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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Sobriety, painful sobriety * 3
    #28369557 - 06/22/23 12:49 AM (7 months, 3 days ago)

I am finally going to make good on my goal for a while, to get off my dependence on substances. I haven't drank for a few days - I'd been reducing my use quite a bit before this, usually down to one beer a day or less; and, I am going to quit weed too, starting today - something I've posted about many times, but stressors kept bringing me back. Now with a bit of time and nothing major coming up for me, I can get off it and deal with any negatives that come, and be healthier after a time.

I was getting rebound nausea and slowly encroaching anxiety and depression whenever I stopped weed for some time. But this to me was a clear sign I was dependent on it. Dependent not neccesarily as physical dependence, but psychological dependence. And physically I got severe nausea sometimes upon stopping weed, and found it quite hard to eat.

I feel I need to get to a point where I no longer feel compelled to use substances. I have for a while been working on cutting back and actually have been doing OK in that regard - especially with beer, which I cut back to usually once a day or less, and now feel comfortable stopping. Weed I've been using a lot of. But I can't be using something that I feel I *need* to be normal. And, that I was using it compulsively a lot of the time, and without good sense, and sometimes without enjoyment. There isn't much joy to it anymore and it works exactly as a habit, without much thought or fulfillment.

My reflection is that I started to use drugs heavily in response to a trauma, being attacked, and it's time to address the reasons why it is continuing to cause problems for me, and I need to feel all my pain much more deeply, and to let all bad things come up, if I'm going to be better as a whole.

And, that all things considered I came out better than I could've with drugs, and that I don't blame drugs, I don't blame weed or alcohol, but rather that I see how my actions and personality were contributors mainly.

Sobriety will hurt, and already is. I am feeling all the pain I have been avoiding and didn't want to feel; physical and emotional pain keeps coming up, like a bad meal. Perhaps for the first time I'm strong enough to face it down, at least somewhat.

The only situation in which I'll give in an redose is, if I am feeling nausea so bad I'll vomit, or if I really can't sleep for a while. But even then, I would be quite skeptical, and I would see the temporarily sleeplessness and nausea as neccesary rebounds the body is doing. And, especially a week or two later, there will be depression and anxiety, lethargy, a feeling of dread. But this is precisely what I'll need to face if I want to actually stay off drugs.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Sobriety, painful sobriety [Re: CreonAntigone] * 1
    #28370759 - 06/22/23 11:01 PM (7 months, 2 days ago)

I tend to abuse coffee as the alternative.


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Invisiblejack_straw2208
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Re: Sobriety, painful sobriety [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #28370832 - 06/23/23 01:20 AM (7 months, 2 days ago)

I recommend overdoing tea instead of coffee, you get more variety, less heartburn, no fiber tho, coffee has fiber.

Edit: but don't drink tea on an empty stomach, Itll make you barf. Thats how you can tell it's a real drug is it makes you barf if you do it too quick!


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OfflinePatchouli_Savage
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Re: Sobriety, painful sobriety [Re: jack_straw2208] * 3
    #28370846 - 06/23/23 01:48 AM (7 months, 2 days ago)

Congratulations on your decision to pursue sobriety.

Your post seems more like a declaration than a request for advice so I don't want to post a response just offering unsolicited advise, but am wondering if there is an underlying physical/ medical reason for the nausea that was being masked by cannabis, or if it is potentially alcohol withdrawl, or if it is somatic? 

Might be worth looking into if you have access to Healthcare.

I just celebrated 3 years sober from alcohol this week, have 2.5 years without cigarettes, and the end of June will mark 8 months free of cannabis use.

My inbox is open if you are looking for support or if you have any questions about things that have helped me, I'm happy to share.


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"You are a ghost driving a meat coated skeleton made from stardust. What do you have to be scared of?"


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: Sobriety, painful sobriety [Re: jack_straw2208] * 1
    #28371167 - 06/23/23 09:53 AM (7 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
I tend to abuse coffee as the alternative.




Quote:

jack_straw2208 said:
I recommend overdoing tea instead of coffee, you get more variety, less heartburn, no fiber tho, coffee has fiber.

Edit: but don't drink tea on an empty stomach, Itll make you barf. Thats how you can tell it's a real drug is it makes you barf if you do it too quick!




Yeah coffee makes me kind of wired and a bit anxious. Obviously it's not like a 'bad drug' for me, but if I don't have a tolerance to it I feel a little bit worse taking coffee.

Tea is good, as it has some compounds to counteract the caffeine and a lot less of it... it can still be much sometimes. I usually prefer herbal tea, tulsi or chamomile or mint.

A friend of mine is into kava so I might give that a go, it's a bit more my style than caffeine. I know some overdo it but I didn't really feel the urge to... I was told I'd need 3 and I had one and felt just fine. It wasn't world-changing enough to really hook me. But maybe it could be some kind of outlet.


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: Sobriety, painful sobriety [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28371171 - 06/23/23 09:57 AM (7 months, 2 days ago)

Also, I'd add that I'm not pursuing sobriety as some sort of moral principle about it being better than using drugs. Instead, just as a counterbalance to the way I've been living so far, leaning too far in that direction.

Aristotle's view of ethics is that one should find the mean between two extremes, eg, you shouldn't be too giving with your money like a waste, or too tight-fisted like a miser. But if someone is leaning too far in one direction already (eg they're already a miser), he sees it as acceptable to make a sort of overcorrection, for the miser to be a bit too liberal temporarily until they reach a mean.

By this same principle, I need to practice sobriety to counterbalance the bad habit I've had of late, of being too stoned.


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OfflinetheRealrollforever
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Re: Sobriety, painful sobriety [Re: CreonAntigone] * 1
    #28371535 - 06/23/23 04:40 PM (7 months, 1 day ago)

There's no chemical solution to a spiritual problem...


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The order has to be secret and no one is sure.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Sobriety, painful sobriety [Re: theRealrollforever]
    #28371623 - 06/23/23 05:36 PM (7 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

theRealrollforever said:
There's no chemical solution to a spiritual problem...




You'll forego the DMT connection upon death then?



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OfflinetheRealrollforever
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Re: Sobriety, painful sobriety [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #28371649 - 06/23/23 05:55 PM (7 months, 1 day ago)

That DID-DENT happen; what you said


--------------------


sunshine said:
The order has to be secret and no one is sure.


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: Sobriety, painful sobriety [Re: theRealrollforever] * 1
    #28372937 - 06/24/23 03:34 PM (7 months, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

theRealrollforever said:
There's no chemical solution to a spiritual problem...




You are right. And yet, this website is dedicated to that sort of, with people using mushrooms in lieu of therapy, and as a way to resolve life challenges, traumatic events, even employment challenges. Many people pose tough questions to these drugs and actually listen seriously to what they get in response and follow the advice in some cases.

I think these chemicals can, if used responsibly, help point a person to where the answer is. But the person still must act themselves.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Sobriety, painful sobriety [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28384615 - 07/04/23 09:52 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

CreonAntigone said:

Sobriety will hurt, and already is. I am feeling all the pain I have been avoiding and didn't want to feel




It's common to believe that intoxication brings relief from emotional pain & turmoil, albeit temporary.  Yet it doesn't work as well as we like to believe it does.  The voice in our head repeatedly insists it's an effective solution.  The voice is a master salesman and uses numerous strategies to sell us lies.     

Intoxication creates more pain & misery than abstinence, from a quantitative point of view.  The pain we believe we are escaping via intoxication really doesn't ever go away.  I recall once doing cocaine with some buddies after a funeral for one of our good friends.


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Invisiblejack_straw2208
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Re: Sobriety, painful sobriety [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #28384767 - 07/04/23 11:59 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

For a lot of people, I think it's an extension of smoking cigs, less about the escape, more about the inverted sanctimony.


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If you can’t tell what you desperately need, it’s probably sleep.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Sobriety, painful sobriety [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28384839 - 07/04/23 01:07 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

CA!  How's it going so far?


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OfflineMilleresque
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Re: Sobriety, painful sobriety [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #28389949 - 07/09/23 03:23 AM (6 months, 17 days ago)

Creon,


Nothing but positive vibes and agreement. You don’t know me nor I you, but I hope it’s been going all right for you. Painful sobriety in the short term, right? And it might be painful because you get to meet and see and hear and feel your real sober self…and then you have to answer that self and accept it and figure it out so that sobriety isn’t painful anymore but an adventure worth taking, for the sake of everything.

For what it’s worth I’ll state it out loud: I’ll be going from 7-8 drinks a day for two weeks, to nothing from tomorrow morning. After many months of doing almost double that amount. I’ve put myself in that position. I’m taking ownership. I’ll call in sick for work if I need to. I have high hopes of taking a 3g trip tmrw evening but doubt my anxiety/withdrawal will allow it. I might wind up visiting the local ED. I might not. I will get the shakes, I will suffer, I will not sleep and Ill be crawling up the walls thinking about my own misery and about the snake that coiled itself around my life—but I will not drink. I want to remember the person I was proud of and loved, no matter what. I want to cut the head off the snake.


Keep going and try again if you failed today. Just keep trying mate. You’ve got nothing but my utmost respect and love—even if I will never know you.


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: Sobriety, painful sobriety [Re: Milleresque] * 1
    #28390549 - 07/09/23 04:32 PM (6 months, 16 days ago)

I've not been doing so well. Drinking much less, but still using cannabis most days. I'm not sure about my mental state, though it isn't as bad as it's been before. I don't know if I'm ready, it feels very difficult to be sober. I might have to just 'take this one day at a time', as they say, and strive to be sober when I can, and treat partial wins of a day or two, or a few hours, as wins.

I'm looking for counselling. Maybe that will help.

Milleresque, thank you for the words of encouragement.

Quote:

Milleresque said:
For what it’s worth I’ll state it out loud: I’ll be going from 7-8 drinks a day for two weeks, to nothing from tomorrow morning. After many months of doing almost double that amount. I’ve put myself in that position. I’m taking ownership. I’ll call in sick for work if I need to. I have high hopes of taking a 3g trip tmrw evening but doubt my anxiety/withdrawal will allow it. I might wind up visiting the local ED. I might not. I will get the shakes, I will suffer, I will not sleep and Ill be crawling up the walls thinking about my own misery and about the snake that coiled itself around my life—but I will not drink. I want to remember the person I was proud of and loved, no matter what. I want to cut the head off the snake.
.




I'm not sure this is the right way to go. Perhaps you should speak to a doctor. Alcohol withdrawl is dangerous and can kill. A doctor can evaluate your risk of delirium tremens and can prescribe a temporary benzo script.

I understand that you want to master your addiction, but please make sure you do so in a safe manner. I'm pulling for you.


Edited by CreonAntigone (07/09/23 06:31 PM)


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: Sobriety, painful sobriety [Re: CreonAntigone] * 1
    #28391096 - 07/10/23 06:56 AM (6 months, 16 days ago)

I can't decide which approach is best in regards to cannabis - if I should take a sort of 'sirens of the Odyssey' approach - EG, as Odysseyus tied himself to the boat so he wouldn't go to the siren, I'd have to sort of tie myself and say 'no' at all times, throw away my stock of cannabis, and completely stop using it. I am such that if I do a little, eventually I'll want to do a lot when it comes to weed. So I wonder if I should just cut it off completely.

Or, the alternative is, to try and slowly wean myself off, to try and enjoy being sober more, try to be less dependent, and phase out, while still using at other times. I can try to go longer after it wears off, and not redose again - trying to cultivate sober days.

I have as of yet undecided if I should go the same approach alcoholics do, as in 'not one drop'. I'm not sure if that would be needed, but I'd do it if it would be needed. I'm not sure if that's the most effective approach though; something people need to feed the beast; those are healthier who can have a little vice and not be overcome by it, as opposed to those who can't have any vice at all, due to sensitivity.


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Offlineglanmit
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Re: Sobriety, painful sobriety [Re: CreonAntigone] * 1
    #28395933 - 07/15/23 01:56 AM (6 months, 11 days ago)

Stay strong man! Soon or later you will start to feel much better and will think about these days like about a nightmare, which is already long time gone. Some people can't make it without taking some medications, supplement and vitamins but of course you need to check what exactly would be good for you, based on your blood test. Canadian Pharmacy website offers detailed information about most of regular meds and vitamins, so worth checking out.


Edited by glanmit (07/30/23 04:34 PM)


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: Sobriety, painful sobriety [Re: glanmit] * 1
    #28396348 - 07/15/23 11:26 AM (6 months, 11 days ago)

I learned today, in part, the benefit of moderation. In the following way: I managed to take a break of 2 days from cannabis - which sounds like nothing but I had been using it daily for weeks, and my resolution of this post didn't last very long and I was right back on it. But I took my break of 2 days. Then I used a dose of 5mg last night.

Previous I'd needed 30mg or more to get fully intoxicted, with my high tolerance. 2 days isn't much of a reset but enough to at least somewhat reduce tolerance. So it got my body at least to the point of 5mg being intoxicating.

In this 5mg experience, I noticed little of the debilitation, difficulty moving and concentrating I found on the higher doses. It felt like a tiny little layer over experiences, making things more interesting, and otherwise not changing them. When it first came on I noticed because I had a very good, bodily laugh at something that was funny, genuinely funny - and I hadn't had a good laugh from cannabis for years and years, as it had no longer made things funnier for me for a long time. But here this 5mg was, bring back that effect long-forgotten, a better sense of humor, and genuinely losing to the humor.

Afterwards I passed my time doing research, watching some tv, playing a video game, idle things. Eventually I went to go for a walk and got some baklava from a stand at the local farmers market. I tried one, and had another and one more, because the taste was so compelling, the simplicity of the flavor and the pleasure of eating it. Honey and pistachio. Again this was an effect that had been lost for me - before when I was taking very high doses, flavorers weren't enhanced for me anymore; I'd long since gotten to the point of eating on cannabis feeling the same as not eating on it; in fact sometimes I felt indigestion or difficulty eating from cannabis, since I felt overloaded by sensations. But here on 5mg, it was different; the eating enhancement came back. It was the most delicious thing I'd eaten in a long time.

At the 'peak', I sat quietly on a park bench, looking at the trees and surveying the stands at the market. And I felt not quite high, but not quite sober either, something I really wasn't used to, a quiet peaceful feeling - like standing in the world and being embraced by the world, but with still the ability to keep a distance. Unlike being stoned, to be in one's head, I felt in essence being more completely in the world. I still felt a distance from the people around, however. But I was free of the paranoid suspicion that anyone would bother me at my bench; and I busied myself with the trees.

There's nothing inherently wrong with cannabis, but the problem I was trying to deal with was my using it compulsively. I'd take more and more, and then I'd get to the point of being in a completely poor state: if I take too high a dose, I'd get a high heart rate, anxious, nervous as hell, impaired and unable to do things, in effect my day takes a slow halt for hours. And I'd learned to get around that by simply waiting it out and getting sober before doing things again. But my compulsive use made it impossible to consider, instead, moderation: taking a lower dose that didn't get me to that impaired state. Taking cannabis as it is intended, as a mild enhancer of things, in moderation.

If I can keep using cannabis like this, then I may not have to shuttle it completely. If I can skip and jump from low use to low use, to have simple and peaceful experiences like this, I may no longer be racked by the guilt and dysfunction that plagued me prior. I'm not sure if I can keep it low, and use moderation; I've struggle in the past. But at least today, my eyes have opened to moderation as a positive force.

Moderation is a positive force because it actively creates new effects that weren't there before; moderation gave me taste enhancement and made my baklava taste delicious, and it made me laugh intensely at that joke. But outside of moderation, it wouldn't have done that. If I'd taken 30mg, I wouldn't have been able to go the park, likely - I'd have been in bed, with limited range of motion due to the overload of my cannabinoid receptors. I might've had to wait until later when I was more sober to go out; and if so, I would've missed the cool morning breeze and would've had to go out, still 'too high' and impaired, into a heatwave.

Moderation also suggests that drugs should be enjoyed when they are used. Previously I had tried to 'microdose' cannabis and it did not work for me - it just did not much of anything at all. A dose that functions would be better. When I microdosed, what happened is that I'd quickly vascillate back into bigger doses, and take one high enough to cause me anxiety and the heart rate increase and the discoordination. Microdose wasn't doing anything, so I used doses that were too high to 'feel something'. My experiences of today suggest that, instead, I should make room to sometimes use low but function doses. Doses that are enough to make baklava taste as good as anything has tasted to me in years - but doses that do not put me in bed, that do not impair me or make my paranoid or full of fears, but rather tamp down the fears. That middle, that partway in, is enough to show me life and also to feel something of a release from it, at the same time. A way of being in the world, but more slowly and intimately.

And if I can keep using doses like these, I think I will be much more able to not be so dependent, to stop my bad cycle, my dependence on the drug, and my too-intense-of-late pains and fears. These doses create an experience that is mellow and positive the entire time - and so I will feel less need to use it again, since I will leave peaceful. Moderation once makes it easier the next time, whereas immoderation, taking too much and causing anxiety, hurts my resolve and makes moderation the next time harder. If I could keep it in the middle, I would not be jerked here and there between every impression that comes my way. I could build things back and build a path for myself.

A little euphoria, a little piece of god - it is something that can be worth seeing. But it is indeed easy to be addictied and want to see more and more of god, to put ones head too far down, and then one becomes trapped in a cycle of trying to erase the world. Whereas, if one knows how to open into the box and then at other times put it away - that is, to take just enough of the infinite - one is on the right path.

The saying on the temple of Delphi is about moderation, because it asks us to 'know our measure'. Measure is the amount for each person, and that amount is the essence of moderation. For some people with some drugs the amount should be zero - like an alcoholic who cannot control their use. For those not wracked by such an illness, they may measure themselves out some, and find things to be better and more pleasureable, perhaps just more good.  So I shall strive to seek the middle path, between these extremes.


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OfflineSocrateshroom
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Re: Sobriety, painful sobriety [Re: CreonAntigone] * 1
    #28398859 - 07/17/23 02:20 PM (6 months, 8 days ago)

How are you CA?

As someone who quit alcohol over 3 years ago, I can tell you that sobriety from a substance comes when you are ready. When you finally feel that the substance only hurts you (even if your ego can convince you otherwise), then and only then will you truly stop.

Furthermore, life without the substance will get much, much better. Not needing to rely on something to smother the pain lets you live life more fully. But that also means that you alone need to feel and bear the weight of your suffering.

So that's the second aspect I believe is necessary. One must be ready to bear the weight of their suffering, to face it head on, and to be able to just be with the pain. And that's no easy feat, believe me.

But life can be incredibly painful. And smothering that pain only leads to delaying (and increasing) said pain.

None of this is to talk poorly on any substance. While I no longer drink, I have no qualms with others drinking. But it's not for everyone. And I am one of those people who it's not for. And that's ok.

And it was all or nothing for me. There was no possibility of moderation. It was drink or don't drink. And you need to truly reflect if that is the case for you for weed and/or alcohol. Based on your post it seems the case, at least for one of those substances.

But I wish you well. I hope you find your path and are able to shed any vices that weigh you down.


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Re: Sobriety, painful sobriety [Re: Socrateshroom]
    #28402707 - 07/21/23 09:37 AM (6 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Socrateshroom said:
And it was all or nothing for me. There was no possibility of moderation. It was drink or don't drink. And you need to truly reflect if that is the case for you for weed and/or alcohol. Based on your post it seems the case, at least for one of those substances.





Right now I found out that that's me.

Even though I made such an optimistic post about how 5mg can be enough, sure enough the next day I took a 10mg, and then a 20mg the same day, up to 85mg (!) yesterday.

So I haven't been too healthy - whenever I have too much weed by escalating dose too fast, I experience actually increased physical pain and not relief, anxiety, headaches, impaired movement, paranoia, overeating of food, hard time maintaing things (taking garbage out, etc), hard time maintaing myself. So it hasn't been a great few days, and I've stared in my face about the extent of my addiction. What I have some reason to hope for, though, is that it isn't too late for me, because my life will improve greatly as long as I do this ONE thing, to stop use.

I can't go just a little bit in for this. It may be possible my life WOULD be better in the abstract if I could just take 5mg. But I can't, because some flip switches in my brain and I use more and more. I don't know if I'll have to quit my whole life, but I've identified the addictive thought processes and how my habit overcomes my own sense. And now, I have a clear goal, to go zero cannabis, for as long as I can.

I may slip up and have some here and there, and I just have to reorient and pick myself back up and try again, and stop making compromises or excuses.

My alcohol has gotten to much less but it's still a habit without enjoyment at this point - though I do enjoy the taste of beer I don't enjoy the intoxication anymore, so I'm gonna go much less on that, though zero won't be neccesary. But I worry if I have 2 beers, the same compulsive use patters will re-emerge. So maybe I can't afford to drink either.

Quote:

As someone who quit alcohol over 3 years ago, I can tell you that sobriety from a substance comes when you are ready. When you finally feel that the substance only hurts you (even if your ego can convince you otherwise), then and only then will you truly stop.





I think I'm here and I think I'm ready. Because I realize I've had a lot of pain the past few days that I didn't have to feel - that everything is worse than it would've otherwise been if I hadn't been dosing.

I have tried many times in the past and failed. As you say, my ego was always ready to make excuses; and I always could convince myself somehow that it was OK this time - because I'd use it in a 'different way', smaller doses, more gradual, &c - and I could never maintain such promises, or I'd forget about them and go back to how it was.

I've been a bit scared by how addictive I've found cannabis. A lot of people say it can't be addictive at all or that it is only a 'psychological' addiction, as though there's nothing inherent in the substance making it addicting. But I feel it is inherently addictive or has the potential to be, because it targets your body's endorphins and makes it easier to feel pleasure and get sleep; but that eventually can cause one to become dependent on it and need it to achieve the same level of pleasure and contentment. Plus, there's a physical withdrawal in the form of a nausous feeling and insomnia. It's a drug to have caution towards. In terms of seeking it I act like an actual junkie, taking more even when I know I've already had too much.

So I can't make excuses for it, I can't cooperate with it or pray it'll get better, I have to cut it off and not let the addictive patterns arise to begin with. For now I have to zero it out, for the indefinite future.


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