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Offlinegww
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28405511 - 07/23/23 06:40 PM (6 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

They didn't want cheaper energy, good relations with their neighbor, and Crimea???



You may be proud of your self for this answer but you are just repeating what you already said using different words.  Is that supposed to change minds or change what Ukraine wants and make them nice little Russians like you apparently would like them to be?
Cheers
gww


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: gww]
    #28405513 - 07/23/23 06:43 PM (6 months, 2 days ago)

The majority of them wanted an EU trade deal and were promised it until a dictatorial move by Yanukovych blew the trust of the people.

Beyond this we don't want to go into proven conspiracy theories here.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
    #28405870 - 07/24/23 01:23 AM (6 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Ice9 said:
Ukrainian connections with Russia, to be precise.  Think of it as a transitive property.  If I have connections with a Russian spy, who is a martian (for arguments sake), then I have Russian connections.  Just like a Ukrainian that has connections with a US spy, who is Russian, has US connections.  You resort to semantics here, because to admit that were in fact members of Trump's team that had Russian ties, makes collusion a possibility, even a "smoking gun" was never found.

Since you didn't want to admit this obvious truth, you resorted to taking the position that Manafort had no Russian connections.  Now, forced to admit he does, you have moved to "he was in trouble for Ukrainian connections", while conveniently ignoring that the reason those Ukrainian connections were problematic, was their Russian connections.  :shrug:



Koods said:  "Why was he sharing campaign data with Russian agents?"  "Why did he lie about his Russian contacts?"

I incorrectly stated "Manafort didn't have connections to Russia, he had connections to Ukraine" when I should have more precisely said "Manafort didn't share campaign data with Russian agents".

Manafort did talk to a Russian billionaire about promoting his business abroad, but that was completely legal and acceptable.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: gww]
    #28405871 - 07/24/23 01:26 AM (6 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

gww said:
Quote:

They didn't want cheaper energy, good relations with their neighbor, and Crimea???



You may be proud of your self for this answer but you are just repeating what you already said using different words.  Is that supposed to change minds or change what Ukraine wants and make them nice little Russians like you apparently would like them to be?
Cheers
gww



No, I don't want them to be nice little Russians.  Why do people keep lying about me?  I want them to have cheaper energy and good relations with their neighbor.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
    #28405874 - 07/24/23 01:29 AM (6 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
The majority of them wanted an EU trade deal and were promised it until a dictatorial move by Yanukovych blew the trust of the people.

Beyond this we don't want to go into proven conspiracy theories here.



Do you have polling data showing that the majority of Ukrainians wanted the higher priced trade deal, or did you make that up?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisiblesudly
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Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28405887 - 07/24/23 02:08 AM (6 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

sudly said:
The majority of them wanted an EU trade deal and were promised it until a dictatorial move by Yanukovych blew the trust of the people.

Beyond this we don't want to go into proven conspiracy theories here.



Do you have polling data showing that the majority of Ukrainians wanted the higher priced trade deal, or did you make that up?




Your oversimplification of the EU trade deal is not insightful or helpful. The decision involved a range of factors, including economic, political, and geopolitical considerations.

Quote:



Ukraine's economy would benefit the most from an EU association agreement, say the poll's participants. Thirty-two percent hope it would open up new markets for Ukrainian goods. Thirty-one percent believe closer ties with the EU will push for a more modern local economy. Improving Ukraine's democracy and rule of law is ranked fourth on the list (23 percent).



Ukraine's possible membership with the Customs Union of Russia, Kazakhstan and Belarus is linked with economic benefits, as well. Thirty-six percent hope for new markets for Ukrainian goods. What's striking is that a mere 15 percent of participants believe the Customs Union would help modernize the country's economy. Just eight percent expect improvements in terms of democracy and rule of law.

One in three Ukrainians doesn't expect anything to come out of a Customs Union (33 percent) nor an EU association (28 percent). Such a high number could point to a great deal of skepticism for potential partners.

https://www.dw.com/en/ukrainian-support-for-eu-association-agreement-declines/a-17189085




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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
    #28405946 - 07/24/23 04:23 AM (6 months, 1 day ago)

Good data, thanks.  :thumbup:

It appears to me most Ukrainians wanted good relations with both the West AND the East.  But the West and the East didn't want that to happen.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #28405999 - 07/24/23 06:31 AM (6 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

It appears to me most Ukrainians wanted good relations with both the West AND the East.  But the West and the East didn't want that to happen.




Power dynamics aside, this is basically the crux of the situation in Ukraine. A people who, like all people simply want peace security and self-determination, are stuck in a constant struggle between superpowers simply because of their geographical location.


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Offlinegww
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #28406027 - 07/24/23 07:27 AM (6 months, 1 day ago)

Then Russia attacked cause it wanted what it wanted no matter what.  No need for a poll now on what the Ukrainians think about the attack as they are too busy defending themselves.
Cheers
gww


Edited by gww (07/24/23 07:29 AM)


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: gww] * 1
    #28406811 - 07/24/23 05:42 PM (6 months, 1 day ago)

In 2019, the RAND Corporation published, "Overextending and Unbalancing Russia."

The paper talks about many issues, such as Russia's vulnerabilities and the "possibility of Western-inspired regime change"

Overextending and Unbalancing Russia

Some of the strategies (cost benefit analysis) included providing lethal aid to Ukraine, increasing support to the Syrian rebels, promoting liberalization in Belarus, expanding ties in the South Caucasus, reducing Russian influence in Central Asia, and flipping Transnistria and expelling Russian troops from the region.

Potential ideological measures included diminishing faith in the Russian electoral system, creating the perception that the regime is not pursuing the public interest, encouraging domestic protests and undermining Russia’s image abroad.

"escalation" is mentioned several times. Unsure of how to take it all, but I found it an interesting read.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28406851 - 07/24/23 06:11 PM (6 months, 1 day ago)

It's a list of hypotheticals.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
    #28406881 - 07/24/23 06:28 PM (6 months, 1 day ago)

"Western-inspired regime change" is one of the funniest terms I've ever heard.

The motivations behind these "hypotheticals" I find interesting.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: sudly]
    #28406889 - 07/24/23 06:37 PM (6 months, 1 day ago)

Some seem rather hypothetical. Any you think require quotation of the word hypothetical?

Quote:

Diminishing faith in the Russian electoral
system would be difficult because of state control
over most media sources. Doing so could increase
discontent with the regime, but there are serious
risks that the Kremlin could increase repression or
lash out and pursue a diversionary conflict abroad
that might run counter to Western interests.

Creating the perception that the regime is
not pursuing the public interest could focus
on widespread, large-scale corruption and further
challenge the legitimacy of the state. But it is hard
to assess whether political volatility and protests
would lead to a more extended Russia—less able or
inclined to threaten Western interests abroad—or to
a Russia more inclined to lash out in retaliation or to
distract, making this a high-risk option.

Encouraging domestic protests and other
nonviolent resistance would focus on distracting
or destabilizing the Russian regime and reducing the
likelihood that it would pursue aggressive actions
abroad, but the risks are high and it would be
difficult for Western governments to directly increase
the incidence or intensity of anti-regime activities in
Russia.




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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: gww]
    #28407420 - 07/25/23 04:27 AM (6 months, 17 hours ago)

Quote:

gww said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Power dynamics aside, this is basically the crux of the situation in Ukraine. A people who, like all people simply want peace security and self-determination, are stuck in a constant struggle between superpowers simply because of their geographical location.



Then Russia attacked cause it wanted what it wanted no matter what.  No need for a poll now on what the Ukrainians think about the attack as they are too busy defending themselves.
Cheers
gww



Ukraine was preparing to attack Donbas in 2021, which secret documents reveal.  Watch 13:24-14:25



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28407510 - 07/25/23 07:32 AM (6 months, 14 hours ago)

Ukraine didn’t attack donbas in 2021. So what is your point? Sounds like you got bad intel.


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InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: koods]
    #28407520 - 07/25/23 07:39 AM (6 months, 14 hours ago)

i like how that video has dramatic images of stuffed animals implying suffering/innocent children or whatever... hosted by scott ritter the convicted pedophile:lolsy:


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Offlinechristopera
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: mushboy]
    #28407526 - 07/25/23 07:47 AM (6 months, 14 hours ago)

Ukraine was preparing to attack. Ahhh yes, the old make believe attack. The next time I teach a college class I am going to use Fal as an example for logical fallacies.


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InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: christopera]
    #28407596 - 07/25/23 08:48 AM (6 months, 13 hours ago)

i show my friends at work:lol:


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OfflineIce9
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: mushboy]
    #28407859 - 07/25/23 12:15 PM (6 months, 9 hours ago)

I do too.
:batlol:

Even the Russian guy who supports this war gets a big :rofl2:


--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28407915 - 07/25/23 01:35 PM (6 months, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

gww said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Power dynamics aside, this is basically the crux of the situation in Ukraine. A people who, like all people simply want peace security and self-determination, are stuck in a constant struggle between superpowers simply because of their geographical location.



Then Russia attacked cause it wanted what it wanted no matter what.  No need for a poll now on what the Ukrainians think about the attack as they are too busy defending themselves.
Cheers
gww



Ukraine was preparing to attack Donbas in 2021, which secret documents reveal.  Watch 13:24-14:25






Goddamnit Fal stopping quoting that pedophile, the Ukranians gathered troops early 2022 in response to a gathering of Russian troops in December 2021 along their border from Intel that Russia would invade which turned out to be true.

But at least you are providing some insight into what Russian propaganda looks like.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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