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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories
#28403080 - 07/21/23 04:00 PM (6 months, 4 days ago) |
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A place to fill with clearly not nutter butter, Fal, Stable and Chops, go!
Please try to use multiple sources, and state sponsored media or individuals associated with state sponsored media are not welcome, as it has a high likelihood of introducing bias.
Feel free to point out specific sponsorships, conflicts of interest, or dubious history associated with any authors or those associated with articles, websites or opinion pieces.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (07/21/23 09:39 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
#28403343 - 07/21/23 09:14 PM (6 months, 4 days ago) |
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Sure, I'll start. Russia-Gate was a hoax to try and keep Trump out of office.
Not only did Robert Mueller conclude that the investigation "did not establish that members of the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities", but we now know Hillary Clinton Did It.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,789
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28403349 - 07/21/23 09:28 PM (6 months, 4 days ago) |
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Hey that's actually a good start, the Mueller investigation found there was interference from Russia, but no evidence of collusion between Russia and the Trump campaign.
Hillary herself had the email scam but I don't think she had anything classified, I still think she should have been arrested though, as she clearly put national security at risk by not using government servers, instead deciding to use a vulnerable private one.
I think this might be a good place for things that can be verified and don't require a connect the dots or to fill in the blanks with speculation sort of style. Things that may have had a speckled history or presentation, but that have now mustered a relatively clear conclusion.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (07/21/23 09:36 PM)
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gww
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly] 1
#28403382 - 07/21/23 10:40 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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The mueller did not find collusion but also did not clear the president on it but more listed ten obstruction of justice items in an effort to show why he did not find if it happened or not. Unlike hillery, trump stone walled in every way he could. Hum. His report in no way says that russia gate was a hoax. In fact, he said if he could say that trump campaign was innocent he would but he could not, right in the report. This can be verified by reading the mueller report. Cheers gww
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,789
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: gww]
#28403392 - 07/21/23 10:55 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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I mean there was definitely a lot uncovered and found to be true, but in the end the final conclusion, however it came to be, didn't line up with the title accusation, by foul play, whim, legalese or other.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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koods
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
#28403396 - 07/21/23 11:13 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Sure, I'll start. Russia-Gate was a hoax to try and keep Trump out of office.
How would it have kept him out of office? Nobody even knew Trump was being investigated until after the election. Everyone knew Hilary was under investigation due to leaks and public statements by FBI officials, but they were totally mum on any investigation into Trump.
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koods
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
#28403401 - 07/21/23 11:18 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: I mean there was definitely a lot uncovered and found to be true, but in the end the final conclusion, however it came to be, didn't line up with the title accusation, by foul play, whim, legalese or other.
The manafort investigation was never completed. Manafort volunteered to be a Trumps manager and then used his position to forward a pro-Russian agenda. He was exchanging campaign data with a Russian agent. He worked for the Russian puppet president of Ukraine: dude was severely compromised.
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gww
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
#28403419 - 07/22/23 12:20 AM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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I would just respond in this manner. Walk like a duck talk, like a duck, must have a bit of pull on law makers as the senate just passed legislation making it where a president can not pull out of nato with out a two third vote of the other body of government. The impetus to do that has absolutely zero to do with fear that biden would pull out. Now, I do not consider when using real actions, a game of connect the dots as being completely out of line when considering the motivation for them to shore up nato participation in this fashion. They saw something to make them want to do this. Cheers gww
Edited by gww (07/22/23 12:21 AM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: koods]
#28403516 - 07/22/23 04:04 AM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
Sure, I'll start. Russia-Gate was a hoax to try and keep Trump out of office.
How would it have kept him out of office? Nobody even knew Trump was being investigated until after the election.
I pointed the hoax out before the election.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 3
#28403703 - 07/22/23 09:27 AM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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There is no hoax. The Russians did interfere with the election. Trump did specifically ask them to. The former was made clear by the Mueller report, which you love to cite as a source. The latter was done on national television.
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gww
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Enlil]
#28403709 - 07/22/23 09:41 AM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Very early on. Convicted spy asking set up question or accidental coincidence, Trump knowing it was coming or being set up, fact or conspiracy, what is the math.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/03/trump-spoke-to-a-russian-activist-about-ending-sanctions-just-weeks-after-launching-his-campaign/
Same spy with nra and 30 million contribution from russia. Is it wonder to wonder? How does one connect dots and when does common sense come into play? Cheers gww
Edited by gww (07/22/23 09:44 AM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Enlil]
#28403805 - 07/22/23 11:50 AM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: There is no hoax. The Russians did interfere with the election. Trump did specifically ask them to. The former was made clear by the Mueller report, which you love to cite as a source.
So we needed a 3 year investigation to figure out that Trump said this?
I couldn't told you that without a witch hunt investigation.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#28403808 - 07/22/23 11:51 AM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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You might have. I didn't. Even after the three-year investigation, you still don't believe Russia interfered with the election because RT told you otherwise.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: gww]
#28403816 - 07/22/23 12:00 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
gww said: Very early on. Convicted spy asking set up question or accidental coincidence, Trump knowing it was coming or being set up, fact or conspiracy, what is the math.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/03/trump-spoke-to-a-russian-activist-about-ending-sanctions-just-weeks-after-launching-his-campaign/
Same spy with nra and 30 million contribution from russia. Is it wonder to wonder? How does one connect dots and when does common sense come into play? Cheers gww
So Trump took questions at a PUBLIC Q&A session and said he wants the world to stop hating the US and wants better relations with Russia. You think that's Trump colluding with Russia on election interference??? Really?!?!?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28403817 - 07/22/23 12:01 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
Sure, I'll start. Russia-Gate was a hoax to try and keep Trump out of office.
How would it have kept him out of office? Nobody even knew Trump was being investigated until after the election.
I pointed the hoax out before the election.
The hoax? Russia did hack the DNC. Why do you continue to lie about this?
You still haven’t explained how a secret investigation was supposed to hurt trump
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koods
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28403831 - 07/22/23 12:14 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
gww said: Very early on. Convicted spy asking set up question or accidental coincidence, Trump knowing it was coming or being set up, fact or conspiracy, what is the math.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/03/trump-spoke-to-a-russian-activist-about-ending-sanctions-just-weeks-after-launching-his-campaign/
Same spy with nra and 30 million contribution from russia. Is it wonder to wonder? How does one connect dots and when does common sense come into play? Cheers gww
So Trump took questions at a PUBLIC Q&A session and said he wants the world to stop hating the US and wants better relations with Russia. You think that's Trump colluding with Russia on election interference??? Really?!?!?
People like trump are the reason why people hate the US. If we end up electing that moral degenerate and buffoon to office again, the standing of this country in the eyes of the world is going to be shattered.
I can’t believe you still fall for trumps meaningless pronouncements. Trump said the other day that he would make Putin and Ukraine make a deal to end the war and if Putin refused he would give Ukraine everything they ever wanted in terms of weapons. Lol
Congress just passed a law that a president must get congress to approve leaving NATO - just in case trump wins.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
Edited by koods (07/22/23 12:20 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Enlil]
#28403840 - 07/22/23 12:20 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Even after the three-year investigation, you still don't believe Russia interfered with the election because RT told you otherwise.
No Enlil. After a three-year investigation I still don't believe there were any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump with respect to interference in the 2016 presidential election because they couldn't find any evidence of it, and you can't point anything out except something Trump already said on national TV.
I was one of the few who knew this was a hoax before the election even started, all you can do is hurl insults. You should be banned for ad hominem attacks, like Stable Genius is now banned again.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: koods]
#28403841 - 07/22/23 12:21 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: The hoax? Russia did hack the DNC. Why do you continue to lie about this?
How does that show coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: koods]
#28403845 - 07/22/23 12:25 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: People like trump are the reason why people hate the US. If we end up electing that moral degenerate and buffoon to office again, the standing of this country in the eyes of the world is going to be shattered.
People hate the US because Trump wants to be more friendly with other countries of the world? I'd love to see your evidence for that.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28403848 - 07/22/23 12:28 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
koods said: The hoax? Russia did hack the DNC. Why do you continue to lie about this?
How does that show coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump?
Russia stole emails from democrats and then weaponized them to help Donald Trump get elected. There was plenty of other circumstantial evidence that the Trump campaign was working with Russians. After the leaks, the FBI had no choice to but to investigate. Yet, they still managed to keep that investigation secret, while taking endlessly about the Clinton investigation.
--------------------
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koods
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28403850 - 07/22/23 12:31 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
koods said: People like trump are the reason why people hate the US. If we end up electing that moral degenerate and buffoon to office again, the standing of this country in the eyes of the world is going to be shattered.
People hate the US because Trump wants to be more friendly with other countries of the world? I'd love to see your evidence for that.
I never said that at all. Jesus Christ you are incapable of not misrepresenting what other people say. The rest of the world will think much worse of this country if we re-elect a man most people consider totally unfit to be president of the United States - and someone who is facing multiple criminal indictments.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
Edited by koods (07/22/23 12:33 PM)
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Enlil
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28403852 - 07/22/23 12:38 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Even after the three-year investigation, you still don't believe Russia interfered with the election because RT told you otherwise.
No Enlil. After a three-year investigation I still don't believe there were any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump with respect to interference in the 2016 presidential election because they couldn't find any evidence of it, and you can't point anything out except something Trump already said on national TV.
That's not what I asked, though. As Koods pointed out, you should try to address statements and claims ACTUALLY MADE instead of ones you make up.
And link my ad hominem attack, please.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: koods]
#28403887 - 07/22/23 01:12 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: Russia stole emails from democrats and then weaponized them to help Donald Trump get elected.
Even if it were true that Russia stole the emails (which is doubtful), how were they "weaponized to help Donald Trump get elected"?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28403888 - 07/22/23 01:15 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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You don’t think the leaked emails hurt the Clinton campaign?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Enlil] 1
#28403907 - 07/22/23 01:31 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Even after the three-year investigation, you still don't believe Russia interfered with the election because RT told you otherwise.
No Enlil. After a three-year investigation I still don't believe there were any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump with respect to interference in the 2016 presidential election because they couldn't find any evidence of it, and you can't point anything out except something Trump already said on national TV.
That's not what I asked, though. As Koods pointed out, you should try to address statements and claims ACTUALLY MADE instead of ones you make up.
I started this with "Russia-Gate was a hoax to try and keep Trump out of office." As you know, Russia-Gate was about the government's attempt to find any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump with respect to interference in the 2016 presidential election, which we learned was a made up allegation by the Clinton campaign.
If you changed the topic on me, because I was right, then that's great!
Quote:
Enlil said: And link my ad hominem attack, please.
Here:
Quote:
Enlil said: ...you still don't believe Russia interfered with the election because RT told you otherwise.
No Enlil, RT didn't tell me that. American media did. When can't argue my points, you go for make believe ad hominem attacks.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: koods] 1
#28403908 - 07/22/23 01:32 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: You don’t think the leaked emails hurt the Clinton campaign?
How do you think they did? If Russia even had them, did they ever turn them over to Trump?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#28403913 - 07/22/23 01:40 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Even after the three-year investigation, you still don't believe Russia interfered with the election because RT told you otherwise.
No Enlil. After a three-year investigation I still don't believe there were any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump with respect to interference in the 2016 presidential election because they couldn't find any evidence of it, and you can't point anything out except something Trump already said on national TV.
That's not what I asked, though. As Koods pointed out, you should try to address statements and claims ACTUALLY MADE instead of ones you make up.
I started this with "Russia-Gate was a hoax to try and keep Trump out of office." As you know, Russia-Gate was about the government's attempt to find any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump with respect to interference in the 2016 presidential election, which we learned was a made up allegation by the Clinton campaign.
If you changed the topic on me, because I was right, then that's great!
Quote:
Enlil said: And link my ad hominem attack, please.
Here:
Quote:
Enlil said: ...you still don't believe Russia interfered with the election because RT told you otherwise.
No Enlil, RT didn't tell me that. American media did. When can't argue my points, you go for make believe ad hominem attacks.
You really should look up the meaning of terms before you use them. That's neither an ad hominem nor an attack. In contrast, Stable Genius was banned (for a few hours) for calling a member of this site a "pathetic egotistical conceited fool." If you're paying attention, I'm sure you'll figure out the difference.
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koods
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28403955 - 07/22/23 02:04 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
koods said: You don’t think the leaked emails hurt the Clinton campaign?
How do you think they did? If Russia even had them, did they ever turn them over to Trump?
I’m not even going to waste my time looking because I’m 100% sure you thought the leaks were devastating to the Clinton campaign and democrats in general at the time.
--------------------
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: koods]
#28403957 - 07/22/23 02:05 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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And you'd be 100% wrong. 
Nice dodge of my question though!
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28403973 - 07/22/23 02:13 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Even after the three-year investigation, you still don't believe Russia interfered with the election because RT told you otherwise.
No Enlil. After a three-year investigation I still don't believe there were any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump with respect to interference in the 2016 presidential election because they couldn't find any evidence of it, and you can't point anything out except something Trump already said on national TV.
I was one of the few who knew this was a hoax before the election even started, all you can do is hurl insults. You should be banned for ad hominem attacks, like Stable Genius is now banned again.
I think Fal knows Russia meddled in the election with generic political propaganda and hacking etc.
So it's yes to Russia interfered in the election.
Trump had several associates arrested who he pardoned, but that he or specifically his campaign were colluding wasn't concluded.
That said, there's no reason for Trump to be involved himself. Russia has done it before and was going to do it again. I mean troll farms and hack still to come in 2024.
The investigation doesn't come off as a hoax to me, just an accusation that indicated wrongdoing on Russia's part, and many obstruction attempts from Trump associates, but not specifically a link between Russia's wrong doing and the T campaign.
Maybe the obstruction worked, trump did pardon those who fell to charges on it. If his associates didn't obstruct would it have been a different story? Well, that's purely speculation and unfortunately not a productive path to go down.
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Enlil
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28403977 - 07/22/23 02:16 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: And you'd be 100% wrong. 
Nice dodge of my question though!
You're right on this. By the time of the email scandal, you were a full-fledged trump supporter.
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gww
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Enlil]
#28403978 - 07/22/23 02:16 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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FW You keep saying mueller cleared trump by not finding proof and that leaves out all the obstruction of justice which stopped any effort to get at the truth and so mueller pointed out he could not say trump was innocent of collusion and would if he could.
You keep taking one thing and wanting to address it in a vacuum by it's self and doing your best not to let other incidents added with them and see what it adds up to.
Trump defense did exactly the same thing during his second impeachment by trying to keep everything that happened out and alleging the only thing that mattered was one sentence in a speech. Even the republican senators did not buy that and founded their vote on him already being out of office by their own mouth at closing.
The American people are not so dumb to have not seen it all (which are facts) and not being able to use common sense to connect the dots would not make sense to most. If there is no smoking gun that shows a tape of trump saying he was colluding as far as voting is concerned, that fact would not change that it can be assessed by what did happen still causes out comes that are bad for us. They can connect the dots. It would be no difference in a trial for hit and run. The jury will be shown the know facts and if they can not get a confession from the person that he swerved his car and hit somebody on purpose, it will still be a fact somebody is dead and he was involved and the jury may say manslaughter instead of murder. Reason, because we still don't want people to die through the actions of others. Trumps actions, around what others did, shows outcome, he admits outcome by siding with Russia and outcome is bad in this case and should be countered with whatever power the American people do hold.
You can not take every little thing and make some excuse for it or even misrepresent it, like saying the mueller report exonerated trump, and make that the whole ball game. Other people lived through it as well and know better. Cheers gww
Edited by gww (07/22/23 03:03 PM)
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Enlil
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: gww] 2
#28403979 - 07/22/23 02:18 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
gww said:
You can not take every little thing and make some excuse for it or even misrepresent it
Do not underestimate his misrepresentation skills. He absolutely can take every little thing and make some excuse for it/misrepresent it.
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sudly
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: koods] 2
#28403991 - 07/22/23 02:28 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
koods said: People like trump are the reason why people hate the US. If we end up electing that moral degenerate and buffoon to office again, the standing of this country in the eyes of the world is going to be shattered.
People hate the US because Trump wants to be more friendly with other countries of the world? I'd love to see your evidence for that.
This is a great example of a straw man and provides a good case study for the phenomena.
Fal is using a straw man argument to respond to Koods comment. A straw man argument involves misrepresenting or exaggerating an opponent's position to make it easier to attack.
Instead of directly addressing Koods original argument that people like Trump are the reason for the US's negative perception, Fal distorts the statement, claiming that people hate the US because Trump wants to be more friendly with other countries.
This misrepresentation allows Fal to focus on a narrow and irrelevant aspect of the discussion, avoiding the central point made by Koods about Trumps character and behavior being the cause of the US's negative image.
Additionally, Koods statement was expressing an opinion rather than making a specific factual claim, making Fals demand for evidence irrelevant in this context.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Enlil]
#28404010 - 07/22/23 02:43 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: And you'd be 100% wrong. 
Nice dodge of my question though!
You're right on this.
Thank you.
Quote:
Enlil said: By the time of the email scandal, you were a full-fledged trump supporter.
I've never been much of a Trump supporter. But I do think he's better than Biden.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: gww]
#28404055 - 07/22/23 03:06 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
gww said: FW You keep saying mueller cleared trump by not finding proof and that leaves out all the obstruction of justice which stopped any effort to get at the truth
How did it stop any effort? Or is that just copium?
Quote:
gww said: You keep taking one thing and wanting to address it in a vacuum by it's self and doing your best not to let other incidents added with them and see what it adds up to.
No, I welcome other incidents. But no one has anything to share. Just basically "trust me Fal, there's more out there, trust me! Except there's nothing to share because... obstruction of justice!"
Quote:
gww said: The American people are not so dumb to have not seen it all (which are facts) and not being able to use common sense to connect the dots would not make sense to most. If there is no smoking gun that shows a tape of trump saying he was colluding as far as voting is concerned, that fact would not change that it can be assessed by what did happen still causes out comes that are bad for us. They can connect the dots.
Holy copium batman! Can you connect the dots for me? 
Quote:
gww said: You can not take every little thing and make some excuse for it or even misrepresent it, like saying the mueller report exonerated trump, and make that the whole ball game.
But that's not the whole ball game. I've shown evidence in my first post above that this whole story was created by the Clinton campaign.
Quote:
gww said: Other people lived through it as well and know better.
No, other people just don't like to be wrong, and they don't know better, they're just taking some serious copium.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Enlil]
#28404057 - 07/22/23 03:06 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
gww said:
You can not take every little thing and make some excuse for it or even misrepresent it
Do not underestimate his misrepresentation skills. He absolutely can take every little thing and make some excuse for it/misrepresent it.
What am I misrepresenting?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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christopera
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28404063 - 07/22/23 03:10 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Your confirmation bias knows no limit. You just haven't accepted that yet.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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Enlil
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28404065 - 07/22/23 03:11 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Oh so much. In this thread alone, you completely misrepresented Koods' claim.
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budmanman
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Enlil]
#28404071 - 07/22/23 03:15 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: There is no hoax. The Russians did interfere with the election. Trump did specifically ask them to. The former was made clear by the Mueller report, which you love to cite as a source. The latter was done on national television.
That is right, Russia did interfere with the election. They posted memes online, huge interference.

This is why Trump won.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/russian-trolls-didnt-need-millions-to-sow-chaos-they-had-jesus?ref=scroll
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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Enlil
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: budmanman]
#28404073 - 07/22/23 03:16 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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You think it made that much of a difference? I think that's absurd, but you're entitled to believe what you want to believe.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Enlil]
#28404074 - 07/22/23 03:17 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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I showed a video of Trump saying we need to be more friendly to other countries of the world. Koods then responded with "people like trump are the reason why people hate the US".
My interpretation was very reasonable based on the video, but if koods insists his response to my video had nothing to do with the actual video, I'll believe him.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28404078 - 07/22/23 03:19 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Every single person who read his response understood what he meant. Even you understood what he meant. You just tried to twist it into something that you'd prefer him to have said so you can scoff at it.
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gww
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28404079 - 07/22/23 03:19 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
What am I misrepresenting?
An unwillingness to take everything that happened from 2015 till now and trying to make excuse for one at a time leaving the rest out is a misrepresentation of sorts in its self. You did make excuse for russian spy but left out nra and russian 30 million also connected to said spy and put in context with mueller etc. I had it mentioned at me by a different poster in a comment that might fit here toward my question to you on how you discuss issues. It goes, was it the load or the last straw that broke the camel's back? Cheers gww
Edited by gww (07/22/23 03:23 PM)
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koods
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28404137 - 07/22/23 04:07 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
No, I welcome other incidents. But no one has anything to share. Just basically "trust me Fal, there's more out there, trust me! Except there's nothing to share because... obstruction of justice!"
Mueller specifically noted that their investigation into Manaforts Russian contacts was stymied by lies and obstruction by witnesses and Manafort himself.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Enlil]
#28404139 - 07/22/23 04:10 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Every single person who read his response understood what he meant. Even you understood what he meant. You just tried to twist it into something that you'd prefer him to have said so you can scoff at it.
No, I thought he was responding to my video. If you knew he was just making a random Trump is a big fat poo poo head comment, good for you! I thought he was responding to my video.
You said "Every single person who read his response understood what he meant." How do you know this?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28404142 - 07/22/23 04:11 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I showed a video of Trump saying we need to be more friendly to other countries of the world. Koods then responded with "people like trump are the reason why people hate the US".
My interpretation was very reasonable based on the video, but if koods insists his response to my video had nothing to do with the actual video, I'll believe him. 
No need to interpret anything. I said exactly why trump makes the US look bad - he’s a moral degenerate.
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Enlil
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28404143 - 07/22/23 04:12 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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And again you've misrepresented koods'statement.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: gww]
#28404144 - 07/22/23 04:13 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
gww said:
Quote:
What am I misrepresenting?
An unwillingness to take everything that happened from 2015 till now and trying to make excuse for one at a time leaving the rest out is a misrepresentation of sorts in its self. You did make excuse for russian spy but left out nra and russian 30 million also connected to said spy and put in context with mueller etc.
What does any of that have to do with the Trump campaign conspiring or coordinating with the Russian government in its election interference activities?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: koods]
#28404146 - 07/22/23 04:15 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: Mueller specifically noted that their investigation into Manaforts Russian contacts was stymied by lies and obstruction by witnesses and Manafort himself.
What does Manafort have to do with the Trump campaign conspiring or coordinating with the Russian government in its election interference activities?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28404148 - 07/22/23 04:15 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Every single person who read his response understood what he meant. Even you understood what he meant. You just tried to twist it into something that you'd prefer him to have said so you can scoff at it.
No, I thought he was responding to my video. If you knew he was just making a random Trump is a big fat poo poo head comment, good for you! I thought he was responding to my video.
You said "Every single person who read his response understood what he meant." How do you know this?
It’s very simple statement that stands on its own. I don’t believe for a second you were confused by what I said.
Quote:
People like trump are the reason why people hate the US. If we end up electing that moral degenerate and buffoon to office again, the standing of this country in the eyes of the world is going to be shattered.
--------------------
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gww
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: koods]
#28404150 - 07/22/23 04:16 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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And he was by 12 jurors a sexual assaulter and by the judge's published statement, a rapist of the real trial. This is not a conspiracy theory but a fact. Cheers gww
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Enlil
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28404153 - 07/22/23 04:19 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Every year, your understanding of issues, at least as described and argued by you, gets less nuanced and more one-dimensional. You become less interested in seeing truth and more interested in confirming your beliefs, even if it means clinging to the shadiest of sources and disregarding highly credible ones.
What happened to you?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: koods]
#28404154 - 07/22/23 04:20 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: No need to interpret anything. I said exactly why trump makes the US look bad - he’s a moral degenerate.
Ok, so I was right - you weren't responding to my video, you were just making a random 'Trump's a big fat poo poo head' post.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28404155 - 07/22/23 04:21 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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And for the third time... you've misrepresented his statement.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: gww]
#28404156 - 07/22/23 04:21 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
gww said: And he was by 12 jurors a sexual assaulter and by the judge's published statement, a rapist of the real trial. This is not a conspiracy theory but a fact. Cheers gww
What does that have to do with the Trump campaign conspiring or coordinating with the Russian government in its election interference activities?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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gww
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28404160 - 07/22/23 04:26 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
gww said:
Quote:
What am I misrepresenting?
An unwillingness to take everything that happened from 2015 till now and trying to make excuse for one at a time leaving the rest out is a misrepresentation of sorts in its self. You did make excuse for russian spy but left out nra and russian 30 million also connected to said spy and put in context with mueller etc.
What does any of that have to do with the Trump campaign conspiring or coordinating with the Russian government in its election interference activities?
I don't understand you question at all? Is you question trying to state the spy/russia/money stuff was unrelated to the election going on? Did you really read my prior statements of just skim read and miss stuff? Cheers gww
Ps are you trying to say collusion is the only topic, and if so have you got off track and now trying to keep me on? I dunno?
Edited by gww (07/22/23 04:30 PM)
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28404162 - 07/22/23 04:29 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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The government doesn't sponsor msm, their advertisers and donors do, and those legacy media organisations often tend to represent their monied interests, that said, because the funding isn't from the state, it's not right to shut down anything for being from msm in a generalising way.
If you have specific concerns with an author or network as related to the claims they make, please share, otherwise it's not productive or true to generalise as such.
*I see you deleted your post claiming the government tells msm what to say.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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koods
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28404163 - 07/22/23 04:30 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
koods said: No need to interpret anything. I said exactly why trump makes the US look bad - he’s a moral degenerate.
Ok, so I was right - you weren't responding to my video, you were just making a random 'Trump's a big fat poo poo head' post.
What do you mean you were right that I wasn’t responding to the video. You’ve spent the last page telling us you thought I was responding to the video.
And I did respond to the video in a separate paragraph.
--------------------
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: gww]
#28404167 - 07/22/23 04:34 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
gww said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: What does any of that have to do with the Trump campaign conspiring or coordinating with the Russian government in its election interference activities?
I don't understand you question at all? Is you question trying to state the spy/russia/money stuff was unrelated to the election going on?
Please read my original post.
I'm saying it was unrelated to Trump conspiring or coordinating with the Russian government on election interference activities.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28404169 - 07/22/23 04:36 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
koods said: Mueller specifically noted that their investigation into Manaforts Russian contacts was stymied by lies and obstruction by witnesses and Manafort himself.
What does Manafort have to do with the Trump campaign conspiring or coordinating with the Russian government in its election interference activities?
That’s what they were trying to figure out. Why was he sharing campaign data with Russian agents? Why did he remibe support for Ukraine from the Republican platform? Why did he lie about his Russian contacts?
--------------------
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gww
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: koods]
#28404176 - 07/22/23 04:44 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Fw Do you realize that people in america can and have been convicted in conspiracies with out having coordinated with each other?
I was not responding to your first post though my response, in my mind would fit, and is factual. Especially since I took the position that regardless of the spoken communication between them not being as important as the actual out come for america that both worked towards. Using each other if you will. Cheers gww
Edited by gww (07/22/23 04:46 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: koods]
#28404177 - 07/22/23 04:44 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: That’s what they were trying to figure out. Why was he sharing campaign data with Russian agents?
To show that Trump was a serious contender.
Quote:
koods said: Why did he remibe support for Ukraine from the Republican platform?
Why should he support Ukraine over Russia if he believes in world peace?
Quote:
koods said: Why did he lie about his Russian contacts?
Tell me what you're referring to and maybe I can explain.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28404181 - 07/22/23 04:47 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Because Russia is the aggressor
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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gww
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#28404194 - 07/22/23 04:58 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
To show that Trump was a serious contender.
If trump is not colluding with russia, why does it need to know he is a contender during an election? They would figure that out if he won.
Quote:
Why should he support Ukraine over Russia if he believes in world peace?
Why have you supported that russia should win and had no choice but to invade? If Ukraine won and the fighting stopped there would be peace. If russia had not invaded there would be peace. Wanting russia to win is only war like and in no way a position that is only about peace. You pick a winner whether anyone likes it or not and that is peace? Your winner invades and that is peace? Cheers gww
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Enlil
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: gww]
#28404197 - 07/22/23 05:02 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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I'm sure death brings peace. Russia has been responsible for a lot of deaths, both russian and Ukrainian....in that way, Russia has brought some peace to some people.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: gww]
#28404201 - 07/22/23 05:05 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
gww said:
Quote:
To show that Trump was a serious contender.
If trump is not colluding with russia, why does it need to know he is a contender during an election? They would figure that out if he won.
Quote:
Why should he support Ukraine over Russia if he believes in world peace?
Why have you supported that russia should win and had no choice but to invade? If Ukraine won and the fighting stopped there would be peace. If russia had not invaded there would be peace. Wanting russia to win is only war like and in no way a position that is only about peace. You pick a winner whether anyone likes it or not and that is peace? Your winner invades and that is peace? Cheers gww
I do not want this to delve into what is already being discussed in the Ukraine war thread, any Ukraine war references here should have multiple, non-state funded or affiliated sources.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (07/22/23 11:47 PM)
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koods
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28404386 - 07/22/23 07:49 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
koods said: That’s what they were trying to figure out. Why was he sharing campaign data with Russian agents?
To show that Trump was a serious contender.
Quote:
koods said: Why did he remibe support for Ukraine from the Republican platform?
Why should he support Ukraine over Russia if he believes in world peace?
Quote:
koods said: Why did he lie about his Russian contacts?
Tell me what you're referring to and maybe I can explain.
He went on meet the press or one of those Sunday shows and was asked about his connections to Russia and he said he had none. One of the reasons he was fired as campaign manager is because that statement was revealed to be a lie
--------------------
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budmanman
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: koods]
#28404407 - 07/22/23 07:57 PM (6 months, 3 days ago) |
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"Trump refuses to listen to anybody"
And that is why he is the best candidate.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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nooneman


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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: budmanman]
#28404650 - 07/22/23 11:49 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Trump wants to be president forever. Permanently.
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budmanman
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: nooneman]
#28404657 - 07/23/23 12:08 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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As any good president who loves his job would want.
Most get their ass worn out and hated it and come out the other end of being president looking like aged milk

But trump Aged like wine
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: budmanman]
#28404683 - 07/23/23 01:02 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Not really a place for whatever you're implying, if you have policies you'd like to bring up or address, go ahead.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly] 1
#28404768 - 07/23/23 03:40 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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He's implying that Trump is sexy.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: koods]
#28404776 - 07/23/23 03:58 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
koods said: Why did he lie about his Russian contacts?
Tell me what you're referring to and maybe I can explain.
He went on meet the press or one of those Sunday shows and was asked about his connections to Russia and he said he had none. One of the reasons he was fired as campaign manager is because that statement was revealed to be a lie
No, Manafort had ties to Ukraine.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28404796 - 07/23/23 04:30 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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If you want to make claims like Manafort has ties to Ukraine after saying that you can explain, please do so and reference where possible from non state or non state affiliated sources.
E.g. here it is claimed that Manafort had ties to Yanukovych and pro Russian political parties within Ukraine. That he lied on his interactions with Kilimnik, and that Kilimnik was suspected of being an intermediary for the Russian military intelligence operation to hack into Democratic emails.
Quote:
Manafort set to work rebranding the party with poll-tested messaging and improved stagecraft. Before long, the Party of Regions was in power in Kyiv. One of his key aides in Ukraine was, allegedly, a Russian spy.
The Senate Intelligence Committee report on Trump and Russia said Konstantin Kilimnik was both “a Russian intelligence officer” and “an integral part of Manafort’s operations in Ukraine and Russia.
”According to the Senate report, Manafort met Kilimnik twice in person while working on the Trump campaign, messaged with him electronically and shared “sensitive campaign polling data” with him.
Senate investigators wrote in their report that they suspected Kilimnik served as “a channel for coordination” on the Russian military intelligence operation to hack into Democratic emails and leak them.
The Senate intel report notes that in about a dozen interviews with Special Counsel Robert Mueller, Manafort “lied consistently” about “one issue in particular: his interactions with Kilimnik.”
Manafort didn’t make it to Election Day on the Trump campaign. In August 2016, The New York Times revealed that handwritten ledgers recovered from Yanukovych’s estate showed nearly $13 million in previously undisclosed payments to Manafort from Yanukovych and his pro-Russian party. Manafort was pushed out of his job as Trump’s campaign chairman less than a week later.
After Trump won the election, the Senate report says, Manafort and Kilimnik worked together on a proposed “plan” for Ukraine that would create an Autonomous Republic of Donbas in separatist-run southeast Ukraine, on the Russian border. Manafort went so far as to work with a pollster on a survey on public attitudes to Yanukovych, the deposed president. The plan only would need a “wink” from the new U.S. president, Kilimnik wrote to Manafort in an email.
https://www.propublica.org/article/lets-recall-what-exactly-paul-manafort-and-rudy-giuliani-were-doing-in-ukraine
All in all, if he obstructed justice it worked, because he took the fall for financial crimes but was inevitably pardoned by Trump.
Thus the interactions between Manafort and Kilimnik are not clarified, and the specifics of what ties Manafort may have within Ukraine are a bit clearer.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
#28404812 - 07/23/23 04:57 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Yanukovych was Ukrainian, and Manafort was a tax cheat.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28404823 - 07/23/23 05:10 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Are you implying anything with that or just saying it for the sake of saying it?
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
#28404866 - 07/23/23 06:14 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Koods claimed Manafort "was asked about his connections to Russia and he said he had none. One of the reasons he was fired as campaign manager is because that statement was revealed to be a lie."
Manafort didn't have connections to Russia, he had connections to Ukraine.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Sulfurshelfsean
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28404878 - 07/23/23 06:26 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
koods said: No need to interpret anything. I said exactly why trump makes the US look bad - he’s a moral degenerate.
Ok, so I was right - you weren't responding to my video, you were just making a random 'Trump's a big fat poo poo head' post.
There's the twisting of the words and the confirmation bias again...
--------------------
   Everything is better when it is done ON TOP OF A MOUNTAIN!
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koods
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28404883 - 07/23/23 06:33 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Koods claimed Manafort "was asked about his connections to Russia and he said he had none. One of the reasons he was fired as campaign manager is because that statement was revealed to be a lie."
Manafort didn't have connections to Russia, he had connections to Ukraine.
His Ukrainian connections were Russian spies
--------------------
NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28404915 - 07/23/23 07:17 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Koods claimed Manafort "was asked about his connections to Russia and he said he had none. One of the reasons he was fired as campaign manager is because that statement was revealed to be a lie."
Manafort didn't have connections to Russia, he had connections to Ukraine.
Koods claimed Manafort was asked about his connections to Russia and Manafort said he had none, because Manafort was asked about his interactions with Kilimnik and Manafort lied consistently about the issue.
Kilimnik, who had connections to Russia.
Quote:
The Senate intel report notes that in about a dozen interviews with Special Counsel Robert Mueller, Manafort “lied consistently” about “one issue in particular: his interactions with Kilimnik.”
The Senate Intelligence Committee report on Trump and Russia said Konstantin Kilimnik was both “a Russian intelligence officer” and “an integral part of Manafort’s operations in Ukraine and Russia.
Please specify what you are referring to when you say Manafort has connections to Ukraine, I've already provided details of this. Are you implying anything with the statement, do you have specific names or organisations you think Manafort has connections to within Ukraine? Because Manafort certainly had connections to pro Russian political parties within Ukraine as I've laid out and provided evidence for earlier.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Ice9
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: budmanman]
#28404964 - 07/23/23 07:55 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
budmanman said: As any good president who loves his job would want.
The BEST president, George Washington, disagrees with you emphatically
Quote:
As president, in a time when there were no term limits and many would have supported a lifetime role, Washington stepped down after the end of his second term—setting an important precedent that lasted until the middle of the 20th century.
Any person that would want to be president for life is categorically disqualified to be president.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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Brian Jones
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28405147 - 07/23/23 10:29 AM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Koods claimed Manafort "was asked about his connections to Russia and he said he had none. One of the reasons he was fired as campaign manager is because that statement was revealed to be a lie."
Manafort didn't have connections to Russia, he had connections to Ukraine.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1115092 A GOP dominated Senate committee concluded in August 2020 that Manafort's ties to people involved in Russian Intelligence while he was Trump's campaign manager represented a grave counterintelligence threat by creating opportunities for Russian Intelligence Services to exert influence over, and acquire confidential information on, the Trump campaign.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Brian Jones]
#28405333 - 07/23/23 03:19 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Manafort didn't have connections to Russia, he had connections to Ukraine.
His Ukrainian connections were Russian spies
There is zero evidence of that, just wishful thinking by anti-Trumpers.
And for those of you that said Kilimnik had Russian 'connections', just about everyone in Ukraine has Russian 'connections'.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Ice9
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#28405343 - 07/23/23 03:33 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Manafort didn't have connections to Russia, he had connections to Ukraine.
His Ukrainian connections were Russian spies
There is zero evidence of that, just wishful thinking by anti-Trumpers.
And for those of you that said Kilimnik had Russian 'connections', just about everyone in Ukraine has Russian 'connections'. 
So let me get this straight. Manafort had no Russian connections, but
Quote:
Kilimnik had Russian 'connections', just about everyone in Ukraine has Russian 'connections'.
those Russian connections don't count? So if I had close ties to a Russian spy, I would have no existing Russian connections, as long as that spy was in Ukraine? That is exceptionally weak logic. Nonsensical even
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Ice9]
#28405355 - 07/23/23 03:52 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Ice9 said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Manafort didn't have connections to Russia, he had connections to Ukraine.
His Ukrainian connections were Russian spies
There is zero evidence of that, just wishful thinking by anti-Trumpers.
And for those of you that said Kilimnik had Russian 'connections', just about everyone in Ukraine has Russian 'connections'. 
So let me get this straight. Manafort had no Russian connections, but
Quote:
Kilimnik had Russian 'connections', just about everyone in Ukraine has Russian 'connections'.
those Russian connections don't count?
Don't count as what? Manafort had Ukrainian connections, who had Russian connections. And none of Manafort's connections were shown to be Russian spies.
Quote:
Ice9 said: So if I had close ties to a Russian spy, I would have no existing Russian connections, as long as that spy was in Ukraine? That is exceptionally weak logic. Nonsensical even 
Yes, that is exceptionally weak logic. Nonsensical even.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Ice9
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28405358 - 07/23/23 03:58 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/russian-oligarch-oleg-vladimirovich-deripaska-and-associates-indicted-sanctions-evasion-and
Quote:
According to court documents, Oleg Vladimirovich Deripaska, aka Oleg Mukhamedshin, 52; and Natalia Mikhaylovna Bardakova, aka Natalya Mikhaylovna Bardakova, 45, both citizens of the Russian Federation (Russia),
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/18/us/politics/paul-manafort-konstantin-kilimnik.html
Quote:
Mr. Manafort recognized the Kremlin’s interests, the report said. “This model can greatly benefit the Putin government if employed at the correct levels with the appropriate commitments to success,” he wrote in a memo to Mr. Deripaska.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Ice9]
#28405367 - 07/23/23 04:09 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Ice9 said: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/18/us/politics/paul-manafort-konstantin-kilimnik.html
Quote:
Mr. Manafort recognized the Kremlin’s interests, the report said. “This model can greatly benefit the Putin government if employed at the correct levels with the appropriate commitments to success,” he wrote in a memo to Mr. Deripaska.
So Manafort recognized peace with Russia would better be achieved with Ukrainian president Yanukovych. What's wrong with that? And Yanukovych is Ukrainian.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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gww
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#28405379 - 07/23/23 04:17 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
So Manafort recognized peace with Russia would better be achieved with Ukrainian president Yanukovych. What's wrong with that? And Yanukovych is Ukrainian.
I think I am getting it now. By your logic, it would be ok to be a spy for russia in an attempt to subjugate Ukrainian interest for the big picture of peace. Lets forget that would basically mean slavery for Ukraine but at least peace. I am not putting words in you mouth, that is what your words are saying to me. Maybe that is also why you want russia to win against American interest. If we can just please russia enough, there will be peace. Cheers
Edited by gww (07/23/23 04:18 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: gww]
#28405388 - 07/23/23 04:26 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
gww said:
Quote:
So Manafort recognized peace with Russia would better be achieved with Ukrainian president Yanukovych. What's wrong with that? And Yanukovych is Ukrainian.
I think I am getting it now. By your logic, it would be ok to be a spy for russia in an attempt to subjugate Ukrainian interest for the big picture of peace. Lets forget that would basically mean slavery for Ukraine but at least peace. I am not putting words in you mouth, that is what your words are saying to me. Maybe that is also why you want russia to win against American interest. If we can just please russia enough, there will be peace. Cheers
Manafort was not proven to be working with Russian spies.
What do you mean by "an attempt to subjugate Ukrainian interest" and "American interest" above? What are the 'interests' that you speak of. That should make this conversation much more interesting (you don't seem to think peace would have been in the interest of Ukraine).
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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gww
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#28405393 - 07/23/23 04:28 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Peace at what cost?
We have been over the rest of this above, why reinvent the wheel unless you are contesting something that can probably be pulled by some position you already took above for everyone to see. Cheers
Edited by gww (07/23/23 04:32 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: gww]
#28405406 - 07/23/23 04:43 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
gww said: Peace at what cost?
That's EXACTLY what I'm asking you.
To me, the "cost" to Ukraine is getting cheaper energy, saving hundreds of thousands of lives, letting go of Crimea which don't like Ukraine anyway, and keeping your democratically elected leader.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (07/23/23 04:55 PM)
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Sulfurshelfsean
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Ice9]
#28405407 - 07/23/23 04:45 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Ice9 said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Manafort didn't have connections to Russia, he had connections to Ukraine.
His Ukrainian connections were Russian spies
There is zero evidence of that, just wishful thinking by anti-Trumpers.
And for those of you that said Kilimnik had Russian 'connections', just about everyone in Ukraine has Russian 'connections'. 
So let me get this straight. Manafort had no Russian connections, but
Quote:
Kilimnik had Russian 'connections', just about everyone in Ukraine has Russian 'connections'.
those Russian connections don't count? So if I had close ties to a Russian spy, I would have no existing Russian connections, as long as that spy was in Ukraine? That is exceptionally weak logic. Nonsensical even 
Quote:
Ice9 said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
koods said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Manafort didn't have connections to Russia, he had connections to Ukraine.
His Ukrainian connections were Russian spies
There is zero evidence of that, just wishful thinking by anti-Trumpers.
And for those of you that said Kilimnik had Russian 'connections', just about everyone in Ukraine has Russian 'connections'. 
So let me get this straight. Manafort had no Russian connections, but
Quote:
Kilimnik had Russian 'connections', just about everyone in Ukraine has Russian 'connections'.
those Russian connections don't count? So if I had close ties to a Russian spy, I would have no existing Russian connections, as long as that spy was in Ukraine? That is exceptionally weak logic. Nonsensical even 
People with Russian ethnicity living in Ukraine only count as long as it helps out falcons argument. If it doesn't help, they are "Russians".
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Ice9
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28405409 - 07/23/23 04:46 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Ice9 said: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/18/us/politics/paul-manafort-konstantin-kilimnik.html
Quote:
Mr. Manafort recognized the Kremlin’s interests, the report said. “This model can greatly benefit the Putin government if employed at the correct levels with the appropriate commitments to success,” he wrote in a memo to Mr. Deripaska.
So Manafort recognized peace with Russia would better be achieved with Ukrainian president Yanukovych. What's wrong with that? And Yanukovych is Ukrainian.
You agree that Manafort had Russian connections?
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Ice9]
#28405414 - 07/23/23 04:50 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Sulfurshelfsean said: You agree that Manafort had Russian connections?
Not any he should be in trouble for.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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gww
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28405424 - 07/23/23 05:10 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
To me, the "cost" to Ukraine is getting cheaper energy, saving hundreds of thousands of lives, letting go of Crimea which don't like Ukraine anyway, and keeping your democratically elected leader.
We don't want to let Texas go even though they threaten to succeed every 4 years or so for the last 20. Ukraine is fighting to regain Crimea. The European union individual earnings are much higher then a Russian citizen and Russia will still have to sell their oil cause it is their economy. Russian aggression is what is taking lives. Russian interference in one election and corruption caused a democratically elected leader to be in charge of Ukraine right now. Lastly, all except the war are what Ukrainians wanted and not what Russia or you (to me) want. Cheers
Edited by gww (07/23/23 05:17 PM)
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Ice9
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 2
#28405426 - 07/23/23 05:13 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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quote fail? since I am the one who asked:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Sulfurshelfsean said: You agree that Manafort had Russian connections?
Not any he should be in trouble for.
The argument was never if he should have been in trouble for his connections, it was your claim he had NO Russian connections.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Manafort didn't have connections to Russia, he had connections to Ukraine.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: gww]
#28405464 - 07/23/23 05:51 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
gww said:
Quote:
To me, the "cost" to Ukraine is getting cheaper energy, saving hundreds of thousands of lives, letting go of Crimea which don't like Ukraine anyway, and keeping your democratically elected leader.
We don't want to let Texas go even though they threaten to succeed every 4 years or so for the last 20. Ukraine is fighting to regain Crimea. Russian aggression is what is taking lives.
Actually, I got that part wrong. If there weren't a coup, and Yanukovych stayed in power, Crimea would very likely still belong to Ukraine.
Quote:
gww said: Russian interference in one election and corruption caused a democratically elected leader to be in charge of Ukraine right now.
 I have no idea what you're referring to. 
Quote:
gww said: Lastly, all except the war are what Ukrainians wanted and not what Russia or you (to me) want. Cheers
They didn't want cheaper energy, good relations with their neighbor, and Crimea???
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Ice9]
#28405467 - 07/23/23 05:53 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Ice9 said: quote fail? since I am the one who asked:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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Sulfurshelfsean said: You agree that Manafort had Russian connections?
Not any he should be in trouble for.
The argument was never if he should have been in trouble for his connections, it was your claim he had NO Russian connections.
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Manafort didn't have connections to Russia, he had connections to Ukraine.
Fair point, let me clarifiy. He was not in trouble for Russian connections; he was in trouble for Ukrainian connections.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Ice9
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#28405480 - 07/23/23 06:02 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Ukrainian connections with Russia, to be precise. Think of it as a transitive property. If I have connections with a Russian spy, who is a martian (for arguments sake), then I have Russian connections. Just like a Ukrainian that has connections with a US spy, who is Russian, has US connections. You resort to semantics here, because to admit that were in fact members of Trump's team that had Russian ties, makes collusion a possibility, even a "smoking gun" was never found.
Since you didn't want to admit this obvious truth, you resorted to taking the position that Manafort had no Russian connections. Now, forced to admit he does, you have moved to "he was in trouble for Ukrainian connections", while conveniently ignoring that the reason those Ukrainian connections were problematic, was their Russian connections.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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gww
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28405511 - 07/23/23 06:40 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
They didn't want cheaper energy, good relations with their neighbor, and Crimea???
You may be proud of your self for this answer but you are just repeating what you already said using different words. Is that supposed to change minds or change what Ukraine wants and make them nice little Russians like you apparently would like them to be? Cheers gww
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sudly
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: gww]
#28405513 - 07/23/23 06:43 PM (6 months, 2 days ago) |
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The majority of them wanted an EU trade deal and were promised it until a dictatorial move by Yanukovych blew the trust of the people.
Beyond this we don't want to go into proven conspiracy theories here.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
#28405870 - 07/24/23 01:23 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Ice9 said: Ukrainian connections with Russia, to be precise. Think of it as a transitive property. If I have connections with a Russian spy, who is a martian (for arguments sake), then I have Russian connections. Just like a Ukrainian that has connections with a US spy, who is Russian, has US connections. You resort to semantics here, because to admit that were in fact members of Trump's team that had Russian ties, makes collusion a possibility, even a "smoking gun" was never found.
Since you didn't want to admit this obvious truth, you resorted to taking the position that Manafort had no Russian connections. Now, forced to admit he does, you have moved to "he was in trouble for Ukrainian connections", while conveniently ignoring that the reason those Ukrainian connections were problematic, was their Russian connections. 
Koods said: "Why was he sharing campaign data with Russian agents?" "Why did he lie about his Russian contacts?"
I incorrectly stated "Manafort didn't have connections to Russia, he had connections to Ukraine" when I should have more precisely said "Manafort didn't share campaign data with Russian agents".
Manafort did talk to a Russian billionaire about promoting his business abroad, but that was completely legal and acceptable.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: gww]
#28405871 - 07/24/23 01:26 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
gww said:
Quote:
They didn't want cheaper energy, good relations with their neighbor, and Crimea???
You may be proud of your self for this answer but you are just repeating what you already said using different words. Is that supposed to change minds or change what Ukraine wants and make them nice little Russians like you apparently would like them to be? Cheers gww
No, I don't want them to be nice little Russians. Why do people keep lying about me? I want them to have cheaper energy and good relations with their neighbor.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
#28405874 - 07/24/23 01:29 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: The majority of them wanted an EU trade deal and were promised it until a dictatorial move by Yanukovych blew the trust of the people.
Beyond this we don't want to go into proven conspiracy theories here.
Do you have polling data showing that the majority of Ukrainians wanted the higher priced trade deal, or did you make that up?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28405887 - 07/24/23 02:08 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
sudly said: The majority of them wanted an EU trade deal and were promised it until a dictatorial move by Yanukovych blew the trust of the people.
Beyond this we don't want to go into proven conspiracy theories here.
Do you have polling data showing that the majority of Ukrainians wanted the higher priced trade deal, or did you make that up?
Your oversimplification of the EU trade deal is not insightful or helpful. The decision involved a range of factors, including economic, political, and geopolitical considerations.
Quote:

Ukraine's economy would benefit the most from an EU association agreement, say the poll's participants. Thirty-two percent hope it would open up new markets for Ukrainian goods. Thirty-one percent believe closer ties with the EU will push for a more modern local economy. Improving Ukraine's democracy and rule of law is ranked fourth on the list (23 percent).

Ukraine's possible membership with the Customs Union of Russia, Kazakhstan and Belarus is linked with economic benefits, as well. Thirty-six percent hope for new markets for Ukrainian goods. What's striking is that a mere 15 percent of participants believe the Customs Union would help modernize the country's economy. Just eight percent expect improvements in terms of democracy and rule of law.
One in three Ukrainians doesn't expect anything to come out of a Customs Union (33 percent) nor an EU association (28 percent). Such a high number could point to a great deal of skepticism for potential partners.
https://www.dw.com/en/ukrainian-support-for-eu-association-agreement-declines/a-17189085
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
#28405946 - 07/24/23 04:23 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Good data, thanks. 
It appears to me most Ukrainians wanted good relations with both the West AND the East. But the West and the East didn't want that to happen.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#28405999 - 07/24/23 06:31 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
It appears to me most Ukrainians wanted good relations with both the West AND the East. But the West and the East didn't want that to happen.
Power dynamics aside, this is basically the crux of the situation in Ukraine. A people who, like all people simply want peace security and self-determination, are stuck in a constant struggle between superpowers simply because of their geographical location.
--------------------
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gww
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: The Ecstatic]
#28406027 - 07/24/23 07:27 AM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Then Russia attacked cause it wanted what it wanted no matter what. No need for a poll now on what the Ukrainians think about the attack as they are too busy defending themselves. Cheers gww
Edited by gww (07/24/23 07:29 AM)
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RJ Tubs 202



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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: gww] 1
#28406811 - 07/24/23 05:42 PM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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In 2019, the RAND Corporation published, "Overextending and Unbalancing Russia."
The paper talks about many issues, such as Russia's vulnerabilities and the "possibility of Western-inspired regime change"
Overextending and Unbalancing Russia
Some of the strategies (cost benefit analysis) included providing lethal aid to Ukraine, increasing support to the Syrian rebels, promoting liberalization in Belarus, expanding ties in the South Caucasus, reducing Russian influence in Central Asia, and flipping Transnistria and expelling Russian troops from the region.
Potential ideological measures included diminishing faith in the Russian electoral system, creating the perception that the regime is not pursuing the public interest, encouraging domestic protests and undermining Russia’s image abroad.
"escalation" is mentioned several times. Unsure of how to take it all, but I found it an interesting read.
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sudly
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#28406851 - 07/24/23 06:11 PM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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It's a list of hypotheticals.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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RJ Tubs 202



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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
#28406881 - 07/24/23 06:28 PM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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"Western-inspired regime change" is one of the funniest terms I've ever heard.
The motivations behind these "hypotheticals" I find interesting.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
#28406889 - 07/24/23 06:37 PM (6 months, 1 day ago) |
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Some seem rather hypothetical. Any you think require quotation of the word hypothetical?
Quote:
Diminishing faith in the Russian electoral system would be difficult because of state control over most media sources. Doing so could increase discontent with the regime, but there are serious risks that the Kremlin could increase repression or lash out and pursue a diversionary conflict abroad that might run counter to Western interests.
Creating the perception that the regime is not pursuing the public interest could focus on widespread, large-scale corruption and further challenge the legitimacy of the state. But it is hard to assess whether political volatility and protests would lead to a more extended Russia—less able or inclined to threaten Western interests abroad—or to a Russia more inclined to lash out in retaliation or to distract, making this a high-risk option.
Encouraging domestic protests and other nonviolent resistance would focus on distracting or destabilizing the Russian regime and reducing the likelihood that it would pursue aggressive actions abroad, but the risks are high and it would be difficult for Western governments to directly increase the incidence or intensity of anti-regime activities in Russia.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: gww]
#28407420 - 07/25/23 04:27 AM (6 months, 17 hours ago) |
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Quote:
gww said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Power dynamics aside, this is basically the crux of the situation in Ukraine. A people who, like all people simply want peace security and self-determination, are stuck in a constant struggle between superpowers simply because of their geographical location.
Then Russia attacked cause it wanted what it wanted no matter what. No need for a poll now on what the Ukrainians think about the attack as they are too busy defending themselves. Cheers gww
Ukraine was preparing to attack Donbas in 2021, which secret documents reveal. Watch 13:24-14:25
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28407510 - 07/25/23 07:32 AM (6 months, 14 hours ago) |
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Ukraine didn’t attack donbas in 2021. So what is your point? Sounds like you got bad intel.
--------------------
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mushboy
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: koods]
#28407520 - 07/25/23 07:39 AM (6 months, 14 hours ago) |
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i like how that video has dramatic images of stuffed animals implying suffering/innocent children or whatever... hosted by scott ritter the convicted pedophile
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christopera
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: mushboy]
#28407526 - 07/25/23 07:47 AM (6 months, 14 hours ago) |
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Ukraine was preparing to attack. Ahhh yes, the old make believe attack. The next time I teach a college class I am going to use Fal as an example for logical fallacies.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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mushboy
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: christopera]
#28407596 - 07/25/23 08:48 AM (6 months, 13 hours ago) |
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i show my friends at work
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Ice9
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: mushboy]
#28407859 - 07/25/23 12:15 PM (6 months, 9 hours ago) |
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I do too.

Even the Russian guy who supports this war gets a big
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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sudly
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28407915 - 07/25/23 01:35 PM (6 months, 8 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
gww said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Power dynamics aside, this is basically the crux of the situation in Ukraine. A people who, like all people simply want peace security and self-determination, are stuck in a constant struggle between superpowers simply because of their geographical location.
Then Russia attacked cause it wanted what it wanted no matter what. No need for a poll now on what the Ukrainians think about the attack as they are too busy defending themselves. Cheers gww
Ukraine was preparing to attack Donbas in 2021, which secret documents reveal. Watch 13:24-14:25
Goddamnit Fal stopping quoting that pedophile, the Ukranians gathered troops early 2022 in response to a gathering of Russian troops in December 2021 along their border from Intel that Russia would invade which turned out to be true.
But at least you are providing some insight into what Russian propaganda looks like.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: mushboy]
#28407979 - 07/25/23 02:32 PM (6 months, 7 hours ago) |
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Quote:
mushboy said: i like how that video has dramatic images of stuffed animals implying suffering/innocent children or whatever... hosted by scott ritter the convicted pedophile
That was a war memorial. If you think stuffed animals are inappropriate for a memorial, you should complain to the parents of the dead children.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: christopera]
#28407983 - 07/25/23 02:36 PM (6 months, 7 hours ago) |
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Quote:
christopera said: Ukraine was preparing to attack. Ahhh yes, the old make believe attack. The next time I teach a college class I am going to use Fal as an example for logical fallacies.
Quote:
mushboy said: i show my friends at work
Quote:
Ice9 said: I do too.

There were secret documents in the documentary and leaked videos that have been posted here showing Ukraine was planning to attack Donbas.
Maybe you can explain the logical fallacy of showing evidence?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (07/25/23 02:42 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
#28408030 - 07/25/23 03:04 PM (6 months, 7 hours ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Goddamnit Fal stopping quoting that pedophile
The "big fat poo poo head argument" again. 
I think what you really meant do say was "Goddamnit Fal stopping providing evidence showing I'm wrong".
Quote:
sudly said: the Ukranians gathered troops early 2022 in response to a gathering of Russian troops in December 2021 along their border from Intel that Russia would invade which turned out to be true.
In 2016 (before Trump was President), Lindsey Graham told Ukrainian troops "I admire the fact that you will fight for your homeland. Your fight is our fight. 2017 will be the year of offense."
What do you think he meant by "offense" if not offense?
It appears Trump stopped the invasion from taking place and we had to wait for Biden.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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gww
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28408050 - 07/25/23 03:16 PM (6 months, 6 hours ago) |
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Russia took Donbas with tanks, seems like trump was a little screwed up if he thought they should keep it. Cheers
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28408159 - 07/25/23 04:25 PM (6 months, 5 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
christopera said: Ukraine was preparing to attack. Ahhh yes, the old make believe attack. The next time I teach a college class I am going to use Fal as an example for logical fallacies.
Quote:
mushboy said: i show my friends at work
Quote:
Ice9 said: I do too.

There were secret documents in the documentary and leaked videos that have been posted here showing Ukraine was planning to attack Donbas.
Maybe you can explain the logical fallacy of showing evidence? 
You haven't provided any citations.
What you purport as evidence of a planned offensive on Ukraine is a pedophile sharing a fake claim made by Russian state media.
It was a document of annual training in Lviv that wasn't a secret at all.
Quote:
However, there is no mention of the planned offensive.'' "Belizovel 1600; As StopFake explained in the NGU, the document is not secret. The 1711in the secret business production, a fuhrhrhryf should be held, and no one is scheduled to see on the back of the classified documentation," a spokesman for the NGU said StopFake.
Second, the document has nothing to do with Donbass at all. "It is a typical order for regular training joint gatherings of the WSU and NGU in the Old Man (Lviv region). Such orders are issued regularly every year. This document on the organization of the training gathering of the the "StopFake" in the NGU confirmed.
The Ukrainian National Guard also pointed to a lack of mention of any purpose of the offensive in the order.
The 171p.This document has nothing to do with planning an offensive operation. It is clear that the offensive operation plan should involve some specific goals that are not in the document. This is not an order to carry out a march to some position in the EPA zone, followed by a subsequent rollout for the offensive. This is an order for combat cohesion in the Lvivviv region! Tasmanian 187;," the National Guard said.
https://www.stopfake.org/ru/fejk-sekretnyj-prikaz-komanduyushhego-natsionalnoj-gvardiej-ukrainy-predusmatrival-nastuplenii-na-donbass-v-marte-2022-goda/
To top it off its clear Russia began gathering a force near the Ukranian border in december 2021, before any Ukranian forces began gathering in January 2022.
Quote:
Russians have 120,000 troops on its border, increased intel gathering, Ukraine ministry says
Dec 9, 2021
https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoints/2021/12/08/russians-have-120000-troops-on-its-border-increased-intel-gathering-ukraine-ministry-says/
Quote:
As Russia amassed troops on the Ukrainian border, Russian President Vladimir Putin, his spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, and other Russian officials repeatedly denied that their country had plans to invade Ukraine. They blamed the U.S., Ukraine and others for the tension, insisting that Russia is a “peaceful country” and that it is “not going to attack anyone.”
That, of course, was proven false when Russia launched a full-scale invasion against Ukraine on Feb. 24
https://www.factcheck.org/2022/02/russian-rhetoric-ahead-of-attack-against-ukraine-deny-deflect-mislead/
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
#28408196 - 07/25/23 04:54 PM (6 months, 5 hours ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
However, there is no mention of the planned offensive.'' "Belizovel 1600
Care to explain what you think Lindsay Graham meant when he said: "I admire the fact that you will fight for your homeland. Your fight is our fight. 2017 will be the year of offense."
What do you think he meant by "offense" if not offense?
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28408222 - 07/25/23 05:12 PM (6 months, 4 hours ago) |
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Please share an actual citation source for whatever claims you make and cut the connect the dots speculation crap.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
#28408229 - 07/25/23 05:17 PM (6 months, 4 hours ago) |
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Sure. Here is the full video, which shows Lindsey Graham saying the quote above:
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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sudly
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28408236 - 07/25/23 05:21 PM (6 months, 4 hours ago) |
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He said he'll push the case against Russia, as in he'll politically do so.
Your connect the dots crap is somehow aligning that with military invasion.
If someone in a workplace says well fight for our rights, it doesn't mean they'll go and kill the boss.
Your speculative nonsense is abhorrent. Please stop.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
#28408240 - 07/25/23 05:25 PM (6 months, 4 hours ago) |
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I see. We are to rely on YOUR interpretation of everything. It all makes sense now.
Any thoughts on why he's speaking to the Ukrainian military to politically push a case against Russia?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28408246 - 07/25/23 05:27 PM (6 months, 4 hours ago) |
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Because the military is a political apparatus.
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sudly
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28408251 - 07/25/23 05:33 PM (6 months, 4 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I see. We are to rely on YOUR interpretation of everything. It all makes sense now.
Any thoughts on why he's speaking to the Ukrainian military to politically push a case against Russia?
Of everything? What a liar your are.
You haven't made a case, you've heard Lindsey Graham say offense and are now trying to insinuate what?
WHAT ARE YOU INSINUATING?!
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
#28408287 - 07/25/23 06:04 PM (6 months, 4 hours ago) |
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He told the Ukrainian military "I admire the fact that you will fight for your homeland. Your fight is our fight. 2017 will be the year of offense."
It sounds to me like he's telling them to get ready to fight for Donbas. How do you interpret it?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 2
#28408291 - 07/25/23 06:06 PM (6 months, 4 hours ago) |
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Maybe he’s talking about Ukraine taking back territory that Russia had recently stolen from the country
But really who the fuck cares what that fruitcake says? Lindsey Graham doesn’t speak for the US and he doesn’t run Ukraine. If you want to hold someone responsible for starting wars, Putin is your guy. But of course, you will never do that. You won’t even criticize Russia for using cluster bombs, the use of which you were against until you were told Russia has been using them in Ukraine. Go ahead heres yet another opportunity to call out Russia for using them. You won’t don’t it and it’s pathetic, just one of the many reasons people have such a low opinion of you.
Edited by koods (07/25/23 06:14 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: koods]
#28408294 - 07/25/23 06:08 PM (6 months, 4 hours ago) |
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Nope. Russia didn't recognize Donbas' independence until 2022.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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sudly
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28408305 - 07/25/23 06:17 PM (6 months, 3 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: He told the Ukrainian military "I admire the fact that you will fight for your homeland. Your fight is our fight. 2017 will be the year of offense."
It sounds to me like he's telling them to get ready to fight for Donbas. How do you interpret it?
Why are you asking that, I already told you, he said he'll push the case against Russia, as in he'll politically do so.
It is far fetched and accusatory interpretation to claim that requires some backing to support.
Hundreds of politicians have said they will fight for things, if you want to claim they're saying it's actually to do violence, you need more than the words to support your claim.
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#28408309 - 07/25/23 06:20 PM (6 months, 3 hours ago) |
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I’m talking about crimea, but it’s hilarious you think Russia recognized donbas independence considering Russia invaded, annexed the territory and made it part of Russia. So donbas was an independent country that Russia invaded and took it over and you’re perfectly fine with that? You are incensed that Lindsey Graham might have suggested Ukraine invade and regain control of donbas but not a peep about Russia invading donbas and taking control of it.
Edited by koods (07/25/23 06:28 PM)
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28408333 - 07/25/23 06:44 PM (6 months, 3 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: He told the Ukrainian military "I admire the fact that you will fight for your homeland. Your fight is our fight. 2017 will be the year of offense."
It sounds to me like he's telling them to get ready to fight for Donbas. How do you interpret it?
If that's what he meant, it's good he gave them a heads up. Russia's unjust invasion of Ukraine was only a few years away.
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Enlil] 1
#28408354 - 07/25/23 07:02 PM (6 months, 3 hours ago) |
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Lindsay Graham is better prognosticator than Chops, for sure.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
#28408440 - 07/25/23 07:44 PM (6 months, 2 hours ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: He told the Ukrainian military "I admire the fact that you will fight for your homeland. Your fight is our fight. 2017 will be the year of offense."
It sounds to me like he's telling them to get ready to fight for Donbas. How do you interpret it?
Why are you asking that, I already told you, he said he'll push the case against Russia, as in he'll politically do so.
He's telling the Ukrainian military to push the political case? 
Quote:
sudly said: Hundreds of politicians have said they will fight for things
So politicians talk to the military when they want to fight for things?!?!?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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sudly
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28408475 - 07/25/23 08:20 PM (6 months, 1 hour ago) |
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Originally Graham addressed a Ukranian brigade who were fighting Russian supported separatists and said,
Quote:
“I admire the fact that you will fight for your homeland,” Graham told Ukraine’s 36th Separate Marine Brigade in the town of Shyrokyne, about four kilometers from the line of contact, according to a video released Monday by the Ukrainian presidency.
“Your fight is our fight,” Graham said during the visit on Saturday alongside President Petro Poroshenko. “2017 will be the year of offense,” he continued. “All of us will go back to Washington and we will push the case against Russia. Enough of a Russian aggression. It is time for them to pay a heavier price. Our fight is not with the Russian people but with Putin. Our promise to you is to take your cause to Washington, inform the American people of your bravery and make the case against Putin to the world.”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.eu/article/us-senators-praise-ukrainian-marines-slam-vladimir-putin-russia-john-mccain-lindsey-graham/amp/
And then 6 months later he voted for Sanctions against Russia. That is an example of pushing a political case.
Quote:
WASHINGTON – U.S. Senator Lindsey Graham (R-South Carolina) today made this statement on the Senate passing an amendment Graham sponsored to increase sanctions on Russia. The vote in the Senate was 97-2.
“I’m very pleased that we could reach a bipartisan agreement to punish Russia for interfering in our election.
“Today’s sanctions vote serves as a punch to the nose to Putin and his cronies in Russia. It reinforces the fact that we will not stand by and allow them to interfere in our affairs without facing repercussions.
“While I do not believe Russian interference changed the outcome of the election, there is no doubt their computer hacking and cyber interference created chaos.
“Finally, combining Iran and Russia sanctions will send the right signal at the right time to both regimes who are wreaking havoc throughout the world.”
The amendment adopted today imposes comprehensive sanctions on Russia for its cyber intrusions, aggression, and destabilizing activities in the United States and around the world. It also incorporates legislation Graham supported that would require congressional oversight of any decision to ease sanctions on Russia.
https://www.lgraham.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2017/6/graham-russia-sanctions-deliver-clear-message-to-putin
Graham saying he will fight for Ukranians and push the case against Russia back in Washington. The Ukranians were already fighting separatists.
Lindseys words didn't change anything, and if you're going to claim so you need to cite actual evidence.
This is supposed to be a place for things that aren't blatant conspiracies and here you are trying to make them.
You've already given up on the proven false claim you made of documents that weren't secret and didn't indicate an invasion.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
#28408495 - 07/25/23 08:50 PM (6 months, 1 hour ago) |
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I'm not sure what you see as the 'conspiracy'. It seems clear to me that Lindsey Graham was rallying up the Ukrainian troops for war; you seem to think he wanted them to fight Russia politically.
Yes, Ukrainians were killing separatists. They weren't happy that Southeastern Ukraine didn't go along with their coup.
And no, I haven't given up on my 'proven false claim' that the documents weren't secret. The document in the video says "Secret" in Ukrainian in the upper right (highlighted in pink).
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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sudly
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28408501 - 07/25/23 09:01 PM (6 months, 1 hour ago) |
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You need to be clear on what you're insinuating Lidnsey Graham did. What change he led to. Do you think he incited violence, changed the course of warfare between Ukraine and separatists, or that his words did anything on the ground that wasn't already happening?
He said your fight is our fight, we'll push the case against Russia in Washington, 6 months later he signed a bill to sanction Russia.
What does Tacmbo mean then? The pink highlighted bit.
Secret in Ukranian is секрет.
You've given up on calling it an invasion plan, because it wasn't, it was a annual training event..
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
#28408510 - 07/25/23 09:07 PM (6 months, 1 hour ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: You need to be clear on what you're insinuating Lidnsey Graham did. What change he led to. Do you think he incited violence, changed the course of warfare between Ukraine and separatists, or that his words did anything on the ground that wasn't already happening?
I think he let the Ukrainian military know they will have US support if they try to retake Donbas.
Quote:
sudly said: What does Tacmbo mean then? The pink highlighted bit.
It means "secret". Google translate says "secretly".
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28408522 - 07/25/23 09:16 PM (6 months, 52 minutes ago) |
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Good thing. I'm glad they knew they'd have our support. Hopefully, they can kill as many Russian invaders as they need to in order to get Russia to stop this brutal and unjust war.
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sudly
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28408593 - 07/25/23 10:15 PM (5 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
sudly said: You need to be clear on what you're insinuating Lidnsey Graham did. What change he led to. Do you think he incited violence, changed the course of warfare between Ukraine and separatists, or that his words did anything on the ground that wasn't already happening?
I think he let the Ukrainian military know they will have US support if they try to retake Donbas.
Quote:
sudly said: What does Tacmbo mean then? The pink highlighted bit.
It means "secret". Google translate says "secretly".
Okay, at least you said that's what you think. Having US support is very broad and doesn't specify anything. They were already trying to retake the territory..
Do you know when the US sent its first military support, weapons etc, to Ukraine?
Quote:
Provision of Defense Equipment After Russia first invaded Ukraine in 2014, the Obama Administration provided Ukraine nonlethal security assistance. In 2017, the Trump Administration announced U.S. readiness to provide lethal weapons to Ukraine.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF12040&ved=2ahUKEwjIy5qswquAAxWml1YBHalRA7sQFnoECA0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw21gzEFyKza3WST_P7cD9pL
I'm not sure that 'secretly' is a classification. It doesn't appear to have been a secret, an invasion plan, or related to Donbas. But an annual training gathering in Lyviv.
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Edited by sudly (07/25/23 10:29 PM)
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Joh.Ke
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Enlil]
#28419146 - 08/03/23 06:05 PM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: There is no hoax. The Russians did interfere with the election. Trump did specifically ask them to. The former was made clear by the Mueller report, which you love to cite as a source. The latter was done on national television.
So why isn't Trump in jail?
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Joh.Ke]
#28419168 - 08/03/23 06:21 PM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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For what, exactly?
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Joh.Ke
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Enlil]
#28419178 - 08/03/23 06:28 PM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: For what, exactly?
For asking Russia to interfere. Sounds like it should be a crime.
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koods
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Joh.Ke]
#28419204 - 08/03/23 06:42 PM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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Should be
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Joh.Ke
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: koods]
#28419214 - 08/03/23 06:49 PM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: Should be
Not sure what you are trying to say.
Is asking Russia to interfere in the election a crime or not? If yes, then Trump should go to jail. And if he didn't go to jail for it, then it means he isn't guilty of the crime.
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koods
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Joh.Ke]
#28419220 - 08/03/23 06:55 PM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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That would be a messy first amendment case
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Enlil
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Joh.Ke]
#28419227 - 08/03/23 07:06 PM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Joh.Ke said:
Quote:
Enlil said: For what, exactly?
For asking Russia to interfere. Sounds like it should be a crime.
You should lobby congress to make it a crime.
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Joh.Ke]
#28419229 - 08/03/23 07:08 PM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Joh.Ke said:
Quote:
koods said: Should be
Not sure what you are trying to say.
Is asking Russia to interfere in the election a crime or not? If yes, then Trump should go to jail. And if he didn't go to jail for it, then it means he isn't guilty of the crime.
Yeah, just like OJ didn't kill Nicole.
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koods
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Joh.Ke]
#28419235 - 08/03/23 07:11 PM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Joh.Ke said:
Quote:
koods said: Should be
Not sure what you are trying to say.
Is asking Russia to interfere in the election a crime or not? If yes, then Trump should go to jail. And if he didn't go to jail for it, then it means he isn't guilty of the crime.
The government chooses not to prosecute all the time. Especially when the defendant is the president and is immune from prosecution.
It’s pretty clear that if trump had lost the election he would have been prosecuted for a number of things.
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Joh.Ke
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Enlil]
#28419248 - 08/03/23 07:23 PM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Joh.Ke said:
Quote:
Enlil said: For what, exactly?
For asking Russia to interfere. Sounds like it should be a crime.
You should lobby congress to make it a crime.
Holy shit! Asking a foreign country to interfere in an election is not a crime in your country?
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Joh.Ke
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Enlil] 1
#28419251 - 08/03/23 07:24 PM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Joh.Ke said:
Quote:
koods said: Should be
Not sure what you are trying to say.
Is asking Russia to interfere in the election a crime or not? If yes, then Trump should go to jail. And if he didn't go to jail for it, then it means he isn't guilty of the crime.
Yeah, just like OJ didn't kill Nicole.
If Trump truly is guilty, and it's proven on such a grand scale, how come he hasn't lost all credibility?
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Joh.Ke
Stranger
Registered: 07/03/23
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: koods]
#28419259 - 08/03/23 07:28 PM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
Joh.Ke said:
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koods said: Should be
Not sure what you are trying to say.
Is asking Russia to interfere in the election a crime or not? If yes, then Trump should go to jail. And if he didn't go to jail for it, then it means he isn't guilty of the crime.
The government chooses not to prosecute all the time. Especially when the defendant is the president and is immune from prosecution.
That doesn't seem right. Anybody who broke the law should face punishment. Doesn't matter if he is a regular Joe or the Potus.
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feevers



Registered: 12/28/10
Posts: 8,546
Loc:
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Joh.Ke] 1
#28419268 - 08/03/23 07:30 PM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Joh.Ke said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Joh.Ke said:
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koods said: Should be
Not sure what you are trying to say.
Is asking Russia to interfere in the election a crime or not? If yes, then Trump should go to jail. And if he didn't go to jail for it, then it means he isn't guilty of the crime.
Yeah, just like OJ didn't kill Nicole.
If Trump truly is guilty, and it's proven on such a grand scale, how come he hasn't lost all credibility?
Because if you take a person of average intelligence, around half the people are dumber than that person
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gww
Stranger

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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Joh.Ke]
#28419277 - 08/03/23 07:35 PM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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Why does putin have oligarchs and do they care about what the populace might vote for? Why do kids believe in the Easter bunny? I would say he lost credibility, he only got one term. Justice is slow but that might be coming as well and we will see how your contention holds up as in america it will be 12 citizens like me that get to decide that. Just like other citizens like me were on a grand jury and decided he needed to be charged. There will always be a few crazies that will love him like some people love serial killers and marry them in jail. But you really know why before you ask, right? Cheers gww
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,470
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Joh.Ke] 1
#28419286 - 08/03/23 07:38 PM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Joh.Ke said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Joh.Ke said:
Quote:
koods said: Should be
Not sure what you are trying to say.
Is asking Russia to interfere in the election a crime or not? If yes, then Trump should go to jail. And if he didn't go to jail for it, then it means he isn't guilty of the crime.
Yeah, just like OJ didn't kill Nicole.
If Trump truly is guilty, and it's proven on such a grand scale, how come he hasn't lost all credibility?
Lol, he lost that years ago. Only retards believe anything Trump says.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,470
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Joh.Ke]
#28419290 - 08/03/23 07:40 PM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Joh.Ke said:
Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
Joh.Ke said:
Quote:
koods said: Should be
Not sure what you are trying to say.
Is asking Russia to interfere in the election a crime or not? If yes, then Trump should go to jail. And if he didn't go to jail for it, then it means he isn't guilty of the crime.
The government chooses not to prosecute all the time. Especially when the defendant is the president and is immune from prosecution.
That doesn't seem right. Anybody who broke the law should face punishment. Doesn't matter if he is a regular Joe or the Potus.
That's reality, though. Sorry you don't like it
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Joh.Ke
Stranger
Registered: 07/03/23
Posts: 346
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Enlil] 1
#28419311 - 08/03/23 07:45 PM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Joh.Ke said:
Quote:
koods said:
The government chooses not to prosecute all the time. Especially when the defendant is the president and is immune from prosecution.
That doesn't seem right. Anybody who broke the law should face punishment. Doesn't matter if he is a regular Joe or the Potus.
That's reality, though. Sorry you don't like it
I didn't say I didn't like it. Why do you talk to me this way though? I have only been in this forum very recently and you seem to dislike me already. Why?
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Sulfurshelfsean
Defender of Cubes


Registered: 07/29/10
Posts: 3,940
Last seen: 14 hours, 12 minutes
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: gww]
#28419386 - 08/03/23 08:13 PM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
gww said: Why does putin have oligarchs and do they care about what the populace might vote for? Why do kids believe in the Easter bunny? I would say he lost credibility, he only got one term. Justice is slow but that might be coming as well and we will see how your contention holds up as in america it will be 12 citizens like me that get to decide that. Just like other citizens like me were on a grand jury and decided he needed to be charged. There will always be a few crazies that will love him like some people love serial killers and marry them in jail. But you really know why before you ask, right? Cheers gww
He absolutely lost all credibility. The right just turns a blind eye and plays stupid now.
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Joh.Ke]
#28419397 - 08/03/23 08:17 PM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Joh.Ke said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Joh.Ke said:
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Enlil said: For what, exactly?
For asking Russia to interfere. Sounds like it should be a crime.
You should lobby congress to make it a crime.
Holy shit! Asking a foreign country to interfere in an election is not a crime in your country?
It might be, but his defense will be that he was engaged in political rhetoric and it was not an actual request.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Sulfurshelfsean
Defender of Cubes


Registered: 07/29/10
Posts: 3,940
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: koods] 1
#28419411 - 08/03/23 08:23 PM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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The name of the game is throw as much plausible deniability on it as you can.
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   Everything is better when it is done ON TOP OF A MOUNTAIN!
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,470
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Joh.Ke]
#28419414 - 08/03/23 08:24 PM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Joh.Ke said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Joh.Ke said:
Quote:
koods said:
The government chooses not to prosecute all the time. Especially when the defendant is the president and is immune from prosecution.
That doesn't seem right. Anybody who broke the law should face punishment. Doesn't matter if he is a regular Joe or the Potus.
That's reality, though. Sorry you don't like it
I didn't say I didn't like it. Why do you talk to me this way though? I have only been in this forum very recently and you seem to dislike me already. Why?
I don't know you enough to like or dislike you.
And you implied that you didn't like it when you said it "doesn't seem right" and that it "should" be some other way.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Joh.Ke
Stranger
Registered: 07/03/23
Posts: 346
Last seen: 5 hours, 54 minutes
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Enlil]
#28419418 - 08/03/23 08:25 PM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Joh.Ke said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Joh.Ke said:
That doesn't seem right. Anybody who broke the law should face punishment. Doesn't matter if he is a regular Joe or the Potus.
That's reality, though. Sorry you don't like it
I didn't say I didn't like it. Why do you talk to me this way though? I have only been in this forum very recently and you seem to dislike me already. Why?
I don't know you enough to like or dislike you.
Ah, I see. That's cool.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,789
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Joh.Ke]
#28419749 - 08/03/23 10:23 PM (5 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Joh.Ke said:
Quote:
Enlil said: For what, exactly?
For asking Russia to interfere. Sounds like it should be a crime.
He just said they should do it, but no evidence camps up that he or his campaign collided with Russia when they did it.
Some of trumps associated were caught foe obstructing justice and Trump pardoned them after purjering themselves, but make of that what you will. The case didn't conclude trump was guilty. But back then financials would've been a more fruitful case.
That said, the newest indictments on classified papers and election stuff will be interesting.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
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Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
#28419777 - 08/03/23 10:39 PM (5 months, 21 days ago) |
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Falcon always claims there was no evidence of coordination between Russia and the Trump campaign, and it is certainly true that they didn’t have evidence to prove coordination. Based on this, he thinks the investigation was illegitimate, but he will never admit that there was plenty of probable cause to investigate the possibility of coordination.
The mueller report also explicitly states that its investigation was hindered by witnesses who lied and a lack of cooperation. In particular, it was the investigation of manafort that hit a dead end.
And there really is nothing more corrupt in my opinion than Trump pardoning everyone who was prosecuted for lying to mueller investigators, while letting those who cooperated rot in jail.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
Edited by koods (08/03/23 10:48 PM)
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Seriously_trippin
Cosmic Guru Ganesh



Registered: 07/12/13
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: koods]
#28419980 - 08/04/23 03:04 AM (5 months, 21 days ago) |
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Did Trump withhold defense budget funding from Ukraine in an attempt to strong arm zelenski into making a public statement saying they were investigating his political opponent ? Yes. It's on tape, Trump admitted it was him but just called it a perfect. There's records of us withholding the funds until the day the story broke and magically we released the funding. Was it a crime? Yes.
" On the day House managers transmitted two articles of impeachment to the Senate, the Government Accountability Office, a nonpartisan public auditor, reported that President Trump violated the Impoundment Control Act by unilaterally withholding $214 million of legislatively appropriated Defense Department aid for Ukraine without obtaining authorization from Congress. “Faithful execution of the law does not permit the president to substitute his own policy priorities for those that Congress has enacted into law,” the Government Accountability Office concluded."
A violation of the Impoundment Control Act is not a minor technicality. At the height of the Watergate scandal in 1974, Congress passed the law to prevent a rogue president like Richard Nixon from withholding lawfully appropriated funds. A president who seeks to put a hold on such funds for policy purposes must transmit to both the House and Senate “a special message” specifying “the amount of budget authority which he proposes to be rescinded or which is to be so reserved” and “the reasons why the budget authority should be rescinded or is to be so reserved.”
But let's have a little history lesson, Nixon was caught essentially spying on his political opponent. Nixon was impeached just once and resigned instead of further damaging the presidential office by lying and downplaying it and saying he did nothing wrong.
What happens when you have a president that realizes the worst that can happen is that he gets impeached and doesn't have to resign because there's presidential immunities? As long as he was president all he had to do was make his supporters believe he was innocent which is the one thing he's brilliant at.
-------------------- R.I.P Zombi3, Blue Helix Modest Mouse Zappa Slothie That Kid With The face ShLong Le Canard split_by_nine & Big Worm Forever Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many
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