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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28404915 - 07/23/23 07:17 AM (6 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Koods claimed Manafort "was asked about his connections to Russia and he said he had none. One of the reasons he was fired as campaign manager is because that statement was revealed to be a lie."

Manafort didn't have connections to Russia, he had connections to Ukraine.




Koods claimed Manafort was asked about his connections to Russia and Manafort said he had none, because Manafort was asked about his interactions with Kilimnik and Manafort lied consistently about the issue.

Kilimnik, who had connections to Russia.

Quote:

The Senate intel report notes that in about a dozen interviews with Special Counsel Robert Mueller, Manafort “lied consistently” about “one issue in particular: his interactions with Kilimnik.”

The Senate Intelligence Committee report on Trump and Russia said Konstantin Kilimnik was both “a Russian intelligence officer” and “an integral part of Manafort’s operations in Ukraine and Russia.




Please specify what you are referring to when you say Manafort has connections to Ukraine, I've already provided details of this. Are you implying anything with the statement, do you have specific names or organisations you think Manafort has connections to within Ukraine? Because Manafort certainly had connections to pro Russian political parties within Ukraine as I've laid out and provided evidence for earlier.


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OfflineIce9
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: budmanman]
    #28404964 - 07/23/23 07:55 AM (6 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

budmanman said:
As any good president who loves his job would want.





The BEST president, George Washington, disagrees with you emphatically

Quote:

As president, in a time when there were no term limits and many would have supported a lifetime role, Washington stepped down after the end of his second term—setting an important precedent that lasted until the middle of the 20th century.




Any person that would want to be president for life is categorically disqualified to be president.


--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28405147 - 07/23/23 10:29 AM (6 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Koods claimed Manafort "was asked about his connections to Russia and he said he had none. One of the reasons he was fired as campaign manager is because that statement was revealed to be a lie."

Manafort didn't have connections to Russia, he had connections to Ukraine.





https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1115092
A GOP dominated Senate committee concluded in August 2020 that Manafort's ties to people involved in Russian Intelligence while he was Trump's campaign manager represented a grave counterintelligence threat by creating opportunities for Russian Intelligence Services to exert influence over, and acquire confidential information on, the Trump campaign.


--------------------
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Brian Jones]
    #28405333 - 07/23/23 03:19 PM (6 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Manafort didn't have connections to Russia, he had connections to Ukraine.



His Ukrainian connections were Russian spies



There is zero evidence of that, just wishful thinking by anti-Trumpers.

And for those of you that said Kilimnik had Russian 'connections', just about everyone in Ukraine has Russian 'connections'.  :whatever:


--------------------
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OfflineIce9
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #28405343 - 07/23/23 03:33 PM (6 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Manafort didn't have connections to Russia, he had connections to Ukraine.



His Ukrainian connections were Russian spies



There is zero evidence of that, just wishful thinking by anti-Trumpers.

And for those of you that said Kilimnik had Russian 'connections', just about everyone in Ukraine has Russian 'connections'.  :whatever:



So let me get this straight.  Manafort had no Russian connections, but
Quote:

Kilimnik had Russian 'connections', just about everyone in Ukraine has Russian 'connections'.


those Russian connections don't count?  So if I had close ties to a Russian spy, I would have no existing Russian connections, as long as that spy was in Ukraine? That is exceptionally weak logic.  Nonsensical even :flowstone:


--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Ice9]
    #28405355 - 07/23/23 03:52 PM (6 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Ice9 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Manafort didn't have connections to Russia, he had connections to Ukraine.



His Ukrainian connections were Russian spies



There is zero evidence of that, just wishful thinking by anti-Trumpers.

And for those of you that said Kilimnik had Russian 'connections', just about everyone in Ukraine has Russian 'connections'.  :whatever:



So let me get this straight.  Manafort had no Russian connections, but
Quote:

Kilimnik had Russian 'connections', just about everyone in Ukraine has Russian 'connections'.


those Russian connections don't count?



Don't count as what?  Manafort had Ukrainian connections, who had Russian connections.  And none of Manafort's connections were shown to be Russian spies.

Quote:

Ice9 said:
So if I had close ties to a Russian spy, I would have no existing Russian connections, as long as that spy was in Ukraine? That is exceptionally weak logic.  Nonsensical even :flowstone:



Yes, that is exceptionally weak logic.  Nonsensical even.


--------------------
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OfflineIce9
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28405358 - 07/23/23 03:58 PM (6 months, 2 days ago)

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/russian-oligarch-oleg-vladimirovich-deripaska-and-associates-indicted-sanctions-evasion-and

Quote:

According to court documents, Oleg Vladimirovich Deripaska, aka Oleg Mukhamedshin, 52; and Natalia Mikhaylovna Bardakova, aka Natalya Mikhaylovna Bardakova, 45, both citizens of the Russian Federation (Russia),




https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/18/us/politics/paul-manafort-konstantin-kilimnik.html

Quote:

Mr. Manafort recognized the Kremlin’s interests, the report said. “This model can greatly benefit the Putin government if employed at the correct levels with the appropriate commitments to success,” he wrote in a memo to Mr. Deripaska.




--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Ice9]
    #28405367 - 07/23/23 04:09 PM (6 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Ice9 said:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/18/us/politics/paul-manafort-konstantin-kilimnik.html

Quote:

Mr. Manafort recognized the Kremlin’s interests, the report said. “This model can greatly benefit the Putin government if employed at the correct levels with the appropriate commitments to success,” he wrote in a memo to Mr. Deripaska.






So Manafort recognized peace with Russia would better be achieved with Ukrainian president Yanukovych.  What's wrong with that?  And Yanukovych is Ukrainian.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinegww
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #28405379 - 07/23/23 04:17 PM (6 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

So Manafort recognized peace with Russia would better be achieved with Ukrainian president Yanukovych.  What's wrong with that?  And Yanukovych is Ukrainian.



I think I am getting it now.  By your logic, it would be ok to be a spy for russia in an attempt to subjugate Ukrainian interest for the big picture of peace. Lets forget that would basically mean slavery for Ukraine but at least peace.  I am not putting words in you mouth, that is what your words are saying to me.  Maybe that is also why you want russia to win against American interest.  If we can just please russia enough, there will be peace.
Cheers


Edited by gww (07/23/23 04:18 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: gww]
    #28405388 - 07/23/23 04:26 PM (6 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

gww said:
Quote:

So Manafort recognized peace with Russia would better be achieved with Ukrainian president Yanukovych.  What's wrong with that?  And Yanukovych is Ukrainian.



I think I am getting it now.  By your logic, it would be ok to be a spy for russia in an attempt to subjugate Ukrainian interest for the big picture of peace. Lets forget that would basically mean slavery for Ukraine but at least peace.  I am not putting words in you mouth, that is what your words are saying to me.  Maybe that is also why you want russia to win against American interest.  If we can just please russia enough, there will be peace.
Cheers



Manafort was not proven to be working with Russian spies.

What do you mean by "an attempt to subjugate Ukrainian interest" and "American interest" above?  What are the 'interests' that you speak of.  That should make this conversation much more interesting (you don't seem to think peace would have been in the interest of Ukraine).


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinegww
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #28405393 - 07/23/23 04:28 PM (6 months, 2 days ago)

Peace at what cost? 

We have been over the rest of this above, why reinvent the wheel unless you are contesting something that can probably be pulled by some position you already took above for everyone to see.
Cheers


Edited by gww (07/23/23 04:32 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: gww]
    #28405406 - 07/23/23 04:43 PM (6 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

gww said:
Peace at what cost? 



That's EXACTLY what I'm asking you.

To me, the "cost" to Ukraine is getting cheaper energy, saving hundreds of thousands of lives, letting go of Crimea which don't like Ukraine anyway, and keeping your democratically elected leader.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (07/23/23 04:55 PM)


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OfflineSulfurshelfsean
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Ice9]
    #28405407 - 07/23/23 04:45 PM (6 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Ice9 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Manafort didn't have connections to Russia, he had connections to Ukraine.



His Ukrainian connections were Russian spies



There is zero evidence of that, just wishful thinking by anti-Trumpers.

And for those of you that said Kilimnik had Russian 'connections', just about everyone in Ukraine has Russian 'connections'.  :whatever:



So let me get this straight.  Manafort had no Russian connections, but
Quote:

Kilimnik had Russian 'connections', just about everyone in Ukraine has Russian 'connections'.


those Russian connections don't count?  So if I had close ties to a Russian spy, I would have no existing Russian connections, as long as that spy was in Ukraine? That is exceptionally weak logic.  Nonsensical even :flowstone:



Quote:

Ice9 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Manafort didn't have connections to Russia, he had connections to Ukraine.



His Ukrainian connections were Russian spies



There is zero evidence of that, just wishful thinking by anti-Trumpers.

And for those of you that said Kilimnik had Russian 'connections', just about everyone in Ukraine has Russian 'connections'.  :whatever:



So let me get this straight.  Manafort had no Russian connections, but
Quote:

Kilimnik had Russian 'connections', just about everyone in Ukraine has Russian 'connections'.


those Russian connections don't count?  So if I had close ties to a Russian spy, I would have no existing Russian connections, as long as that spy was in Ukraine? That is exceptionally weak logic.  Nonsensical even :flowstone:



People with Russian ethnicity living in Ukraine  only count as long as it helps out falcons argument. If it doesn't help, they are "Russians".


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OfflineIce9
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28405409 - 07/23/23 04:46 PM (6 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Ice9 said:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/18/us/politics/paul-manafort-konstantin-kilimnik.html

Quote:

Mr. Manafort recognized the Kremlin’s interests, the report said. “This model can greatly benefit the Putin government if employed at the correct levels with the appropriate commitments to success,” he wrote in a memo to Mr. Deripaska.






So Manafort recognized peace with Russia would better be achieved with Ukrainian president Yanukovych.  What's wrong with that?  And Yanukovych is Ukrainian.



You agree that Manafort had Russian connections?


--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Ice9]
    #28405414 - 07/23/23 04:50 PM (6 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Sulfurshelfsean said:
You agree that Manafort had Russian connections?



Not any he should be in trouble for.


--------------------
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28405424 - 07/23/23 05:10 PM (6 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

To me, the "cost" to Ukraine is getting cheaper energy, saving hundreds of thousands of lives, letting go of Crimea which don't like Ukraine anyway, and keeping your democratically elected leader.



We don't want to let Texas go even though they threaten to succeed every 4 years or so for the last 20.  Ukraine is fighting to regain Crimea.  The European union individual earnings are much higher then a Russian citizen and Russia will still have to sell their oil cause it is their economy.  Russian aggression is what is taking lives.  Russian interference in one election and corruption caused a democratically elected leader to be in charge of Ukraine right now.  Lastly, all except the war are what Ukrainians wanted and not what Russia or you (to me) want.
Cheers


Edited by gww (07/23/23 05:17 PM)


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OfflineIce9
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #28405426 - 07/23/23 05:13 PM (6 months, 2 days ago)

quote fail? since I am the one who asked:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Sulfurshelfsean said:
You agree that Manafort had Russian connections?



Not any he should be in trouble for.



The argument was never if he should have been in trouble for his connections, it was your claim he had NO Russian connections.
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Manafort didn't have connections to Russia, he had connections to Ukraine.




--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: gww]
    #28405464 - 07/23/23 05:51 PM (6 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

gww said:
Quote:

To me, the "cost" to Ukraine is getting cheaper energy, saving hundreds of thousands of lives, letting go of Crimea which don't like Ukraine anyway, and keeping your democratically elected leader.



We don't want to let Texas go even though they threaten to succeed every 4 years or so for the last 20.  Ukraine is fighting to regain Crimea.  Russian aggression is what is taking lives.



Actually, I got that part wrong.  If there weren't a coup, and Yanukovych stayed in power, Crimea would very likely still belong to Ukraine.

Quote:

gww said:
Russian interference in one election and corruption caused a democratically elected leader to be in charge of Ukraine right now.



:lolwut:
I have no idea what you're referring to.  :shrug:

Quote:

gww said:
Lastly, all except the war are what Ukrainians wanted and not what Russia or you (to me) want.
Cheers



They didn't want cheaper energy, good relations with their neighbor, and Crimea???


--------------------
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Ice9]
    #28405467 - 07/23/23 05:53 PM (6 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Ice9 said:
quote fail? since I am the one who asked:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Sulfurshelfsean said:
You agree that Manafort had Russian connections?



Not any he should be in trouble for.



The argument was never if he should have been in trouble for his connections, it was your claim he had NO Russian connections.
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Manafort didn't have connections to Russia, he had connections to Ukraine.






Fair point, let me clarifiy.  He was not in trouble for Russian connections; he was in trouble for Ukrainian connections.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineIce9
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Re: Definitely not Russian propaganda or conspiracy theories [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #28405480 - 07/23/23 06:02 PM (6 months, 2 days ago)

Ukrainian connections with Russia, to be precise.  Think of it as a transitive property.  If I have connections with a Russian spy, who is a martian (for arguments sake), then I have Russian connections.  Just like a Ukrainian that has connections with a US spy, who is Russian, has US connections.  You resort to semantics here, because to admit that were in fact members of Trump's team that had Russian ties, makes collusion a possibility, even a "smoking gun" was never found.

Since you didn't want to admit this obvious truth, you resorted to taking the position that Manafort had no Russian connections.  Now, forced to admit he does, you have moved to "he was in trouble for Ukrainian connections", while conveniently ignoring that the reason those Ukrainian connections were problematic, was their Russian connections.  :shrug:


--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw


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