazing spiritual thing. Schultes, who had take the material repeatedly never reported a sacred experience.
I'd expect that if entities were real that they would not be so inconsistent. Many people who take DMT and ayahuasca do not experience them.
|
wolf8312
Pennywise


Registered: 10/01/12
Posts: 2,356
Last seen: 2 days, 11 hours
|
Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: Nillion] 1
#28600828 - 12/28/23 11:58 AM (30 days, 13 hours ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Nillion said:
Quote:
wolf8312 said: Are you suggesting that because you or your friends have not experienced DMT entities on DMT that this is proof that conclusively invalidates them?
Nope, I don't believe them to be validated or invalidated. I believe them to be very debatable, though, and I do not personally believe that they exist.
Quote:
wolf8312 said: Is it not at least possible that you didn’t take a high enough dose?
Correct, but that doesn't mean that I won't experience them in the future if I choose to use DMT again, I keep an open mind.
It may even be possible that I am under a type of protection that keeps them from me.
I still consider the laser experiment to be silly.
Again I suggest trying a high enough dose of oral Aya/Anahucasa to experience the upper levels of hyperspace before forming and expressing an opinion.
Quote:
Nillion said:
Quote:
stareatclouds said: The DMT experience is very well known for turning huge numbers of atheists into believers
That's quite the imagination you have there.
You just said in the post above that you haven’t experienced entities with DMT. You also said both that you couldn’t know for sure if they were real (paraphrasing) and that you believed they were not real!
I don’t understand why you are being so (sneeringly) dismissive about experiences that you yourself so clearly do not understand and have never experienced.
-------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown
|
Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
|
Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: wolf8312]
#28600841 - 12/28/23 12:12 PM (30 days, 12 hours ago) |
|
|
Quote:
wolf8312 said: You just said in the post above that you haven’t experienced entities with DMT. You also said both that you couldn’t know for sure if they were real (paraphrasing) and that you believed they were not real!
I've not experienced Santa Claus so cannot say that I know he doesn't exist either, but I still don't believe that he does. If I do encounter him then I will surely change my mind!
Quote:
wolf8312 said: Again I suggest trying a high enough dose of oral Aya/Anahucasa to experience the upper levels of hyperspace before forming and expressing an opinion.
I wonder how many times Schultes experienced ayahuasca? What was that quote again? “That’s funny, Bill, all I saw was colors.”
You don't have a clue when it comes to what I understand or have experienced. I'm not here insulting you, offering fallacies about how if you just took this amount you would see it my way etc. I'm literally just sharing my opinion and being flamed by insecure people who are angry that I don't agree with them.
Quote:
wolf8312 said: I don’t understand why you are being so (sneeringly) dismissive about experiences that you yourself so clearly do not understand and have never experienced.
I don't know why you and others feel the need to be a dick to people who have had a lot of psychedelics experiences and who have no entity encounters, but here we are.
|
stareatclouds
star eat clouds?



Registered: 09/29/14
Posts: 9,881
|
Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: Nillion]
#28600889 - 12/28/23 01:10 PM (30 days, 11 hours ago) |
|
|
Kiwi,
Unable to discuss what topic? The laser? I discussed it for like 15 pages, including politely explaining to you personally just how much sense your thoughts didn't make. Maybe brush up on your posts ITT and my replies to them?
Quote:
Nillion said: That's quite the imagination you have there.
Uh, okay.
https://twitter.com/MikeyLion_/status/1709709138832527452 https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2020-61759-008 https://www.vice.com/en/article/ep4dxk/its-official-dmt-makes-you-believe-in-god https://philpapers.org/rec/LETPAA https://hub.jhu.edu/magazine/2020/fall/psychedelics-god-atheism/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6478303/ https://www.dazeddigital.com/life-culture/article/49677/1/people-who-found-god-religion-taking-dmt-psychedelics-drugs https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/newsroom/news-releases/2019/04/experiences-of-ultimate-reality-or-god-confer-lasting-benefits-to-mental-health https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist/comments/hqt56a/why_23_of_former_atheist_believe_in_some_force/
It's a pretty well-known phenomenon. The only pushback I really see are people saying it didn't change them into devout religious fanatics, going to church or something. I find it funny you dispute this.
Quote:
Nillion said: But their methodology is flawed, it is based on self reporting.
That is not a flawed methodology for this type of study, obviously. If you actually think this (meaning you don't understand what a silly opinion it is), why even bother quoting any studies on these experiences?
|
Icon
Bloomer



Registered: 05/15/14
Posts: 2,866
Last seen: 6 hours, 32 minutes
|
Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: stareatclouds]
#28600898 - 12/28/23 01:19 PM (30 days, 11 hours ago) |
|
|
Quote:
It seems very convenient when people claim it's your "subconscious", this not-very-well-understood part of our mind with zero evidence of these capabilities.
Maybe it's convenient but I'm not claiming it's a full explanation, just that it's integral. And I already brought up dreams as an example of the subconscious indeed having the capability - you disagree? What do you think, dreams are real too? I think you're severely underestimating the power of the mind. Our waking consciousness is highly filtered for survival. Behind the scenes there are thousands of calculations happening every second, way more than one thought per 3/10th second as redgreenvines estimates.
DMT visuals are fascinating but I'm sure we've all seen things just as mind boggling in art. It's cool to see it 'alive' and in person, but I don't think it's outside of anyone's subconscious potential. All possible patterns and fractals can be traced back to common denominators and equations. We can't imagine a unique pattern any more than we can imagine a number that doesn't fit within the scale of integers. Every thought exists theoretically, waiting to be calculated or imagined. The probability of certain thoughts and visuals are higher depending on the person.
Quote:
What even is a totally foreign concept and why would that be a necessary component to determining entity origin or authenticity?
Well a totally foreign concept technically doesn't exist in my theory because we wouldn't be capable of imagining such a thing. My point is that everything experienced on DMT is indeed a familiar concept to the person. Some concepts like the trickster are so universal, it's practically in our DNA. Seeing trickster take different forms in isolated cultures is an example of what's happening on DMT. People experience similar behaviors and describe them in similar ways. There's no specific, invisible, sentient being known as Loki out there waiting to be contacted, but people still relate to the archetype in their own ways. Some would even describe it as the character of DMT. In fact, Terence McKenna said that “the archetype of DMT is the circus.” https://www.samwoolfe.com/2019/02/jesters-tricksters-dmt-experience.html
IMO, DMT is a consciousness booster. Makes the subcon go zoom zoom. The trickster may be the ideal representative for consciousness because it's role-crossing. Beneath any other archetypes we may exhibit, like leader; provider; caretaker; is the consciousness archetype, the trickster. The childlike wonder of playing with our reality. Maybe we personify it on DMT because tricksters, to trick, need self awareness and the presence of another consciousness. The trickster entices us to look at an alternative perspective, like a personification of psychedelic drugs.
Quote:
Regardless, you've clearly pulled this straight from your ass. People are so eager to spout off confidently incorrect opinions about something they're not even accurately discussing from the get-go.
Yet you can make claims out of your ass like "Plenty of people report seeing blue, 4-armed Gods in Hyperspace, many of whom swear they'd never seen/heard of Vishnu prior." ? You know, what you say about others is often less telling about them and more telling about yourself. Your arrogance isn't fooling anyone. If you don't have the patience to think about and consider other people's points, just let someone else talk. Why is it so important to you that your beliefs go unchallenged?
My belief that religious experiences mirror the religions we know is based off personal experience and years of reading reports. Maybe that makes me biased, but it's not pulled out of my ass. What makes you think people who imagine a being with multiple limbs have never ever been exposed to the idea before? I'm willing to bet just about any human over the age of 12 has been exposed to an image or story depicting a being with multiple limbs. You don't have to know its popular context to store the image subconsciously to appropriate in your own interpretation later. That's how ideas and archetypes work.
Quote:
I'm not saying it points to them as being more than the mind, but it's pretty interesting, I think.
Well they're either more than the mind, or they're not. Can't have your cake and eat it too. I think an obvious reason that the entities are not real is that the information is never external. One demonstration would be asking the entities for the powerball numbers. If they exist outside of time and space, they should know the numbers either omnisciently or because you promise to come back and tell them in one week. TBH idk how they'd know the powerball numbers, but if there's not a way to know that then there's a fair chance they can't know anything else relevant to the real world. That's not to say you can't still learn from interacting with them, but that it's all contained within the limits of your subconscious. You're not going to come out of a DMT trip knowing a foreign language, lost invention, code to the universe, or anything that practical.
I don't see the point in treating them like foreign entities when no real trade of ideas is possible. Your laser language is never going to decipher into anything meaningful.
Edited by Icon (12/28/23 02:02 PM)
|
stareatclouds
star eat clouds?



Registered: 09/29/14
Posts: 9,881
|
Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: Icon]
#28600934 - 12/28/23 01:55 PM (30 days, 11 hours ago) |
|
|
It wasn't a hypothesis or an attack on you. I am agnostic on the entities, bro. With that being said, I don't really find anything in that last one worth engaging further. It's just mindless reductionism with zero explanations for anything in-between. Dreaming is not at all comparable to a DMT experience.
No offense, but there isn't any substantive ideas for me to dig much into. "I think there are far more similarities between the experiences and our personalities than there are spontaneous, totally foreign concepts." Well, yeah, you apparently don't even think something can be a totally foreign concept, so what the hell am I even responding to? Why not just lead off with, "I don't believe anything about this experience can be anything but mind made." This is what I mean by boring ass reductionism. You might as well say, "YoU tOoK a DrUg!"
Quote:
My point is that everything experienced on DMT is indeed a familiar concept to the person.
Demonstrably false, unless you believe every living human is familiar with everything ever. But I feel like you're going to devolve "familiar concept to the person" --> "person recognizes something about whatever it is and tries their best, which I think I already covered. Haha, skimming your post, and yep. We went from Vishnu, a very specific being, obviously, into, "What? You're telling me someone ain't never heard of SOMETHING with more limbs? Oh, a blue genie type thing is foreign? Who hasn't seen Alladin?!" Okay, yeah, someone played Mortal Kombat or saw an octopus once, so it's not worthwhile. Regardless, it's yet another pointless distinction to me, either way. I don't place the emphasis on this that you do with regard to entity explanation.
Your claim was that, "when people manifest a messianic experience it's always in their primary or secondary religion." It's matter-of-factly stating something you obviously can't know or provide evidence for, thus, pulled from your ass.
My reply said, "Plenty of people report seeing blue, 4-armed Gods in Hyperspace, many of whom swear they'd never seen/heard of Vishnu prior." "Plenty", not all. "Many of whom", not everybody. If you think these are comparable, we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm relaying something interesting that is clearly some shit from TRs I've read. It's cool, it's fun, it's believable, and dammit, people liked it.
You? Every time I turn around, you're shrieking at the top of your lungs like a howler monkey, bouncing up and down while flinging poo everywhere. "EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO DOES DMT SEES THEIR #1 RELIGIOUS FIGURE. FACT. IF THEY REJECT THEIR #1 CHOICE, THEIR MIND SHUFFLES IN THEIR BACKUP #2 RELIGIOUS FIGURE. FACT. LAST WEEK, THE BOUNCER AT THE BAR SAID, "HEY, WEREN'T YOU THAT WEIRDO SNIFFING THE BAR STOOLS ON NEVERENDING NACHO NIGHT?" HE HAD A STUPID, PUNY, CLOSED MIND LIKE YOU. FOOL, I SAID, IT WAS BUT MY SUBCONSCIOUS ARCHETYPE!"
I massively disagree with your last paragraph as it's kind of childish and silly to assume they'd know the future or would even care about something that may be silly to them. I also think it's rude and egotistical to make them jump through hoops to help you cheat at Powerball. Although it'd be hilarious if the Jester convinced you to bet huge on some long odds game and had you tank your life savings. Or kept giving you the wrong answers to solve on Wheel of Fortune or some shit.
Basically, I think you're assuming way too much about their nature, goals, ethics, capabilities, etc. You also ignored my point about how intelligent and different the entities act compared to the "host" allegedly responsible for them. I'm intelligent and different like no other so yeah, it's nothing worth paying attention to for me. But saying people don't give their mind enough credit should just be called for what it is: people who have no fucking clue how to explain anything, but are lazy bastards who want to feel they've made a point.
Anyway, I've heard Dr. Gallimore reference entities fluently speaking an incredibly rare and unique Amazon language that was validated by a linguist who studies it specifically. I wish I had a paper on that. The language was Piraha. They have a history with aya so maybe it can be explained by the collective unconscious or DNA/ancestors theory if that's your bag. I'll try and find it for you. Here: https://x.com/alieninsect/status/1707238043206472102
But just for fun, imagine if the entities gave you clues to construct a cheap device that when combined with DMT, you could see something novel and repeatable each time. Would you consider that intelligence if it were true?
Quote:
If you don't have the patience to think about and consider other people's points, just let someone else talk. Why is it so important to you that your beliefs go unchallenged?
None of these are my "beliefs" and I think my reply to you was pretty reasonable and rational. I did think about and consider your points. There's no requirement or guarantee I won't find them poorly thought out. No idea how you're registering my open discourse on the topic as needing my beliefs to go unchallenged, either. I wish you could return fire with something thought provoking, man. Do it!
Edited by stareatclouds (12/28/23 02:21 PM)
|
Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
|
Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: stareatclouds]
#28600940 - 12/28/23 02:00 PM (30 days, 11 hours ago) |
|
|
Quote:
stareatclouds said: That is not a flawed methodology for this type of study, obviously. If you actually think this (meaning you don't understand what a silly opinion it is)
Go insult the authors of the study, they identified their methodology as flawed in several aspects. It's not a silly opinion at all.
Dismissing and insulting others who disagree with you gives me the impression that your intelligence is considerably lower than you believe.
|
Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
|
Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: Icon]
#28600942 - 12/28/23 02:03 PM (30 days, 10 hours ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icon said: My point is that everything experienced on DMT is indeed a familiar concept to the person. Some concepts like the trickster are so universal, it's practically in our DNA. Seeing trickster take different forms in isolated cultures is an example of what's happening on DMT.
I don't believe you to have much knowledge about what you are writing of.
Read the actual studies, this trickster or jester thing is not widely reported, it is one of the least reported aspects from people who experience the drug in the study I recently posted a link to. In fact the amount of people reporting this same type of thing was equal to those reporting having encountered a demon.
And this idea of a trickster god role, it indicates that you are unfamiliar with the native american material on the topic.
|
Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 1 hour, 3 minutes
|
Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: Nillion]
#28600948 - 12/28/23 02:07 PM (30 days, 10 hours ago) |
|
|
However what if the reality is that in some cases psychedelics expand the senses to allow perception of things that are not otherwise accessible to the senses and can also cause perceptions of things that simply do not exist?
Yeah, this is roughly what I mean by the words “state of mind” or “state of consciousness”. Perception of things that do not exist in the external world we would say exist in the mind.
An expansion of the set of things able to be perceived. Invisible cats and dogs that can’t be accessed by anything other than a brain with foreign chemicals.
It’s all just semantics innit?
- “I believe in invisible cats” * “well that depends on what you mean by believe, and I, and in, and invisible, and cats”

Stareatclouds, what happens if someone does DMT and doesn’t see the code in the laser? Did they accidentally crack through into the wrong reality where the developers of the universe didn’t hide their code in lasers only able to be perceived by a human sense organ while under the influence of a specific dose of a specific chemical?
Not sure if I’m picking up what your putting down yo 🤙
|
Nillion
Nobody

Registered: 04/14/22
Posts: 1,000
Loc: Terra Firma
|
Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: stareatclouds]
#28600949 - 12/28/23 02:08 PM (30 days, 10 hours ago) |
|
|
Quote:
stareatclouds said:plenty of people report seeing blue, 4-armed Gods in Hyperspace, many of whom swear they'd never seen/heard of Vishnu prior.
I challenge you to find just three examples of this and post links. You're talking out your ass. Bro.
|
Bardy


Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 2,184
Last seen: 1 hour, 3 minutes
|
Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: Nillion]
#28600950 - 12/28/23 02:08 PM (30 days, 10 hours ago) |
|
|
Yeah I think there’s a bit of arse talking happening too
|
|