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OfflineRache2020
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Registered: 10/18/20
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Shrooms for anxiety or no?
    #28419839 - 08/03/23 11:17 PM (5 months, 22 days ago)

I get anxiety now after a bereavement last year and taking shrooms-I know you're not supposed to take them in a bad state of mind but I didn't see myself ever feeling better so I took a medium dose (20-30 libs) a couple times around 3 months after the loss.

I didn't really enjoy the trips-had some fractals but nothing "magical" or even interesting, so that added to the depression of being on them expecting something amazing to happen and sod all did! I also freaked out a a bit at one point because I felt vaguely nauseous and hot so my brain naturally went "you're gonna end up calling an ambulance"-I guess fear of losing control is a BIG issue of mine, and that's where the anxiety stems from. It's funny because I've never had a lot of pain to deal with, or even been in hospital (I've been really lucky so far) so I have no reason to believe I will end up horribly unwell or go crazy in my everyday life.

But since then I can panic at the slightest thing-if I get heartburn I think I'll end up having to call an ambulance. It's like any slight deviance from my bassline makes me panic that I'm going to end up in pain or go crazy...so my idea was to take shrooms and get used to a "different" state of being so I don't panic so much the rest of the time. But I don't know if it's the shrooms that caused this anxiety and existential dread in the first place or not...I can't really pinpoint when it happened exactly but sometime in the last year I guess.

I just don't want to fuck up my fragile mental state even worse, plus there's psychosis in the family...although I've never lost contact with reality myself, I'm just worried it'll lead to that eventually if I freak myself out enough.

It's getting towards that time of year again and I don't know whether to risk it or not. It's just that atm it feels like life is a trip I can't handle...


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Offlinebutterflydawn
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Re: Shrooms for anxiety or no? [Re: Rache2020]
    #28419952 - 08/04/23 02:05 AM (5 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Rache2020 said:
I just don't want to fuck up my fragile mental state even worse, plus there's psychosis in the family...





The thing is it's not a good idea to take psychedelics regarding your situation with the family health history. Even though classic psychedelics might help with anxiety, I think in your case and in most cases you should take them with a professional therapist if you are looking for a medicinal benefit.

Just my 2 cents though.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Shrooms for anxiety or no? [Re: Rache2020] * 1
    #28419977 - 08/04/23 03:03 AM (5 months, 22 days ago)

@ rache2020,

last year I remember writing to you about shifting your attention to breathing
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28043002#28043002

you probably want to schedule some breath awareness every day for at least a week before letting chemistry do its thing as you just react to the universe. which is how everyone exists in this society - we become automatons reacting to hunger, stimulation, advertising, temptations... react react react.

doing some breath awareness (any kind that is relaxing) breaks the chain.

this small push back (breath awareness effort) is like magic.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineSocrateshroom
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Re: Shrooms for anxiety or no? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28420011 - 08/04/23 04:10 AM (5 months, 21 days ago)

The idea you have is sound: “Do something that challenges your comfort”.

But shrooms might not be the way. Yes they are great at making one face themselves and learn how to handle discomfort. But because they also can make you lose touch with reality temporarily, there can be unintended consequences.

I’d say do something else to remove yourself from your comfort zone. Or, if you must, just take a smaller dose.


--------------------


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OfflineSoul Flight
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Re: Shrooms for anxiety or no? [Re: Socrateshroom]
    #28420360 - 08/04/23 11:07 AM (5 months, 21 days ago)

Maybe microdosing would work for anxiety. And when I say microdosing I mean unnoticeable and undetectable levels. I think around 0.25 grams every other day and maybe take a week break in between.

I know for sure around 3 to 8 grams causes extreme anxiety for 3 to 6 hours and full blown panic attacks. I am able to ride it out but I am white knuckling and begging the universe to let me survive. Over 3 grams causes extreme agitation and restlessness. Eyes are darting. Body cannot stop moving any muscle or limb or appendage. Constant wiggling and pacing and wriggling. Thoughts are scattered. There is no comfort in any song or media. I cannot bear my eyes open or closed. Everything is a hallucination. Heart is racing. Chest is squeezed.

I also feel my anxiety is possibly increasing with age or maybe just with psychedelic usage. I suspect I lived in an atheist materialist reductionist fantasy world prior to psychedelics. I now live in a wonderful integrated magical cosmic world but it is a very vulnerable world. The psychedelics reveal an uncertain chaotic world. But I find peace in truth and reality. I had a false peace with all my old dogmas and paradigms.

Be well :smile:


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: Shrooms for anxiety or no? [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28420450 - 08/04/23 12:31 PM (5 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Soul Flight said:
I know for sure around 3 to 8 grams causes extreme anxiety for 3 to 6 hours and full blown panic attacks. I am able to ride it out but I am white knuckling and begging the universe to let me survive. Over 3 grams causes extreme agitation and restlessness. Eyes are darting. Body cannot stop moving any muscle or limb or appendage. Constant wiggling and pacing and wriggling. Thoughts are scattered. There is no comfort in any song or media. I cannot bear my eyes open or closed. Everything is a hallucination. Heart is racing. Chest is squeezed.

I also feel my anxiety is possibly increasing with age or maybe just with psychedelic usage. I suspect I lived in an atheist materialist reductionist fantasy world prior to psychedelics. I now live in a wonderful integrated magical cosmic world but it is a very vulnerable world. The psychedelics reveal an uncertain chaotic world. But I find peace in truth and reality. I had a false peace with all my old dogmas and paradigms.

Be well :smile:




To an extent, I feel that if 3 grams causes anxiety, 1.5 grams or less can provide a bit of an 'inoculation' against anxiety - it gives someone a tiny taste of it, without being uncontrollable.

Anxiety can be used as a benchmark for dosing. The deepest insights require a dose that also causes anxiety. It can be what restricts the use of higher doses.

By the same token, after a too-intense experience, a small dose can feel breezy in comparison.


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Offlinenewaccounts
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Re: Shrooms for anxiety or no? [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28420479 - 08/04/23 12:46 PM (5 months, 21 days ago)

I recommend ice bath three times a week. I think it has benefits that will also improve the chance of you having positive experiences with psychedelics.

That and breath work.


Edited by newaccounts (08/04/23 12:47 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Shrooms for anxiety or no? [Re: newaccounts]
    #28420549 - 08/04/23 01:46 PM (5 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

newaccounts said:
I recommend ice bath three times a week. I think it has benefits that will also improve the chance of you having positive experiences with psychedelics.

That and breath work.



Please back that up with some pictures of yourself in the ice bath over a period of at least a couple of weeks and I might consider it.



Anxiety is not caused by dosage, it is a cognitive reflex to something being experienced in an exaggerated way while stoned, and you get more of that exaggeration when very stoned, and it is different for everyone.

And like any cognitive reflex, sometimes it kicks in and sometimes it does not -  same as sometimes you do not remember someone's name.

The dosage increases the resonant duration of any mental content, and this supports re-triggering of thought loops as well as weird physical feelings that seem to drag through your guts or muscles.

And all that pacing etc. is an attempt at self soothing kicking in reflexively in re-triggered loops because of persistent discomforts that really would have just been tiny little bothers, i.e. had they not been made to last 3 seconds each (and then loop incessantly) instead of just 1/4 second (with no loop)...

However, if you manage to observe all your fleeting mental contents (including sensations and visuals...) and how they seem sustained (timewise) and slowly fading, then you can be pleasantly buoyed up by the oceanic feeling of psychedelic mind which, for some, is a direct connection to one-ness, although it is very sensual and full of prana, i.e. perceived energies. All at the same dose, and it can happen that way at a lower dose too.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineRache2020
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Registered: 10/18/20
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Re: Shrooms for anxiety or no? [Re: newaccounts]
    #28421129 - 08/04/23 09:30 PM (5 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

butterflydawn said:
Quote:

Rache2020 said:
I just don't want to fuck up my fragile mental state even worse, plus there's psychosis in the family...





The thing is it's not a good idea to take psychedelics regarding your situation with the family health history. Even though classic psychedelics might help with anxiety, I think in your case and in most cases you should take them with a professional therapist if you are looking for a medicinal benefit.

Just my 2 cents though.




Yeh that's why I've always stayed away from pot because we think that's what triggered my brothers psychosis so I believe there is a predisposition there. Good idea about the professional therapist though-I hadn't thought of it in that context. I'm still deciding on whether to get a therapist or not anyway-did I mention it takes me ages to make decisions as well...

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
@ rache2020,

last year I remember writing to you about shifting your attention to breathing
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28043002#28043002

you probably want to schedule some breath awareness every day for at least a week before letting chemistry do its thing as you just react to the universe. which is how everyone exists in this society - we become automatons reacting to hunger, stimulation, advertising, temptations... react react react.

doing some breath awareness (any kind that is relaxing) breaks the chain.

this small push back (breath awareness effort) is like magic.




Oh yes thank you for the reminder, I probably already made at least 2 other similar type threads on depression and anxiety. I'll go look back over them. Is it a form of meditation just focused on breathing? I've been meaning to meditate more anyway.


Quote:

Socrateshroom said:
The idea you have is sound: “Do something that challenges your comfort”.

But shrooms might not be the way. Yes they are great at making one face themselves and learn how to handle discomfort. But because they also can make you lose touch with reality temporarily, there can be unintended consequences.

I’d say do something else to remove yourself from your comfort zone. Or, if you must, just take a smaller dose.




Yeh exactly-get used to being out of my comfort zone physically type thing. I think I would definitely take smaller amounts next time and build up so I get used to the feeling. I really waited too long to take them, should've done all this when I was 20 and in a better state of mind.

I actually took morning glory seeds around that age and puked my guts up and don't remember panicking back then. That's probably the last time I was sick as well so I know I have a strong stomach but the fear of throwing up is real now. Would it be cheating to rely on having some benzos handy or some anti-nausea meds?

Quote:

Soul Flight said:
Maybe microdosing would work for anxiety. And when I say microdosing I mean unnoticeable and undetectable levels. I think around 0.25 grams every other day and maybe take a week break in between.

I know for sure around 3 to 8 grams causes extreme anxiety for 3 to 6 hours and full blown panic attacks. I am able to ride it out but I am white knuckling and begging the universe to let me survive. Over 3 grams causes extreme agitation and restlessness. Eyes are darting. Body cannot stop moving any muscle or limb or appendage. Constant wiggling and pacing and wriggling. Thoughts are scattered. There is no comfort in any song or media. I cannot bear my eyes open or closed. Everything is a hallucination. Heart is racing. Chest is squeezed.

I also feel my anxiety is possibly increasing with age or maybe just with psychedelic usage. I suspect I lived in an atheist materialist reductionist fantasy world prior to psychedelics. I now live in a wonderful integrated magical cosmic world but it is a very vulnerable world. The psychedelics reveal an uncertain chaotic world. But I find peace in truth and reality. I had a false peace with all my old dogmas and paradigms.

Be well :smile:




What would be the equivalent in numbers of libs? I know it varies because of size etc. but generally? Yeh I don't think I could handle a stronger trip  right now at all. That sounds pretty scary what you've been through, but worth it if you're strong enough mentally.

Quote:

newaccounts said:
I recommend ice bath three times a week. I think it has benefits that will also improve the chance of you having positive experiences with psychedelics.

That and breath work.




Oh god that sounds horrible! I'll look into it though. I know an ice bath is good for the muscles, didn't know it had other potential effects.

Quote:

And all that pacing etc. is an attempt at self soothing kicking in reflexively in re-triggered loops because of persistent discomforts that really would have just been tiny little bothers, i.e. had they not been made to last 3 seconds each (and then loop incessantly) instead of just 1/4 second (with no loop)...




That's kind of how I feel about life in general, I get hyper focused on a slight pain, heartburn, panicked feeling etc. and then instead of waiting for it to pass I panic that it'll get worse. I feel SO vulnerable in this world, if I'm in pain no one is gonna know or care or experience what I'm experiencing. They will just stand around watching me losing it. It's just terrifying, and I know we're all in the same boat obviously I'm just hyper aware of it all the time. Gotta love that existential depression!


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OfflineShiroiTora
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Re: Shrooms for anxiety or no? [Re: Rache2020]
    #28421165 - 08/04/23 09:52 PM (5 months, 21 days ago)

Mushrooms work at any dose for depression, but high doses are the only ones that work for anxiety. Psilohuasca I've actually found to be most helpful with anxiety, but that is a rough and extended duration trip, not for everyone.

OP if you are concerned about the family history and such, ashwagandha is more effective than any mushrooms I've ever taken for anxiety, 100%. Just keep taking it till it works(about 10 days for me) and don't stop abruptly. It also goes really nicely with tripping if you feel ready having taken the ashwagandha for a few weeks.


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Registered: 05/30/21
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Re: Shrooms for anxiety or no? [Re: Rache2020]
    #28421251 - 08/04/23 11:43 PM (5 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Rache2020 said:
That's kind of how I feel about life in general, I get hyper focused on a slight pain, heartburn, panicked feeling etc. and then instead of waiting for it to pass I panic that it'll get worse. I feel SO vulnerable in this world, if I'm in pain no one is gonna know or care or experience what I'm experiencing. They will just stand around watching me losing it. It's just terrifying, and I know we're all in the same boat obviously I'm just hyper aware of it all the time. Gotta love that existential depression!




I'm no doctor, but this sounds like OCD-type thoughts. I'm not speaking from medical expertise but as someone who has been diagnosed as OCD and had it get bad at various times in life (while it improves a lot in others). I say this not to diagnose a condition but to point to common anxiety type and how I've dealt with it in the past.

Basically, thoughts will start feeling like they're moving on their own, in the sense that you realize there's this feeling of dread about some issue and you can't reason with it. E.g., in your example, you are aware that you are experiencing a minor pain - but suddenly you can't stop focusing on it, and it (beyond rationality) becomes a stronger pain.

Essentially it is panic pingponging off of panic, getting worse the more involved and intense the thought is. So the first pain is not so bad, but the worry about the pain getting bad is much worse, because you now are more intensely concentrating on the anxiety.

At this point, the mind starts to play a game where it attempts to break down and minimize the anxiety. But this sort of 'direct attack' on it makes it worse by engaging the mind even more - now one has pain, plus worry about the pain, plus worry about the obsessive thought structure behind that worry - creating a kind of recursion of anxieities, an ability for a small anxiety to transform into a large one.

The ways to combat this are, first, by reality checking. One can tell with a little reason that one probably isn't in genuine danger from a small amount of pain. One can use reason to extinguish the initial anxiety. But this doesn't work fully since some of the worry will remain even if fully logically debunked. The other way to combat it is by a kind of meditation, where one accepts the problem for how it is. One can't extinguish the thought nor attack it, and those things make it more powerful. One can however acknowledge and accept the thought - and only from that point can one move on from it.

I guess I make this post overall to give the general advice to try to get around these clusters of obsessions/anxieties. If you grab on and worry about the thought, it deepens the problem. You have to try to get around the feeling altogether - by meditating, by acknowledgement of the feeling, by moving on to something else, which is only possible by disengaging.


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Offlinenewaccounts
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Re: Shrooms for anxiety or no? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28421399 - 08/05/23 04:59 AM (5 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

newaccounts said:
I recommend ice bath three times a week. I think it has benefits that will also improve the chance of you having positive experiences with psychedelics.

That and breath work.



Please back that up with some pictures of yourself in the ice bath over a period of at least a couple of weeks and I might consider it.





Not going to out myself like that at this point. Maybe in the future when I am closer to retirement. :smile:

To OP: Yes, it feels horrible. But it also feels good in some weird way. There is good science that it increases important neurotransmitters and sustain them at a higher level (compared to activities that "pump and dump" them).

It feels horrible getting into the water and staying in. For it to be beneficial you have to be able to relax into that comfort. It is really challenging but I believe it has rewards that translate into a lot of areas in your life.


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OfflineSoul Flight
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Re: Shrooms for anxiety or no? [Re: Rache2020]
    #28421672 - 08/05/23 10:17 AM (5 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Rache2020 said:
Quote:

butterflydawn said:
Quote:

Rache2020 said:

What would be the equivalent in numbers of libs? I know it varies because of size etc. but generally? Yeh I don't think I could handle a stronger trip  right now at all. That sounds pretty scary what you've been through, but worth it if you're strong enough mentally.

!




What is a lib? Liberty caps?


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OfflineSoul Flight
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Re: Shrooms for anxiety or no? [Re: Soul Flight]
    #28421896 - 08/05/23 01:36 PM (5 months, 20 days ago)

In addition to my post above about extreme anxiety and agitation on 3 to 8 grams, it is mostly for the 3 hour "come up" or "body load." Hours 4 to 6 are more insightful and seem like nirvana or satori. Lessons are learned. In hours 4 to 6 you might get some solutions to your general anxiety. But these lessons are lost over 6 to 12 months later. We get sucked back into illusions and our bad habits. But I would not recommend hours 1 to 3 for someone who already has anxiety.


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: Shrooms for anxiety or no? [Re: ShiroiTora]
    #28421904 - 08/05/23 01:48 PM (5 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

ShiroiTora said:
Mushrooms work at any dose for depression, but high doses are the only ones that work for anxiety. Psilohuasca I've actually found to be most helpful with anxiety, but that is a rough and extended duration trip, not for everyone.

OP if you are concerned about the family history and such, ashwagandha is more effective than any mushrooms I've ever taken for anxiety, 100%. Just keep taking it till it works(about 10 days for me) and don't stop abruptly. It also goes really nicely with tripping if you feel ready having taken the ashwagandha for a few weeks.




I'm just getting into ashwagandha again - why is it you recommend not stopping abruptly? Is there a minor withdrawal? Would you recommend tapering off?

I find it works very well when taken a few days in a row but I have to stop after a little while. It's a strange drug because it seems to be capable of being both a stimulant and anxiolytic. If I take it too many days in a row at too high a dose, it makes me a bit antsy. But the right dose seems to make me less anxious, so there's a definite balance.

The mechanism of action is on hormones - it targets the stress hormone cortisol. This can make one less capable of being anxious - at the same time, there are downstream effects that result in an increase in androgens, eg testosterone - which I imagine is associated with some of its benefits but also its possible drawbacks, in terms of the fact that some feel irritable on it.

I wanted to ask for more info because I always found it better to cycle - taking it 1-5 days then off. I find that because it acts on the hormones, some of the downstream effects can be felt days after ceasing it.

It's not a straightforward anxiolyitic - I'd say its success more depends on the state of the body as a whole, which is why they call it an adaptogen. I would guess it's best in combination with a more straightforward anxiolytic.


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OfflineRache2020
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Re: Shrooms for anxiety or no? [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28422458 - 08/05/23 10:00 PM (5 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

ShiroiTora said:
Mushrooms work at any dose for depression, but high doses are the only ones that work for anxiety. Psilohuasca I've actually found to be most helpful with anxiety, but that is a rough and extended duration trip, not for everyone.

OP if you are concerned about the family history and such, ashwagandha is more effective than any mushrooms I've ever taken for anxiety, 100%. Just keep taking it till it works(about 10 days for me) and don't stop abruptly. It also goes really nicely with tripping if you feel ready having taken the ashwagandha for a few weeks.




Oh thank you I'll look into ashwaganha-I think I can get hold of that. I've not heard of Psilohuasca-I assume it's not legal though?! I have trouble getting hold of anything other than liberty caps since they grow in the UK, unfortunately I don't have any "connections" for anything else. I'd also love to go to some retreat or shaman and have a spiritual experience, I don't know how feasible that is though.

@CreonAntigone

Wow that was insightful! I didn't even mention I have OCD as well since that's like the least of my worries (or so I thought) but yeh now you mention it, could all be connected. I only really do excessive hand washing, and I like things lined up straight. It was worse when I was a kid constantly checking things and counting but I don't really do that anymore. I didn't think about it being anything to do with my anxiety-food for thought! Thank you for the tips as well they are so helpful.

@Soul Flight yes liberty caps sorry! I have taken 30 at the most, they were pretty small though. I know weighing is more accurate-maybe I'll get a decent scale next time for a better idea of how much I'm taking. I don't think I could handle anxiety on top of the anxiety I get as it is when not even high-but maybe after trying some of the tips and advice the good people of this forum have given me I'll be in a better frame of mind later on.


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OfflineRache2020
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Re: Shrooms for anxiety or no? [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28422468 - 08/05/23 10:02 PM (5 months, 20 days ago)

I should add I've never officially been diagnosed with OCD I'm just pretty sure I have it.


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OfflineShiroiTora
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Re: Shrooms for anxiety or no? [Re: Rache2020]
    #28422582 - 08/05/23 11:25 PM (5 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

I'm just getting into ashwagandha again - why is it you recommend not stopping abruptly? Is there a minor withdrawal? Would you recommend tapering off?




OK so my warning about stopping abruptly is because I ran out at some point and my thyroid really fucked out for a couple of weeks(mostly just swelling/pressure, no bulging eyes, metabolic issues or other "hormonal" crap thank god), though I was busy quitting caffeine at the time so there is a BIG confounding factor in my case with regards to my cortisol levels(I have since recovered completely, though I don't use caffeine or ashwagandha anymore). I took it just as you describe, but I've seen it stays in one's system for quite a while, only getting thyroid symptoms after 6 days off(it was completely unexpected). In the time since I found out a bit more about ashwagandha from an ayurvedic practitioner, and she says it is a plant that enjoys constant, lowish dose usage(makes sense as hormones have much slower cycles than neurotransmitters). I also would advise against extracts if you are getting antsy, just the pure ground root gave me just a constant feeling that there was a thick heavy blanket over everything and everyone I interacted with, really nice, I felt like I was a child again(wrt anxiety at least:lol:)

I want to try Rhodiola rosea though, I've ordered 300g and it should be arriving next week. I think it sounds like more my style, especially now since I quit caffeine, I need all the mental energy I can get(been drinking caffeine daily since I was 10, only above 400mg/day in the last 5 years thankfully), and that "blanket" feels less necessary now that I'm not caffeinated all the time.

Quote:

Oh thank you I'll look into ashwaganha-I think I can get hold of that. I've not heard of Psilohuasca-I assume it's not legal though?! I have trouble getting hold of anything other than liberty caps since they grow in the UK, unfortunately I don't have any "connections" for anything else. I'd also love to go to some retreat or shaman and have a spiritual experience, I don't know how feasible that is though.




Here is a link to a guy that does it legally in the Netherlands. Apparently truffles and Syrian rue are completely legal there, but mushrooms and normal ayahuasca are illegal. This guy sounds pretty legit, I agree with his philosophies and stuff, perhaps you might want to look into a guided trip.


Edited by ShiroiTora (08/05/23 11:30 PM)


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OfflineRache2020
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Re: Shrooms for anxiety or no? [Re: ShiroiTora]
    #28422596 - 08/05/23 11:43 PM (5 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:


Here is a link to a guy that does it legally in the Netherlands. Apparently truffles and Syrian rue are completely legal there, but mushrooms and normal ayahuasca are illegal. This guy sounds pretty legit, I agree with his philosophies and stuff, perhaps you might want to look into a guided trip.




Thank you, I'll check that link out later. Just on the ashwagandha-I looked into it a little bit and seems it has an effect on dreaming as well? I'm super interested in lucid dreaming so if it helps with that (or vivid dreams) that will be an absolute bonus. Did you happen to notice any difference in your dream recall? I'm defo gonna order some now anyway.


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: Shrooms for anxiety or no? [Re: ShiroiTora]
    #28423368 - 08/06/23 05:04 PM (5 months, 19 days ago)

Quote:

ShiroiTora said:
I want to try Rhodiola rosea though, I've ordered 300g and it should be arriving next week. I think it sounds like more my style, especially now since I quit caffeine, I need all the mental energy I can get(been drinking caffeine daily since I was 10, only above 400mg/day in the last 5 years thankfully), and that "blanket" feels less necessary now that I'm not caffeinated all the time.




That's one I did research on in the past. I don't know if you're aware, but it's been tested and confirmed to have MAOI effects - might make it pretty effective for increasing energy, but of course it might have a potential reaction with other substances.

Given what you say about using rue though, I know you're more than familiar with MAOIs. I'd be curous to hear if you notice a MAOI effect it, comparable to the psychoactivity of rue.


Edited by CreonAntigone (08/06/23 05:45 PM)


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