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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick
    #28393064 - 07/12/23 01:40 AM (6 months, 13 days ago)

re: land ownership and acquisition.

dear enlil,

obviously land can not be owned but play along.
how does a nation acquire land (other than violence)?
are there established and respectable or even "lawful" processes for nations to acquire more land (other than violence)?

dearly,

-mm


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OfflineSulfurshelfsean
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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: MadMuncher]
    #28393114 - 07/12/23 04:29 AM (6 months, 13 days ago)

You can purchase land from other countries if they want to sell it I would think.


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Offlinerxb
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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: Sulfurshelfsean]
    #28393130 - 07/12/23 05:01 AM (6 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Sulfurshelfsean said:
You can purchase land from other countries if they want to sell it I would think.




has infact happened


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. i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications)

[quote]Enlil said:
I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]


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OfflineMilleresque
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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: rxb]
    #28393150 - 07/12/23 05:39 AM (6 months, 13 days ago)

Someone could also gift you a plot, such as an EMBASSY, or for political refuge, such as my five dozen slaves and 14 coconut junkie donkeys and I enjoy from a small volcanic atoll in the south pacific.

Nations could, earlier, also find land that wasn’t previously inhabited (such as my atoll) and claim it. Seals and gibbons couldn’t fight back.


But to be less frivolous, there’s such thing as land leases, foreign ownership through investment, et cetera. It’s quite commonplace.


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OfflineIce9
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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: Milleresque]
    #28393157 - 07/12/23 05:56 AM (6 months, 13 days ago)

You could always acquire it from the natives who are not using it properly
:lookslucrative:


--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw


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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: Ice9] * 1
    #28393162 - 07/12/23 06:12 AM (6 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Ice9 said:
You could always acquire it from the natives who are not using it properly
:lookslucrative:




dont forget to trade them some beads.


--------------------
->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <-

. i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications)

[quote]Enlil said:
I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]


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OfflineSugabearcrisp
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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: MadMuncher]
    #28393422 - 07/12/23 11:13 AM (6 months, 13 days ago)



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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: MadMuncher] * 1
    #28393455 - 07/12/23 11:44 AM (6 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

MadMuncher said:
re: land ownership and acquisition.

dear enlil,

obviously land can not be owned but play along.
how does a nation acquire land (other than violence)?
are there established and respectable or even "lawful" processes for nations to acquire more land (other than violence)?

dearly,

-mm



Purchase, discovery, creation, and treaty.


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Offlinerxb
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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: Enlil]
    #28393477 - 07/12/23 12:13 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

you can potentially annex land .... or the government level form of squatting....

this is ours now...deal with it. doesnt have to be forceful or civil sometimes its inbetween.


i guess we can file flag planting under this as well... like eddie izzards skit...

"we were here first"

"alreight where is your flag"

" well we dont have one"

"too bad, no flag no country...because of these rules that i have made up just now"


--------------------
->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <-

. i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications)

[quote]Enlil said:
I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]


Edited by rxb (07/12/23 12:16 PM)


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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: rxb]
    #28393478 - 07/12/23 12:16 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

those are the only ways for a nation to acquire land legitimately?
how is the treaty process supposed to work and are there any examples of treaty without violence?
i realize these questions may be as much spiritual and/or philosophical as political but in the process of spiritual reawakening which is the return to the concept of oneness: the reverence and rememberance that all is One, survival demands abiding the rules like borders and fences and authority

Quote:

rxb said:
Quote:

Ice9 said:
You could always acquire it from the natives who are not using it properly
:lookslucrative:




dont forget to trade them some beads.





this is a metaphor for violence and so, illegitimate


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: MadMuncher]
    #28393484 - 07/12/23 12:22 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

Treaties are just agreements. Most don't involve violence.

How does violence undercut legitimacy?


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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: Enlil]
    #28393548 - 07/12/23 01:46 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Treaties are just agreements. Most don't involve violence.




can authority exist without violence (or threat of)?

Quote:


How does violence undercut legitimacy?




it is not on the list

•purchase
•discovery
•creation
•treaty


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: MadMuncher]
    #28393550 - 07/12/23 01:48 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

Violence can be a part of any of those things on the list, though.  It doesn't have to be, but it can be. Besides, you specifically asked for a list of ways "other than violence."  Violence is still a legitimate and viable way of acquiring and holding land.

Authority can exist without violence or threat thereof. Power requires violence or a threat of violence, however.


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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: Enlil]
    #28393564 - 07/12/23 02:03 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

i was going to post that same thing :sword:

do the rules apply or not? violence is against the rules. come on now


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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: MadMuncher]
    #28393565 - 07/12/23 02:05 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

What rules are you talking about?  Rules are a social construct.  They apply insofar as society chooses to apply them.


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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: Enlil]
    #28393671 - 07/12/23 04:41 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

yes enlil, lots of things are social constructs and we are all aware that it is just hocus pocus, thats like 4th grader stuff.
if you dismiss the subject we will never get to the second page.
we are not going to debate you on subjects that do not require opinions.
the rules exist. try parking in your neighbors living room. try casually walking through a border checkpoint.
power is the exemption; the rules exist, same rules that all nations/authorities are founded on. feel free to bring up a supportive example if you want


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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: MadMuncher]
    #28393684 - 07/12/23 04:48 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

You can't just a priori determine that violence is against the rules.  Nowhere on the planet is that the rule.  You literally just made that up.


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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: Enlil]
    #28393711 - 07/12/23 05:12 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

not me some dutch guy
Per the Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution, federal statutes and treaties are equally regarded as "supreme law of the land".
The legally binding nature of treaties under the Constitution has been consistently recognized by the courts; as early as 1796, the U.S. Supreme Court, in Ware v. Hylton, applied the Supremacy Clause for the first time in ruling that a treaty superseded conflicting state law. Although the Ware decision did not address the Treaty Clause explicitly, it held that both states and private citizens were bound to comply with the treaty obligations of the federal government, which was in turn bound to the "Law of Nations" with respect to honoring treaties.
Vattel's work profoundly influenced the development of international law.
In 2015 the United States Department of Defense published its Law of War Manual. Vattel is cited after Hugo Grotius and before Francis Lieber and Hersch Lauterpacht as a subsidiary means and an authority in determining the rules of law of war.


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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: MadMuncher]
    #28393715 - 07/12/23 05:20 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

Nothing in there says violence is against the rules.


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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: Enlil]
    #28393795 - 07/12/23 06:24 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

does the paper say that swords are heavier than pens?
answer using only hand gestures


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OfflineIce9
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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: MadMuncher]
    #28393804 - 07/12/23 06:31 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

:growafuck:

calm down its a joke


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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: Enlil]
    #28394997 - 07/14/23 05:12 AM (6 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

MadMuncher said:
re: land ownership and acquisition.

dear enlil,

obviously land can not be owned but play along.
how does a nation acquire land (other than violence)?
are there established and respectable or even "lawful" processes for nations to acquire more land (other than violence)?

dearly,

-mm



Purchase, discovery, creation, and treaty.




States do eminent domain. Does the federal government still do that? I could see legitimate reasons like interstate highways, and controversial cases for mining/energy. With the latter, it's frequently already federal land that that gets "rezoned" from protected natural areas to probably leased. Seems like small areas of land involved compared to the old days; parts of Alaska could be an exception.

Discovery in continental U.S. is about exhausted, and purchase for fair price is expensive.

3rd world is a different story (or maybe not). The governments may be that needy and/or corrupt. Not sure what the arrangements are, e.g., for destroying the Amazon rain forests.


--------------------
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I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: MadMuncher]
    #28395031 - 07/14/23 06:16 AM (6 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Violence can be a part of any of those things on the list, though.  It doesn't have to be, but it can be. Besides, you specifically asked for a list of ways "other than violence."  Violence is still a legitimate and viable way of acquiring and holding land.

Authority can exist without violence or threat thereof. Power requires violence or a threat of violence, however.




Quote:

MadMuncher said:
i was going to post that same thing :sword:

do the rules apply or not? violence is against the rules. come on now




While some disagree, the state's monopoly on the legitimate use of force/violence is accepted. The exception would be when the state's own legitimacy is highly questioned. Political squabbles and culture war has people here questioning the government's legitimacy more than I can ever remember including the 1960's. But it's almost entirely just a conversation topic. Middle class decline or not, we have it way to good to challenge the system. That's a topic for another day.

I completely agree with Enlil's statement that power requires violence or the threat of violence. Although force might be a better term. The threat of imprisoning people may be just as effectively coercive as killing them. But the statement, authority can exist without violence or threat thereof, depends heavily on the word "can". Ultimately, I think, authority requires potentially forceful consequences to those defying authority.


--------------------
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The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: Brian Jones]
    #28395161 - 07/14/23 08:47 AM (6 months, 11 days ago)

Authority requires only authorization from those being governed by the authority.  One can have the authority to decide who eats first, but that authority is wholly dependent on consent of the governed.  If, however, someone refuses to comply, that authority may be meaningless without the power to enforce it.


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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: Enlil]
    #28395288 - 07/14/23 11:16 AM (6 months, 11 days ago)

Likewise resistance to power without means of countering force used to enforce it is meaningless.

Just ask the democratic resistance in Myanmar how important being able to 3d print firearms is to their survival


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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28395352 - 07/14/23 12:17 PM (6 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Likewise resistance to power without means of countering force used to enforce it is meaningless.




Gandhi disagrees.  At a large enough scale civil disobedience can be effective.


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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw


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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: Enlil]
    #28632830 - 01/24/24 04:56 AM (3 days, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:

Authority can exist without violence or threat thereof. Power requires violence or a threat of violence, however.






knowledge itself is power


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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28632834 - 01/24/24 04:57 AM (3 days, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Likewise resistance to power without means of countering force used to enforce it is meaningless.

Just ask the democratic resistance in Myanmar how important being able to 3d print firearms is to their survival




existence itself is resistance


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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: MadMuncher]
    #28632877 - 01/24/24 06:01 AM (3 days, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

MadMuncher said:
Quote:

Enlil said:

Authority can exist without violence or threat thereof. Power requires violence or a threat of violence, however.






knowledge itself is power





You can have several PHDs and a .50 cal taken to that smart noggin ends everything....when you can end someone's existence or imprison it perpetually, doesnt matter how smart you are. If we listened to knowledge and reason, wars would be fought with debates and debreiefs on what to do.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #28633910 - 01/24/24 11:41 PM (2 days, 19 hours ago)

i do not usually engage with terrorist sympathizers, but this is important and i want you to be heard.
my statement holds true and is a supplemental correction and not an absolute contraindication to enlils statement (we were misinformed because so many have lied and the truth was hidden from us). what you are saying is antithetical to the sciences. not cool. try again if you want, let me know if you get stuck or need a supportive example


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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: MadMuncher]
    #28634095 - 01/25/24 07:30 AM (2 days, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

MadMuncher said:
Quote:

Enlil said:

Authority can exist without violence or threat thereof. Power requires violence or a threat of violence, however.






knowledge itself is power



Knowledge certainly enhances power in many cases.  I wouldn't agree that knowledge itself is power, though.  Knowledge is simply one tool to exert power, not unlike the 50bmg SirTripAlot is so fond of.  If unused, whether by pulling the trigger or giving the impression of being willing to pull the trigger, it has no inherent power at all.



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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: Enlil]
    #28634101 - 01/25/24 07:33 AM (2 days, 11 hours ago)

intelligence can also make you miserable. some 'power' :lol::suicide:


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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: mushboy]
    #28634103 - 01/25/24 07:35 AM (2 days, 11 hours ago)

The most powerful have historically been very miserable people.


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Re: Attn: Political Forum Residents; Cc: Enlil; chopstick [Re: Enlil]
    #28634147 - 01/25/24 08:27 AM (2 days, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

MadMuncher said:
Quote:

Enlil said:

Authority can exist without violence or threat thereof. Power requires violence or a threat of violence, however.






knowledge itself is power



Knowledge certainly enhances power in many cases.  I wouldn't agree that knowledge itself is power, though.  Knowledge is simply one tool to exert power, not unlike the 50bmg SirTripAlot is so fond of.  If unused, whether by pulling the trigger or giving the impression of being willing to pull the trigger, it has no inherent power at all.






And your packing heat Eagle? In the end, its the acceptance of seeing a modern art masterpiece left of someone on the ground (as a result of the ability) and the subservient/ consent to avoid such.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (01/25/24 09:14 AM)


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