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chris77
Archaic Revivalist



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Indigenous protest during 2023 MAPS conference 1
#28373619 - 06/25/23 03:23 AM (6 months, 30 days ago) |
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Hello
I dont know if this is the right forum but i felt like sharing this. Mods please feel free to move it where it belongs in case.
this is the essence for me:
https://twitter.com/annaesilman/status/1672434451148845056?s=20
-------------------- the observer is the observed j. krishnamurti
Edited by chris77 (06/25/23 03:24 AM)
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Indigenous protest during 2023 MAPS conference [Re: chris77] 2
#28374054 - 06/25/23 12:02 PM (6 months, 30 days ago) |
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Certainly appropriate to this subforum, but you should be aware of rule #3: Threads consisting of nothing more than a link, quote, or a video with no commentary or discussion from the threadstarter will be locked.
I think the topic of modern psychedelic research, and how it risks falling into the framework of colonialism, is an important criticism - but I'm also not well-versed enough in this research to form a real criticism. You should expand on your thoughts.
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rxb
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Re: Indigenous protest during 2023 MAPS conference [Re: shivas.wisdom] 1
#28374123 - 06/25/23 01:18 PM (6 months, 30 days ago) |
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how would we go about amending the rule...
im not saying we want to or dont want to, but when the rules were established, media of this type was more centralized, less partisan, and there was a pretty good chance if it was noteworthy you would have been shown it already.
so pointing to say a youtube video at that time more or less was just a ploy for people to advertise their youtube channel.
now it seems like more of a conversation starter... check out this video lets talk about it.
so maybe there is noteworthy debate to be had on this topic.... but i dont know how one would even propose a rule change here.
with regards to the above topic. i think we have spent alot of time and effort silencing and hiding away natives, and i think they have more right to this land than non natives do, and yet even 425 years later we are fucking them over.
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Indigenous protest during 2023 MAPS conference [Re: rxb] 2
#28374190 - 06/25/23 02:32 PM (6 months, 30 days ago) |
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I certainly disagree with your idea that 'check out this video' is a good conversation starter. You don't need to publish a thesis paper, but at least explain the context of what you find interesting and why you consider it so. My time is too valuable to watch every video on the internet I come across, and so without that context I'm likely to skip over the post. I believe this, rather than limiting self-promotion, is the spirit behind the rule.
Nonetheless, you can propose rule changes in this subforum directly, or on the 'administration and feedback' forum here: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/postlist.php/Board/7
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chris77
Archaic Revivalist



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Re: Indigenous protest during 2023 MAPS conference [Re: shivas.wisdom] 1
#28374230 - 06/25/23 03:17 PM (6 months, 30 days ago) |
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Thank you both for the contributions. i will elaborate some of my ideas around this by tomorrow if that is ok. in the meantime, anybody feeling the interest and/or need to comment on this, please do. curious to read your thoughts on the topic. good night
-------------------- the observer is the observed j. krishnamurti
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chopstick
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Re: Indigenous protest during 2023 MAPS conference [Re: chris77] 1
#28374279 - 06/25/23 03:50 PM (6 months, 30 days ago) |
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I'm not sure exactly what the arguments of the protestors are but I do agree that the incoming mass corporatization of the psychedelics industry is concerning. And I certainly don't really trust MAPS.
That said, I'm not sure how it could have gone any other way. This is the reality of the world we live in.
I will also say that the passing of Prop 122 in Colorado was a truly amazing thing and if they are mad that happened then I don't know what to tell them. Although I do wish Prop 122 had gone further but it might not have passed if they tried.
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rxb
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Re: Indigenous protest during 2023 MAPS conference [Re: chopstick] 2
#28374286 - 06/25/23 03:59 PM (6 months, 30 days ago) |
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i prefer the decriminalize nature approach to the maps approach.
-------------------- ->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <- . i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications) [quote]Enlil said: I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Indigenous protest during 2023 MAPS conference [Re: chris77] 1
#28374520 - 06/25/23 07:49 PM (6 months, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
chris77 said: Thank you both for the contributions. i will elaborate some of my ideas around this by tomorrow if that is ok. in the meantime, anybody feeling the interest and/or need to comment on this, please do. curious to read your thoughts on the topic. good night
Yeah, I have thoughts on the indigenous plant medicine aspect, but don't really know too much about current psychedelic research, so I don't know exactly where they may clash. Interested to read your thoughts later.
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Lynnch
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Re: Indigenous protest during 2023 MAPS conference [Re: shivas.wisdom] 2
#28374673 - 06/25/23 11:50 PM (6 months, 29 days ago) |
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I was trying to parse what's going on in that video and, this indigenous group is protesting because.. they tried but weren't allowed to have a panel of tribal elders for the event? I think? Maybe?
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Psicomb


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Re: Indigenous protest during 2023 MAPS conference [Re: Lynnch]
#28374898 - 06/26/23 07:07 AM (6 months, 29 days ago) |
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So this article breaks it down a bit https://www.salon.com/2023/06/25/science-and-corporadelics-in-colorado-can-mushroom-capitalism-save-us-from-an-existential-crisis/
It seems they protested a variety of things but it seems they were most upset by mushrooms being adopted by the western approach to capitalism centered healthcare. The first speaker also brought up sexual assault victims. Maybe the controversy around the folks that were taken advantage of by MAPS therapy facilitators
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When we constantly pull things apart trying to see how it works, we may end up with only an understanding of how to destroy something - nick sand
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chris77
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Re: Indigenous protest during 2023 MAPS conference [Re: Psicomb] 3
#28376061 - 06/27/23 02:53 AM (6 months, 28 days ago) |
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i am quoting an article from Lucid News. It's written by someone called Charles Lighthouse. Why he is up Rick Doblins butt is not the issue here.
my personal view on this is below the quote.
".... When it became clear that the protesters would not be deterred, Doblin invited the group to the stage to speak for one minute. “There are a lot of people who have been harmed by this movement,” said protester Dr. Angela Beers who was the first to speak. According to sources within the indigenous activist community, Beers objected to what they said was the failure of MAPS to provide travel, lodging, and conference passes for some indigenous elders and medicine carriers appearing on the panel “Indigenous Affinity: The Impacts of Legislation on Native Communities.” The community supporting the panel said they raised the funds themselves to bring these elders to the conference.
Beers accused Doblin and MAPS of tokenizing indigenous voices. “You’re sprinkling us in and you’re not giving us the space that we deserve,” she said. “If you don’t liberate the people who are most marginalized under their own land and sovereign nations, you can’t liberate anybody.”
“That’s a good point,” Doblin said. “We have been in an oppressive culture and we will do our best.” Beers continued over Doblin, not ceding the mic. “Nobody owns healing,” she shouted. “You don’t own our culture. You can’t take it from us and we deserve respect.”
Medicine carrier Kathoomi Castro, who drummed during the protest, then stepped up to the podium despite attempts by security personnel to prevent mic access. Doblin intervened saying, “It’s okay, let him speak.”
Castro, visibly emotional, said “It’s so hard to be in front of here. We open our medicines for you to heal, not to take. You’re taking it. You’re colonizing it. You’re damaging us and erasing our cultures. Please stop. Think. Think critically. This is not OK.”
“You are being deceived,” said Castro. “The same happened to tobacco, now causes cancer. The same happened to opium, now causes addiction. The same happened to coca, now causes a lot of harm. Decades from now, you’re gonna see the medicine is harming you because they’re living beings and they don’t like to be abused. Please look at the cycle of colonization and how this continues to happen. We’re here because we love you. We’re here because we don’t want you to harm yourself. Please think. Have conversations including us.”
Two more protestors took the stage whose names Lucid News was unable to fully confirm by press time. The first, a Black man named Jayson said, “The people that need healing the most is the BIPOC community. We can’t afford it. I appreciate you, Rick. I do. I come from the hood. People in the hood don’t get the healing they need. They can’t even afford to attend this conference.” As this was said, the mic was shut off and transition music came on.
Gracefully navigating a challenging situation, Doblin asked for the mic to be turned back on and a fourth protestor, a woman named Kelly from the indigenous community spoke. She said, “The last thing that we want to say is we don’t necessarily need to stop the entire movement. We need to shift the focus. We need to let the indigenous lead.”
Finally, Lira Ornelas Godoy, a student of social work from Brazil who was volunteering at the conference as part of the “vibe patrol,” stepped forward.
With folded hands, Godoy spoke slowly in a low voice that suggested she was channeling her message. She said, “Thank you for the permission of being here. In name of all of our ancestors, may we be strong and united. You listened. We are one. We are united. We are peace. We are love. We will overcome the challenges as they did. Thank you.”
A silence familiar to medicine people filled the space as Godoy and Doblin, alone on the stage, faced each other. Godoy then embraced Doblin to thunderous applause. "
The author has ignored some very important points, for example one important question raised by Dr Beers. "how will the western countries support and help indigenous land and water rights?" from her perspective western companies want to move in to indigenous areas and exploit their goods. this is real and happening today - what a shame!
colonialization taking place again, but on the surface these companies look so great and righteous giving "the medicine" to the world.
Dr. Beers had seemingly organized a panel with some important Navajo Elders and Peyote gate keepers.. and Doblin had ignored them throughout the whole Conference. Hence the aggressive and upset stance which is very understandable imo.
Personally i felt that the protestors are absolutely right. The whole talk about a Renaissance is a scam at best.
it is a fact that companies from the western world, led by businessmen and opinion leaders like Doblin, Stamets and many others is about to open up shamanic healing plants to the western world on a big scale.
a lot of money is already and will be involved and as it looks certain people are now trying to position themselves well, so they will profit from it.
It is also a fact that this is a big question, how to produce and distribute ancient medicines in fair ways, and it is obviously not happening in harmony with indigenous tradition - again!!
so.. That's it from my side. I will support the protestors cause if i can, at least give them all my moral support. Down with capitalist startegies! down with brainwashing and whitewashing!
The psychedelic culture should stand up for fairness, respect and rights of those who have kept these spirits alive throughout many many centuries. the fruits of their labor should not be consumed by us, but taken with care and true appreciation. they have been offered to us. let's not repeat history this time! this is all just my personal opinion. you are welcome to disagree.
chris
Edited by chris77 (06/27/23 05:41 AM)
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chris77
Archaic Revivalist



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Re: Indigenous protest during 2023 MAPS conference [Re: chris77]
#28378470 - 06/29/23 12:32 AM (6 months, 26 days ago) |
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looks like i killed the thread. maybe too many words ?
-------------------- the observer is the observed j. krishnamurti
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Indigenous protest during 2023 MAPS conference [Re: chris77] 1
#28378504 - 06/29/23 01:38 AM (6 months, 26 days ago) |
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Not at all! It's a new topic of discussion for me, so I've been waiting until I can dedicate an appropriate amount of thought. S'just not as easy as whipping out another snarky rebuttal in the Ukraine war thread.
I also enjoy a slow moving thread when the topic hits right.
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Lynnch
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Re: Indigenous protest during 2023 MAPS conference [Re: shivas.wisdom] 1
#28378513 - 06/29/23 01:59 AM (6 months, 26 days ago) |
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Twas gonna say the same thing 
I don't really know enough about MAPS to comment on whether or not they are doing any harm. I guess the question is about gatekeeping, and I'm suspicious of anyone who demands control.
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chris77
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Re: Indigenous protest during 2023 MAPS conference [Re: Lynnch]
#28378516 - 06/29/23 02:03 AM (6 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Lynnch said: Twas gonna say the same thing 
I don't really know enough about MAPS to comment on whether or not they are doing any harm. I guess the question is about gatekeeping, and I'm suspicious of anyone who demands control.
sure thing. i think it depends. if someone comes into your garden to harvest your weed you would want to control his behaviour, no?
me too, i can Not say much about MAPS, but i would hope someone who is really informed would chime in.
-------------------- the observer is the observed j. krishnamurti
Edited by chris77 (06/29/23 02:04 AM)
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The Blind Ass
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Re: Indigenous protest during 2023 MAPS conference [Re: chris77]
#28378517 - 06/29/23 02:05 AM (6 months, 26 days ago) |
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-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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chopstick
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Re: Indigenous protest during 2023 MAPS conference [Re: The Blind Ass] 1
#28378783 - 06/29/23 08:49 AM (6 months, 26 days ago) |
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To me it sounds like the indigenous community would rather all psychedelics stay illegal so that they maintain a monopoly on being the sole ones with legal protection on cultural grounds, and they maintain their monopoly on healing ceremonies. "You're hurting indigenous businesses" was one of their arguments.
I'm sure they have other reasons too, but this is what it boils down to.
Thousands of white boys (and black/brown) have to continue to go to jail so their communities can remain 'protected' and they continue to be the only ones with a special legal status.
No thanks.
Nobody is stopping them from maintaining their traditions and if they are worried about business, they can easily take advantage of their pre-existing legal protection to massively undercut the 'healing centers', which are ridiculously priced.
No prosecutor is going to throw a Navajo shaman in jail for holding a peyote ceremony. And it has been that way for decades.
They fear change, in my opinion.
Of course there will be some negative consequences, but the consequences of doing nothing and maintaining the status quo is much higher.
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Yukon Cornelius
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Re: Indigenous protest during 2023 MAPS conference [Re: chopstick]
#28378803 - 06/29/23 09:22 AM (6 months, 26 days ago) |
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I'm surprised to say I agree with Chopstick on this.
We can only stem the tide so much.
I'm confused about why indigenous culture would object to the entire mission of MAPS, which is decriminalization of psychedelics, if not outright legal status.
They're covering so many substances that have no connection whatsoever to indigenous healing practices. I'd understand the need to protect rights to land access and preventing the extinction of native entheogenic plants.
It makes sense to include tribal council members in the panels as well as advisory board for psychedelic research and legislative measures. The rest of the premise behind their grievances is flimsy if the goal is to prevent persecution and provide legal protection to those who choose to use psychedelics in a responsible manner.
Maybe there's something I'm missing here?
-------------------- "I didn't know chicken's wore suspenders" - Towelie
Edited by Yukon Cornelius (06/29/23 10:26 AM)
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