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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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- relationship dynamics - * 1
    #28393367 - 07/12/23 10:15 AM (6 months, 14 days ago)

Until recently I've not known of this perspective and am unsure how I feel about it.  Some say the healthiest longest lasting relationships are between an individual who is more dominant and an individual who is relatively submissive.  And that there are often significant problems between two dominant people and two submissives.

any thoughts?


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Re: - relationship dynamics - [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28393395 - 07/12/23 10:43 AM (6 months, 14 days ago)

Normal(average) women want a strong man. Not just because those traits tend toward loyalty, sacrifice, and ambition but because the normal(average) man is desirous and competitive enough to strive for it. A man like that needs a close confidant, a support system, not someone to butt heads with. In my opinion it exemplifies our hardwired social order but also a manner in which we attempt to make our idealisms more tangible. I wouldn't think it even healthy to raise children in any other situation, for the same reasons everyone hates that kid who was raised by a single mom. People only slam their fists in the dirt about gender roles because they make them feel inadequate. No one's perfect, but it seems like it's all too normal these days to ask everyone around you to say you are lmao


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Offlinelifeiswhatyoumake
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Re: - relationship dynamics - [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28393432 - 07/12/23 11:22 AM (6 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Until recently I've not known of this perspective and am unsure how I feel about it.  Some say the healthiest longest lasting relationships are between an individual who is more dominant and an individual who is relatively submissive.  And that there are often significant problems between two dominant people and two submissives.

any thoughts?





Do you have any scientific studies or anything measurable to add to this convo?  Or just random anecdotes from people you know?

The average male is stronger than the average female, so there is almost always a dynamic in that regard.  Stronger creatures tend to be more dominant than weaker creatures.


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Edited by lifeiswhatyoumake (07/12/23 11:37 AM)


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: - relationship dynamics - [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28393541 - 07/12/23 01:41 PM (6 months, 14 days ago)

Id agree on this dynamic. My best friend's parent are still married and i see that dynamic there. I think it really comes down to finding the right balance of dominant and submissive and each person "agreeing" with the terms of it.

I also believe that if the roles switch between the two, that can also help keep the relationship together, as the Yin-Yang dynamics are still there but in the opposite person.

Ive had sex in the past where the roles of her being a sub were clearly laid out to me and that really made for some wonderful, fullfilling sex. In a relationship context, i can see this working just as well.


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Invisibleilus
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Re: - relationship dynamics - [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #28393994 - 07/12/23 11:35 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

I really think that it has to be that way for things to work smoothly and that's OK.  Many times in life a couple will get to a point where there is something very important that both of them feel strongly about and disagree.  If there isn't a "final decision maker" then it would instantly tear them apart.  I have seen this a lot in gay couples especially, where at the beginning they have to make an agreement who the final decision maker is when this sort of thing happens so that the relationship can function properly on a higher level.  Even if that person is wrong about the decision.


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: - relationship dynamics - [Re: ilus] * 1
    #28394015 - 07/13/23 12:05 AM (6 months, 13 days ago)

While still the norm in many asian countries such as India and Japan, such an expectation of dominance seems to be on the way out in Europe and America.

Rightly in your post you don't mention a sex as being the one that should be dominant - so I don't think the way you've presented the concept is sexist. However, the way the concept is seen in many societies is, in fact, sexist - they say that just one sex should be the dominant one, men, and they socialize women to accept being subservient. But more and more, as women learn to take on leadership roles in their work life, in politics and in their community, they're less willing to just accept a second-class status.

If we were cavemen without stable agricultural society, male dominance could be argued for - one could say that the most physically strong would have to lead because there are a lot of physical threats. But we don't exist in that situation anymore, and women with good education are just as capable of taking leadership roles as men in companies and other areas where intelligence and not brute strength is needed. So a lot of women are going to increasingly question the idea that they can't be leaders in the household, too.

I think most people today would far prefer relationships to be seen as equal. At least, I would not be a partner with someone who wanted one person or the other to be dominant, and I don't know many who would describe their relationship in this way. Ironically, I even read from many who are into BDSM - who want to have a dynamic of being a sub in the bedroom - who still prefer equality in their day-to-day life, since equality lets them best gets their needs met without someone else taking priority. Even those who want to be called subs are not, in their everday life, subs. 

I don't disagree that sometimes people fall into a natural pattern of being submissive. If it's just naturally people taking a certain role, that's fine if it's fine for everyone. But if one partner expects to be able to be preeminent over their partner and to let their decisions override the other person's, I think they're living in the past and I really pity their partners. Because if they ever have to enforce a 'decision' over what the other partner thinks, it's not longer a really well-working social system and instead it just looks like bullying, pushing the weaker partner to make sure one gets their way. I think less and less women are going to feel 'naturally submissive' and willing to do whatever the men in their life want - and the men won't want to be submissive either. So more and more I think equal relationships will be adopted.

And while there are also relationships where the woman is dominant, those are not looked on very favorably today either - with over-bearing wives probably dreaded by all men trying to marry today. Who is looking to jump into a relationship where their say means less? You can notice that almost everyone who advocates for this system puts themselves in the lead role, no surprise there.


Edited by CreonAntigone (07/13/23 12:11 AM)


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OfflinePatchouli_Savage
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Re: - relationship dynamics - [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28394024 - 07/13/23 01:10 AM (6 months, 13 days ago)

The above post is excellent and makes some really good points.

I'd like to add that every relationship dynamic is different and there are so many other factors that will make or break a relationship, such as values, ability to communicate, accountability, love languages, and lifestyle preferences.

If yoi can't agree on how to handle finances or raise children or communicate needs or accept responsility when you fuck up and work to make it right, or a partner doesn't feel seen or loved or validated in the relationship, then it doesn't matter who is dominant and who is submissive- the relationship will fail or certainly it will be an unhappy one.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: - relationship dynamics - [Re: Patchouli_Savage]
    #28394270 - 07/13/23 09:41 AM (6 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

lifeiswhatyoumake said:

Do you have any scientific studies or anything measurable to add to this convo?  Or just random anecdotes from people you know?




I'm not presenting the topic as fact.  I've not heard this perspective before and find it curious.  I have no strong opinions on this view, which is rare.

Quote:

CreonAntigone said:

If we were cavemen without stable agricultural society, male dominance could be argued for - one could say that the most physically strong would have to lead because there are a lot of physical threats. But we don't exist in that situation anymore . . .




I wouldn't call modern society "stable" - no matter how you define the word. 

Considering the current skyrocketing levels of human violence, can you appreciate a female might prefer a male who has the willingness and ability to engage in violence?  Many women prefer a man who is dangerous.  A dangerous man is not a violent man.  A dangerous man is a man who is willing and able to engage in violence if necessary.  Many males are crippled by fear and are not willing or able to rise to a threatening situation.     


Quote:

Patchouli_Savage said:

If you can't agree on how to handle finances or raise children or communicate needs or accept responsibility . . . then it doesn't matter who is dominant and who is submissive




One common issue with marriage and having kids is you usually don't know how your partner will perform in childrearing. Until you have kids with someone, you have no sold data on which to evaluate them.  Many decent kind men and women make terrible horrendous parents.  And just because a new spouse treats their biological kids well doesn't mean they won't be total asshole to their new stepchildren.


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OfflinePatchouli_Savage
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Re: - relationship dynamics - [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28394287 - 07/13/23 10:02 AM (6 months, 13 days ago)

That still has nothing to do with who is dominant and who is submissive.

I'm merely pointing out that you're whittling relationship success down to one partner being dominant and one being submissive, and I'm saying there's a lot more to relationship success than that.

You're way over simplifying relationships as of dominance and submission are the key factors in making or breaking a relationship, and I'm merely pointing that out.

For instance, a person who considers themselves "dominant" can be bad at managing money and run finances into the ground. The financial strain could ruin the relationship because the "submissive" partner doesn't hold the the "dominant" partner accountable for their ineptitude and take over the budget. That's just an example.

Now you've completely side stepped this point by saying you can't know if someone will be a good parent, clinging tomtjosnone thing while failing to address the actual point I am making.

To your tangential response, I will also disagree. While nothing is certain, you can guage how someone will be as a parent by observing how they interact with children and animals, their level of responsibility and accountability and basic life skills, and what their relationship with their family is like as well as how they feel about their own childhood and childhood experiences. How do they handle inconvenience? External stimuli and petty irrirants? All of these things are clues as to one's ability to care for tiny Humans. You can also ask a partner how they feel about certain aspects of child rearing, such as spanking, yelling, time out, whatn schools you want them to attend, what sort of values you want to pass on to your children, etc. 

Also, I'm wondering what your own experience is with dominant and submissive roles at all in relationships.

Some people rely heavily on those roles but only in the bedroom. Some people engage in 24/7 power dynamics. Some relationships focus on teamwork and each person acknowledges their own strengths and weakness and divide their responsibilities accordingly.

Every dynamic is different and both (or all) parties must communicate, check in, and decide what works best for them.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: - relationship dynamics - [Re: Patchouli_Savage]
    #28394308 - 07/13/23 10:28 AM (6 months, 13 days ago)

There are an enormous number of issues that factor into relationships. I didn't define the words "dominant" and submissive".  My pondering of the subject was mostly focused on power & decision making (not sex).  We could talk about a myriad of other aspects of "dominant" and submissive".

My stepmother was fully dominant over my father.  She determined his sleep schedule and what food he ate.  She determined how he voted!  My father voted how she wanted him to vote, but he secretly told me his honest political views. She wore the pants in the family, as they say. 

I don't see your list as an accurate predictor of how a person will parent.  A man who abuses his spouse likely won't make a good father, but until you actually observe how a person behaves rearing children, it's mostly a crap shoot.  I see this with my ex-wife and others in my life.  Good people can make terrible parents.


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OfflinePatchouli_Savage
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Re: - relationship dynamics - [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28394349 - 07/13/23 11:25 AM (6 months, 13 days ago)

You asked what our thoughts are regarding dominant and submissive partners in relationships.

I said there's more to relationships than that and I also said there are degrees of dominant and submissive roles in relationships that involve that type of power exchange.

I'm merely pointing out that things aren't so cut and dry.

I also never said good people don't make terrible parents. I said that if you observe the right things and ask the right questions, you can derive clues as to how someone will parent.


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OfflinePatchouli_Savage
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Re: - relationship dynamics - [Re: Patchouli_Savage]
    #28394373 - 07/13/23 11:44 AM (6 months, 13 days ago)

Also, my original response said nothing about being a good parent.

My original response discussed the importance of shared values and an ability to work together on really big things such as raising children, among other things.

You've chosen to go a completely different way and them throw in your own personal experience to add to tangents you're created out of thin air here.

Kinda weird dude. You're derailing your own post.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: - relationship dynamics - [Re: Patchouli_Savage]
    #28394393 - 07/13/23 12:01 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

The thread wasn't intended to be narrow.  I purposely left it wide open. I didn't even define the 2 words. It's fine with me if people choose to discuss various related views, such as sexual dominance (although that interests me less than power dynamics).  Nuances of the topic could fill several large books.

BTW, I think a child usually views their mother as a dominant figure, since they are so dependent on her.  I believe my father, deep down, enjoyed being dominated by his wife.  My brother and sister tend to agree with me - regarding his attraction to being submissive.


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: - relationship dynamics - [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28397604 - 07/16/23 11:55 AM (6 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
My stepmother was fully dominant over my father.  She determined his sleep schedule and what food he ate.  She determined how he voted!  My father voted how she wanted him to vote, but he secretly told me his honest political views. She wore the pants in the family, as they say. 





Do you advocate for this kind of relationship for more people though? Sounds patronizing. Who wants their partner deciding their civic choice? Doesn't that kind of take away a person's confidence and individuality?

I disagree with the part about determining another's vote. But I can see a partner delegating a decision to another partner and giving them the lead. Maybe there's a middle ground somewhere away from this extreme you described


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: - relationship dynamics - [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28406736 - 07/24/23 04:56 PM (6 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

CreonAntigone said:
Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:

My stepmother was fully dominant over my father.  She determined his sleep schedule and what food he ate.  She determined how he voted!  My father voted how she wanted him to vote, but he secretly told me his honest political views. She wore the pants in the family, as they say.




Do you advocate for this kind of relationship for more people though? Sounds patronizing. Who wants their partner deciding their civic choice? Doesn't that kind of take away a person's confidence and individuality?




My example involving my parents seems to be a type of dysfunctional codependency.  I feel like it's unhealthy, yet in some ways it seems like it worked for them.  I tend to agree, that more of a balance leads to a healthier relationship.  Yet, considering people are generally damaged and traumatized, maybe some do the best they can.

BTW, it's wild when two dominant controlling people enter a relationship.  Maybe they thrive on the constant drama and battle for power?


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