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OfflineSugabearcrisp
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Lynnch]
    #28382448 - 07/02/23 11:15 AM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Lynnch said:
Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
... Fix the schools and fix the social and economic issues impacting marginalized communities and you don't need affirmative action.
...



That's fairly reasonable... but I have a feeling i'm going to be horrified by what you consider the fix to "the failure that is union run public education" is.

The teachers unions do not run the schools...




Union comment is about the inability to remove poor performing tenured teachers, not anything else you may have infered. I also pointed to social and economic problems fwiw.

To be honest I don't know the solution because as appetizing as school choice may seem there are significant downsides to it especially for anyone with special needs.

I tend to think pay for performance and removal of tenure would be good starting points. If a CEO fails to produce profit they get fired but we have tons of school admins failing to produce educated students.

What would you suggest?


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28382454 - 07/02/23 11:18 AM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Quote:

koods said:
A cart doesn’t have fingers. Did you mean the horses fingers? Horses don’t have fingers either.



It does when its a brony :bananahorsey:




I don’t support bronyism


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OfflineSugabearcrisp
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: koods]
    #28382459 - 07/02/23 11:20 AM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Quote:

koods said:
A cart doesn’t have fingers. Did you mean the horses fingers? Horses don’t have fingers either.



It does when its a brony :bananahorsey:




I don’t support bronyism



Bigot


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InvisibleLynnch
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: koods]
    #28382497 - 07/02/23 11:51 AM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Ok, I'm not so horrified.

It's such a big question.. I think schools ought to be recognized as the bedrock social institutions that we demand them to be- they aren't just places for education; they provide food, social services, medical and psychological services... so we have to fund them for those purposes.

How would we pay for performance? Based on grades? That would just incentivize teachers to give all A's.. By state-wide testing? The thing that takes away from actual instruction time? What if students are bad test-takers, is that actually a metric of what the teacher teaches? I dunno man. I'm not sure that bad teachers is actually the problem.

I've been out of k-12 for a long time, and don't have any kids in it, so I'm out of the loop.. But my mom worked in education her whole life, at every level. Her stories of teaching middle-schoolers were fucking awful. Trying desperately to teach, but being forced to spend most of her time dealing with behavioral issues with unruly students.


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OfflineSugabearcrisp
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Lynnch]
    #28382509 - 07/02/23 11:58 AM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Drop out rate, college acceptance and completion rate seem to be three metrics that don't require additional work on the schools and would identify schools pushing kids through :shrug:

As for unruly kids, I blame parents who rush in to protect little hayden from any consequences to the point the teachers are afraid to punish.


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Offlinerxb
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28382522 - 07/02/23 12:09 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

i would imagine if you made it such that i couldnt tell you the racial makeup of a public school by looking at the per child budget or even class size... then we might not need to use racial makeup as a deciding factor in admissions... however

until we are there...


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[quote]Enlil said:
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OfflineSugabearcrisp
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: rxb]
    #28382576 - 07/02/23 12:45 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

rxb said:
i would imagine if you made it such that i couldnt tell you the racial makeup of a public school by looking at the per child budget or even class size... then we might not need to use racial makeup as a deciding factor in admissions... however

until we are there...




Income level of the district is more indicative of performance than race, plenty of shitty performing public schools in the predominantly white rural areas.


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Offlinerxb
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28382849 - 07/02/23 04:56 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Quote:

rxb said:
i would imagine if you made it such that i couldnt tell you the racial makeup of a public school by looking at the per child budget or even class size... then we might not need to use racial makeup as a deciding factor in admissions... however

until we are there...




Income level of the district is more indicative of performance than race, plenty of shitty performing public schools in the predominantly white rural areas.




not sure i follow what you think *I* was saying... but to be clear i was saying that white minority schools got less funding than white majority schools... and that school funding makes a large difference in performance.

now if you are saying that there are some underfunded white majority schools... you arent wrong, but its not as common.


--------------------
->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <-

. i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications)

[quote]Enlil said:
I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]


Edited by rxb (07/02/23 04:58 PM)


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OfflineSeriously_trippin
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: rxb] * 1
    #28382860 - 07/02/23 05:08 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

I believe in equality which means an equal chance for everyone. I just hope colleges don't use this as an excuse to discriminate. Discrimination is unacceptable. If anything I think there should be affirmative action for the poorest people black and white.


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Edited by Seriously_trippin (07/02/23 05:10 PM)


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OfflineSugabearcrisp
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: rxb]
    #28382876 - 07/02/23 05:27 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

rxb said:
now if you are saying that there are some underfunded white majority schools... you arent wrong, but its not as common.




Depends on what you use as denominator, whether it is common or not. There might be more inner city people of color if you use that as a demominator but if we are talking school districts themselves there might be more of those rural white majority low income if that is used as the denominator.

Either way it is not as uncommon as you think. Poverty rate is around 11-12% and while minorities have rates twice that white non hispanic still sit around 9-10% because the denominator (population as a whole) is more white non hispanic.


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Offlinerxb
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #28382877 - 07/02/23 05:31 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
I believe in equality which means an equal chance for everyone. I just hope colleges don't use this as an excuse to discriminate. Discrimination is unacceptable. If anything I think there should be affirmative action for the poorest people black and white.




equality is a weird trap.

if you believe in an equal start line like a foot race, most minorities dont get that.

if you believe in an equal opportunity to succeed you have to put different weights on starting lines and some people dont like that

if you believe in equality of outcomes, neither of the above two systems provide it.


you cant believe in all equality simultaniously and all three possibilities leave people behind. i believe that early education is the easiest way to produce long term outcomes...but the fact that many minority communities are starting from a position of low-at-home education levels is a further issue to overcome.

its a complex issue.


--------------------
->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <-

. i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications)

[quote]Enlil said:
I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]


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OfflineSugabearcrisp
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #28382878 - 07/02/23 05:31 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
I believe in equality which means an equal chance for everyone. I just hope colleges don't use this as an excuse to discriminate. Discrimination is unacceptable. If anything I think there should be affirmative action for the poorest people black and white.



You ought to know that the case was brought by minority asians who were doing so well in high school and on entrance exams that ivy league schools were discriminating against them fwiw.


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Offlinerxb
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28382881 - 07/02/23 05:34 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Quote:

rxb said:
now if you are saying that there are some underfunded white majority schools... you arent wrong, but its not as common.




Depends on what you use as denominator, whether it is common or not. There might be more inner city people of color if you use that as a demominator but if we are talking school districts themselves there might be more of those rural white majority low income if that is used as the denominator.

Either way it is not as uncommon as you think. Poverty rate is around 11-12% and while minorities have rates twice that white non hispanic still sit around 9-10% because the denominator (population as a whole) is more white non hispanic.




districts isnt as good as school as a comparitor. my partner grew up in a county with schools on one side of the county with some of the best scores in the nation, and schools on the other side of the county with some of the worst... and the income levels surrounding those schools and the per child budget all reflect the same ...

white minority schools get less funding. there are dozens of reasons for that... but it changes outcomes...in an unfair way


--------------------
->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <-

. i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications)

[quote]Enlil said:
I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]


Edited by rxb (07/02/23 05:35 PM)


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OfflineSugabearcrisp
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: rxb]
    #28382894 - 07/02/23 05:50 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Agreed, less funded schools have worse outcomes.


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Offlinechristopera
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28382979 - 07/02/23 07:31 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

That's not always true, though it is mostly true. My son goes to a fairly poor school district, but he was passed along into one of the schools in the district that is a top 5 STEM school in the state. Poor district, good education, arguably a fairly classist system though. The people that can afford to play the system end up in the better schools in that district.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: christopera]
    #28382984 - 07/02/23 07:38 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

If I had to guess, the educational attainment of the parents is the best predictor of a successful school


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Offlinerxb
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: koods]
    #28382997 - 07/02/23 08:05 PM (6 months, 23 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
If I had to guess, the educational attainment of the parents is the best predictor of a successful school




thats largely true, as i pointed out above. making it a very difficult to overcome situation. so because the grandparents were given a less than adequate education the child is now left behind. because the grandparents made less money and paid less taxes, and the parents made less money and paid less taxes and because they can offer less help to the child at home the child is left behind.

so overcoming this inequality is VERY complex. just throwing money in its direction wouldnt fix it in 7 generations.


--------------------
->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <-

. i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications)

[quote]Enlil said:
I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]


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OfflineSeriously_trippin
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: rxb]
    #28383131 - 07/03/23 02:12 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

rxb said:
Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
I believe in equality which means an equal chance for everyone. I just hope colleges don't use this as an excuse to discriminate. Discrimination is unacceptable. If anything I think there should be affirmative action for the poorest people black and white.




equality is a weird trap.

if you believe in an equal start line like a foot race, most minorities dont get that.

if you believe in an equal opportunity to succeed you have to put different weights on starting lines and some people dont like that

if you believe in equality of outcomes, neither of the above two systems provide it.


you cant believe in all equality simultaniously and all three possibilities leave people behind. i believe that early education is the easiest way to produce long term outcomes...but the fact that many minority communities are starting from a position of low-at-home education levels is a further issue to overcome.

its a complex issue.




It is a complex issue indeed. When you say most minorities don't get an equal starting line in the race I'd agree but when it comes specifically with colleges the disadvantage I think they have is being poorer then most. Thus not having money for tution,books etc.

That's where I get into equality though because then I think it comes down to poverty. White or black if you're impoverished you have a very unfair starting line. So I think it's more about money and test scores rather then race in that regard.

Thats true that early education is crucial and the biggest reason why more black people from impoverished areas don't go to college. However I've seen from experience that, that's also the case for "white" areas that are impoverished too. Everyone I knew from the trailer parks I used to go to to visit friends at never got to college and got a job,went to prison or died. So that's where my feeling of wanting everyone that's struggling to have equal opportunities comes from.


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OfflineSeriously_trippin
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Sugabearcrisp]
    #28383132 - 07/03/23 02:17 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
I believe in equality which means an equal chance for everyone. I just hope colleges don't use this as an excuse to discriminate. Discrimination is unacceptable. If anything I think there should be affirmative action for the poorest people black and white.



You ought to know that the case was brought by minority asians who were doing so well in high school and on entrance exams that ivy league schools were discriminating against them fwiw.



Yeah and as I said discrimination like that is unacceptable to me. If you work hard and do good in your schoolwork you should be rewarded no matter what color you are.

Also as I mentioned I hope this SCOTUS decision doesn't give a green light for say a deeply red southern state college to reject Asians or black people and use the excuse that they just weren't good enough when in fact they were and the college just says even SCOTUS says that we don't have to have diversity here.


--------------------
R.I.P
Zombi3, Blue Helix
Modest Mouse
Zappa
Slothie
That Kid With The face
ShLong
Le Canard
split_by_nine
& Big Worm Forever
Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many :heart:


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OfflineSugabearcrisp
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Re: Supreme Court rules to strike down Affirmative Action [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #28383193 - 07/03/23 05:57 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

I
Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
Quote:

Sugabearcrisp said:
Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
I believe in equality which means an equal chance for everyone. I just hope colleges don't use this as an excuse to discriminate. Discrimination is unacceptable. If anything I think there should be affirmative action for the poorest people black and white.



You ought to know that the case was brought by minority asians who were doing so well in high school and on entrance exams that ivy league schools were discriminating against them fwiw.



Yeah and as I said discrimination like that is unacceptable to me. If you work hard and do good in your schoolwork you should be rewarded no matter what color you are.

Also as I mentioned I hope this SCOTUS decision doesn't give a green light for say a deeply red southern state college to reject Asians or black people and use the excuse that they just weren't good enough when in fact they were and the college just says even SCOTUS says that we don't have to have diversity here.




Yeah I would hope that comparison of entrance exam scores would open the school to lawsuit if they selected white students with lower scores consistently.

End of the day though the college admission process is still subjective and the essay, life story and legacy components will still allow enough grey space for the well connected. Just look at Joe Biden's grand daughter, not the one hunter had with a stripper that Joe has denied family membership, but the one who went to Upenn after Joe called the dean who is now an ambassador :lol:


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