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solarshroomster
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Quote:
Blue Cthulhu said: OP I really like how you've framed this whole issue, being "duped." It makes me think of the common spiritual metaphor of a "veil" covering our eyes and causing us to not see what is always there.
I hear what you're saying about hard skulled atheists/reductionists (and the culture at large) duping us. But what do you think about the idea that deeper down, we are actually duping ourselves, and it is at that level that we can truly reverse the duping?
By the way, I believe there is a collective movement going on to reverse the duping, and as it gains momentum, we will eventually reach a tipping point where it is no longer controversial to discuss even in the mainstream media (which will probably no longer exist, anyways). The veil will have been lifted so far that we will take it as a matter of course that we are eternal beings manifesting each moment into creation, of one source.
Yes, I agree, we are also duping ourselves. I'm of the view that the revelation is ineffable, so when we "return", cognitive dissonance kicks in, and we make up stories to analogize the feeling. My "trip report" above is an example of that--I don't describe it accurately, but I illustrate "around" it. Upon return to this-worldly realm, we forget revelation and spiritual amnesia kicks in.
Then we start duping ourselves into thinking that it's all not true. That's where I'm at again. Probably for the better, since it's not mentally healthy to walk around with mystical feelings 24/7.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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I've been thinking recently what is obvious in perspectives, that we fall and temporarily remain that way because we pause our concentration. The body is difficult and cyclic, yet the remembrance tends to converge. Mind was made to be one.
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Lithop
Spaghetti Days


Registered: 04/09/22
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Quote:
solarshroomster said: Yes, I agree, we are also duping ourselves. I'm of the view that the revelation is ineffable, so when we "return", cognitive dissonance kicks in, and we make up stories to analogize the feeling.
This made me think of how Dzogchen view posits that there is a primal state of being, or ground. Beginningless and endless- pristine awareness, free from both personal obscuration & conceptual elaboration.
Knowledge of this is known as 'Rigpa' AKA the innermost nature of mind. The "problem" is that, simultainously arising is 'dumbfoundedness' or 'ignorance' serving as inability to SEE Rigpa. In turn this obscures the true nature of mind and leads to our Samsaric existence in its myriad forms: inlcuding the way you mention- making up stories to analogise/rationalise a feeling/experience that transcends our intellectual ability to explain it using conventional means. Doing instead of being, very human stuff.
The above speaks to why I suggest a more casual relationship with these unknown aspects/experiences if we are to integrate them into daily life, because without proper work on establishing knowledge of the 'base', we may end up stacking all sorts of potentially janky conceptual ideas ontop of one another until something gives way. See also Avidyā
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syncro
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Re: Groundhog Day [Re: Lithop]
#28414923 - 07/31/23 10:11 AM (5 months, 25 days ago) |
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Janky!? 
Who's scruffy lookin? - Han Solo
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Lithop
Spaghetti Days


Registered: 04/09/22
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Re: Groundhog Day [Re: syncro]
#28414952 - 07/31/23 10:49 AM (5 months, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: Janky!? 
Who's scruffy lookin? - Han Solo
Cranky janky. I hope by "the above" you didn't think I was deeming your post as janky. Although I can see it reading like that. I meant the content of my own post when I said "the above"(I'd walked away to do something while typing, your post wasn't up yet) and by janky I meant taking any manner of esoteric ideas on board without considering and testing their meaning or ability to hold weight
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Blue Cthulhu
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Quote:
solarshroomster said: Then we start duping ourselves into thinking that it's all not true. That's where I'm at again. Probably for the better, since it's not mentally healthy to walk around with mystical feelings 24/7.
There IS something comforting about consensus reality, isn't there?? Although I like to think that all those analogies and insights we bring back help to shift the collective reality, if ever so slightly, as it continues to evolve through the injection of psychedelic moments.
"Behold, I make all things new again!" Said somebody returning from quite a psychedelic experience.
-------------------- "Things are true that I forget, but no one taught that to me yet." A disembodied-re-embodied consciousness be-ing (With all the accoutrements.)
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Blue Cthulhu
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"Remember also that if physical reality is in a larger sense an illusion, it is an illusion caused by a greater reality. The illusion itself has a purpose and a meaning."
-Seth
-------------------- "Things are true that I forget, but no one taught that to me yet." A disembodied-re-embodied consciousness be-ing (With all the accoutrements.)
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Last seen: 22 minutes, 5 seconds
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Quote:
Lithop said:
Quote:
syncro said: Janky!? 
Who's scruffy lookin? - Han Solo
Cranky janky. I hope by "the above" you didn't think I was deeming your post as janky. Although I can see it reading like that. I meant the content of my own post when I said "the above"(I'd walked away to do something while typing, your post wasn't up yet) and by janky I meant taking any manner of esoteric ideas on board without considering and testing their meaning or ability to hold weight 
lol, I wasn't meaning it referring to that. just playing
The conceptual stuff we put around it can be part of the unique creativity and madness we bring, hopefully moving to the more reflective.
And as said, the handing it over, at the beginning and end of the day, as much as possible.
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syncro
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Re: Groundhog Day [Re: syncro] 1
#28415092 - 07/31/23 01:16 PM (5 months, 25 days ago) |
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But wait, I am handing over my conceptual phenomena to a concept! Yet these reflect and are contained by life.
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Lithop
Spaghetti Days


Registered: 04/09/22
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Re: Groundhog Day [Re: syncro]
#28415131 - 07/31/23 01:54 PM (5 months, 25 days ago) |
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Quote:
syncro said: lol, I wasn't meaning it referring to that. just playing

Quote:
syncro said: The conceptual stuff we put around it can be part of the unique creativity and madness we bring, hopefully moving to the more reflective.
That's true and an important part life. But it also possible for concepts to become an obscuring influence, therefore a risk to liberation.
Quote:
syncro said: And as said, the handing it over, at the beginning and end of the day, as much as possible. But wait, I am handing over my conceptual phenomena to a concept! Yet these reflect and are contained by life.
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syncro
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Re: Groundhog Day [Re: Lithop]
#28415165 - 07/31/23 02:28 PM (5 months, 25 days ago) |
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Agreed. I think there is a point where we need not eschew concepts within, and I'm part of the choir around that. We think stuff can pause mind, but they are mind's light. And of course seeing them as such, they will not bind.
Aiming for manolaya or the like serves to end concepts and that is how their nature is seen. Mind is never harmed nor can harm, ever present and vibrant as the teaching goes that we verify.
Edited by syncro (08/01/23 08:00 PM)
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solarshroomster
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Re: Groundhog Day [Re: Lithop]
#28419576 - 08/03/23 09:16 PM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Lithop said: Apt how I just changed my title to "Chapel Perilous" it seems you may have become an alter boy there without even realising it bro.
"I woke up in a snowstorm, painted in frost. And strange designs that connected all my thoughts I was a bird lost in a storm- far away from home, with no idea where I've flown"
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solarshroomster said: Anyhow, I take solace in what Lithop told me once that when you begin to place effort on appreciation, as opposed to explanation, new windows into perception fling open. (Correct me on that if I miscited you).
Not a miscite, but rather than take solace in it - which is all well and good- I beg that you really try to take the message onboard.
CreonAntigone hit the nail on the head just before with:
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CreonAntigone said: The simplicity of divine experience is apparent in the living of life.
Don't you see that this is the message being propsed to you, time and again? You don't like the answer that things are exactly how they are, regardless of your level of understanding? To accept & embrace your life as it comes, as it constantly changes allows you a position where you can enjoy both the mystical and practical aspects of existence without the need of either bogging you down.
For example: allow yourself to appreciate the innate wonder of evolution- study local plants & animals, how they interact with each other & their environment to shape the entire ecosystem around them. Or learn music theory, dive into how the parsing & arranging of frequency can open a whole world governed by interesting rules and intrinsic discovery around every corner.
My point being, stop pushing so hard on this that you break yourself. I promise you will give in before 'reality' does, don't turn these ideas that gave you such a sense of relief and freedom into another thought prison for yourself.
Imagine you were the first person to invent.... a hammer. Why spend the rest of your life convincing others that there is this amazing tool out there, than to actually use the hammer to fucking fix some stuff? What do you really WANT from your discoveries, from your learnings?
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solarshroomster said: Now that I see that I was duped and know the higher dimension, everything rings with meaning. The universe has come alive, because it always was alive through us (a truth I could not have appreciated when I was indoctrinated to think of a world "out there", as opposed to "in here" through astronomy... you see what I'm getting at?)
The focus that others duping you, lying to you, keeping things from you etc putting you into the role of victim is the most concerning aspect, bro. This versus mentality about something that, ultimately, your mental sovereignty/autonomy could hinge on, is beyond standing on a knives edge. Allow other people to believe what they want man, what right have you to 'force their hand' the way you feel yours was forced? As for everything ringing with meaning- you know yourself that this can be a warning sign.
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solarshroomster said: I don't need to explain any of this...
You really don't need to explain! Yet the drive to explain and prove wrong the skeptics, dupers and 'athiests' seems to be causing you varying distress for extended periods of time. I feel like we're gonna end up tailchasing over this again. In your other thread you said this:
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solarshroomster said: Can you help me out here? I smoked weed last night. For 7.5 hours I was fully convinced I discovered a riddle behind the universe. Not, thinking that I did, mind you, but fully and absolutely of the experience that I discovered something absolutely incredible about our existence. I came up with the most genius ideas, my dreams came alive, memories that were previously obscured were unearthed. I became "early man", the first ape to light the ceremonial marijuana bud and usher himself into another dimension. I saw myself through that ape. I was the archetypal first man to return the "universal knowledge" back to that-worldly plane. Patterns reassembled themselves to create impossible meaning, too uncanny to just dismiss as a delusion, a man gone mad. It was impossible to describe. I saw space & time as just a construction of the mind. My room "disappeared", and the world spoke to me. I'm not sure how more ineffable it could have gone...
Is this a normal reaction from weed? Is everyone experiencing something similar to that?
IMHE this is not a 'normal' reaction to weed and I worry about THC destabilising you and throwing you waaaayyyy off track. Remember all the stuff we spoke about bias-checking too- don't get shackled by fantasy or delusion. I genuinely think you ought to take a step back from your self imposed role as 'messenger' or 'understander of the mystic' because if these ideas are what you THINK they are- then they aren't going anywhere! Mental health, however, can be muchmore fickle.
Much love, Solar but come on, PLEASE be careful with this stuff.

EDIT: You know my stance on much of this stuff, I'm not trying to come across like a condescending prick- nor am I saying denounce wonder. I just don't want you to fry yourself.

This was genius... thank you..! I like the part where you talk about:
"I genuinely think you ought to take a step back from your self imposed role as 'messenger' or 'understander of the mystic' because if these ideas are what you THINK they are- then they aren't going anywhere! "
You then go on, above:
"I feel like we're gonna end up tailchasing over this again. In your other thread you said this:"
Or, like this -
"My point being, stop pushing so hard on this that you break yourself. I promise you will give in before 'reality' does, don't turn these ideas that gave you such a sense of relief and freedom into another thought prison for yourself."
***
Thank you.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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Lithop
Spaghetti Days


Registered: 04/09/22
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Quote:
solarshroomster said:
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Thank you. 
Just sharing thoughts. You're more than welcome bro.
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solarshroomster
Wonderer



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Re: Groundhog Day [Re: Lithop] 1
#28421580 - 08/05/23 08:59 AM (5 months, 20 days ago) |
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I really do appreciate it, especially where you say "don't turn these ideas that gave you such a sense of relief and freedom into another thought prison for yourself". I can tell you're speaking from a lot of wisdom there. (I'm not being sarcastic, I really mean that literally).
If you allow me, I do have perhaps one minor gripe at this point.
What are we to make out of attacks on something that we know to be real and genuine, like the experience of the mystical world?
Consider for instance this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transpersonal_psychology
Many of us on this forum know how valuable & legitimate the discipline of "transpersonal psychology" is. Its creation was partially led by the psychologist Abraham Maslow (who you may know more for "Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs") and popularized more by psychedelic psychiatrist Stansilov Grof.
When Maslow and Slof pioneered this field of study, they weren't doing it for "fun" or "shits & giggles"; they were doing something that clearly reflected what they found were evident in their studies. And, as as has already been explicitly revealed in this thread, Grof's work has been of immense benefit to FishOilTheKid and other people have gone through or going through spiritual emergencies, myself included.
All of this is a long way to say that "Transpersonal psychology" is a legitimate field of study for a lot of us that provides meaning and understanding, a source of "truth".
Then, why, exactly is there a big label on the top by the Wikipedia editors to "Transpersonal Psychology" that reads: "This article may present fringe theories, without giving appropriate weight to the mainstream view, and explaining the responses to the fringe theories"...
Digging a little further into the "Talk" tab of this Wikipedia article (where Wikipedia editors go to discuss their edits), it reads this:
"It is now suggested by Wikipedia-editors that Transpersonal psychology is a fringe-discipline... However, if Transpersonal psychology is now going to be conceptualized and elucidated as a fringe discipline in the mind of the public, which I understand is the consensus of the mid-january revisions, then it would be preferable that this categorization was supported by more sources than the few already in place."
I also see that, for no some odd coincidence, it's also tagged as "Skepticism article" and dumped in with "Alternative medicine" articles.
**
What I'm saying is this: Yes, you are noble for taking the high road here, but it's important to also call out where we were misled. And, in my sense, there's even a little bit of duty to clear things up so other people don't fall victim to the same things I fell for. Clearly, there is a very strong effort by pseudo-skeptic community (I don't call them skeptics) to frame anything that has so much as the semblance of spirituality to it as delusional.
After all, how can we take "Transpersonal psychology" seriously if it's "fringe"! And, my goodness, worse yet -- it's alternative medicine "woo woo".
How silly of them! They tell us to throw out the modern medicine prescriptions and snort some bamboo to make our cancer go away, now these same people are telling us that "transpersonal psychology" is legitimate? Give me a break!
But this isn't just about "transpersonal psychiatry" (you'll see the "Skepticism" article tagged on everything from "near-death experiences" to "shamanism"... there's an active community at work here). This is a full scale disinformation, delegitimization campaign. I was a personal casualty of this black/white way of thinking and fell down the rabbit hole of overly rigid, linear "rationalistic" thinking before I found my way out.
I'm somewhat sympathetic towards these pseudo-skeptics, but when they go too far, it's worth making the same point Albert Einstein made:
Quote:
"The fanatical Atheists are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who – in their grudge against traditional religion as the 'opium of the masses' – cannot hear the music of the spheres" ~ Albert Einstein
**
All of this is to say, yes, even though I see (and agree with the sentiment behind) your and others' points here, there still, in my view, need to be some educational realignment in terms of what is being conveyed to the public (don't even get me started on Astronomy & the Big Bang!).
Because if you don't speak up, no one's going to hear your points. I admire the lonely humility in being silent, but I also admire passion for experience. The key is finding the right balance.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
Edited by solarshroomster (08/05/23 09:15 AM)
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Lithop
Spaghetti Days


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Quote:
solarshroomster said: I can tell you're speaking from a lot of wisdom there. (I'm not being sarcastic, I really mean that literally).
I got it from a fortune cookie like 82% of my posts.

The point you're making comes across clearly- we're just opposed on the urgency of these sort of ideas being shared and what weight who all thinks what is or is not real carries.
I'm happy for everyone to try and find their beliefs in the world but I can't be bothered/ don't feel I have the right to direct them to what I reckon it might be, in that way I don't feel the same "little bit of duty" toward "educational realignment". It's just personal.
I only mean to warn of not being so focused on legitimising your percieved truth to other people that you: A.) Can't enjoy the fruits of learning those things for yourself. or B.)Get burnt out from other peoples resistance to your ideas.


:edit: You're right to say "The key is finding the right balance."
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Edited by Lithop (08/05/23 03:50 PM)
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solarshroomster
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Re: Houndog day [Re: Lithop]
#28422221 - 08/05/23 07:05 PM (5 months, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Lithop said:
Quote:
solarshroomster said: I can tell you're speaking from a lot of wisdom there. (I'm not being sarcastic, I really mean that literally).
I got it from a fortune cookie like 82% of my posts.

The point you're making comes across clearly- we're just opposed on the urgency of these sort of ideas being shared and what weight who all thinks what is or is not real carries.
I'm happy for everyone to try and find their beliefs in the world but I can't be bothered/ don't feel I have the right to direct them to what I reckon it might be, in that way I don't feel the same "little bit of duty" toward "educational realignment". It's just personal.
I only mean to warn of not being so focused on legitimising your percieved truth to other people that you: A.) Can't enjoy the fruits of learning those things for yourself. or B.)Get burnt out from other peoples resistance to your ideas.


:edit: You're right to say "The key is finding the right balance."
Thanks again, I always get a lot from your posts.Quote:
Lithop said:
Quote:
solarshroomster said: I can tell you're speaking from a lot of wisdom there. (I'm not being sarcastic, I really mean that literally).
I got it from a fortune cookie like 82% of my posts.

The point you're making comes across clearly- we're just opposed on the urgency of these sort of ideas being shared and what weight who all thinks what is or is not real carries.
I'm happy for everyone to try and find their beliefs in the world but I can't be bothered/ don't feel I have the right to direct them to what I reckon it might be, in that way I don't feel the same "little bit of duty" toward "educational realignment". It's just personal.
I only mean to warn of not being so focused on legitimising your percieved truth to other people that you: A.) Can't enjoy the fruits of learning those things for yourself. or B.)Get burnt out from other peoples resistance to your ideas.


:edit: You're right to say "The key is finding the right balance."
Thank you again... I find your posts very helpful.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
Edited by solarshroomster (08/05/23 08:00 PM)
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Lithop
Spaghetti Days


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It's all good mate! I enjoy your posts and talking with you too
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solarshroomster
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Re: Groundhog Day [Re: Lithop]
#28439168 - 08/19/23 11:14 AM (5 months, 6 days ago) |
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Okay, I really need some help here. I don't understand how I was so duped into believing these things were fake? What do I do to move forward?
Like, I can't get over how I was so hypnotized into not believing it before? And, why, now does it "all of the sudden" make "so much sense"?
I like what Lithop said about actually using the hammer, as opposed to just worshipping it.
I feel though like worshipping original revelation might be the best thing, at the same time... so I don't know.
Maybe, I should be grateful that I'm so unable to move on and just accept the revelation of the existence of the mystical for what it is.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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I don't see how you are not moving on. Like I said, I think you are leading. I understand though, it may be still on the mind.
The hypnotism is universal, or to blame persons would be in the symptoms. Ego is a symptom of creative forces more subtle, if useful to see that way.
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Blue Cthulhu
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Registered: 05/27/19
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Quote:
solarshroomster said: Okay, I really need some help here. I don't understand how I was so duped into believing these things were fake? What do I do to move forward?
Like, I can't get over how I was so hypnotized into not believing it before? And, why, now does it "all of the sudden" make "so much sense"?
I like what Lithop said about actually using the hammer, as opposed to just worshipping it.
I feel though like worshipping original revelation might be the best thing, at the same time... so I don't know.
Maybe, I should be grateful that I'm so unable to move on and just accept the revelation of the existence of the mystical for what it is.
Sounds like you are in the midst of a lengthy integration phase, following revelation. The struggle you are experiencing might be a way in which the revelation is broken down, digested, and distributed throughout your being in a way that it can then have practical consequences. The desire for understanding will surely bring more insights your way. Seek and you will find, ask and you will receive...
I find some value in the Hindu idea of Lila, the divine game of hide and seek. Maybe we dupe ourselves so as to hide from ourselves, deep in the world of matter and illusion, so that when we do find ourselves it is so delightful.
-------------------- "Things are true that I forget, but no one taught that to me yet." A disembodied-re-embodied consciousness be-ing (With all the accoutrements.)
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