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OfflineLiquidSmoke
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Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action * 1
    #28380022 - 06/30/23 10:21 AM (6 months, 25 days ago)

Not sure if there's been a thread about it, but I've been looking  to find people to discuss it with.

Objectively viewing things, or atleast trying to, regardless of policy, it does seem like higher education representation by under-represented minorities has only gotten worse over the past... 30 or 40 years or so.

Atleast that seems to be the case with advanced degrees.



I just wish people on both sides of the matter were more honest about their self interests, guised as motives of altruism.


But yeah, the state of education in African American demographics continues to falter.


--------------------
"Shmokin' weed, Shmokin' wizz, doin' coke, drinkin' beers.  Drinkin' beers beers beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts.  Who smokes tha blunts?  We smoke the blunts" - Jay and Silent Bob strike Back


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: LiquidSmoke] * 2
    #28380028 - 06/30/23 10:29 AM (6 months, 25 days ago)

The blow back on Republican electoral politics is going to be massive. The Supreme Court is so out of touch and republicans are going to pay for it at the ballot box


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NotSheekle said
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Invisiblechopstick
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: koods] * 2
    #28380048 - 06/30/23 10:52 AM (6 months, 25 days ago)

Basing admissions on race is unconstitutional. The highest court in the land, all of whom are experts on the Constitution, have decided this.

I don't see a problem with this ruling at all.

Dems want to rule by feelings rather than worrying about what is Constitutional and what isn't.

Which is also why they are trying so hard to get rid of free speech and guns... both things they consider to be their mortal enemy.

Taking it a step further, freedom itself is something they want to do away with. To do that, the Constitution has to be torn to shreds.

If you're part of a political party that has decided the concept of 'freedom' is something society shouldn't have, then you may want to reconsider your priorities.


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InvisibleCapSlinger
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: chopstick]
    #28380058 - 06/30/23 11:07 AM (6 months, 25 days ago)

:bringiton:


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Offlinechristopera
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: CapSlinger]
    #28380149 - 06/30/23 12:21 PM (6 months, 25 days ago)

Chop is so free his house will get taken when he gets sick.

All of these long term policies that Republican judges are over turning will come back to bite all of us in the ass. The context of affirmative action is not what it gets portrayed to be by the retards on the right. Literally, schools where denying black applicants because they were black. It has nothing to do with filling spots that white people could be in, or merit, or anything of the stupid shit arguments the right loves to make. Schools were straight up racist in their selections. Just like a lot of the right wing tards today.


--------------------
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Offlinekoods
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: christopera]
    #28380241 - 06/30/23 02:00 PM (6 months, 25 days ago)

White people benefit from academic affirmative action. White enrollment at Harvard will go down because of this ruling


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlinegww
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: koods]
    #28380321 - 06/30/23 03:41 PM (6 months, 25 days ago)

What I want to know is who would want to go to Harvard if when you came out you thought it would be ok to be a traitor like ted cruz and josh holly?
Cheers
gww


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OfflineVP123
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: chopstick]
    #28380346 - 06/30/23 04:03 PM (6 months, 25 days ago)

Quote:

chopstick said:

Taking it a step further, freedom itself is something they want to do away with. To do that, the Constitution has to be torn to shreds.

If you're part of a political party that has decided the concept of 'freedom' is something society shouldn't have, then you may want to reconsider your priorities.




- Banning books

- Don't say gay

- Don't be gay (or trans, bi, etc)

- Impose a Christian theocracy

Feel free to add to the list


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: VP123]
    #28380444 - 06/30/23 05:22 PM (6 months, 25 days ago)

Literally taking away a right that existed for 50 years


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlinerxb
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: koods]
    #28380607 - 06/30/23 07:52 PM (6 months, 25 days ago)

the potential damage of a corrupt supreme court is so far reaching.

maybe we wont get fair elections

maybe the voting districts will be further skewed.

maybe wyomings voters will count even MORE than they already do for presidents.


--------------------
->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <-

. i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications)

[quote]Enlil said:
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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: koods]
    #28381059 - 07/01/23 06:44 AM (6 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
White people benefit from academic affirmative action. White enrollment at Harvard will go down because of this ruling




It's a big win for Asians and Jews.

It's ironic that white people fought against affirmative action thinking it would help them against unfair advantages given to blacks; maybe at Southeast Central Louisiana Mining and Military. The elite schools lost their mechanism to limit Asian overrepresentation, cause God knows they got the test scores. Not just Chinese Americans but hundreds of thousands of Chinese nationals too.

Ending affirmative action must have sounded like such a good conservative talking point. Unintended consequences can come back to bite you, but educated people knew for decades exactly what consequences would result from merit-based university admissions.

This is what happens when Clarence Thomas is the best legal mind on the right.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineSulfurshelfsean
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Brian Jones]
    #28381062 - 07/01/23 06:49 AM (6 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

koods said:
White people benefit from academic affirmative action. White enrollment at Harvard will go down because of this ruling




It's a big win for Asians and Jews.

It's ironic that white people fought against affirmative action thinking it would help them against unfair advantages given to blacks; maybe at Southeast Central Louisiana Mining and Military. The elite schools lost their mechanism to limit Asian overrepresentation, cause God knows they got the test scores. Not just Chinese Americans but hundreds of thousands of Chinese nationals too.

Ending affirmative action must have sounded like such a good conservative talking point. Unintended consequences can come back to bite you, but educated people knew for decades exactly what consequences would result from merit-based university admissions.

This is what happens when Clarence Thomas is the best legal mind on the right.



You beat me to it. White people are practically gonna be locked out of a lot of schools. Good job republotards.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sulfurshelfsean]
    #28381085 - 07/01/23 07:21 AM (6 months, 24 days ago)

The elite schools do have other methods. Some have made test scores optional. Harvard has been weighing in extracurricular activities such as athletics, even intramural. Whites do have more time for extracurricular activities, because Asians spend all their time studying.

Many years ago I got into an argument with somebody here because I cited a quote from the admissions director of Stanford. She said if they went completely with academic merit based criteria the whole student body would be Asian except for some Jews.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Brian Jones]
    #28381262 - 07/01/23 10:30 AM (6 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
The elite schools do have other methods. Some have made test scores optional. Harvard has been weighing in extracurricular activities such as athletics, even intramural. Whites do have more time for extracurricular activities, because Asians spend all their time studying.

Many years ago I got into an argument with somebody here because I cited a quote from the admissions director of Stanford. She said if they went completely with academic merit based criteria the whole student body would be Asian except for some Jews.




Harvard will be 90% Asian


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlinechristopera
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: koods]
    #28381358 - 07/01/23 12:17 PM (6 months, 24 days ago)

Women were the biggest beneficiaries of AA. Specifically white women.


--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

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Offlinerxb
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: koods]
    #28381435 - 07/01/23 02:01 PM (6 months, 24 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
The elite schools do have other methods. Some have made test scores optional. Harvard has been weighing in extracurricular activities such as athletics, even intramural. Whites do have more time for extracurricular activities, because Asians spend all their time studying.

Many years ago I got into an argument with somebody here because I cited a quote from the admissions director of Stanford. She said if they went completely with academic merit based criteria the whole student body would be Asian except for some Jews.




Harvard will be 90% Asian




95% born chinese... paid to be here by the chinese government to be sure they understand how our engineering works.


--------------------
->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <-

. i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications)

[quote]Enlil said:
I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]


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OfflineSugabearcrisp
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: LiquidSmoke] * 1
    #28382194 - 07/02/23 07:46 AM (6 months, 23 days ago)

I think affirmative action is the figuritave cart before the horse, in that it tries to make up for a failed education system by placing its finger on the scales. Fix the schools and fix the social and economic issues impacting marginalized communities and you don't need affirmative action.

You can't treat the symptom if you don't cure the cause.

Every person has a right to a quality k-12 education, the real question is why people are still fighting to preserve the failure that is union run public education. It is in fact one of the most racist systems in our country.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28382220 - 07/02/23 08:01 AM (6 months, 23 days ago)

A cart doesn’t have fingers. Did you mean the horses fingers? Horses don’t have fingers either.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineSugabearcrisp
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: koods]
    #28382228 - 07/02/23 08:04 AM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
A cart doesn’t have fingers. Did you mean the horses fingers? Horses don’t have fingers either.



It does when its a brony :bananahorsey:


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InvisibleLynnch
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28382440 - 07/02/23 11:07 AM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
... Fix the schools and fix the social and economic issues impacting marginalized communities and you don't need affirmative action.
...



That's fairly reasonable... but I have a feeling i'm going to be horrified by what you consider the fix to "the failure that is union run public education" is.

The teachers unions do not run the schools...


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OfflineSugabearcrisp
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Lynnch]
    #28382448 - 07/02/23 11:15 AM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Lynnch said:
Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
... Fix the schools and fix the social and economic issues impacting marginalized communities and you don't need affirmative action.
...



That's fairly reasonable... but I have a feeling i'm going to be horrified by what you consider the fix to "the failure that is union run public education" is.

The teachers unions do not run the schools...




Union comment is about the inability to remove poor performing tenured teachers, not anything else you may have infered. I also pointed to social and economic problems fwiw.

To be honest I don't know the solution because as appetizing as school choice may seem there are significant downsides to it especially for anyone with special needs.

I tend to think pay for performance and removal of tenure would be good starting points. If a CEO fails to produce profit they get fired but we have tons of school admins failing to produce educated students.

What would you suggest?


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28382454 - 07/02/23 11:18 AM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Quote:

koods said:
A cart doesn’t have fingers. Did you mean the horses fingers? Horses don’t have fingers either.



It does when its a brony :bananahorsey:




I don’t support bronyism


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineSugabearcrisp
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: koods]
    #28382459 - 07/02/23 11:20 AM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Quote:

koods said:
A cart doesn’t have fingers. Did you mean the horses fingers? Horses don’t have fingers either.



It does when its a brony :bananahorsey:




I don’t support bronyism



Bigot


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InvisibleLynnch
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: koods]
    #28382497 - 07/02/23 11:51 AM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Ok, I'm not so horrified.

It's such a big question.. I think schools ought to be recognized as the bedrock social institutions that we demand them to be- they aren't just places for education; they provide food, social services, medical and psychological services... so we have to fund them for those purposes.

How would we pay for performance? Based on grades? That would just incentivize teachers to give all A's.. By state-wide testing? The thing that takes away from actual instruction time? What if students are bad test-takers, is that actually a metric of what the teacher teaches? I dunno man. I'm not sure that bad teachers is actually the problem.

I've been out of k-12 for a long time, and don't have any kids in it, so I'm out of the loop.. But my mom worked in education her whole life, at every level. Her stories of teaching middle-schoolers were fucking awful. Trying desperately to teach, but being forced to spend most of her time dealing with behavioral issues with unruly students.


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OfflineSugabearcrisp
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Lynnch]
    #28382509 - 07/02/23 11:58 AM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Drop out rate, college acceptance and completion rate seem to be three metrics that don't require additional work on the schools and would identify schools pushing kids through :shrug:

As for unruly kids, I blame parents who rush in to protect little hayden from any consequences to the point the teachers are afraid to punish.


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Offlinerxb
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28382522 - 07/02/23 12:09 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

i would imagine if you made it such that i couldnt tell you the racial makeup of a public school by looking at the per child budget or even class size... then we might not need to use racial makeup as a deciding factor in admissions... however

until we are there...


--------------------
->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <-

. i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications)

[quote]Enlil said:
I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]


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OfflineSugabearcrisp
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: rxb]
    #28382576 - 07/02/23 12:45 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

rxb said:
i would imagine if you made it such that i couldnt tell you the racial makeup of a public school by looking at the per child budget or even class size... then we might not need to use racial makeup as a deciding factor in admissions... however

until we are there...




Income level of the district is more indicative of performance than race, plenty of shitty performing public schools in the predominantly white rural areas.


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Offlinerxb
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28382849 - 07/02/23 04:56 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Quote:

rxb said:
i would imagine if you made it such that i couldnt tell you the racial makeup of a public school by looking at the per child budget or even class size... then we might not need to use racial makeup as a deciding factor in admissions... however

until we are there...




Income level of the district is more indicative of performance than race, plenty of shitty performing public schools in the predominantly white rural areas.




not sure i follow what you think *I* was saying... but to be clear i was saying that white minority schools got less funding than white majority schools... and that school funding makes a large difference in performance.

now if you are saying that there are some underfunded white majority schools... you arent wrong, but its not as common.


--------------------
->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <-

. i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications)

[quote]Enlil said:
I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]


Edited by rxb (07/02/23 04:58 PM)


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OfflineSeriously_trippin
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: rxb] * 1
    #28382860 - 07/02/23 05:08 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

I believe in equality which means an equal chance for everyone. I just hope colleges don't use this as an excuse to discriminate. Discrimination is unacceptable. If anything I think there should be affirmative action for the poorest people black and white.


--------------------
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Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many :heart:


Edited by Seriously_trippin (07/02/23 05:10 PM)


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OfflineSugabearcrisp
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: rxb]
    #28382876 - 07/02/23 05:27 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

rxb said:
now if you are saying that there are some underfunded white majority schools... you arent wrong, but its not as common.




Depends on what you use as denominator, whether it is common or not. There might be more inner city people of color if you use that as a demominator but if we are talking school districts themselves there might be more of those rural white majority low income if that is used as the denominator.

Either way it is not as uncommon as you think. Poverty rate is around 11-12% and while minorities have rates twice that white non hispanic still sit around 9-10% because the denominator (population as a whole) is more white non hispanic.


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #28382877 - 07/02/23 05:31 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
I believe in equality which means an equal chance for everyone. I just hope colleges don't use this as an excuse to discriminate. Discrimination is unacceptable. If anything I think there should be affirmative action for the poorest people black and white.




equality is a weird trap.

if you believe in an equal start line like a foot race, most minorities dont get that.

if you believe in an equal opportunity to succeed you have to put different weights on starting lines and some people dont like that

if you believe in equality of outcomes, neither of the above two systems provide it.


you cant believe in all equality simultaniously and all three possibilities leave people behind. i believe that early education is the easiest way to produce long term outcomes...but the fact that many minority communities are starting from a position of low-at-home education levels is a further issue to overcome.

its a complex issue.


--------------------
->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <-

. i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications)

[quote]Enlil said:
I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #28382878 - 07/02/23 05:31 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
I believe in equality which means an equal chance for everyone. I just hope colleges don't use this as an excuse to discriminate. Discrimination is unacceptable. If anything I think there should be affirmative action for the poorest people black and white.



You ought to know that the case was brought by minority asians who were doing so well in high school and on entrance exams that ivy league schools were discriminating against them fwiw.


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28382881 - 07/02/23 05:34 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Quote:

rxb said:
now if you are saying that there are some underfunded white majority schools... you arent wrong, but its not as common.




Depends on what you use as denominator, whether it is common or not. There might be more inner city people of color if you use that as a demominator but if we are talking school districts themselves there might be more of those rural white majority low income if that is used as the denominator.

Either way it is not as uncommon as you think. Poverty rate is around 11-12% and while minorities have rates twice that white non hispanic still sit around 9-10% because the denominator (population as a whole) is more white non hispanic.




districts isnt as good as school as a comparitor. my partner grew up in a county with schools on one side of the county with some of the best scores in the nation, and schools on the other side of the county with some of the worst... and the income levels surrounding those schools and the per child budget all reflect the same ...

white minority schools get less funding. there are dozens of reasons for that... but it changes outcomes...in an unfair way


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Edited by rxb (07/02/23 05:35 PM)


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: rxb]
    #28382894 - 07/02/23 05:50 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Agreed, less funded schools have worse outcomes.


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28382979 - 07/02/23 07:31 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

That's not always true, though it is mostly true. My son goes to a fairly poor school district, but he was passed along into one of the schools in the district that is a top 5 STEM school in the state. Poor district, good education, arguably a fairly classist system though. The people that can afford to play the system end up in the better schools in that district.


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: christopera]
    #28382984 - 07/02/23 07:38 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

If I had to guess, the educational attainment of the parents is the best predictor of a successful school


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: koods]
    #28382997 - 07/02/23 08:05 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
If I had to guess, the educational attainment of the parents is the best predictor of a successful school




thats largely true, as i pointed out above. making it a very difficult to overcome situation. so because the grandparents were given a less than adequate education the child is now left behind. because the grandparents made less money and paid less taxes, and the parents made less money and paid less taxes and because they can offer less help to the child at home the child is left behind.

so overcoming this inequality is VERY complex. just throwing money in its direction wouldnt fix it in 7 generations.


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: rxb]
    #28383131 - 07/03/23 02:12 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

rxb said:
Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
I believe in equality which means an equal chance for everyone. I just hope colleges don't use this as an excuse to discriminate. Discrimination is unacceptable. If anything I think there should be affirmative action for the poorest people black and white.




equality is a weird trap.

if you believe in an equal start line like a foot race, most minorities dont get that.

if you believe in an equal opportunity to succeed you have to put different weights on starting lines and some people dont like that

if you believe in equality of outcomes, neither of the above two systems provide it.


you cant believe in all equality simultaniously and all three possibilities leave people behind. i believe that early education is the easiest way to produce long term outcomes...but the fact that many minority communities are starting from a position of low-at-home education levels is a further issue to overcome.

its a complex issue.




It is a complex issue indeed. When you say most minorities don't get an equal starting line in the race I'd agree but when it comes specifically with colleges the disadvantage I think they have is being poorer then most. Thus not having money for tution,books etc.

That's where I get into equality though because then I think it comes down to poverty. White or black if you're impoverished you have a very unfair starting line. So I think it's more about money and test scores rather then race in that regard.

Thats true that early education is crucial and the biggest reason why more black people from impoverished areas don't go to college. However I've seen from experience that, that's also the case for "white" areas that are impoverished too. Everyone I knew from the trailer parks I used to go to to visit friends at never got to college and got a job,went to prison or died. So that's where my feeling of wanting everyone that's struggling to have equal opportunities comes from.


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28383132 - 07/03/23 02:17 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
I believe in equality which means an equal chance for everyone. I just hope colleges don't use this as an excuse to discriminate. Discrimination is unacceptable. If anything I think there should be affirmative action for the poorest people black and white.



You ought to know that the case was brought by minority asians who were doing so well in high school and on entrance exams that ivy league schools were discriminating against them fwiw.



Yeah and as I said discrimination like that is unacceptable to me. If you work hard and do good in your schoolwork you should be rewarded no matter what color you are.

Also as I mentioned I hope this SCOTUS decision doesn't give a green light for say a deeply red southern state college to reject Asians or black people and use the excuse that they just weren't good enough when in fact they were and the college just says even SCOTUS says that we don't have to have diversity here.


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #28383193 - 07/03/23 05:57 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

I
Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
I believe in equality which means an equal chance for everyone. I just hope colleges don't use this as an excuse to discriminate. Discrimination is unacceptable. If anything I think there should be affirmative action for the poorest people black and white.



You ought to know that the case was brought by minority asians who were doing so well in high school and on entrance exams that ivy league schools were discriminating against them fwiw.



Yeah and as I said discrimination like that is unacceptable to me. If you work hard and do good in your schoolwork you should be rewarded no matter what color you are.

Also as I mentioned I hope this SCOTUS decision doesn't give a green light for say a deeply red southern state college to reject Asians or black people and use the excuse that they just weren't good enough when in fact they were and the college just says even SCOTUS says that we don't have to have diversity here.




Yeah I would hope that comparison of entrance exam scores would open the school to lawsuit if they selected white students with lower scores consistently.

End of the day though the college admission process is still subjective and the essay, life story and legacy components will still allow enough grey space for the well connected. Just look at Joe Biden's grand daughter, not the one hunter had with a stripper that Joe has denied family membership, but the one who went to Upenn after Joe called the dean who is now an ambassador :lol:


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28383233 - 07/03/23 06:49 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

but the one who went to Upenn after Joe called the dean who is now an ambassador



Biden would be a piece of crap if he did not try and help if he could the people he could.  This being the way of the world with everyone having the impetus to help those close to them is why it was recognized that the door would stay closed if not for some kind of law to open it.  It would be like asking everyone to buy american but leaving all the stores selling only Chinese stuff.  It is a bit of an unrealistic ask and will not be fixed by an individual doing more then everyone else to look for the american product.  People are people and some things can not be fixed by good intentions of individuals but need consensus.
Cheers
gww


Edited by gww (07/03/23 06:51 AM)


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: gww]
    #28383245 - 07/03/23 07:05 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

i think biden probably IS a pile of crap.

i see very little evidence to the contrary. none the less, id take a pile of crap over a malignant tumor anyday. which is exactly what happened.

politics has reached a point where there is very little to do but wait it out until the poverty is so undeniable that people move for real change and a real coup happens.

the military industrial complex is getting the dollars and the poor have less and less purchasing power and mobility with each passing day. its beyond the scope of a single politician to change this in any meaningful way.

when the rich are stacking wealth eventually their towers fall, the system currently in place tries to keep the towers upright as long as possible. give the poor the illusion of liberty and they will work three or four jobs to keep their kids in diapers.


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: rxb]
    #28383260 - 07/03/23 07:24 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Milenia of humankind has proven you wrong.

Humans do their best work trying to kill eachother. Every technological advancememt has its roots in the MIC. The "space race" for example was really about developing and demonstrating ICBM capabilities.

Capitalism and the MIC harness humanaties natural tendencies and that is why these systems work.


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28383280 - 07/03/23 07:43 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Milenia of humankind has proven you wrong.

Humans do their best work trying to kill eachother. Every technological advancememt has its roots in the MIC. The "space race" for example was really about developing and demonstrating ICBM capabilities.

Capitalism and the MIC harness humanaties natural tendencies and that is why these systems work.




the space race was all pre military industrial complex. the work was done mostly by college programs feeding into military programs.

not private corporations overcharging tax payers for failures.


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[quote]Enlil said:
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: rxb] * 1
    #28383301 - 07/03/23 08:06 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

rxb said:
Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Milenia of humankind has proven you wrong.

Humans do their best work trying to kill eachother. Every technological advancememt has its roots in the MIC. The "space race" for example was really about developing and demonstrating ICBM capabilities.

Capitalism and the MIC harness humanaties natural tendencies and that is why these systems work.




the space race was all pre military industrial complex. the work was done mostly by college programs feeding into military programs.

not private corporations overcharging tax payers for failures.




You are wrong and even a cursory glance at history would tell you that... look up Wernher von Braun who went from nazi u2s to the army to run nasa for instance

https://www.sciencefocus.com/space/the-space-race-how-cold-war-tensions-put-a-rocket-under-the-quest-for-the-moon/


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28383338 - 07/03/23 08:48 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Quote:

rxb said:
Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Milenia of humankind has proven you wrong.

Humans do their best work trying to kill eachother. Every technological advancememt has its roots in the MIC. The "space race" for example was really about developing and demonstrating ICBM capabilities.

Capitalism and the MIC harness humanaties natural tendencies and that is why these systems work.




the space race was all pre military industrial complex. the work was done mostly by college programs feeding into military programs.

not private corporations overcharging tax payers for failures.




You are wrong and even a cursory glance at history would tell you that... look up Wernher von Braun who went from nazi u2s to the army to run nasa for instance

https://www.sciencefocus.com/space/the-space-race-how-cold-war-tensions-put-a-rocket-under-the-quest-for-the-moon/




im not at all wrong, project paperclip, brought over abunch of ex germans... set them up in positions.... companies were formed  and developed around that...the space race didnt happen because of private companies private companies happened because of the space race... and those funds got pulled OUT of military programs and such.. they stopped paying the universities so much....more money than ever went to those big companies... and it got out of hand... eisenhower pointed it out because it started shifting to where the companies were running the show instead of the government...etc etc

your history knowledge is severely lacking


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Edited by rxb (07/03/23 08:50 AM)


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: rxb] * 1
    #28383418 - 07/03/23 09:54 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

your history knowledge is severely lacking




No it isn't. In fact I took a college course on the history of the space race as part of my physics degree.

Anyways it was just an example, you can continue to hold your naive belief that the MIC is something other than the natural outcome of human nature to compete and wish for something else to replace it.


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: rxb] * 1
    #28383443 - 07/03/23 10:14 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

rxb said:

im not at all wrong, project paperclip, brought over abunch of ex germans... set them up in positions.... companies were formed  and developed around that...the space race didnt happen because of private companies private companies happened because of the space race... and those funds got pulled OUT of military programs and such.. they stopped paying the universities so much....more money than ever went to those big companies... and it got out of hand... eisenhower pointed it out because it started shifting to where the companies were running the show instead of the government...etc etc

your history knowledge is severely lacking




Wikipedia also points correctly to the MIC beginning in WWII, before the space race.

Quote:

With the onset of World War II President Franklin D. Roosevelt established the War Production Board to coordinate civilian industries and shift them into wartime production. Throughout World War II arms production in the United States went from around one percent of the annual GDP to 40 percent of the GDP.[33] Various American companies, such as Boeing and General Motors, maintained and expanded their defense divisions.[33] These companies have gone on to develop various technologies that have improved civilian life as well, such as night-vision goggles and GPS.[33]




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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28383450 - 07/03/23 10:22 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

the origins of the space race can be traced back to jet propulsion that started somewhat BEFORE world war II...in 1930...

again, your knowledge of history is lacking

and i didnt even have to take a history of the space race class for my physics program...funny that.


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: rxb]
    #28383478 - 07/03/23 10:44 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

rxb said:
the origins of the space race can be traced back to jet propulsion that started somewhat BEFORE world war II...in 1930...

again, your knowledge of history is lacking

and i didnt even have to take a history of the space race class for my physics program...funny that.



And it shows that you didn't take the class...

Quote:

The Space Race was a 20th-century competition between two Cold War rivals, the United States and the Soviet Union, to achieve superior spaceflight capability. It had its origins in the ballistic missile-based nuclear arms race between the two nations following World War II.




that's wikipedia, not me and that is the definition of the space race accepted by everyone except apparently you.

if you took the course you would also have learned that rocketry started well before the 1930s, with their military use dating back to the 10th century china.

Seriously I get you don't like me but the contortions you are going through instead of admitting you might be wrong are comically sad.


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28383528 - 07/03/23 11:21 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

so your position is that ... we get to space somehow without rockets... which start in 1930.

you are saying...if i understand you that somehow independantly of rocketry ...

or that somehow you think rocketry didnt start the boom of innovation that lead to it...

or what?

like in a way the space race started with the first flight... but at that point its not really an achievable thing... but as soon as we start playing with rockets we say ´now we can get there'and that starts in 1930.

hitler was working on it... russia was working on it... the programs started long before they were a public sight.

these programs started in universities with ideas... were funded by government... private contractors did some heavy lifting which enriched those companies.... eventually we start cutting out mit and standford and just do development with grummand, boeing and other private companies ...

the university system incentivises innovation the private corps just fullfill goals... i would say darpa is more productive than boeing is by far... the goal of darpa is innovation the goal of boeing is production and profit.

im not even saying that the role of private corps needs to be completely ripped out... but we could do better at more things if we used the brains of the universities in a better capacity... the way we did before.

you can quote wikipedia all day, but the logic is sound, we start our path to space with the rocket... and that gets a patent in 1930 which means it was in development before that...

without project paperclip .. and the german knowledge we probably still would have taken alot longer to get into space...the german knowledge was ALSO government funded research and education. this fuels innovation because the more educated people we have... the more unique thoughts and creativity we create, the faster we develop new ideas.

you can deny that all you want, but its simple logic.


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: rxb]
    #28383559 - 07/03/23 11:40 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Well you are wrong and I am quoting wikipedia as an independent source to show that.
Again the space race is a specific term widely agreed to and you are attempting to redefine that.

Second the schools are part of the MIC.

I don't understand your point and you have failed at every turn to disprove mine.


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28383572 - 07/03/23 11:50 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Well you are wrong and I am quoting wikipedia as an independent source to show that.
Again the space race is a specific term widely agreed to and you are attempting to redefine that.

Second the schools are part of the MIC.

I don't understand your point and you have failed at every turn to disprove mine.




just because you say that doesnt make it so.

you havent really made a point. the only thing you really said was the its the companies that make the progress and thats not true. its ideas.

and ideas are the wheelhouse of education.

there was a point when education was free...and we had more innovation.

none of that is wrong... and your arguement is ¨nuh uh no it isnt"

which... isnt worth the time it takes to reply most of the time. you say you studied physics... shrug... you say you studied history...shrug... doesnt seem like you studied logic..

we are fucking education in this country and making it less accessible not more. there was a time when government progress funded education.. we should return to that ...


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[quote]Enlil said:
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: rxb]
    #28383654 - 07/03/23 12:51 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

This subject is beyond my depth past the fact that it was not all about rockets.  Can't forget some of it started with balloons that may have laid the foundation for nasa.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/spacemen-balloon-innovation/
Back in the thirties, these air force pilots might have been famous.
Cheers
gww


Edited by gww (07/03/23 12:53 PM)


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: gww]
    #28383721 - 07/03/23 01:28 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Yeah idfk I think rxb is arguing for a utopian future where everything is developed in the colleges and universities with unlimited funding, I think :shrug:

I have tried to point out that human nature drives innovation primarily for purpose of killing or defending against other humans willing to kill you, but it obviously isn't getting through


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28383782 - 07/03/23 02:17 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Yeah idfk I think rxb is arguing for a utopian future where everything is developed in the colleges and universities with unlimited funding, I think :shrug:

I have tried to point out that human nature drives innovation primarily for purpose of killing or defending against other humans willing to kill you, but it obviously isn't getting through




not at all anything like anything i said.

ok, in 1930 do you know what it cost to go to MIT?

the cost of BOOKS. and we had better growth.

do you know what it costs now? i paid 160k for my education.

which system is available to more people? which era had the most growth and developent?


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[quote]Enlil said:
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Edited by rxb (07/03/23 02:18 PM)


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: rxb]
    #28383802 - 07/03/23 02:32 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

rxb said:
not at all anything like anything i said.





Yeah well whatever you said didn't come through and now it sounds to me like you are idiolizing the 1930s, hopefully you didn't pay 160k for a communications degree.


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Offlinerxb
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28383810 - 07/03/23 02:38 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Quote:

rxb said:
not at all anything like anything i said.





Yeah well whatever you said didn't come through and now it sounds to me like you are idiolizing the 1930s, hopefully you didn't pay 160k for a communications degree.




no, culinary arts, psychology, comp sci, robotics engineering and physics.

but i was tripple majored at one point and deans list the whole time so, it would have been a WHOLE lot more expensive if i hadnt stacked em up.

i am horrible at written communication from dyslexia much better spoken..however there is something to be said from a genuine attempt to understand rather than just saying lalallalala capitalism is right..

because what im proposing is a return to a more prosperous form of capitalism and not some socialist bullshit. and what we have today is socialism for the already wealthy cashing in blank checks for failed airplanes.

if instead we wrote those checks for research and development at stanford and mit... we would return to kids only paying for books and acedemia profiting from taxes and building up society...

the current system isnt great. it used to be better.... not ALL of the 1930s... just how schools were funded.


--------------------
->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <-

. i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications)

[quote]Enlil said:
I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]


Edited by rxb (07/03/23 02:40 PM)


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Offlinegww
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: rxb]
    #28383877 - 07/03/23 03:48 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

I don't think the current trend of outside contracting every public service is a good thing.  Those buzz words that immediately stop a the republicans from thinking strait like venezuela, climate change, welfare, George Soros, etc are similar to how the word privatize affects me when it comes up in discussions.
Cheers
gww


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OfflineSugabearcrisp
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: rxb]
    #28383973 - 07/03/23 05:13 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

rxb said:
Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Quote:

rxb said:
not at all anything like anything i said.





Yeah well whatever you said didn't come through and now it sounds to me like you are idiolizing the 1930s, hopefully you didn't pay 160k for a communications degree.




no, culinary arts, psychology, comp sci, robotics engineering and physics.

but i was tripple majored at one point and deans list the whole time so, it would have been a WHOLE lot more expensive if i hadnt stacked em up.

i am horrible at written communication from dyslexia much better spoken..however there is something to be said from a genuine attempt to understand rather than just saying lalallalala capitalism is right..

because what im proposing is a return to a more prosperous form of capitalism and not some socialist bullshit. and what we have today is socialism for the already wealthy cashing in blank checks for failed airplanes.

if instead we wrote those checks for research and development at stanford and mit... we would return to kids only paying for books and acedemia profiting from taxes and building up society...

the current system isnt great. it used to be better.... not ALL of the 1930s... just how schools were funded.




Sorry to hear you suffer from dyslexia, my mom also has it and I understand how hard that or other disabilities can make academia, congrats on your technical degree :thumbup:

fwiw I am sincerely trying to understand your point. I think I am following now and I would counter that you are romanticizing a time that is adequately removed from your own (90 years) into something it wasn't. Simply looking at the number of college educated people per capitia will tell you that while MIT might not have cost much there weren't as many people going to college as there are now. Further other schools like dartmouth were relatively expensive back then at $1700 per anum = $30k+ today and this was before federal subsidized loans.

I also think you mistake my point... I don't think capitalism and the MIC are right, but I do think they are most closely aligned to human nature and therefore work because they leverage human nature. :rollsafe:


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp] * 1
    #28384000 - 07/03/23 05:28 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

human nature be damned.

there is a way to get both by robbing a few rich persons of their spoils.

and i support that notion.

its what we should do. we should remove engineering contracts from non-educational systems. classifications as they are needed to graduate students and faculty... and support progress over industry.

if we are going to pick winners and losers (and lets be real someone is getting picked) at least pick the choice that will serve the greater good and advancement of all.


--------------------
->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <-

. i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications)

[quote]Enlil said:
I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]


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OfflineSugabearcrisp
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: rxb]
    #28384023 - 07/03/23 05:42 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Yes,
Quote:

rxb said:
human nature be damned.





:leocheers:


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28384422 - 07/04/23 04:52 AM (6 months, 21 days ago)

And the lawsuits are starting already

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/03/us/harvard-college-legacy-admissions-lawsuit/index.html

Basically minority groups have sued harvard over legacy admissions practices.

I think this is great, the legacy admission process is cronism and trades on power. Obviously I am also going to mention Maisey Biden who is a poster child for the issue.

Quote:

free beacon article said..


"I applied early decision to Penn today!!" Maisy Biden texted Hunter Biden on October 31.

Just two days later, Maisy asked her father for an update on her application. In the coming months, Hunter and Joe Biden would mount a full-court press on university administrators to get Maisy's application over the finish line. The Bidens took their case directly to the top: University of Pennsylvania president Amy Gutmann.

On December 13, 2018, the elder Biden texted Hunter that he was "going to try to see [University of Pennsylvania] Pres GUTMANN tomorrow." Two days later, Joe Biden told Hunter Biden that he "had a great talk with Guttman [sic]."

"Maisy still in the game for regular acceptance. But must do well in class this period. It's real," Joe Biden wrote on December 15. "We should talk about tutors etc starting tomorrow."






Maisey Biden went on to graduate upenn this year and Amy Gutman was appointed Ambassador to Germany.

Quote:

"There's a river of power that flows through this country," Biden said in 1988, according to a book by journalist Richard Ben Cramer. "Some people, a few, get to swim in the river all the time. … And that river flows from the Ivy League."




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OfflineIce9
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28384685 - 07/04/23 10:46 AM (6 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Yeah idfk I think rxb is arguing for a utopian future where everything is developed in the colleges and universities with unlimited funding, I think :shrug:

I have tried to point out that human nature drives innovation primarily for purpose of killing or defending against other humans willing to kill you, but it obviously isn't getting through



He has explicitly argued that in another thread, do not remember which :shrug:

@RXB The MIC was formed DURING WWII, with the enactment of War Powers Act of 1941 and creation of the War Production Board.  These two actions completely altered how the US outfitted the military, shifting and coordinating civilian industry to wartime efforts.  This was also insanely lucrative for these civilian industries, who where then loathe to abandon the consistent and lucrative government contracts, et voila, MIC.


--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw


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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Ice9]
    #28384856 - 07/04/23 01:27 PM (6 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Ice9 said:
Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Yeah idfk I think rxb is arguing for a utopian future where everything is developed in the colleges and universities with unlimited funding, I think :shrug:

I have tried to point out that human nature drives innovation primarily for purpose of killing or defending against other humans willing to kill you, but it obviously isn't getting through



He has explicitly argued that in another thread, do not remember which :shrug:

@RXB The MIC was formed DURING WWII, with the enactment of War Powers Act of 1941 and creation of the War Production Board.  These two actions completely altered how the US outfitted the military, shifting and coordinating civilian industry to wartime efforts.  This was also insanely lucrative for these civilian industries, who where then loathe to abandon the consistent and lucrative government contracts, et voila, MIC.




it was this thread...mostly atleast... and i made the point you just made that it was the utilization of private contractors that fed them, such that they grew and basically cut the universities out.

the universities can still get grants for some of the development but nothing like it used to be, because those funds now go to big private corps with sweetheart deals... if we returned those programs to the schools where they belong we would foster better growth and development while maintaining our current rates of production... some of the private corps could still be involved in the manufacturing end, but i would carve them out of the engineering completely and give that to grad students ... we did some dod work in robotics... built an autofiring robotic painball gun... and the dod funded parts of the projects. but nothing to the degree they used to.


--------------------
->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <-

. i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications)

[quote]Enlil said:
I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]


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