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Moses_Davidson
Non-Prophet



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Re: Neo-Abrahamic Religion now the fastest growing faith in US [Re: Moses_Davidson]
#28420106 - 08/04/23 06:55 AM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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Is the knowledge of what is good or bad an a priori feeling or a deduction of applied logic?
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
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Re: Neo-Abrahamic Religion now the fastest growing faith in US [Re: Moses_Davidson] 1
#28420116 - 08/04/23 07:03 AM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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many animals exhibit fundamental moral behavior. kindness, consideration, tenderness, sharing food, etc. no religion no verbal logic. religion is kind of a parasite on humanity which already has a moral compass and does not need additional wrappings and trappings.
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Moses_Davidson
Non-Prophet



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Re: Neo-Abrahamic Religion now the fastest growing faith in US [Re: redgreenvines]
#28420193 - 08/04/23 08:10 AM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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Lets agree that religion is not going to help us determine this matter Quote:
redgreenvines said: many animals exhibit fundamental moral behavior. kindness, consideration, tenderness, sharing food, etc. no religion no verbal logic. religion is kind of a parasite on humanity which already has a moral compass and does not need additional wrappings and trappings.
Let's agree that religion is not going to help us in this matter because religion can't agree on whether or not we should behead or praise dissenters.
One of Sudly's memes suggests that this internal moral compass is an a priori instinctive feeling that one simply "has", while his other Wanka meme suggests that this is a function of logic.
That morality comes from instinct by feeling versus the logical deduction of fact are very different arguments when one thinks through them.
RGV, its clear that you disagree with Sudly's assertion that we "figure it out" by rational thought.
I agree that Sudly's Willie Wanka meme is not rhetorically sound, because various people and cultures use logic and come to so many different moral conclusions... then this moral logic is as inept as an appeal to the religions who can't agree on anything either.
Sudly, are you in favor of instinct, or figuring it out on this one?
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: Neo-Abrahamic Religion now the fastest growing faith in US [Re: Moses_Davidson] 1
#28420265 - 08/04/23 09:24 AM (5 months, 22 days ago) |
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I am more in favor of the use of the term instinctive, but I do not mean it to describe an in-born ability, but rather to describe the natural intelligence of perceptive reflexes that develops as creatures live their lives acquiring associative memory.
I also believe that most logic is the perceptive reflex of learned logical relationships. When we do math it is a perceptive reflex or an intuitive reflex based upon what we have learned about numbers and the relationships between them. Nothing that we do is based upon logic as such, but when we claim it is, it is because we know we can represent our process as being in the style of logic that we have learned. This includes religious thought and logic, so there is no difference between the method of thinking between cultures that prioritize religion and the cultures that prioritize science.
HOWEVER
In prioritizing science, over traditional thinking styles (eg. religious, dogmatic, imperialistic, colonistic, warring, scholastic, etc.) the element of observation and direct experiencing prevails, particularly with the observation of nature, natural processes, etc.
So.
the way i see it is not as simple as the culture war would like to make it, because I am at heart a scientific yogi. I use my breath to focus my mind and try to remain calm and observant, while intuition or perception - however you wish to describe the reflexes of my brain does the rest. (in fact my habits of following the breath and relaxing and observing are also perceptive reflexes.)
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Moses_Davidson
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Re: Neo-Abrahamic Religion now the fastest growing faith in US [Re: redgreenvines]
#28420763 - 08/04/23 05:14 PM (5 months, 21 days ago) |
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The fact that you juxtaposed science to scholastics is impressive. I don't think most would understand that there even is a difference.

But OK, lets assume that morality comes from an instinctive development.
So, we're saying that animals have been observed to display a sense of right and wrong, which is an inner compass grown from instinctive development, and human morality is a more fully-developed version of the same?
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
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Re: Neo-Abrahamic Religion now the fastest growing faith in US [Re: Moses_Davidson] 1
#28420771 - 08/04/23 05:22 PM (5 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Moses_Davidson said: The fact that you juxtaposed science to scholastics is impressive. I don't think most would understand that there even is a difference.

But OK, lets assume that morality comes from an instinctive development.
So, we're saying that animals have been observed to display a sense of right and wrong, which is an inner compass grown from instinctive development, and human morality is a more fully-developed version of the same?
human mores are more complex, more differentiated, and more confused. we introduce rules, and interpretations. this disconnects from the obvious instantly suitable intuitive responses and shifts towards externally imposed conditional case interpretation, or pretense and lying.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi


Registered: 08/16/16
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Re: Neo-Abrahamic Religion now the fastest growing faith in US [Re: redgreenvines]
#28420787 - 08/04/23 05:38 PM (5 months, 21 days ago) |
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-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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RJ Tubs 202



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Re: Neo-Abrahamic Religion now the fastest growing faith in US [Re: redgreenvines]
#28421049 - 08/04/23 08:49 PM (5 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
many animals exhibit fundamental moral behavior. kindness, consideration, tenderness, sharing food, etc.
Outside of behaviors tied to preserving family genetics or the survival of community genetics (for example, the social insects, such as bees and ants), many animals lie, cheat, and steal. We often romanticize "nature" because we are so divorced from it. Nature is often pretty nasty, as the fight for survival mandates. Zillions of examples.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Neo-Abrahamic Religion now the fastest growing faith in US [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#28421417 - 08/05/23 05:40 AM (5 months, 21 days ago) |
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Agreed,
the point I make is you do not need linguistic prowess to be moral, or to lie and cheat, however, to give religion its due, respect for stories and writing, during the pre-printing-press days and the early printing-press days has been largely due to scribes preserving and recreating holy books.
We do not all really understand it this way, but even science would not exist if not for record keeping and publishing and for that we owe it to religious institutions.
Then again suppression of publishing seems suspiciously the fault of religious institutions as well, for it is a jealous god club. And that is just not very sweet of them
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Moses_Davidson
Non-Prophet



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Re: Neo-Abrahamic Religion now the fastest growing faith in US [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#28421455 - 08/05/23 06:46 AM (5 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
human mores are more complex, more differentiated, and more confused. we introduce rules, and interpretations. this disconnects from the obvious instantly suitable intuitive responses and shifts towards externally imposed conditional case interpretation, or pretense and lying.
So let me correct my summary-- You're saying that animals have been observed to display a sense of right and wrong, which is an inner compass grown from instinctive development, and human morality is a more complicated version of the same, often corrupted from its good right-brain intuitive responses.
Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: Outside of behaviors tied to preserving family genetics or the survival of community genetics (for example, the social insects, such as bees and ants), many animals lie, cheat, and steal. We often romanticize "nature" because we are so divorced from it. Nature is often pretty nasty, as the fight for survival mandates. Zillions of examples.
I think that RJ has found a hole in our otherwise beautifully constructed boat.
Animals have no barometer for morality at all. This "inner compass" is merely genetic self-preservation. In which case, morality is to do what will multiply one's own gene pool most effectively. When competing for resources, one group of animals will kill another group.
Left to our instantly suitable intuitive responses, humans are also pretty nasty, as the fight for survival mandates... zillions of examples there too.
The constructs of "good" and "evil" only make sense when they are relative to a designated individual(s), such as what is beneficial for one's own gene pool, nation, planet, god, government, dictator, et cetera.
The construct of "Morality" is a superstitious relic of religion, in an evolutionarily indifferent world where survival of the fittest and the fight to preserve this or that gene pool is all that matters.
"Morality" is a self-esteem bolstering delusion-- the opiate of the masses for a modern age.
The internal compass of morality in animals, as well as the intuitive responses of humans, is in never-ending conflict, and is just as worthless for knowing "morality" as using the pantheon of conflicting religions and governments.
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
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Re: Neo-Abrahamic Religion now the fastest growing faith in US [Re: Moses_Davidson]
#28421467 - 08/05/23 07:02 AM (5 months, 21 days ago) |
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I never bought into right brain left brain theory, but otherwise, your second attempt to understand my statement is correct, intuition, or perception - which is in a flash understanding uses the whole brain, and works in most animals.
humans and other animals can be nasty without the additional sophistication of religion to tell us what to be nasty about. and
humans and other animals can be moral without the additional sophistication of religion to tell us what to be moral about.
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Moses_Davidson
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Re: Neo-Abrahamic Religion now the fastest growing faith in US [Re: Moses_Davidson]
#28421473 - 08/05/23 07:09 AM (5 months, 21 days ago) |
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For one individual to impose a moral judgement upon another, that is, the supposed existence of morality without the disclosure of the designated individual(s) who benefit from that "morality" is nothing more than the imposition of relgion 2.0.
All morality is only as righteous as it benefits someone... be it a god, dictator, government, planet or gene pool.
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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Moses_Davidson
Non-Prophet



Registered: 05/21/20
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Re: Neo-Abrahamic Religion now the fastest growing faith in US [Re: Moses_Davidson]
#28421475 - 08/05/23 07:12 AM (5 months, 21 days ago) |
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Religion 2.0... significa, worthless.
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: Neo-Abrahamic Religion now the fastest growing faith in US [Re: Moses_Davidson]
#28421913 - 08/05/23 02:11 PM (5 months, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Moses_Davidson said: For one individual to impose a moral judgement upon another, that is, the supposed existence of morality without the disclosure of the designated individual(s) who benefit from that "morality" is nothing more than the imposition of relgion 2.0.
All morality is only as righteous as it benefits someone... be it a god, dictator, government, planet or gene pool.
And yet we still decide to do things for the benefit and enjoyment of others too.
I think it's important to realise the potential of our actions to affect and effect others.
To consider how what we do impacts those around us. But also to think of ourselves and how we may benefit from our actions.
Just trying to be considerate is a good start imo.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Moses_Davidson
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Re: Neo-Abrahamic Religion now the fastest growing faith in US [Re: sudly]
#28424473 - 08/07/23 03:45 PM (5 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: And yet we still decide to do things for the benefit and enjoyment of others too.
I think it's important to realise the potential of our actions to affect and effect others.
To consider how what we do impacts those around us. But also to think of ourselves and how we may benefit from our actions.
Just trying to be considerate is a good start imo.
Now that is a thought worth meditating upon.
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
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Posts: 37,530
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Re: Neo-Abrahamic Religion now the fastest growing faith in US [Re: Moses_Davidson]
#28424650 - 08/07/23 05:51 PM (5 months, 18 days ago) |
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I can't meditate on a complex thought, it falls out of focus and into the background, it doesn't seem to flatten into a single plane like a view. I guess I'm too visual oriented.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Neo-Abrahamic Religion now the fastest growing faith in US [Re: Moses_Davidson]
#28424936 - 08/07/23 08:45 PM (5 months, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Moses_Davidson said:
Quote:
sudly said: And yet we still decide to do things for the benefit and enjoyment of others too.
I think it's important to realise the potential of our actions to affect and effect others.
To consider how what we do impacts those around us. But also to think of ourselves and how we may benefit from our actions.
Just trying to be considerate is a good start imo.
Now that is a thought worth meditating upon.
That to me is the bare minimum.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Moses_Davidson
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Re: Neo-Abrahamic Religion now the fastest growing faith in US [Re: redgreenvines]
#28424969 - 08/07/23 09:09 PM (5 months, 18 days ago) |
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I practice two different types. Eastern Meditation which is more about simply being aware,... and Middle-Eastern, which is more of a rumination/percolation upon a given topic. I find the rumination/percolation to be a great way to absorb difficult but important truths. A chance to process and absorb. I like to do it by a fire, or in a hammock, et cetera. Sometimes I like to ask questions about my meditation topic:
What is the historical context of this? What is the immediate context surrounding it? What is the grammatical context within this? How can I get some utility or pleasure from this? Is there something about this message I find difficult? Why? What is the speaker/author's intent of this message? What are the central points that I can learn from this? Is there a deeper or hidden meaning within this?
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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Asante
Mage


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Re: Neo-Abrahamic Religion now the fastest growing faith in US [Re: Moses_Davidson]
#28434740 - 08/15/23 09:01 AM (5 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
Moses_Davidson said: Neo-Abrahamic faith is a libertarian religion that rejects the polity and institutions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, but retains all of the same ideologies of being a "good" person, but without all of the inconvenience.
Our Credo of enlightenment: 1. Creation Myth. Science is everything that is testable in repeatable experiments, but our untestable conjectures that can never be disproven (like all religious ideology) we shall label these (our own dogmas) as "science". Thus, our creation "science" (never to be called a creation myth) is that of the multiverse. Because there are a nearly infinite number of other universes, it is not surprising that ours can exist among so many, and thus there is nothing special about ours.
2. Position on Science. We believe in science except where it has not yet been accepted by a voting majority in most universities (of the governmental voting board of the university which establishes control of what shall be taught), and likewise whatever has been accepted among a voting majority in most universities we will accept as true regardless of current scientific research. This democratic view we insist upon labeling as more "science."
3. Divinity. Since there is nothing divine, all of us are divine-- in nature, being God. This brings comfort.
4. Morality.
A. Personal responsibility is absolved. If you offend someone, you are now responsible for their actions. (*See triggering) B. The strong must care for the weak, except when the weak are far enough away in another country and we just don't talk about them. By weak we pretty much just mean ourselves, but we're not really going to say that. C. Free speech should not be allowed if it offends us or anyone in our group, except for child molesters because they're perverts until voted into acceptance by the governmental voting boards of our universities which establish control of what shall be taught. D. We are sensitive and tolerant of all, except people who disagree with us, rednecks, the uneducated/unenlightened, and Nazis, because we our selves would never be capable of ignorance or atrocities. E. The English language as a whole is racist and bigoted, and must be changed. Gender sensitivity and Ebonics must be included to be sensitive to all groups and cultures (except the English spoken in the Southern US, Northern UK, Nigeria, Jamaica, India, and various immigrant groups who just sound dumb when they speak improper English). F. The 10 Suggestions I. Thou shalt have no God. II. Thou shalt take two days off per week, plus a minimum of 2 weeks vacay and paid holidays, or thou art being exploited. III. Honor thy Mother Earth. IV. Thou shalt not kill. V. Thou shalt try not to lie too much, unless it is for good reason. VI. Thou may desire and vote to have and to hold any of your neighbors objects, but thou shalt try not to get caught with thy neighbors wife. VII. Thou shalt not count these 10 Holy Commandments.
5. Sin & Redemption. There is no redemption for the offenders. Anyone who disagrees with us shall be labeled, shamed and ridiculed in an enlightened way.
Your help is needed!
WE NEED: a. A name b. A system of organizational polity and governance c. A system of collecting cash from the world d. We misplaced a couple of the commandments. Please make suggestions.
so you're saying..
Neo Abrahamic Religion.. God not invited Abraham not invited fuk rednecks & nazis
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Neo-Abrahamic Religion now the fastest growing faith in US [Re: Asante]
#28434766 - 08/15/23 09:36 AM (5 months, 11 days ago) |
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Maybe it's a formative club in which the members pursue variations upon the themes by which to define the club to which these members have not yet been accepted.
All tentatively speaking.
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