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OfflineNorthernerM
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Questoning the role of chitin in magic mushroom nausea * 2
    #28387886 - 07/07/23 03:33 AM (6 months, 18 days ago)

So in recent times chitin has become the defacto thing to blame for mushroom nausea, it's oft repeated so I started looking at how common this is in mushrooms in general. It turns out that chitin is the fibre that makes mushrooms meaty and whole and not simply mush. There's varying amounts of chitin in all mushrooms, with portabellos being as high as %8 dried mass in one study I read.

"The chitin content of 15 species of field grown edible mushrooms was in the range of 1.87–6.93% of total dry mass.." is taken from another study.

But people aren't just keeling over and puking their guts up from chitin when they eat shrooms. It just doesn't work like that.

Even if cubensis was 10% chitin, 3g of dried mushroom would mean one would consume 300mg of chitin. Really this is next to nothing, like 1/4 of a teaspoon, and this seems even odder especially considering people chow down 200g side plates of garlic shrooms and love it.

I don't know what this means, what other factors are at play, but it's definitely given me a moment to pause when people blame chitin for nausea (which I have also done). It seems that maybe that isn't a completely accurate explanation. That maybe there's more to the story, or maybe even that it isn't even the culprit we think it is.


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Questoning the role of chitin in magic mushroom nausea [Re: Northerner]
    #28388053 - 07/07/23 06:58 AM (6 months, 18 days ago)

Aren't other mushrooms usually cooked/sauteed though? Or maybe it's that the Psilocybin mushies are dried? what about fresh mushies compared to dried mushies?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Questoning the role of chitin in magic mushroom nausea [Re: Sabnock] * 3
    #28388107 - 07/07/23 08:07 AM (6 months, 18 days ago)

It's the serotonin receptors in the gut that go crazy with psilocin and psilocybin etc.
chewed well, we absorb much mush in mouth, but always some gets to the small intestines  which go a bit crazy.
I guess slowly sipping strongly brewed tea is the least gut irritating.


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Offlineepilectric
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Re: Questoning the role of chitin in magic mushroom nausea [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28388147 - 07/07/23 08:39 AM (6 months, 18 days ago)

fresh mushrooms cause less nausea for me and can taste okay. i've had nausea with tea and 4-aco-dmt as well.. haven't tried eating wasps yet :syringe:


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Offlinebarisk22
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Re: Questoning the role of chitin in magic mushroom nausea [Re: epilectric] * 1
    #28388327 - 07/07/23 11:53 AM (6 months, 18 days ago)

I also think it is not chitin that cause nause, chitin make just abdominal distension, that also occurs when eating other mushrooms raw. Nause comes from 5 ht receptors in the gut, and I have no issue if I fast for at least 4 hours.


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Questoning the role of chitin in magic mushroom nausea [Re: epilectric] * 3
    #28388334 - 07/07/23 12:02 PM (6 months, 18 days ago)

I'm in agreeance that gut receptors cause nausea when overstimulated, people get nauseous with tea. There's even a lot of people that get nauseous from plain ol' LSD.

But why is everyone blaming chitin? A quick search with the engine will show this being used all the time as the reason mushroom bodies are nauseating. It this is making up less than 10% if the dried fruit there's more than 90% other stuff.

It just occurred to me that there might be common agreeance on misinformation here. Who says chitin is nauseating? Where does this info come from?

Seems like we might be propagating a myth.


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Questoning the role of chitin in magic mushroom nausea [Re: barisk22]
    #28388343 - 07/07/23 12:12 PM (6 months, 18 days ago)

As far as i know, it's the Serotonin 3 receptor that's reportedly cause of Serotonergic nausea/vomiting, although as far as i know, neither Psilocybin/Psilocin or DMT for that matter, bind to/agonize the Serotonin 3 receptor. So it may not be the Serotonin 3 receptor, although Serotonin is heavily involved in the gut and in peristalsis and digestion and such, but again usually that's tied to the Serotonin 3 receptor, as well as the Serotonin 4 receptor. Serotonin 2A or 1A or 2C may cause some stomach stuff but not as far as i know. Edit - Serotonin 3 also doesn't seem to be the case with Harmalas from what i've seen.

I have taken 4-ACO-DMT and compared to mushrooms or especially DMT, 4-ACO-DMT doesn't seem to cause me nausea or gut funkiness/discomfort, but i can still purge from it, especially in the form of Psilohuasca, which for me it's a big difference because DMT (i'm thinking because of it's Adrenergic actions) with Harmalas definitely cause me nausea/gut discomfort, but 4-ACO-DMT with Harmalas, my stomach/gut is fine, but sometimes i've just projectile vomited but it was quick and painless.

Also if the nausea/vomiting was/is from Serotonin 3, then a Serotonin 3 antagonist would remove it completely, and some claim Ginger or Zofran for example helps them, but it's never helped me. Limonene was the only thing to ever remove nausea/vomiting for me and i think it's because it gets digestion/peristalsis going.


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Edited by Sabnock (07/07/23 01:43 PM)


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Offlinebarisk22
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Re: Questoning the role of chitin in magic mushroom nausea [Re: Sabnock]
    #28388419 - 07/07/23 01:15 PM (6 months, 18 days ago)

5 Ht3 seems to be more central but also a degree to gut cause of nause and purgative effect that occurs with peganum harmala alkoloids. Imo same receptors may also responsible of some additive psychotropic effects of huasca compontent to comparing to only maois.

Other serotonin receptors probably 5 ht1 and 5ht2, 5 ht3, 5 ht4 of gut makes diarrae and nause effects also happens to me if I use a ssri like sertraline.


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Offlinebarisk22
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Re: Questoning the role of chitin in magic mushroom nausea [Re: Sabnock]
    #28388466 - 07/07/23 02:13 PM (6 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Sabnock said:
Also if the nausea/vomiting was/is from Serotonin 3, then a Serotonin 3 antagonist would remove it completely, and some claim Ginger or Zofran for example helps them, but it's never helped me. Limonene was the only thing to ever remove nausea/vomiting for me and i think it's because it gets digestion/peristalsis going.




Do you try limonene with psilohuasca ? What dosage (gr or ml) will you recommend for example 4 Gr peganum harmala to combat gastrointestinal effects and purging ?

Thanks


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InvisibleMuffin_Man
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Re: Questoning the role of chitin in magic mushroom nausea [Re: barisk22]
    #28388499 - 07/07/23 03:10 PM (6 months, 18 days ago)

I do know someone with a specific allergy or intolerance to Chitin in mushrooms and he says it's terrible not to be able to enjoy them!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Questoning the role of chitin in magic mushroom nausea [Re: Muffin_Man]
    #28388559 - 07/07/23 04:16 PM (6 months, 18 days ago)

that is terrible - would not want to be really high + on epipen stimulant at the same time.


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Questoning the role of chitin in magic mushroom nausea [Re: barisk22]
    #28388631 - 07/07/23 05:20 PM (6 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

barisk22 said:
Quote:

Sabnock said:
Also if the nausea/vomiting was/is from Serotonin 3, then a Serotonin 3 antagonist would remove it completely, and some claim Ginger or Zofran for example helps them, but it's never helped me. Limonene was the only thing to ever remove nausea/vomiting for me and i think it's because it gets digestion/peristalsis going.




Do you try limonene with psilohuasca ? What dosage (gr or ml) will you recommend for example 4 Gr peganum harmala to combat gastrointestinal effects and purging ?

Thanks




I usually recommend and have had success with 10 drops of pure Limonene oil in a capsule taken with the Rue/Harmalas. The only thing i'd say about Limonene is that for some of it's benefits, it seems to become more effective over a couple weeks of regular consumption, but for the anti-emetic properties i'm pretty sure that's there from the get go, but for something like heartburn relief or it's anti-depressant and anti-anxiety effects, once a day for a couple weeks seems to do best, it's like the only thing that's actually helped my heartburn, i don't even need heartburn meds or anything like that now and i don't even take Limonene anymore so whatever it did it seemed to help a lot, which it's said to increase gut mucus production and help to heal the gut lining and also has some anti-microbial properties which may also help, and it seems to get digestion going forwards and while the first few days may give a bit of diarrhea, i find that with regular consumption Limonene actually improves bowel movements and poop quality.

But yeah for it's anti-emetic properties, 10 drops in a capsule taken with the Harmalas or with the Psychedelic, and you should be good to go. Might be able to go as low as 6 to 8 drops of Limonene, but i found 10 drops to be most effective. Limonene is the main active compound in Lemon essential oil and some other essential oils, which Lemon essential oil has been touted online for years as a Psychedelic-nausea remedy, which people thought was Beta-Pinene from what i've read but ime it's actually Limonene, and pure Limonene oil i do think is better than the Lemon essential oil because the Lemon essential oil also has other things in it as well, and terpenes can definitely flavor/alter the effects of things to various degrees, but besides that i found pure Limonene to work better overall than the Lemon essential oil.


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InvisibleMuffin_Man
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Re: Questoning the role of chitin in magic mushroom nausea [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28388659 - 07/07/23 05:53 PM (6 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
that is terrible - would not want to be really high + on epipen stimulant at the same time.





oh my goodness what a nightmare scenario, yeah... I am prettty lucky I don't have any problem with the Chiten!


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Offlinebarisk22
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Re: Questoning the role of chitin in magic mushroom nausea [Re: Sabnock]
    #28390411 - 07/09/23 02:36 PM (6 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Sabnock said:
I usually recommend and have had success with 10 drops of pure Limonene oil in a capsule taken with the Rue/Harmalas. The only thing i'd say about Limonene is that for some of it's benefits, it seems to become more effective over a couple weeks of regular consumption, but for the anti-emetic properties i'm pretty sure that's there from the get go, but for something like heartburn relief or it's anti-depressant and anti-anxiety effects, once a day for a couple weeks seems to do best,
But yeah for it's anti-emetic properties, 10 drops in a capsule taken with the Harmalas or with the Psychedelic, and you should be good to go. Might be able to go as low as 6 to 8 drops of Limonene, but i found 10 drops to be most effective.




Great information will try for sure :mushroom2:


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Questoning the role of chitin in magic mushroom nausea [Re: barisk22]
    #28390897 - 07/09/23 10:22 PM (6 months, 16 days ago)

So apart from the one guys friend who is allergic to chitin, thus all mushrooms, there still doesn't seem to be any evidence that chitin actually causes nausea.


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OfflineParamycologist
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Re: Questoning the role of chitin in magic mushroom nausea [Re: Northerner] * 1
    #28392271 - 07/11/23 09:24 AM (6 months, 14 days ago)

I don't get nausea, but Beano helps me with the gas.


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OfflineSvetaketu
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Re: Questoning the role of chitin in magic mushroom nausea [Re: Northerner]
    #28392391 - 07/11/23 12:08 PM (6 months, 14 days ago)

So, chitin can definitely cause stomach upset, but  IME only in very large quantities.

I wanted to test the chitin thing because I love mushrooms, and I was skeptical that the basic building block of their cell walls could make me sick. I was working at this restaurant and they didn't want like 3 whole boxes of shiitakes because they were too small (wrong order or something).

My guy was gonna trash them :eek: so I took it all home and made shiitake soup.

I wanted to go big or go home :lol: so I put as much as I could fit, probably 2 1/2 boxes into the soup and then ate 1/3 of it.

That was the one time I experienced chitin nausea. MUCH different than on cubes. Gassy stomach pains that lasted for hours, would not recommend.


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Offlinebarisk22
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Re: Questoning the role of chitin in magic mushroom nausea [Re: Svetaketu]
    #28392451 - 07/11/23 01:20 PM (6 months, 14 days ago)

I think there was something wrong with your shiitakes because nearly all edible mushrooms contain chitin and chitin does not breakdown with cooking even canning until 400 c (1)

1. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0308814606000938


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OfflineSvetaketu
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Re: Questoning the role of chitin in magic mushroom nausea [Re: barisk22]
    #28392460 - 07/11/23 01:30 PM (6 months, 14 days ago)

I don't get it. I ate too many shiitakes and the chitin made me sick.

Some others ate less of the soup and were fine, so not like they were moldy or something.

I'm just illustrating that there is an amount of chitin that will upset your stomach, though IME it was a pretty comical amount of mushrooms, like a few ounces to a single person.


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Offlinebarisk22
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Re: Questoning the role of chitin in magic mushroom nausea [Re: Svetaketu]
    #28392475 - 07/11/23 01:42 PM (6 months, 14 days ago)

"According to data of Manzi et al. (2001) the cooking of A. bisporus increased the chitin content for normal, fresh mushrooms, for the deep frozen and for the canned variants, too (control, 6.0%; cooked 7.0%; deep frozen; 3.4%, cooked 5.2%; canned: 6.1%, cooked 7.4%). Unfortunately, the variety of the examined mushroom was unknown, the fruit bodies were whole (and not fractionated). The chitin content of the wild-growing Boletus group ranged from 0.5 to 3.3 g/100 g edible weight, and the effect of cooking was not significant (Manzi, Marconi, Aguzzi, & Pizzoferrato, 2004). The main drawback of previous literature was the small number of analysed samples and of species or of varieties, and the absence of data on chitin contents of two morphological parts of fruit body (pileus and stipe)."

Do you have always nause when eating edible mushrooms ?


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