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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
The Principles of Approbation
    #28413503 - 07/30/23 04:43 AM (5 months, 27 days ago)

Have you ever considered the idea of an internal judge, like an imaginary spectator, that shapes your sense of what's right and how you value your choices? I came across this concept while reading about approbation and the role of a personal arbiter in evaluating our actions. It suggests that we have this internal arbiter which influences our feelings of self applause or shame based on its decisions. The idea that a personal spectator is a reference point for judgment and approbation.

It's interesting that we might refer to this inner judge when seeking approval for our actions, as it takes into account more than just the outcomes we intend. This personal arbiter seems to prioritise factors like the experience, potential knowledge gained, personal growth, and maintaining a positive outlook. This idea really resonates with me, especially when I think about a recent personal experience, a trip where I set out to explore a creek for fossilised wood but didn't find any. Even though I didn't achieve my original goal, I still found the journey valuable because I saw the importance of the experience itself and the potential of the knowledge I gained, and it also allowed for self discovery and an appreciation of nature.

It's like my internal judge approved of the decision to go on the journey, valuing the experience and potential learning over just focusing on the intended outcome.

This understanding has led me to be more thoughtful of decisions, in considering long term benefits and personal growth rather than just fixating on immediate results.

Regarding the specific process of enacting actions that the imagined arbiter would find commendable or praiseworthy, I'm not yet entirely sure, but it seems like these actions are driven by our sense of what's right and our moral principles, our individual sense of propriety. When we see our actions as praiseworthy from the imagined arbiter's perspective, it suggests that they align with our own moral values.

There are probably several factors that play a role, like having a strong sense of doing the right thing, being able to understand and care about others, forming habits, considering social expectations, and feeling good about ourselves when we act in virtuous ways. Though I haven't figured out all the details, it's clear that in these regards our personal arbiter has a big say in guiding us towards actions that match our values and what we believe is right.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Principles of Approbation [Re: sudly]
    #28413527 - 07/30/23 05:35 AM (5 months, 27 days ago)

my internal judge process only operates in deliberate suspension. ⚖️
everything else proceeds by reflex.

even the internal judge is reflexive in nature, but it respects quiet, balanced accounts,  and the sustainability of outcomes, we do not hold our breaths when it comes to this judge, and we never plead the judgement.

separate from this austere court of mind, the fun house court of my mind has every relative I have ever met taking the stage with their opinionated and distorted reflections, and that reflexive scenario is my normal everyday self.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: The Principles of Approbation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28414655 - 07/31/23 01:13 AM (5 months, 26 days ago)

I would say that I think the arbiter has more use as a planner of future actions rather than immediate ones, setting a kind of foundational decision to pursue the intended outcome with recognition of potential progress beyond the present.

That said, the idea of the internal arbiter becomes more intriguing its operation in both conscious deliberation and reflexive actions is explored. It seems to suggest that our internal judge is not always in complete control of our responses, particularly during automatic, instinctive reactions. The relationship between the arbiter and reflexive actions could suggest that its influence might be more pronounced when we engage in deliberate suspension, considering "quiet, balanced accounts, and the sustainability of outcomes," as a guiding principle.

Viewing the arbiter as a planner of future actions aligns with the notion that it operates thoughtfully, especially when we contemplate the long term implications of our choices. It would appear to play a significant role in guiding our decision making process, laying a foundation for pursuing intended outcomes while keeping an eye on potential progress beyond the immediate results.

This perspective presents the arbiter as a guiding force for our future actions, encouraging us to consider not only the present but also the long term benefits and personal growth. By accounting for the sustainability of outcomes, the arbiter could be suggested to act as a wise advisor, nudging us towards decisions that align with our values and broader aspirations.

On the other hand, the presence of reflexive actions could be said to highlight that our internal judge does not always have full control over our responses, especially in instinctive moments. These reflexive actions might be influenced by a mix of external and internal factors, leading us to act without conscious contemplation.

I think the interplay between the arbiter's thoughtful judgments and reflexive actions introduces an intriguing balance in our decision making. While the arbiter provides a framework for more considered choices, the reflexive actions remind us that not all responses are entirely within our conscious control. I think this dynamic can add depth to the concept of the internal arbiter, revealing further the complexities of human decision making and the various elements that shape our behavior. :thumbup:


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Principles of Approbation [Re: sudly]
    #28414728 - 07/31/23 04:31 AM (5 months, 26 days ago)

what I was trying to say, is there is no separate internal arbiter, but that the arbiter process is the same as the deliberative process, i.e. when we spend time reviewing the case without acting. by reviewing the case, details of the matter fills short term memory (aka working memory / aka recent cortical activation) and becomes a survey of the terrain.
How we feel about the whole matter is then at the most fair it can be.
This is the best time to take action. internally informed action comes from this deliberation / arbitration.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: The Principles of Approbation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28415737 - 08/01/23 01:23 AM (5 months, 25 days ago)

Well, if setting my sights on a future goal from a minute to a month away is not solely upon the end point, my present deliberation is better off when the goal is more expansive than a single end point, not for shame or sucess, but for it having value.

So I think the process of working towards a future goal is valuable in itself, regardless of whether you achieve the exact end point you initially envisioned. And being mindful of this is valuable in itself, at least to me.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Principles of Approbation [Re: sudly]
    #28415815 - 08/01/23 05:46 AM (5 months, 25 days ago)

a goal or destination, is just one point along the way which continues beyond any arbitrary goals.

You are right to have allusions to sustainability for a wider set of impacts. Obtaining the wider view is the essence of deliberation.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: The Principles of Approbation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28417948 - 08/02/23 09:52 PM (5 months, 23 days ago)

The more I introspect, the more I find it to be internal judges, plural. Often they are in conflict with one another.


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"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Principles of Approbation [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #28418224 - 08/03/23 04:47 AM (5 months, 23 days ago)

how about following the breath and letting your senses speak to you all at once together without judgement or concern about the meaning of each signal.


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: The Principles of Approbation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28419888 - 08/04/23 12:17 AM (5 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
how about following the breath and letting your senses speak to you all at once together without judgement or concern about the meaning of each signal.




Feelings of guilt, sadness, anger, happiness, anticipation-- I had to dispatch someone at the office today. Letting all of the senses speak was so difficult that I quickly had to stop. The second time I actually fell asleep in about 10 seconds. Both unexpected but good reactions. I will try this some more.


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"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: The Principles of Approbation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28423608 - 08/06/23 09:26 PM (5 months, 19 days ago)

What are the syllables of our decision makin process.

I don't feel agitated by much at all in my life currently.

From financial losses to savings success. Through changed plans and casual dating.

From not immediately receiving an interview, to opportunity in the future.

The most agitating thing I've experienced in what feels like forever, is that I bought a second hand steel string guitar from a professional store only to have it turn out to be acoustically unplayable due to the truss rod and guitar’s neck.

I drove an hour there and back again to have it serviced but it wasn't fixed. I thought it was better in the store but I didn't play it in there. I strummed a bit but didn't play in the store. I haven't played the guitar infront of more than a single person before. But I'm only kind of grasping the idea now after having gone through that experience.

I can remember everything that I did in a greater than the whole kind of way where I'm focused on what I learnt from my previous experiences. To suggest I can live through my own experiences after they have already happened. But knowing that those memories I'm living through aren't happening right before me. That I am experiencing my memories, but that they are not all accurate reflections of the environment around me, or that they accurately characterise my surroundings in any present moment.

That I can take from my previous experiences and acknowledge them in an overwhelming and total kind of way.

And I am still trying to practice moderation to build the chance of taking a grasp on future opportunities. It's gotten me this far.

I don't want to play guitar in the store, because as a self taught player it can sometimes take a lot of time to be able to get in and find the rhythm of a song I like to play, or that I can play. I make them up, I don't follow the readings of any written song. I play them by ear, and learn along the way.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The Principles of Approbation [Re: sudly]
    #28424078 - 08/07/23 10:24 AM (5 months, 19 days ago)

Long time ago I played an instrumental song I wrote in a guitar store and a little kid was watching. I struggled through it making mistakes like I often do. When I was done I looked up and the kid had this big grin on his face "Wow mister!".


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Principles of Approbation [Re: Rahz]
    #28424137 - 08/07/23 10:57 AM (5 months, 19 days ago)

I was playing with my pocket synthesizer for an hour this morning with a three year old.
we are just into it for the peculiar noise. (it did not cost very mush money)



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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The Principles of Approbation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28424147 - 08/07/23 11:03 AM (5 months, 19 days ago)

Have you heard of the Otamatone? They're cheap and I bet a 3 year old would love it.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Principles of Approbation [Re: Rahz]
    #28424156 - 08/07/23 11:08 AM (5 months, 19 days ago)

that looks really cool!
but the pocket operator
synths are a bit more flexible, they can use any voice, like vocoder synths with built in 16 slot sequencers.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Edited by redgreenvines (08/07/23 11:17 AM)


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: The Principles of Approbation [Re: Rahz]
    #28425237 - 08/08/23 04:20 AM (5 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Long time ago I played an instrumental song I wrote in a guitar store and a little kid was watching. I struggled through it making mistakes like I often do. When I was done I looked up and the kid had this big grin on his face "Wow mister!".




Today I went back to the store and played multiple guitars to see what acoustic feedback they had to my playing. I hadn't done it before because the first time I bought one I had 0 issues and it was very playable. I didn't bother to test it.

This time I knew what to do, said I originally thought it felt odd to play in the store, but then sat down and went for it because I was fed up with the previous situation.

After 2 mistakes of not thoroughly testing what I was purchasing, I went back and handled it well and am much happier with my new selection.

All a part of retaining from some learning process.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Principles of Approbation [Re: sudly]
    #28425259 - 08/08/23 04:54 AM (5 months, 18 days ago)

effective consumerism - success at the hunt - or foraging -> dopamine time!


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The Principles of Approbation [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #28425577 - 08/08/23 10:32 AM (5 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:

Have you heard of the Otamatone?




I can play some fun frisky tunes on the Obamatone!



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OfflineCory Duchesne
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Re: The Principles of Approbation [Re: sudly]
    #28425793 - 08/08/23 02:15 PM (5 months, 18 days ago)

I noticed I found emotional pain in the word 'you'. It's the second person sense, the sense of one being spied on or looked at or stared at. I much prefer the pronoun "I", and try to clean my sense of me which gets polluted by the word 'you'.  From the word you, all the world's pollution flows into one's sense of self. Ego is spectacle, the sense of being watched. Whose watching?  Who says what about who?  I can only be me, and it's not dependent on the entrainment that comes through a you-turn. Are you _____ ?  Whatever you put there, there's pain in the sense of being stared at or watched. Man ridicules, scorns and emits his pain when asked about his internal state. Some don't like being asked how they are feeling, obviously I don't completely know and it's a 'that's none of your business' gut reaction.


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C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know."

"I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung

Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti

"All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]


Edited by Cory Duchesne (08/08/23 02:16 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: The Principles of Approbation [Re: Cory Duchesne]
    #28425858 - 08/08/23 03:08 PM (5 months, 17 days ago)

Most people don't pay attention to you in a public setting. They're busy focusing on I too. I'm not talking about the spectacle of being watched or the spotlight effect.

I'm referring to what potential path the echo chamber of reflection and decision making takes to lead us to our intended long term goals. Given here that a week is a long term goal to me.

What I'm finding is that I am able to moderate addictions through buffered availability.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineCory Duchesne
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Re: The Principles of Approbation [Re: sudly]
    #28425887 - 08/08/23 03:42 PM (5 months, 17 days ago)

Quote:

I'm referring to what potential path the echo chamber of reflection and decision making takes to lead us to our intended long term goals




I found that as my long term plans formed in my mind, I became more irritable to things that seemed like a hazardous nuisance. I became more irritable to what seemed to be distractions or anyone staring to close at me. I try to learn from children, but in most cases, the reactions of children tell me exactly what it's like to be me, which is, I'm not too fond of being stared at, questioned, interrupted, etc.

What are the 5 basic human rights in Canada?
Human rights
the right to: life, liberty and personal security. a fair trial, that respects all your legal rights. ...
freedom of: conscience and religion. thought, belief, opinion and expression. ...
freedom to: join groups. hold peaceful meetings.
protection from: unreasonable search or seizure.

The need to clean and do chores, blows down the ego. Ego as it relates to garbage and cleaning. Root of being clean. Calendar and time. I would say to Krishnamurti, don’t forget late Sunday Monday, narrow time, trash goes out to curb, part of doing chores is paying attention to calendar and time, garbage truck to the ego. Full blast.

I keep a list of about 10 things I have no choice to deal with, it's not pleasant!  Those 10 things destroy me, but they are also connected to the springs of motivation. I was more motivated when I was young. I don't recommend cannabis/tobacco smoking, it makes it hard to participate with other people in the chores, and then when it's time for enjoyment, one can be out of sync, and some people's vacations overlap onto other people's work.


--------------------
C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know."

"I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung

Krishna, as his friends called him, freely admitted his compulsive lying. He blamed it on simple fear of having his deceptions detected." NOTES OF A FRINGE-WATCHER MARTIN GARDNER on J Krishnamurti

"All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]


Edited by Cory Duchesne (08/08/23 03:44 PM)


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