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Sugabearcrisp
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Does the Hunter Biden gun charge pass the Bruen test
#28388983 - 07/08/23 04:43 AM (6 months, 17 days ago) |
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The landmark New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. Bruen set a new test for constitutionality of gun laws.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/supreme-court-agrees-to-hear-controversial-gun-case-that-could-allow-abusers-to-possess-guns_n_6496096ae4b08f753c2c0797
In this case Rahimi checked no on question 21 j of form 4473 even though he knew he was subject to a restraining order for domestic abuse (scumbag) "Are you subject to a court order, including a Military Protection Order issued by a military judge or magistrate, restraining you from harassing, stalking, or threatening your child or an intimate partner or child of such partner?"
On appeal after applying the bruen test the fifth court struck down as unconstitutional 18 U.S.C. ยง 922(g)(8), which prohibits the possession of firearms by persons subject to domestic-violence restraining orders, because it violates the Second Amendment on its face.
So our first son was/is accused of checking no on another box of the 4473 question 21 g
" Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance? Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or decriminalized for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside."
I think if Hunter had gotten convicted he could have had it tossed on the same bruen test and in doing so struck down the section of law backing 21 g on the 4473.
What do you think?
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rxb
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Re: Does the Hunter Biden gun charge pass the Bruen test [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
#28388988 - 07/08/23 05:23 AM (6 months, 17 days ago) |
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hunter biden news is barely even political.
hunter isnt a politician, so if he criminally obtains a gun, its no different that the other people criminally obtaining guns this hour.
which doesnt make it ok, but it is boring.
if biden makes hunter an advisor....gives him an office... or has him negotiate peace deals i would be right there with you going WTF is this asshole doing in government
but he is just a shcmoe of joes... he isnt important.
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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mushboy
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Re: Does the Hunter Biden gun charge pass the Bruen test [Re: rxb]
#28389021 - 07/08/23 06:29 AM (6 months, 17 days ago) |
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but her emails?!??!
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rxb
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Re: Does the Hunter Biden gun charge pass the Bruen test [Re: mushboy]
#28389063 - 07/08/23 07:34 AM (6 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
mushboy said: but her emails?!??!
indeed. she has emails.
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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gww
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Re: Does the Hunter Biden gun charge pass the Bruen test [Re: rxb] 1
#28389077 - 07/08/23 07:52 AM (6 months, 17 days ago) |
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The gov only pursues people that are felons under these laws. If they pursued them against every body, they would have to charge half of the gun owners in america. Hunter is high profile and so they made an exception or did it along the way my speeding tickets get reduced to faulty muffler. Nobody would have a gun if they really did pursue these charges and anybody that lives in the real world knows this from personal experience. I doubt this charge makes hunter a master criminal. I could see how the right could look down on hunter for not pursuing it all the way to the supreme court so it could fit under the bruin ruling but that is not real life except for zealots and this is only zealots with lots of money. Cheers gww
Edited by gww (07/08/23 07:55 AM)
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Brian Jones
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Re: Does the Hunter Biden gun charge pass the Bruen test [Re: mushboy]
#28389207 - 07/08/23 10:24 AM (6 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
mushboy said: but her emails?!??!
Lock her up! If they investigated her for that long, then obviously must have been guilty. And they publicized the investigation before an election. They being the deep state.
Sounds exactly like Trump with a different pronoun. What changed?
First we didn't like her. Now we don't like him.
We all exaggerate how much objectivity is the basis for our social opinions, compared to what side we're on first, and then finding evidence that fits.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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mycosis


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Re: Does the Hunter Biden gun charge pass the Bruen test [Re: gww] 1
#28389386 - 07/08/23 01:59 PM (6 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
gww said: The gov only pursues people that are felons under these laws. If they pursued them against every body, they would have to charge half of the gun owners in america. Hunter is high profile and so they made an exception or did it along the way my speeding tickets get reduced to faulty muffler. Nobody would have a gun if they really did pursue these charges and anybody that lives in the real world knows this from personal experience. I doubt this charge makes hunter a master criminal. I could see how the right could look down on hunter for not pursuing it all the way to the supreme court so it could fit under the bruin ruling but that is not real life except for zealots and this is only zealots with lots of money. Cheers gww
Very true!
Not a single one of my lefty liberal gun control loving family are technically legit legal law abiding gun owners.
My family is rife with weed smoking coke sniffing straw purchasing felons.
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Sugabearcrisp
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Re: Does the Hunter Biden gun charge pass the Bruen test [Re: Brian Jones]
#28389409 - 07/08/23 02:26 PM (6 months, 17 days ago) |
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Well this is about the gun control laws which are political, I almost made this post about rahimi and bruen but figured we'd get more participation with hunter in the mix 
Gww from what I can tell these prosecutions happen mostly as the result of another crime, like caught with drugs while in possession of a gun. In the case of rahimi a search warrant was obtained on suspicion of involvement in a crime (shot at house after bad drug deal iirc) and when they found the guns the fact he had a restraining order resulted in prosecution as that was a slam dunk compared to the actual crime. In this sense, like most other criminal issues, poor and people of color lacking funds or access to adequate legal representation get hemmed up most. I also don't think you will find any people on the right pushing for overturning of the drugs clause on the 4473 other than me
I also want to point out that red flag laws will likely fall under bruen.
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Sugabearcrisp
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Re: Does the Hunter Biden gun charge pass the Bruen test [Re: mushboy]
#28389410 - 07/08/23 02:26 PM (6 months, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
mushboy said: but her emails?!??!
Stay on topic please
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Sugabearcrisp
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Re: Does the Hunter Biden gun charge pass the Bruen test [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
#28389442 - 07/08/23 03:00 PM (6 months, 17 days ago) |
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While reading up I also came across the case of Jared Harrison, caught with marijuana and a loaded gun. In this case the 10th circuit federal court vacated the indictment with prejudice based on same bruen test stating that the prohibiting marijuana users was unconstitutional.
https://apnews.com/article/us-supreme-court-oklahoma-state-government-new-orleans-city-c79d6fedc97ba657d2cab17f59354a95
This case has not made its way to the supreme court, yet, but the feds have said they will appeal.
At the core of these cases there is a question of whether the second amendment rights of a person can be taken away before an actual conviction and all the due process there within.
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PatrickKn


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Re: Does the Hunter Biden gun charge pass the Bruen test [Re: Sugabearcrisp] 1
#28389578 - 07/08/23 05:39 PM (6 months, 17 days ago) |
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Don't know anything about these cases in particular, just replying to your last post.
Mental competency, repeat suicidal tendencies that involve hospitalizations or police involvement, severe mental illness, etc are all reasons someone's access to weapons might be broadly restricted without committing a crime.
Obviously I don't believe marijuana use should be a reason. But as far as the overall core of the cases you mentioned, I think there are legitimate reasons you might still have broad restrictions in place even when criminal convictions haven't taken place.
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Ice9
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Re: Does the Hunter Biden gun charge pass the Bruen test [Re: PatrickKn]
#28389613 - 07/08/23 06:18 PM (6 months, 17 days ago) |
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We can place limitations on speech without a conviction (don't say you have a bomb on a plane), but no such things are allowed for the 2A. Using the Bruen Test, people should be allowed to say they have a bomb on a plane because, historically speaking, planes didn't exist when the the 1A was written.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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Sugabearcrisp
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Re: Does the Hunter Biden gun charge pass the Bruen test [Re: PatrickKn]
#28390016 - 07/09/23 06:48 AM (6 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
PatrickKn said:
Mental competency, repeat suicidal tendencies that involve hospitalizations or police involvement, severe mental illness, etc are all reasons someone's access to weapons might be broadly restricted without committing a crime.
Medical records aren't part of the background check. The mental health question on form 4473 is also very limited and would seem to only remove a very few people these days given the courts reluctance to adjudicate and involuntarily commit.
Quote:
Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?
Seems like we would need to pierce medical privacy laws as part of the 4473 to achieve the prohibition of the group you describe, would you support that?
It also makes me wonder if we should have mandatory tox/drug screening for mass shooters. It isn't a big leap to make to conclude that drugs known to increase suicidal ideation and action probably also increase mass shooting ideation and action. Ergo no guns for people on SSRIs
Edited by Sugabearcrisp (07/09/23 07:47 AM)
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Sugabearcrisp
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Re: Does the Hunter Biden gun charge pass the Bruen test [Re: Ice9]
#28390019 - 07/09/23 06:54 AM (6 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Ice9 said: We can place limitations on speech without a conviction (don't say you have a bomb on a plane), but no such things are allowed for the 2A. Using the Bruen Test, people should be allowed to say they have a bomb on a plane because, historically speaking, planes didn't exist when the the 1A was written.
There is a rich history of restricting 1a, see Alien and Sedition Acts and Comstock laws as well as various blasphemy and national security laws.
But anyways what is your solution now that the bruen test is in place?
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PatrickKn


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Re: Does the Hunter Biden gun charge pass the Bruen test [Re: Sugabearcrisp] 1
#28390075 - 07/09/23 08:03 AM (6 months, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Sugabearcrisp said:
Quote:
PatrickKn said:
Mental competency, repeat suicidal tendencies that involve hospitalizations or police involvement, severe mental illness, etc are all reasons someone's access to weapons might be broadly restricted without committing a crime.
Medical records aren't part of the background check. The mental health question on form 4473 is also very limited and would seem to only remove very few people these days given the courts reluctance to adjudicate and involuntarily commit.
Quote:
Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?
Seems like we would need to pierce medical privacy laws as part of the 4473 to achieve the prohibiting the group you describe, would you support that?
It also makes me wonder if we should have mandatory tox/drug screening for mass shooters. It isn't a big leap to make to conclude that drugs known to increase suicidal ideation and action probably also increase mass shooting ideation and action. Ergo no guns for people on SSRIs
Medical records themselves don't need to be part of the background check, nor does the mental health questions on forms used to conduct a background check need to be overreaching, to support the point I was saying though. Namely that a criminal conviction isn't the only prerequisite to an individual's right to possess, purchase or own a firearm being restricted and probably shouldn't be. I would also argue that involuntary commitment and an individual being deemed mentally incompetent, a danger to themselves and/or others or being incapable of self care are all common enough that it's relevant legally, even if there is reluctance to do so.
I don't believe piercing medical privacy laws is necessary to achieve an efficient background check process. Nor do I think the restrictions need to be overreaching for all types of mental illness or assumed threat. If a court or other agency given the ability to deem someone unfit to possess a weapon does so, the designation itself should be enough for whatever time period is appropriate without needing to violate their health privacy.
I think requiring a criminal conviction as a prerequisite for restricting someone's rights to possess a weapon sets a bad precedent where courts are incentivized to charge people criminally, and police more readily initiate criminal cases for mental health episodes in order to provide for public safety, where a legal designation that someone is restricted from firearms for a set period might be more appropriate and less of a burden to the person in question..
Edited by PatrickKn (07/09/23 08:28 AM)
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Sugabearcrisp
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Re: Does the Hunter Biden gun charge pass the Bruen test [Re: PatrickKn] 1
#28390129 - 07/09/23 09:03 AM (6 months, 16 days ago) |
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Okay, I think you are advocating for more adjudication of people as mentally defective (unfit) by either a court or other agency, is that correct? Would that court or other agency be able to pierce medical privacy to make that determination?
On the last point about incentivizing courts to pursue convictions I would counter that is a good thing because unlike an adjudication proceeding the person is being granted due process in a criminal proceeding.
Further I will point out that such practices are condemned by many organizations due to their abuse by relatives and for profit medicine that benefits from forced mental treatment. Brittany Spears was being charged $60k per month = $720k per year during her involuntary treatment.
https://www.cchrint.org/2023/01/23/involuntary-commitment-forced-mental-health-treatment-violate-human-rights/
This is why I am suggesting that we tie the mental health check to the gun purchase itself.
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Sugabearcrisp
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Re: Does the Hunter Biden gun charge pass the Bruen test [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
#28429038 - 08/10/23 08:05 PM (5 months, 15 days ago) |
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The fifth circuit court has ruled that cannabis users should not have their gun rights stripped while sober, drawing a direct corollary to alcohol use.
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/08/09/fifth-circuits-holds-that-people-who-use-marijuana-dont-lose-second-amendment-rights-at-least-when-sober/printer/
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gww
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Re: Does the Hunter Biden gun charge pass the Bruen test [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
#28429044 - 08/10/23 08:09 PM (5 months, 15 days ago) |
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One thing me and the supreme court agree on.
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Sugabearcrisp
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Re: Does the Hunter Biden gun charge pass the Bruen test [Re: gww]
#28471938 - 09/17/23 06:25 AM (4 months, 8 days ago) |
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Well Hunter has been indicted on 3 charges related to guns and drugs.
As I predicted Hunter's lawyers are now arguing that those charges rely on gun control laws that are failing the bruen test in both the rahimi and daniels cases.
The richness of the irony that ol Joe helped write the law that his son will now argue is unconstitutional is next level.
Maybe the lying on the form fails bruen but the charge based on the picture of him holding a gun while doing drugs probably still passes bruen, imho
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Ice9
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Re: Does the Hunter Biden gun charge pass the Bruen test [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
#28471953 - 09/17/23 06:42 AM (4 months, 8 days ago) |
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This situation is as ironic as rain on a wedding day!
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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Brian Jones
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Re: Does the Hunter Biden gun charge pass the Bruen test [Re: Ice9]
#28472042 - 09/17/23 08:18 AM (4 months, 8 days ago) |
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It may be ironic.
I remember reading some English professor's comment that none of the lines in that Alanis Morrisette song are actually examples of irony.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Ice9
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Re: Does the Hunter Biden gun charge pass the Bruen test [Re: Brian Jones]
#28472046 - 09/17/23 08:20 AM (4 months, 8 days ago) |
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Yes, that was the inference I was hoping people would take from my post.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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gww
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Re: Does the Hunter Biden gun charge pass the Bruen test [Re: Ice9]
#28472069 - 09/17/23 08:43 AM (4 months, 8 days ago) |
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I would just say on these specific charges. I do not really know one person who has not did prison time that does not own a gun. I do know many that do all kinds of drugs and many that don't and see no difference in having guns. At work we used to take the position that just because management has a shop rule, if everyone was violating it and they never enforced it they could not wake up one day and just pick somebody and bust them with out giving prior warning that they were going to start enforcing it. The paper work is like when you join this forum or buy a house, nobody reads them or cares. Many things are against the law. I think in one state there is a law that you are required to have a spittoon in your house for company. I know you can not mix baking soda and dish soap and spray you food plants to with the purpose to kill bugs. I am just saying in the interest of justice, we all know this law is not one that is enforced just by looking at our neighbors. I know so many people that would be up for a ten year sentence if it were taken seriously.
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rxb
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Re: Does the Hunter Biden gun charge pass the Bruen test [Re: gww]
#28472108 - 09/17/23 09:15 AM (4 months, 8 days ago) |
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its ironic that the song about irony contains almost no examples of irony...
dont you think?
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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