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OfflineJoh.Ke
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Registered: 07/03/23
Posts: 353
Last seen: 30 minutes, 56 seconds
Re: Recently Married, Wife doesn't want to show me Bank Account Status [Re: theRealrollforever] * 1
    #28418958 - 08/03/23 03:55 PM (5 months, 23 days ago)


Quote:

koraks said:
Quote:

encryptor said:
We got into an argument about it. 




This is the problem, not so much the question if you're entitled to review her financial status. If you, as a couple, aren't capable of working out something like this without getting into an argument, you seem to have a long way to go in terms of establishing a fruitful relationship.





Not really.  Personally I think it's a reasonable thing to get into an argument over.  In some jurisdictions, if a spouse takes on debt during the course of a marriage, the other spouse is responsible for it, too.  So if she's racking up debt, he should be entitled to know that.  He should have the right to protect himself and his assets.

It's just very strange to me that a spouse refuses to show their bank account to the other spouse.  I am not saying they are under an obligation to share, but the commonly done thing is that couples should tell one another about this kind of stuff.


Edited by Joh.Ke (08/03/23 03:55 PM)


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Anonymous #3

Re: Recently Married, Wife doesn't want to show me Bank Account Status [Re: Joh.Ke]
    #28419682 - 08/03/23 09:44 PM (5 months, 22 days ago)

I agree that if you cannot communicate about big things like your finances with your partner, that's a problem. Arguments are not going to be as productive as intentional conversations and are likely to breed resentment.

I don't understand marriage and don't have an interest in it myself, but in all my domestic partnerships, I have kept my own finances private and never expected my partner to show me their bank account.

I have always discussed finances as far as  our financial responsibilities towards our shared expenses such as housing, utilities, and food, but do not feel my partners are entitled to have access to information about the money that I work hard for, the credit I take care of, my debt, and what I've got tucked away in savings as long as I'm upholding my financial responsibilities as far as our shared expenses go.

OPs situation is a little more tricky because his wife was unable to work due to her immigration status (something he knew when they married) which means he agreed to carry her financially until she found her footing again, and while he stated they agreed to pay bills based on income, he didn't say they agreed to have complete transparency and access to each other's bank statements AND he stated she JUST got this new job.

I personally think it's reasonable to let her get her own finances sorted so she can get her budget straight to contribute to household expenses, (I have done this for a partner when they had been unemployed and just got a new job) but if they can't discuss it without arguing, they'll never arrive to a reasonable conclusion, and frankly if someone yelled at me for not showing them my bank statements, I'd be LESS transparent in the future.


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OfflineJoh.Ke
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Registered: 07/03/23
Posts: 353
Last seen: 30 minutes, 56 seconds
Re: Recently Married, Wife doesn't want to show me Bank Account Status [Re: Anonymous #3]
    #28420318 - 08/04/23 10:27 AM (5 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Anonymous #3 said:
he didn't say they agreed to have complete transparency and access to each other's bank statements




If the wife cites, "we never had an agreement before we got married that we would be completely transparent with our finances" as an excuse to keep her accounts a secret, that's extremely sketchy.


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Anonymous #3

Re: Recently Married, Wife doesn't want to show me Bank Account Status [Re: Joh.Ke]
    #28420563 - 08/04/23 01:59 PM (5 months, 22 days ago)

Not really. If I didn't explicitly agree to allow someone to look at my bank statements, then I'm complete within my rights to not allow some to access my account info.

Notice OP isn't saying "she won't agree to work out a budget with me" Or "she won't discuss finances" it's she won't let me look at her account."

Couples can work together to create a reasonable budget while still respecting each other's privacy.


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OfflineJoh.Ke
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Registered: 07/03/23
Posts: 353
Last seen: 30 minutes, 56 seconds
Re: Recently Married, Wife doesn't want to show me Bank Account Status [Re: Anonymous #3]
    #28420616 - 08/04/23 02:45 PM (5 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Anonymous #3 said:
Not really. If I didn't explicitly agree to allow someone to look at my bank statements, then I'm complete within my rights to not allow some to access my account info.



I know that you are within your right.  But I am saying that it's a sketchy thing to say to a spouse.

I am not saying his wife is compelled by law to share that info with him, it's just that it's the cultural norm.  It's what's expected of people, it's the done thing.  It's known that couples own their assets jointly and manage their finances together.

If his wife really insists on not sharing her bank info, there is nothing he can do about it.  But he can also consider initiating a divorce, which she cannot do anything about.  Or maybe he doesn't want to go to that extreme, and chooses to also keep his bank info a secret.  Which really brings the question of why they even got married in the first place.


Edited by Joh.Ke (08/04/23 02:58 PM)


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Anonymous #3

Re: Recently Married, Wife doesn't want to show me Bank Account Status [Re: Joh.Ke]
    #28420709 - 08/04/23 04:22 PM (5 months, 22 days ago)

Just because it's the cultural norm doesn't mean it's the best practice for everyone and just because it isn't the cultural norm doesn't mean it's automatically sketchy.

Absolutely he can keep his bank statements private. Sure he could get a divorce. If they don't find a way to communicate constructively that's probably the best option anyways.

As to why they got married, I don't know why anybody gets married ever, and if I got married (I wouldn't) I'd be goddamned if someone married me thinking they're entitled to half of my assets because it's "the cultural norm."


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OfflineJoh.Ke
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Registered: 07/03/23
Posts: 353
Last seen: 30 minutes, 56 seconds
Re: Recently Married, Wife doesn't want to show me Bank Account Status [Re: Anonymous #3] * 2
    #28420735 - 08/04/23 04:46 PM (5 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Anonymous #3 said:
Just because it's the cultural norm doesn't mean it's the best practice for everyone and just because it isn't the cultural norm doesn't mean it's automatically sketchy.

Absolutely he can keep his bank statements private. Sure he could get a divorce. If they don't find a way to communicate constructively that's probably the best option anyways.

As to why they got married, I don't know why anybody gets married ever, and if I got married (I wouldn't) I'd be goddamned if someone married me thinking they're entitled to half of my assets because it's "the cultural norm."




I want to make it clear that I am not saying that any time a spouse wants to keep something private it's automatically sketchy.  What I do mean is if someone uses the excuse, "well we never had an agreement about this prior to getting married", THIS is sketchy.  It's almost like a wife saying to her newly wed husband, "we never had an agreement prior to getting married that I would cook, so I am not gonna cook in this marriage".  I mean she can definitely not cook, the husband can't force her to cook, but the fact she tries to get all legal about it simply sucks and is what makes it sketchy.  Marriage should be about marrying someone you love and trying to build a life together, not a business negotiation where you try to protect yourself from the other person.

Btw, I totally agree with you that nobody should automatically be entitled to half one's assets just because they are married.  But I don't think this is due to it being a cultural norm.  It's due to the way the laws are written.


Edited by Joh.Ke (08/04/23 04:49 PM)


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Anonymous #3

Re: Recently Married, Wife doesn't want to show me Bank Account Status [Re: Joh.Ke]
    #28420774 - 08/04/23 05:25 PM (5 months, 22 days ago)

I see what you're trying to say about saying "we didn't agree to this explicitly," but I don't think cooking and having access to bank statements is an apples to apples comparison, and I think having expectations such as the other person shpuld show you bank their bank statements or expecting the other person to complete certain tasks because one person feels it is implied or expected due to cultural norms, that's equally sketchy.

One person saying "we're married so I should have access to your bank statements" is not a reasonable expectation if it has not been previously discussed so I do think "I never agreed to that" is a reasonable response to what I would consider an unreasonable
expectation.

Now, instead of arguing, the goal would be to communicate constructively to arrive at a compromise, as with any disagreement.

Also, I'm not sure where you live, but where I live if a spouse has property or assets prior to the marriage that are in their name and not the spouse's, the spouse is NOT entitled to any of it should you get divorced, unless their name has been added to the title/lease/whatever, so definitely be privy to the laws in your area before trying the knot.


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OfflineJoh.Ke
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Registered: 07/03/23
Posts: 353
Last seen: 30 minutes, 56 seconds
Re: Recently Married, Wife doesn't want to show me Bank Account Status [Re: Anonymous #3]
    #28420790 - 08/04/23 05:45 PM (5 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Anonymous #3 said:
I see what you're trying to say about saying "we didn't agree to this explicitly," but I don't think cooking and having access to bank statements is an apples to apples comparison, and I think having expectations such as the other person shpuld show you bank their bank statements or expecting the other person to complete certain tasks because one person feels it is implied or expected due to cultural norms, that's equally sketchy.




I was not comparing cooking to not showing bank accounts.  I was just using that as an example to show the ridiculousness of getting all legal about it.  But anyway.

You say it's equally sketchy to expect one's spouse to show their bank statements with the expectation that it's the norm, then I will simply ask, does this mean that a husband has no right to know his wife's whereabouts, what she's doing when out and about, what she's doing when he's not around, or if she is cheating on him? All of these things fall in the category of expectations.  Very few people explicitly talk about this prior to marriage, and people just assume that it's a given, that they will be completely honest about these things with their spouse, and most of the time the marriage works. If spouses can keep their bank statements private then I guess a husband cannot check his wife's cell phone history cause that'd be "sketchy", but she can be cheating on him with other men.  Or he cannot check her online usage, which means she could be on a dating site contemplating an affair.  So my question to you is, where do you draw the line?  What kind of stuff is ok to share in a marriage and what isn't?

Quote:


One person saying "we're married so I should have access to your bank statements" is not a reasonable expectation if it has not been previously discussed so I do think "I never agreed to that" is a reasonable response to what I would consider an unreasonable expectation.




You think it's an unreasonable expectation, however someone else might disagree.  Personally, if I were married, I would want to keep my bank info private too, but I can really see why someone might object to this.  Especially in places where marital debt is shared between the spouses.  What debt your spouse took on during the course of your marriage is now your debt, too.


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Anonymous #3

Re: Recently Married, Wife doesn't want to show me Bank Account Status [Re: Joh.Ke]
    #28420863 - 08/04/23 06:54 PM (5 months, 22 days ago)

1. No, I do not believe a spouse is entitled to know where the other is at all times and I don't believe they're entitled to look at each other's phones. If you're to the point you feel you need to look at your partner's phone and need to know where they are all the time to be sure they aren't cheating, you need marriage counseling yesterday.

2. I personally have NEVER had a relationship where I didn't discuss whether that relationship was monogamous and what my boundaries would be and what my partner's boundaries would be regarding monogamy. While monogamy may be society's default, it's not for everyone, myself included, and I absolutely communicate that upfront. If someone expected monogamy, we are not a compatible match and go our separate ways before there is even a second date. 

It may be true that most people don't discuss stuff like that prior to marriage, but that's very stupid and considering the divorce rates in my country are 50%, I wouldn't say this approach of not comminicating expectations and assuming you're on thebsame page about everything "works out just fine for most people."

3. I'm not sure where you are, but in the U.S. only 9 states considered your spouse's debt yours, and you can sign a prenup before getting married to prevent taking responsibility for your spouse's debt.

Again, it's your responsibility to make sure you know the laws in your area before tying the knot, and if you DO live in an area where spousal debt is yours, then absolutely you're seting yourself up.to get fucked over if you don't have multiple lengthy, detailed discussions about your finances and how you expect to handle them once you're married.


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OfflineJoh.Ke
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Registered: 07/03/23
Posts: 353
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Re: Recently Married, Wife doesn't want to show me Bank Account Status [Re: Anonymous #3] * 1
    #28420916 - 08/04/23 07:34 PM (5 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Anonymous #3 said:
1. No, I do not believe a spouse is entitled to know where the other is at all times




I didn't say "at all times".  And going by what you said, you are saying that a spouse is entitled to know where the other is, at least some of the times.  This is an expectation.  So you are essentially agreeing with me that spouses can have unspoken expectations prior to getting married, that are not explicitly communicated.


Quote:


and I don't believe they're entitled to look at each other's phones. If you're to the point you feel you need to look at your partner's phone and need to know where they are all the time to be sure they aren't cheating, you need marriage counseling yesterday.




It's not about whether they have the need to.  It's about whether they can reasonably expect intra-marital transparency from their spouse, without discussing about it explicitly.  A lot of people have these sorts of expectations about marriage, and they are absolutely reasonable. 

Quote:


2. I personally have NEVER had a relationship where I didn't discuss whether that relationship was monogamous and what my boundaries would be and what my partner's boundaries would be regarding monogamy. While monogamy may be society's default, it's not for everyone, myself included, and I absolutely communicate that upfront. If someone expected monogamy, we are not a compatible match and go our separate ways before there is even a second date.




And the fact you talked to potential partners about monogamy is because you know that a lot of people expect that from a relationship.  So, you are again admitting that people have unspoken expectations entering into a relationship, or a marriage.

Quote:


It may be true that most people don't discuss stuff like that prior to marriage, but that's very stupid and considering the divorce rates in my country are 50%, I wouldn't say this approach of not comminicating expectations and assuming you're on thebsame page about everything "works out just fine for most people."




I might be speculating here but I think the need to have these sorts of discussions highlights the general air of distrust in our contemporary societies, and this is what leads to the 50% divorce rates.  It's not because people are not discussing things enough prior than tying the knot.

Also, for the people who want to discuss things upfront, how would they even broach the topic.  For example, let's say they want to have a reasonable sense that their spouse is not doing something funny behind their back, how are they going to bring that up?  They can't say, "Honey I want to check your cell phone periodically.  Can I do that?"  It just doesn't sound like it would work.

Quote:


3. I'm not sure where you are, but in the U.S. only 9 states considered your spouse's debt yours, and you can sign a prenup before getting married to prevent taking responsibility for your spouse's debt.




Of course.  Signing a prenup is always a good idea.  But prenups have been overturned before, just saying.


Edited by Joh.Ke (08/04/23 08:30 PM)


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Anonymous #3

Re: Recently Married, Wife doesn't want to show me Bank Account Status [Re: Joh.Ke] * 1
    #28421044 - 08/04/23 08:46 PM (5 months, 21 days ago)

No, you're essentially just trying to put words into my mouth by exception, which doesn't bolster your point.

One partner automatically assuming something nefarious is going on when their spouse isn't accounted for isn't a reasonable conclusion to jump to, and looking at each other's phones isn't "intra-marital transparency."

I don't recall saying that people don't have expectations, but have stated that expectations are a problem and should be discussed if you don't want to run into problems like the one OP is asking for advice on.

You're stating that it is okay to have expectations for your spouse that you think are reasonable because they are "society's norm." I'm stating that it is very stupid to go into relationships assuming you have the same expectations and that your expectations are reasonable, when to your partner, they may very well not be.

The only way to know if you're on the same page is to communicate your expectations instead of make assumptions based on "society's norm."


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Recently Married, Wife doesn't want to show me Bank Account Status [Re: Anonymous #3]
    #28421070 - 08/04/23 09:05 PM (5 months, 21 days ago)

Interesting thread

Quote:

Anonymous #3 said:

Couples can work together to create a reasonable budget while still respecting each other's privacy.




Makes me ponder the difference between privacy and keeping secrets.

"keeping secrets" in a marriage sounds so baaad  Yet all people keep secrets.  If you find a coworker very attractive, are you keeping a secret from your spouse?  If you inherited 50K from your grandma twenty years ago, is that keeping a secret if you don't tell your spouse?  Maybe so.


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OfflineJoh.Ke
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Registered: 07/03/23
Posts: 353
Last seen: 30 minutes, 56 seconds
Re: Recently Married, Wife doesn't want to show me Bank Account Status [Re: Anonymous #3]
    #28421125 - 08/04/23 09:29 PM (5 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Anonymous #3 said:
No, you're essentially just trying to put words into my mouth by exception, which doesn't bolster your point.

One partner automatically assuming something nefarious is going on when their spouse isn't accounted for isn't a reasonable conclusion to jump to, and looking at each other's phones isn't "intra-marital transparency."




This isn't about whether looking at each other's phone is transparency. I was asking whether people could reasonably expect intra-marital transparency from their spouse, without discussing about it explicitly.

Quote:


I don't recall saying that people don't have expectations, but have stated that expectations are a problem and should be discussed if you don't want to run into problems like the one OP is asking for advice on.




But this kind of almost legal-like approach to partnerships can run into problems, one obvious one is that there will always be stuff that you didn't anticipate, and haven't talked about.  So what then?  Sounds like you would still need to fall back on expectations to find out a proper course of action.

Quote:


You're stating that it is okay to have expectations for your spouse that you think are reasonable because they are "society's norm."




That's not what I am saying. And if I did, allow me to clarify. I am saying that people can have unspoken expectations about relationships and it's absolutely reasonable that they have those. Will they run into problems if they didn't talk about things before hand?  Probably, but that doesn't mean it is wrong for people to have expectations.

An exaggerated example to show what I mean: a wife cuckolded her husband.  The husband gets angry and confronts her.  She says, "well, we never had a talk about not cheating on each other before we got married".  This would be dumb, and the husband getting angry is very understandable.  And he is operating purely on the unspoken expectation that spouses are supposed to be faithful to each other.  And no one can say he's wrong or is being unreasonable.


Quote:

I'm stating that it is very stupid to go into relationships assuming you have the same expectations and that your expectations are reasonable, when to your partner, they may very well not be.




You call this stupid, but it's actually how society works.  When we move about in the society and interact with other people, we make all kinds of assumptions and have all kinds of expectations and none of these have been communicated explicitly, and these interactions are largely facilitated by social norms. In fact, this is the only way it can work, because it's not possible to discuss expectations with everybody you are going to come across.

Of course, when you are marrying someone, it's a little different.  But the same overall principle still applies.  It is not possible to cover every single thing that you think might happen in the marriage.  There are going to be situations that your pre-marital talk hasn't talked about.  So what then?


Edited by Joh.Ke (08/04/23 09:42 PM)


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OfflineJoh.Ke
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Registered: 07/03/23
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Re: Recently Married, Wife doesn't want to show me Bank Account Status [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28421170 - 08/04/23 09:54 PM (5 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Interesting thread

Quote:

Anonymous #3 said:

Couples can work together to create a reasonable budget while still respecting each other's privacy.




Makes me ponder the difference between privacy and keeping secrets.

"keeping secrets" in a marriage sounds so baaad  Yet all people keep secrets.  If you find a coworker very attractive, are you keeping a secret from your spouse?  If you inherited 50K from your grandma twenty years ago, is that keeping a secret if you don't tell your spouse?  Maybe so.



Personally, if my spouse tried to keep their bank accounts private, I would think that they are trying to hide certain assets from me so that I would not be able to claim them in the event of a divorce.  I would also think that they have plans to divorce me in the future.


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Anonymous #3

Re: Recently Married, Wife doesn't want to show me Bank Account Status [Re: Joh.Ke]
    #28421205 - 08/04/23 10:31 PM (5 months, 21 days ago)

I think marriage and cohabitation are a LOT different that simple societal expectations that we hold, not just "a little different," as personal/intimate/romantic partnerships are far more intricate than your interaction with a batrista, grocery clerk, or coworker. You aren't building a life with any of those people, and every relationship dynamic will be different so it's important to lay the groundwork and discuss major topics early. 

The things we're discussing are BIG things in marriages, like managing finances, handling trust issues, division of labor. I think all of these elements are going to be different in every relatiomship dynamic, and if you know yourself and what expectations you have, and what you need and what you won't tolerate in a relatiomship, then you have a responsibility to verbalize that.

You keep  talking about the "legal aspect" that I'm bringing into the conversation. A marriage certificate is a legal document and filing for divorce is a legal process, so marriage is then a cohabitation with a legal element and more people should treat it as such prior to signing the contract. 

Like I have stated already, I'm not interested in marriage as I value my independence too much, have done well for myself alone, and don't care to have anyone coming in with unspoken expectations about how they feel I should behave when I've become accustomed to moving through the world as I wish.

I communicate my requirements and boundaries and ask my partners to do the same, and when something we haven't previously discussed comes up, we discuss it. And sometimes we revisit things. Sometimes more than once. And if we have a conflict or incompatability for which we can't reach a reasonable conclusion, it's time to walk away. It's a pretty simple concept that could certainly be applied to monogamous marriages as well.

I feel like I'm just beating a dead horse at this point. Communicate and work together instead of arguing or violating your partner's privacy because you feel your unspoken expectations haven't been met, and be very careful whom you marry.


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Anonymous #3

Re: Recently Married, Wife doesn't want to show me Bank Account Status [Re: Joh.Ke]
    #28421215 - 08/04/23 10:44 PM (5 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Joh.Ke said:
Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Interesting thread

Quote:

Anonymous #3 said:

Couples can work together to create a reasonable budget while still respecting each other's privacy.




Makes me ponder the difference between privacy and keeping secrets.

"keeping secrets" in a marriage sounds so baaad  Yet all people keep secrets.  If you find a coworker very attractive, are you keeping a secret from your spouse?  If you inherited 50K from your grandma twenty years ago, is that keeping a secret if you don't tell your spouse?  Maybe so.



Personally, if my spouse tried to keep their bank accounts private, I would think that they are trying to hide certain assets from me so that I would not be able to claim them in the event of a divorce.  I would also think that they have plans to divorce me in the future.






I've cohabitated with a couple of people and in both situations had money squirreled away in case of an emergency and would suggest everybody do that.

Sometimes the things that change or come up cannot be worked out or fixed no matter how much love you have for them, and if that happens you need to be able to survive.


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Anonymous #3

Re: Recently Married, Wife doesn't want to show me Bank Account Status [Re: Anonymous #3]
    #28426896 - 08/09/23 09:18 AM (5 months, 17 days ago)

This interview was a little long, but very insightful and made me think of this thread. Thoughts on marriage and divorce from the perspective of a divorce lawyer.



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