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Invisiblestareatclouds
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Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: Bardy]
    #28599366 - 12/27/23 03:31 AM (1 month, 21 hours ago)

I am referring to your entire post. You're stating it matter-of-factly and dismissing other explanations. I'm just pointing out that this isn't a settled conclusion and nothing has been explained.

I don't agree that a sober person not seeing them has anything to do with their realness; they obviously need DMT to be "seen" or experienced for the most part. Plenty of people have reported the same entity at the same time, which I don't agree means they're real, either. And I personally don't think them being a part of our mind excludes them from being independent of it, either. Everything is in our mind.

The "subconscious" is like this massive, convenient load-bearing wall that psychonauts are too willing to attribute all unexplainable things to. Current neuroscience doesn't seem to explain the DMT experience (at least not yet). And there are credible reports of intelligence from the entities that defies them being solely constructed by the trippers mind. For instance, the entities speaking an extremely rare language from some jungle tribe, verified as fluent by one of the few linguists who can speak/understand it. That's pretty wild.


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OfflineSoul Flight
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Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: stareatclouds]
    #28599370 - 12/27/23 03:49 AM (1 month, 21 hours ago)

Some Buddhists and Hindus will say there is no free will and thoughts and emotions exist outside of your body. There is no self, no I, and no me. It is all one. We have it all backwards. We think thoughts and emotions exist inside us and the external world exists outside us. But it might be Plato’s allegory of the cave. The external world is an illusion and actually is a projection of our internal world. And thoughts and feelings exist outside what we think of as us. I suspect Allan Watts and Eckart Thoelle and maybe Abraham Hicks also preach this but subtly and not directly.

Lex Fridman mentions this fairly often in his podcasts.It is similar to the selfish gene theory where we are just vectors for an intron or exon. We are the AI. We are the paper clip machine. We are only a fancy dressing for our gametes and genitals. Our gametes are the real entity or the selfish gene is the real entity. Or maybe ideas simply use us as a vector. We are like a virus containing the idea and the idea spreads and evolves over time.


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OfflineBardy
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Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: stareatclouds]
    #28599380 - 12/27/23 04:07 AM (1 month, 20 hours ago)

They’re definitely real in the sense that they happen, so we agree about that.

And we definitely don’t know anything for sure about why they come about, so we agree about that too.

I’m not sure how you can take the position that they’re part of one’s mind at the same time as being independent from one’s mind though? That puzzles me.

Could it be like a form of dissociation where parts of our mind are separated from other parts of our mind, causing this feeling of separateness? Instead of the mind recognising the model it has built itself of the body which houses it and the models it has formed of other people, maybe it fails to recognise these models as its own creations? Does that make sense?

I agree that everything that we have direct access to is of the mind, or consciousness, but that’s not to say that the external world doesn’t exist at all.

I would like to see the evidence for this entity speaking a language which the individual did not know. That seems like a very far fetched claim to me that would need rock solid evidence to be proven true. There have been many tricks played on people along similar lines for a very long time. People who claim they can speak to the dead play these types of tricks on people all the time.
I feel like it’s something I would’ve heard about if it were true, but maybe not.

I’m not actually putting any of this down to the subconscious. Like I said, I believe it’s more likely a dissociation type of thing married into an amplification of certain aspects of mind, but I don’t know.
Maybe it’s something similar to what’s happening with schizophrenic people when they can’t tell if the voices they hear are originating in their own minds or from their senses?

Current neuroscience explains basically nothing about how experience comes about, even in normal waking consciousness.

I just don’t like explanations that make things more complicated… like saying things such as “the brain is an antenna that when tuned in with DMT can contact alien entities”. That just makes no sense to me whatsoever. You could come up with an infinite number of reasons for entities if you thought along such abstract lines. The reality of things is often much more grounded than such explanations in my opinion.


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OfflineBardy
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Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28599386 - 12/27/23 04:16 AM (1 month, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

Soul Flight said:
Some Buddhists and Hindus will say there is no free will and thoughts and emotions exist outside of your body. There is no self, no I, and no me. It is all one. We have it all backwards. We think thoughts and emotions exist inside us and the external world exists outside us. But it might be Plato’s allegory of the cave. The external world is an illusion and actually is a projection of our internal world. And thoughts and feelings exist outside what we think of as us. I suspect Allan Watts and Eckart Thoelle and maybe Abraham Hicks also preach this but subtly and not directly.

Lex Fridman mentions this fairly often in his podcasts.It is similar to the selfish gene theory where we are just vectors for an intron or exon. We are the AI. We are the paper clip machine. We are only a fancy dressing for our gametes and genitals. Our gametes are the real entity or the selfish gene is the real entity. Or maybe ideas simply use us as a vector. We are like a virus containing the idea and the idea spreads and evolves over time.




Well yes, our experience is all we have, and it’s the only thing we can know is real for sure in a way… but a Buddhist is still going to run away from a hungry tiger if they value their life.
They’re not actually saying that the external world doesn’t exist. They’re using that kind of language as a means of pointing towards the experience of pure, unadulterated consciousness.


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Invisiblestareatclouds
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Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: Bardy]
    #28599393 - 12/27/23 04:26 AM (1 month, 20 hours ago)

Lex Fridman is an idiot, but us being AGI is something I've been considering more and more.

Quote:

Bardy said:
I’m not sure how you can take the position that they’re part of one’s mind at the same time as being independent from one’s mind though? That puzzles me.




For the same reason that the song coming from my speaker is independent of my mind, but exists in my mind. DMT allowing us to "connect" with something external that beams into our mind is definitely possible to me. It allowing us to see what's always there is possible. Us being AGI in a simulated environment where DMT allows us to connect with those running it is possible to me. The entities all being AI themselves is possible to me. :undecided:


Quote:

Could it be like a form of dissociation where parts of our mind are separated from other parts of our mind, causing this feeling of separateness? Instead of the mind recognising the model it has built itself of the body which houses it and the models it has formed of other people, maybe it fails to recognise these models as its own creations? Does that make sense?




Yes, it could be.


Quote:

I agree that everything that we have direct access to is of the mind, or consciousness, but that’s not to say that the external world doesn’t exist at all.




I don't think the external world doesn't exist, but it still all exists in our mind. Our eyes and brain are filtering out and arranging things to the best of it's capabilities. We only see like 3% of the electro-magnetic spectrum or something wild like that. Who knows what we're missing? Who knows what exactly the external world looks like to something else. DMT being able to change it around makes me realize it's malleable by something or another.


Quote:

I would like to see the evidence for this entity speaking a language which the individual did not know. That seems like a very far fetched claim to me that would need rock solid evidence to be proven true. There have been many tricks played on people along similar lines for a very long time. People who claim they can speak to the dead play these types of tricks on people all the time.
I feel like it’s something I would’ve heard about if it were true, but maybe not.




I've only seen it referenced as verified by Dr. Andrew Gallimore, but don't have information beyond that. He's very well respected in the DMT field and has been studying the molecule for many, many years now. He's a computational neurobiologist, pharmacologist, and chemist with PhD's from Cambridge, so not a hack. I know it was this language, though.


Quote:

I just don’t like explanations that make things more complicated… like saying things such as “the brain is an antenna that when tuned in with DMT can contact alien entities”. That just makes no sense to me whatsoever. You could come up with an infinite number of reasons for entities if you thought along such abstract lines. The reality of things is often much more grounded than such explanations in my opinion.




Right, but regardless of whether you find strict reductionist materialism to be the most sensible, it's not explained. That's all I'm saying. People usually dismiss other theories entirely as if those positing them haven't ever considered, "it's all in your head." Not saying you were, just saying in general. I don't spend too much time theorizing since I know I can't know. I just don't find the reductionist viewpoint all that appealing when even with the head start of it being self-generated, nobody has a viable explanation for anything. "It connects your subconscious and voila! Entity contact" is the same as "vibrational energy turns your brain into a receiver!"


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Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: stareatclouds]
    #28599406 - 12/27/23 05:11 AM (1 month, 19 hours ago)

Oh right, when I said part of one’s mind I meant originating chiefly from the mind like a dream, not in the same way a song is sensed and then experienced by us.

I 100% agree with your statement about the world existing in our minds.
I think an important thing to add to this is that our sense organs don’t change how they go about sensing the world when we ingest psychedelics. In a sense, it’s the same raw data coming in but our brains are interpreting it in different ways. Would you agree with that?

An example might be that we only have three types of rods and cones that are only capable of sensing a certain part of the spectrum of light, so when we see different colours and images on psychedelics it’s logical to assume that the brain is doing that and it’s not our eyes gaining the ability to sense something else that is always present.

Thanks for dropping his name, I’ll check it out 😊

Yeah, I agree that the experiential aspect of it is unexplainable. That’s probably part of the reason why it’s so interesting to so many people.
I’m not coming here to say “I know the truth of it”. I’m just saying that whatever it is, it’s part of us. Which is a very ambiguous statement haha.

Thanks for the chat. I better get to sleep. Maybe I’ll perceive the entities of my dreams differently tonight.


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Invisiblestareatclouds
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Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: Bardy]
    #28599433 - 12/27/23 06:13 AM (1 month, 18 hours ago)

Yes, I don't think our physical components change, but I do believe we're capable of experiencing things we otherwise wouldn't be (which make no sense to me). For instance, when I was in Hyperspace, the entity that was controlling the trip suddenly appeared ahead of me and behind me at the same time. That obviously isn't possible whatsoever and is very interesting. It was like a 4D object came own into my 3D perception.

At another point in a different trip, the entity turned my vision completely black-and-white. This occurred when I was open-eyed and awake, not in their world. I just suddenly couldn't see color and everything was grayscale with stuff in my room distorted entirely. I don't really understand how that's possible, either. People see impossible shapes like tesseracts and such in there, too.

The distinction between "the brain is doing that" is still not much of a distinction to me, though. As I said earlier, when I stare at something in this base reality, my "brain is doing that" as well. The fact I can do a little DMT and objects in my room can change into other things makes me think all of this could be a "stable" hallucination, especially given that we endogenously produce DMT. Our brains are doing ALL of this.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: stareatclouds] * 1
    #28599467 - 12/27/23 07:11 AM (1 month, 17 hours ago)

Quote:

stareatclouds said:
... For instance, when I was in Hyperspace, the entity that was controlling the trip suddenly appeared ahead of me and behind me at the same time. That obviously isn't possible whatsoever and is very interesting. It was like a 4D object came own into my 3D perception. ....




Stop on that point, please - I think it is the core issue.

Consider that the entity fills your mental space in front of you during one moment.
Then you turn (taking a few moments to do so), and then the entity fills your mental space in front of you again.
If you check back then the entity is behind you again while still behind you (in front) as well.

MY proposition to you is that the entity, who can move at the speed of thought (instantaneously but actually in ~1/10th of a second), continues to resonate among active mental contents behind you while now resonating among mental contents in front of you.

I did an experiment on salvia: sitting on my swivelling office chair, I had a toke of salvia, and when the effects were strong I remembered to turn around in my chair 360 degrees.
This experience was totally mind blowing, because I had the distinct impression that I had a live vision connection to the world around me - 360 degree vision.

My explanation remains the same:
while really stoned, mental contents: including any sensation or vision or perception (including imagination) persist longer than 3/10 ths of a second, and up to 3 seconds (longer if recycling contents or looping).
The individual frames (up to 3/10ths of a second normally) stack up on top of each other and create the hyperdimensional cognitive world that we experience.

Frame stacking distorts both the sense of time passing as well as space itself. It creates interpretation errors for trajectories (like salvia gravity) and enables imagined forms to be superimposed onto real backgrounds, or remembered (or imagined) scenes to come alive around you in very convincing ways.

My avatar is a drawing I made of how it felt when I looked up while very stoned, I felt like I had several pairs of eyes and ears in the various positions as I raised my head, and the views from each of them converged in my "subjective" experience.

It is like trails but much more encompassing - very much like tesseracts: my moniker here "redgreenvines", represents the experiences that I have had of tesseract like spaces in which vine like branches simultaneously continued branching at 90 degrees to everything else in an astonishing way.


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Invisiblestareatclouds
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Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28599489 - 12/27/23 07:28 AM (1 month, 17 hours ago)

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "frame stacking" and I've Googled a bunch to no results. You mean if you're high, your perception is somehow slower or visuals persist in place longer than normal? I don't know, red.

In any event, I wasn't moving around or in control of my body whatsoever. I was in some void with an entity playing with me. I don't know what the "mental contents behind you" means either. Like physically a human can't perceive something behind him at all with full vision of it, much less while seeing something in front of him, haha.


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Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #28599497 - 12/27/23 07:36 AM (1 month, 17 hours ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
....What if thoughts work like that? What if ideas were actually living things, that exist in another dimension that we cannot perceive? What if the entities seen on DMT and Shrooms are those "living" ideas that can only be perceived during a Psychedelic Experience?




I like it.
That could be inspiration for a science fiction story. Almost like something from a Phillip K Dick book.


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Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28599498 - 12/27/23 07:37 AM (1 month, 17 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
This experience was totally mind blowing, because I had the distinct impression that I had a live vision connection to the world around me - 360 degree vision.




i call it "Google Street View" in an effort to relate to younger generations.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: stareatclouds]
    #28599499 - 12/27/23 07:37 AM (1 month, 17 hours ago)

not just that visuals persist, but lingering and layering occurs to every kind of sensation which becomes mental content as soon as you become aware of the sensation or dot of color or shape, or sound, or idea.

all of these are mental contents, and all of them are subject to slower fading when stoned.

if you have a swiveling chair, and you can safely turn around in it while on DMT, try that little experiment with eyes open and see what happens in your experience.

at break through levels and even below that, you should develop 360 degree vision capability.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #28599515 - 12/27/23 07:44 AM (1 month, 17 hours ago)

I think altered proprioceptive awareness in the individual during a psychedelics experience is meaningful. Our sense of physical orientation and differentiation is surely affected by the experience in a dose dependent manner.

Not to change the subject, but the brain is just a structure composed of cells, all of which are alive and have their own level of awareness. A living machine composed of living machines that is rich in fractal-like connections.


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Invisiblestareatclouds
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Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28599518 - 12/27/23 07:46 AM (1 month, 17 hours ago)

With breakthrough levels on DMT, you're unlikely to be able to function well enough to do that. During that experience, I was not connected to this reality in any form. My body was not under my control, either, and I had no idea where the hell it was anyway, haha. I was in some black void and certainly incapable of physically spinning around. My entire perception was overtaken by this entity, what I assume is the Jester. If I'm ever in the position to try that chair spin, I will, though. It sounds fun.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: stareatclouds]
    #28599535 - 12/27/23 08:02 AM (1 month, 17 hours ago)

Quote:

stareatclouds said:
With breakthrough levels on DMT, you're unlikely to be able to function well enough to do that. During that experience, I was not connected to this reality in any form. My body was not under my control, either, and I had no idea where the hell it was anyway, haha. I was in some black void and certainly incapable of physically spinning around. My entire perception was overtaken by this entity, what I assume is the Jester. If I'm ever in the position to try that chair spin, I will, though. It sounds fun.



somehow the entity got in front of you and behind you so you must have got turned around, or you would not say that, would you?

generally I do not advise moving when at full breakthrough,
but at close to this intensity, do try the swivel chair as it will help you to understand what I mean.

this is not nearly as complex as the laser beam experiments some fools are trying.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28599586 - 12/27/23 08:43 AM (1 month, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
this is not nearly as complex as the laser beam experiments some fools are trying.



Laughed so hard it hurt.
I've been following some of that on another forum, though as a lurker, I think the forum in question is moderated very, very poorly, but I still read much of the content and find myself face-palming responsively at it. The laser beam stuff is a great example.


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Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: stareatclouds] * 3
    #28599704 - 12/27/23 11:08 AM (1 month, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

stareatclouds said:
Quote:

Icon said:
It does align with my theory that the visuals are self-generated and the theme of the trip can be related to what emotions you feed into it. Like a blank page, it needs some kind of input to become something and then blossom into something greater or change based on thought-reactions to that initial seed. Reacting in fear can feed that emotion into the trip and steer the story, visuals, entity to a scary theme.

I think this can also explain some dud/blank/rejection experiences when someone does it without any intention behind it and a stubborn mind. I remember a couple times expecting DMT to be a guaranteed 4th of july every time, but it didn't actually work that way. I inhaled my milligrams and waited on the curb expecting to get picked up, but the ride never came. You need to place the call, metaphorically, to get it rolling with some mental momentum. And then be brave enough to get in when it comes to pick you up.




Plenty of people go into their trips with great intentions, positive attitude, submission to the experience, and nothing heavy in their life and get something very, very difficult. I've read plenty of reports of people going into the trip with serious emotions, such as thoughts of suicide, and having powerful trips that help them. So it doesn't seem to solely hinge on your expectations or what you're bringing into it.

This also doesn't explain the many reports containing specific visuals or entities that people haven't seen or heard of before.





Yea, it's not a very obvious and guaranteed result of being positive and having a positive trip, or negative having a negative one. But I think our emotional state and personality do play a role in a more complex way. Like a very happy and satisfied person might feel like they have more to lose, so they could be more susceptible to panicking if they feel like the rush is too much or think they've stopped breathing, then that fear manifests into a projection of them dying in some horrific way. While a depressed person can be very sensitive to pleasure from a colorful pattern that's going to be a more attractive direction to develop their curiosity and thoughts. Their apathy may help keep them from investing any worry in a scary outcome.

The same experience can be interpreted in different ways by different people. Being essentially locked in a dark void in the presence of a 4d entity may have been intimidating to you and that emotion can subconsciously limit the experience. Instead of just apprehension, had you reacted in fear like "oh no is it going to harm me", then your brain has no choice but to start imagining those scenarios. Or if someone in that situation reacted out of gratitude for being shrouded and protected by this being, perhaps they would start to imagine a healing or blessing experience.

The visuals being unique and unknown to us is a pretty cool trick but I think it's still self-generated. Every night we have the potential to manifest foreign scenes with separate entities that we deal cards to face down so we can play out a social interaction like a card game. But it's all dealt from the same deck, your deck. I think there are far more similarities between the experiences and our personalities than there are spontaneous, totally foreign concepts. The trickster is a common character archetype that many people describe encountering, although each manifests it in their own way. We don't all see the exact same entity which implies some personalization. And when people manifest a messianic experience it's always in their primary or secondary religion. We borrow from what we know.


Edited by Icon (12/27/23 11:53 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: Icon]
    #28599800 - 12/27/23 01:02 PM (1 month, 12 hours ago)

Good simple honest points 👍


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Invisiblestareatclouds
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Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: Nillion]
    #28600354 - 12/27/23 10:36 PM (1 month, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
somehow the entity got in front of you and behind you so you must have got turned around, or you would not say that, would you?




Haha nah, man, not at all. I was not able to move around anywhere because I wasn't experiencing anything in our base reality. I am pretty sure I was laying on my back, completely out of it on my bed. I was in some void of darkness with an entity doing all sorts of crazy shit. I took a relatively minor toke on my vape, held it for 10s, then exhaled. I instantly felt like something was very, very different from previous DMT hits.

I was at the edge of my bed on my knees, I think, trying to set my vape on the counter. My last thought in this reality was a sarcastic, "uh-oh" to myself, then boom! It felt like something collided with my head, or more like dove into it, jerking it to the right. At the same time, my vision went black. I didn't even really have time to process what happened because instantly after my vision goes black, I was forcefully yanked backwards, landing on my back. In the linear timeline, the story progresses with me in the dark, laying on my back, trying to get up while this thing holds me down.

In the consciousness timeline, I was in some void for most of this, with the entity fucking with me (likely the Jester). I "came to" in total darkness, but then it felt like a spotlight was shining on me. It was probably the scariest moment of my life, to be honest. Anyway, I'm assuming you understand now what I mean about not being in our reality or able to move around in a chair or anything.

So in Hyperspace, I wasn't moving around (had no body, I don't think). He also wasn't moving around me and there weren't 2 of them. He was just directly in front of me and directly behind me at the same time. And I could clearly see both vantage points simultaneously. I don't really know how else I can describe it, especially if you haven't done DMT. It is not something we are capable of imagining. I think it was 4D representation. It was wild.

Anyway, I'm still bummed you haven't tried the laser experiment yet. I need to bother some of the others I sent the lasers to. It's honestly kind of a trial and error situation to hit the right level of DMT where you're high enough to trigger it, but not too high that it's distracting.

Quote:

Nillion said:
Laughed so hard it hurt.

I've been following some of that on another forum, though as a lurker, I think the forum in question is moderated very, very poorly, but I still read much of the content and find myself face-palming responsively at it. The laser beam stuff is a great example.




The laser experiment is legit, though. It does indeed reveal code (and other things) when you get the right level of DMT and focus on the beam. It cracks me up that psychonauts are such turds that they can't build a $5 laser and play around with their DMT. Give it a try, brah.


Edited by stareatclouds (12/27/23 10:50 PM)


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: A New Theory for the DMT Entities? [Re: stareatclouds]
    #28600365 - 12/27/23 11:12 PM (1 month, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

stareatclouds said:
The laser experiment is legit, though. It does indeed reveal code (and other things) when you get the right level of DMT and focus on the beam. It cracks me up that psychonauts are such turds that they can't build a $5 laser and play around with their DMT. Give it a try, brah.



I've stared at lasers while tripping before. I think that is pretty common.

Take a photo of the laser beam the next time you see the code.
The code isn't there as the photo will demonstrate.


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