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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Real Ego Death * 6
    #28389072 - 07/08/23 07:46 AM (6 months, 18 days ago)

Probably nearly everyone on the forum has experienced what is referred to as ego death. I have had this happen countless times with mushrooms or acid.

A couple of years ago I had a unique experience. I contracted a fatal illness...that is fatal if allowed to run its course.The majority of people with it die before it can be effectively treated. I had last stage liver failure due to cirrhosis and the liver being totally shot through with cancer. Curiously I did not feel sick until I hit the last stage of the illness. I had been very athletic. I hiked a lot, I ran long distance, and I lifted weights. When I got sick it was all at once. The first doctor who looked at me gave me less than a year to live.

Starting with diagnosis, I progressively lost all of my physical abilities over the next 6 to 7 months. By that time I was basically unable to care for myself. As my physical abilities declined.
I found that I could no longer identify as the person I once had been. I lost seventy percent of my muscle mass, sexual function was completely gone, and finally my mind started slipping due to large amounts of ammonia in my bloodstream. I would have long periods where I would lose track of myself or what was going on. I even experienced a three day coma once.

As all of your physical abilities in your mind start to go You realize suddenly all the things you were ever interested in don't seem important anymore. Your sense of time changes completely. You're not looking at your life in terms of years you're looking at it in terms of weeks. Mostly everything that you held dear or important in your life loses all meaning. Finally you start to question your self? The only thing you care about comes down to just being comfortable. Your religion, your politics, all your dearly held beliefs they come to mean absolutely nothing. There are similarities to the psychedelic ego death, but those similarities are only a shallow representation...barely a taste. Being in diapers like a baby being cared for all day really drives it home.

I got an organ transplant at ten months. For about a month I had been too sick to receive the transplant, but at a point, probably a week from my death, I rallied a little and a transplant became possible. I woke up happy I would to live a bit longer, but in terrible pain and facing an uncertain future. The recovery left me near blind and my hands permanently crippled. I was also facing several surgeries to address these issues. Then I had to adjust to being functioning in a near crippled state and with pain that takes years to heal. I was forced to make adjustments ego wise. I went in a year from being strong and athletic with many abilities to being a cripple. Because my hands were fucked being a musician was out, hiking was out due to no muscle and pain. The first year I anesthetized myself playing video games (I beat Elden Ring), but it was no substitute for real activity.

I am still disabled somewhat, but improving. I can do short hikes and many normal things. I am left with the real sense that you don't really know who you are in life. My religious views and politics and philosophies are all different, but they no longer seem as solid as before. I am really more interested in day to day life. I have done well, but all of that could go away in a minute. One bad turn of health and I would disappear like water on hot pavement. My sense of self or ego had had to go through so many adjustments that no real solid sense of self remains...it's all up for grabs...lol...and really subject to change. I am told that the next few years will see what level of recovery is possible. So you always have to be ready to change.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Real Ego Death [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #28389085 - 07/08/23 08:01 AM (6 months, 18 days ago)

Glad you're doing better Hue. I think it is easy enough to intellectualize many of these concepts but very different to experience them.

It's easy to say, ah, I am not the same person as yesterday. If I were, I could simply alter what I didn't like about myself yesterday and have a better outcome. But no, change has happened and something new is here. Obvious intellectually.

But attachment is very present yet often difficult to see clearly until it is made undeniably real. Translate attachment into whatever wording you prefer, habit, patterns, etc. So yeah, that's my takeaway and what I relate to here. All of it is temporary and attachments to this temporary stuff (ego identity) largely goes unnoticed.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Real Ego Death [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #28389121 - 07/08/23 08:33 AM (6 months, 18 days ago)

I think 'ego death' is accepting full personal responsibility at every corner fate turns in to. Taking 'it is what it is' to the root.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Real Ego Death [Re: Huehuecoyotl] * 1
    #28389181 - 07/08/23 09:48 AM (6 months, 18 days ago)

since there is no ego, "Real Ego Death" can mean whatever you what the phrase to mean.

but this story is about a very intense sequence of afflictions, and I guess it was in the last 2.5 years, as you have been hidden from us for a while now.

very happy you are back on the mend, and elated that the transplant worked.

Have you been able to do any acid during the period of recovery?


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:confused: _ :brainfart:đź§   _ :finger:


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OfflineWhoManBeing
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Re: Real Ego Death [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28389216 - 07/08/23 10:36 AM (6 months, 18 days ago)

So you got a liver transplant?

My grandfather got a liver transplant back in 1988. Was early in transplants of the liver to the times and doctors gave him five years to live.  Noticeable changes to his body came from a foreign liver. For one, grandfather began craving Snickers candy bars, and also, I don’t think he related this experience to his foreign liver, though, myself being a young child and imagination present did see of the visions of demonic like presence due to foreign liver owners own spiritual qualities.  That maybe little far fetched, just made sense at the moment.

Grandfather was told he has five years to live.  Reasoning to liver transplant was his drink and use of pills. Transplant was in his ages of late fifties.  Not such a physically active guy. Would walk a round of golf and swim and such.  It wasn’t until grandfather’s kidneys were giving out, that being 28 years after the liver transplant, that I found grandfather being in much pain as he never spoke of the pain due to knee and hip transplant, back/spine surgery, and some other minor body ailments, that gave reason, that and liver transplant, giving reason to grandfather’s daily consumption of dozen or so pills and vitamins to keep him up and healthy be cause to kidney loosing their power to function.

Eventually, due to cause of naturalists trying to help boost kidney function with natural medicine, that consumption of naturalist medicine caused grandfather’s kidney function to fall below say 8% functioning and that is of level to kidney failure. As grandfather’s kidneys were regularly functioning in the low teens percentage.

What I getting at here is, grandfather at the age of late fifties got liver transplant and lived 28 years. Could’ve lived longer had he gotten kidney transplant, but he acknowledged his death and saw to let those 6-8% functioning kidneys wear themselves out and pass on through life.

…

A note, I’ve seen an article of a girl who lost function to her arm. Her elbow and arm just stopped motor function. All the American Medical science couldn’t figure why or find the cure. Some European medical group knew of Ketamine Coma as way to reboot and bring about motor function to her arm. And sure enough, a week long Ketamine Coma did bring about her motor function of arm back. That maybe something to look into for your lose of function.

I feel for you.  And reflecting on this has me want work on physical health and activities more so than am. As was in gym, better practice to yoga and such, and been slacking due to what so hoping to brush off a midlife crisis here soon. 

I have once broken both my legs. Later got to jogging fifty mile weeks, even, body building to better physic.

I know you know more so to own position here.  I can tell you, that some out going athlete that once was prior to physical ailment treated is still there.  Hope that the happiness you had for life then still be there to happiness of life now.


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Hip, hip... WhoRAy!!!

Eye was thinking the other day...  ahh, thinking never done me no good.



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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Real Ego Death [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #28389341 - 07/08/23 01:02 PM (6 months, 18 days ago)

Psychedelics have beat the ego out of me a couple times. I once had an explosive kundalini experience the day after tripping that left me blind for a minute and not knowing who I was, my "ego" thinking I would need permanent care, not being able to form coherent sentences for about half an hour. I was sensitized for a couple months after that. A couple tokes of weed might send me tripping again.

But things tend to normalize eventually. The ego returns but perhaps more humble and realistic. Still afraid of death but more accepting of it. Still selfish but less self centered if that makes sense.

I'm glad you are seeing improvements and hope they continue. :thumbup:

I suppose we're all just animals, having an experience, hopefully a good one with liberty and respect for the liberty of others.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Real Ego Death [Re: Rahz]
    #28389363 - 07/08/23 01:34 PM (6 months, 18 days ago)

how is ego different from your memory and reflexes?


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:confused: _ :brainfart:đź§   _ :finger:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Real Ego Death [Re: Kickle]
    #28389366 - 07/08/23 01:37 PM (6 months, 18 days ago)

It was fascinating to see my attachments fall away as my realization of my impending death solidified. Equally too see new ones established as I recovered.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Real Ego Death [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28389370 - 07/08/23 01:39 PM (6 months, 18 days ago)

I use "ego" to refer to one's self identity. It is a collection of thoughts about the self that create the illusion of who we think we are.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Real Ego Death [Re: Rahz]
    #28389371 - 07/08/23 01:42 PM (6 months, 18 days ago)

My ego has reasserted itself since I've recovered some. However, after having so much traumatic change I feel less "solid" about who I am.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Real Ego Death [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #28389375 - 07/08/23 01:45 PM (6 months, 18 days ago)

I began to embrace who I am after my own escapades in the ICU, but I didn't really do that before and new experiences will do that anyway, especially over several years.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Real Ego Death [Re: WhoManBeing]
    #28389378 - 07/08/23 01:48 PM (6 months, 18 days ago)

I am now...at 58...in the same condition as your grandfather then. My kidneys also took a hit. It's common with liver failure. I haven't noticed and new tastes evolving. My hand issue is rheumatoid arthritis the liver failure jump started...thanks liver failure...just what I needed...lol.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Real Ego Death [Re: Huehuecoyotl] * 1
    #28389385 - 07/08/23 01:58 PM (6 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
It was fascinating to see my attachments fall away as my realization of my impending death solidified. Equally too see new ones established as I recovered.




I bet duder. Im not sure how accurate this is but it makes a lot of sense to me. The ego is more than willing to suffer in order to be in charge. But once it realizes the gig is up, it moves on. The one thing the ego can't stand, is extinction/cessation. What's there to control then?

The more things going extinct/ceasing to be at once, the less the ego sticks around.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Real Ego Death [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28389393 - 07/08/23 02:07 PM (6 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
how is ego different from your memory and reflexes?




Ego in the colloquial sense generally refers to a person's attitude towards self and others.

"He's got a big memory" just isn't the same.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Real Ego Death [Re: Rahz]
    #28389399 - 07/08/23 02:12 PM (6 months, 18 days ago)

My :2cents:

Memory is rarely impaired by losing functionality but ego often is. In this light, memory seems not to be a synonym.

Reflex is a catch all term for continuation without any realness or permanence. Ego is that but more narrowly defined. Not everything reflexive is identified with. But that which reflects and is identified with, becomes egoic.

Combining the two: memory as what leads to identification with a reflection. Maybe. Unfalsifiable ya know. Also difficult to pin down memory imo. Memory is often incorporated into the ego, which seems odd if it were driving identity itself. What is identified as memory, by memory? Just one of millions of questions to ask about memory.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Real Ego Death [Re: Kickle]
    #28389444 - 07/08/23 03:02 PM (6 months, 17 days ago)

I think, in the common use, ego is the embarrassing part of personality. Like the asshole factor.

In no other than common use is ego a consistent concept except for it being an aspect of self.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:đź§   _ :finger:


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OfflineLion
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Re: Real Ego Death [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #28390174 - 07/09/23 10:00 AM (6 months, 17 days ago)

I forget the origin and exact wording of this phrase, but I read something like, "We encounter and confront death in the world, not in our minds." It stuck with me and it appears to be true. We can die a thousand deaths through entheogens, orgasm, neurotic nighttime thoughts, various other forms of suffering, or whatever else, but the real confrontation with death happens in the world: the disappearance from this world of our loved ones and ourselves.

I was also reminded, by what you said about of the sudden loss of meaning and points of reference, of one of my favorite book quotes:

Quote:

It takes so little, so infinitely little for someone to find himself on the other side of the border, where everything - love, convictions, faith, history - no longer has meaning.  The whole mystery of human life resides in the fact that it is spent in the immediate proximity of, and even in direct contact with, that border, that it is separated from it not by kilometers but by barely a millimeter. - Milan Kundera, The Unbearable Lightness of Being




It sounds like a terrible ordeal, and I'm glad to hear you've recovered some of your former strength. Wishing you well.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Real Ego Death [Re: Lion] * 1
    #28399059 - 07/17/23 05:46 PM (6 months, 8 days ago)

You can confront death in the mind because the mind can't really imagine it's absence. It was less terrifying  than you would suspect.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Real Ego Death [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #28399130 - 07/17/23 06:53 PM (6 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
how is ego different from your memory and reflexes?




Ego in the colloquial sense generally refers to a person's attitude towards self and others.

"He's got a big memory" just isn't the same.



right so it is a remembered (and relived) attitude complex (action and thought responses), which is a package of perceptible reflex associations related to the the triggering context which includes the idea of a persistent self as separate from others and the world.

"He's got some attitude" works so does than "His self importance is too much".

Loosing a sense of separate self, and not losing consciousness probably counts for "ego loss"


--------------------
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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Real Ego Death [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28410485 - 07/27/23 02:40 PM (5 months, 30 days ago)

David Lieberman said that ego is inversely correlated to self esteem. To make one feel good about themselves will quell the combative ego, and to cause them to question their self esteem, respectively... well you get it.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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