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Xorgo
Stranger

Registered: 06/16/23
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request for dikaryotic crosses?
#28403369 - 07/21/23 10:01 PM (9 months, 22 days ago) |
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What if a man was looking for like z-strain and p.nat crossed. where does one even begin?
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covertjoy

Registered: 07/09/23
Posts: 272
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Re: request for dikaryotic crosses? [Re: Xorgo]
#28403561 - 07/22/23 06:27 AM (9 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Xorgo said: What if a man was looking for like z-strain and p.nat crossed. where does one even begin?
Spores will germinate as a haploid and combine with another haploid to create a full set of genetics capable of fruiting. To hybridise fungi you have to isolate the haploid cultures so you can strategically introduce them to each other. You'll see them referred to as monokaryotic cultures as well as haploid cultures. Once the haploid cultures combine you can then transfer and cultivate as usual. Not all haploids will be compatible and cross species it is considered very rare. Stabilising the resulting hybrid is another side of it since new hybrids will create a huge range of phenotypes in subsequent generations (generations are called F1, F2, etc with F1 being the first hybrid). You basically have to keep breeding them out and selecting for your desired phenotypes and over time they will stabilise more and more.
I'm just getting started on the same journey myself. So far I have found this playlist on YouTube to be most helpful:
Would be happy to correspond further as I'm also new to mycology and just getting started on the journey of hybridisation. Currently I'm investigating isolating a single spore under the microscope rather than doing a serial dilution and streaking/spreading which is the method used in the video above.
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thirdeyewild



Registered: 11/01/13
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Re: request for dikaryotic crosses? [Re: covertjoy]
#28403951 - 07/22/23 02:02 PM (9 months, 22 days ago) |
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Nats and cubes cross surprisingly easy. I've done a few that looked neat but have never been impressed with the trip. I mean they are strong feeling but I could never get the cube visuals in there. I've even tried back crossing a few generations.
Edited by thirdeyewild (07/22/23 02:04 PM)
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covertjoy

Registered: 07/09/23
Posts: 272
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Re: request for dikaryotic crosses? [Re: thirdeyewild]
#28403984 - 07/22/23 02:22 PM (9 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
thirdeyewild said: Nats and cubes cross surprisingly easy. I've done a few that looked neat but have never been impressed with the trip. I mean they are strong feeling but I could never get the cube visuals in there. I've even tried back crossing a few generations.
That's interesting. What is your method for crossing them? I wonder how others in the Psilocybe genus would do crossed with Psilocybe cubensis.
I've read on here about Panaeolus cyanescens and Psilocybe cubensis being crossed with great difficulty. In that case snake venom agar was used.
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thirdeyewild



Registered: 11/01/13
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Re: request for dikaryotic crosses? [Re: covertjoy]
#28404013 - 07/22/23 02:44 PM (9 months, 22 days ago) |
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I don't think others would cross as easy. Cubes and Nats are genetically very similar . I just chop LI,s together.
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Eclipse3130
Servant of the Fungi



Registered: 10/06/13
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Re: request for dikaryotic crosses? [Re: covertjoy]
#28404346 - 07/22/23 07:29 PM (9 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
covertjoy said:
Quote:
Xorgo said: What if a man was looking for like z-strain and p.nat crossed. where does one even begin?
Spores will germinate as a haploid and combine with another haploid to create a full set of genetics capable of fruiting. To hybridise fungi you have to isolate the haploid cultures so you can strategically introduce them to each other. You'll see them referred to as monokaryotic cultures as well as haploid cultures. Once the haploid cultures combine you can then transfer and cultivate as usual.
True technically, but *you* don't have to do anything in this process. It's as simple as combining spores together and they mate naturally. It's a very easy process to breed.
In terms of crossing different mushroom species, it doesn't work, it would be like breeding a Fish with a Human.
Cubensis can cross with Natalensis because they are very closely related, not an entirely different species more so like a brother or sister.
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
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thirdeyewild



Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 941
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Re: request for dikaryotic crosses? [Re: Eclipse3130]
#28404417 - 07/22/23 08:05 PM (9 months, 22 days ago) |
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Cubensis and Nats are a different species. Brothers and sisters are not. There are many examples of cross species hybrids with fungi. NecD, black oyster for example.
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Eclipse3130
Servant of the Fungi



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Re: request for dikaryotic crosses? [Re: thirdeyewild]
#28404452 - 07/22/23 08:30 PM (9 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
thirdeyewild said: Cubensis and Nats are a different species. Brothers and sisters are not. There are many examples of cross species hybrids with fungi. NecD, black oyster for example.
Was just an analogy for them being closely related, I didn't mean it literally. They can breed together because they are closely related, they are not an entirely separate - distinctive different Genus of mushroom.
And black oyster is a hybrid of two oyster mushrooms, and NecD is a hybrid of two panaelous mushrooms, they are close relatives, although different species - in the same family
A true cross species(Genus) hybrid would be a Oyster mushroom crossed to a Cubensis, as far as I know it's not possible.
edit: I guess what I meant by breeding different species is not possible, is *completely* different species, at which point you would call a different Genus in most cases. This doesn't mean all differing species can interbreed, but within differing species there are some that share a lot of similarity in DNA than others and can successfully breed.
Psilocybe Azurescens crossed to Psilocybe Cubensis, though in the same Genus and differing species this cross does not work because they are not similar enough in DNA. Differing habitats and growing conditions.
There are some Genuses with species that are much closer related and can breed, Panaleous for example that share similar growing conditions and habitats, and you guessed it Psilocybe Cubensis and Psilocybe Natalensis - certain inhibitory actions like snake venom can force crosses in some instances as well.
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
Edited by Eclipse3130 (07/22/23 09:34 PM)
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covertjoy

Registered: 07/09/23
Posts: 272
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Re: request for dikaryotic crosses? [Re: Eclipse3130]
#28404537 - 07/22/23 09:53 PM (9 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Eclipse3130 said:edit: I guess what I meant by breeding different species is not possible, is *completely* different species, at which point you would call a different Genus in most cases. This doesn't mean all differing species can interbreed, but within differing species there are some that share a lot of similarity in DNA than others and can successfully breed.
We really don't know what can and can't hybridise. It certainly isn't determined by taxonomy which is completely arbitrary. Sure, as gemonic divergence increases, likelihood of successful hybridisation decreases, without a doubt; but we don't know when that likelihood reaches zero or when it remains one in a trillion or more. There are miracles in nature.
The number of genomic permutations between two separate species is enormous. Until you have a quantum computer that can model every possible combination of every sequenced individual and run the simulation with every other candidate individual, we can not say that the hybridisation is impossible. All we can say is that we tried a bunch of times and were unsuccessful.
Even organisms with different number of chromosomes can hybridise with each other. It has been observed in yeast, fish, amphibians, etc. In those cases the F1 usually fails at meiosis and therefore can't further reproduce sexually, but we can't rule anything out and the hybridisation has already occurred by then anyway. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7198630
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Edited by covertjoy (07/22/23 09:58 PM)
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Eclipse3130
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Re: request for dikaryotic crosses? [Re: covertjoy]
#28404651 - 07/22/23 11:50 PM (9 months, 21 days ago) |
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Yessir.
Hybridizing cubes is easy though, just mash spores together
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
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thirdeyewild



Registered: 11/01/13
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Re: request for dikaryotic crosses? [Re: Eclipse3130] 1
#28405075 - 07/23/23 09:08 AM (9 months, 21 days ago) |
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I just wanted to clarify:
A cube x a cube is a mating, not a hybrid. NecD is pan.cyan x pan p.tropicalis which is a true cross species hybrid. A pan and a psilocybe (for example )would be a cross genus hybrid. As mentioned above species and genus are human constructs and I agree that things may be alot more fluid with mushroom breeding than we are aware of . Edit: We see alot of variety crosses being called hybrids but I don't think this is correct use of the term
There is a neat natural hybrid on the island here between Amanita gemmata and A.panterina.
Edited by thirdeyewild (07/23/23 09:32 AM)
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Xorgo
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Re: request for dikaryotic crosses? [Re: covertjoy] 1
#28405108 - 07/23/23 09:44 AM (9 months, 21 days ago) |
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Thanks! Will definitely check out the channel. This journey is complex but very fun!
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Eclipse3130
Servant of the Fungi



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Re: request for dikaryotic crosses? [Re: thirdeyewild] 1
#28405187 - 07/23/23 11:19 AM (9 months, 21 days ago) |
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I'm under the impression hybrid can be used as the term, by definition it is a breed between two varieties or species.
A varietal hybrid is probably the best term, I think it's important people recognize the lineage especially of cubes, or work goes unrecognized especially as there are so many strain names now and people are naming things by just isolating spores.
Things like APE, Rustywhyte, Gold Ghost, the list goes on should be recognized as cross breeds or hybrids, but not many even know that - I've seen a lot of people just think are unique phenos of certain things from spore of a certain parent
Even certain informative websites don't even list certain strains as the true cross breeds or varietal hybrids they are, this website claims APE as a "variant" or "pheno" of Penis Envy, in reality its a cross of PF Albino and PE. Most people don't realize PE UNCUT is also the same cross.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/tripsitter.com/magic-mushrooms/strains/albino-penis-envy/%3famp=1
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
Edited by Eclipse3130 (07/23/23 11:37 AM)
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Just M
Cosmic Student


Registered: 08/06/23
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Loc: South Africa
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Re: request for dikaryotic crosses? [Re: Xorgo]
#28437756 - 08/18/23 01:22 AM (8 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Xorgo said: What if a man was looking for like z-strain and p.nat crossed. where does one even begin?
I'm actually busy with this project.
But instead of Z I'm doing NSS
I've also got NSS & Z cross in the works.
You can have a look in my signature that was APE x NSS.
I will keep updated.
P.nat is extremely closely related to Cubensis (in fact they even look similar with only slight difference in stem and veil) and so it is possible with a little effort to get them crossed.
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APE x NSS cross I created
Cluster heaven.
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