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Lucis
Nutritional Yeast

Registered: 03/28/15
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The Self Is An Illusion Created By Language 1
#28378185 - 06/28/23 07:48 PM (6 months, 27 days ago) |
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I am fascinated by language and how it shapes much of what we do, I found this video interesting because it's very true IMO.
-------------------- ©️
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Buster_Brown
L'une


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Re: The Self Is An Illusion Created By Language [Re: Lucis]
#28378240 - 06/28/23 08:53 PM (6 months, 27 days ago) |
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So I don't need to practice music in order to play? It seems the "I" is indeed instrumental in the ability.
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syncro
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Re: The Self Is An Illusion Created By Language [Re: Buster_Brown]
#28379290 - 06/29/23 05:27 PM (6 months, 26 days ago) |
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Volition, but then it can be called, or that which seems to act with purpose, part of the machinery. Then what is beyond it?
We can be awake in deep sleep or seeming that in meditation, etc. Still it's a circle.
Is Nietzsche pointing to anything beyond it? Does empty space have 'I'?
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syncro
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Re: The Self Is An Illusion Created By Language [Re: syncro]
#28379542 - 06/29/23 08:58 PM (6 months, 26 days ago) |
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I recalled that Nietzsche takes it beyond what may belong in this forum , but I don't mind, for one. I imagine I read some of him earlier but don't remember. He does have a metaphysicalizing of the world, vicious for the mystics and faithful, on the surface, but not per se outside of spiritual topics. It's kind of off topic for the thread I guess but I found this talk a good summary for the unfamiliar.
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syncro
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Re: The Self Is An Illusion Created By Language [Re: syncro]
#28379631 - 06/29/23 10:59 PM (6 months, 26 days ago) |
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(more diverting from the topic to Nietzsche. Perhaps we should make a Nietzsche thread instead?)
The "highest formula of affirmation that is at all obtainable," the "fundamental conception" of Thus Spoke Zarathustra, the hero of Nietzsche, "the concept of Dionysis Himself", is Omnicyclic! Asante! It is interesting, the Ubermensch. Not saying they are equivalent as may be seen preceding and following in the talk.
I didn't timestamp, but at 19:40 in this. The whole thing is worth the watch.
Friedrich Nietzsche | The Long Version (~26 min)
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


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Re: The Self Is An Illusion Created By Language [Re: syncro] 1
#28380823 - 06/30/23 10:50 PM (6 months, 25 days ago) |
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Self as something other than pure consciousness is purely a concept perceived through symbols..
But so can self awareness can be described through symbolic communication.
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lostintimenspc
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Re: The Self Is An Illusion Created By Language [Re: BrendanFlock] 1
#28381738 - 07/01/23 07:13 PM (6 months, 24 days ago) |
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Reality is a strange thing. It likes us asking questions.
I haven't had a certain sense of self for ages, since doing mushrooms, LSD and DMT. I just don't think I'm very important anymore. I mean I'm 'there' but there's not much of me. I have wondered if my name is most of it.
-------------------- LSD, mushrooms and DMT are different structural levels within the same magically simulated mystery sometimes blandly called 'life' Your life, your call.
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solarshroomster
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Re: The Self Is An Illusion Created By Language [Re: lostintimenspc] 2
#28382213 - 07/02/23 07:57 AM (6 months, 24 days ago) |
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I love BrandanFlock and lostintimenspc's posts and feel very similarly (I think).
I think we can easily get confused in semantics, so I would define my terms as such...
Ego is our understanding of who we think we are. It can be understood as "little you". "BrendanFlock" and "lostintimenspc"'s egos feel as though they are separate from the rest and are a unique identity. In truth, however, in my experience and belief, they are a "real" constructions of the Mind / Universal Self. When we die or take psychedelics, our egos dissolve, and we experience "pure consciousness", which I call Mind / Universal Self.
Ego death occurs when we recognize that our identity as fundamentally individual, separate beings no longer holds any meaning. Instead, we see a great unity behind us through pure consciousness / Mind / Universal Self.
Universal Self / Mind / pure consciousness is the perceiver behind all perception. It can be understood as "big you". The perceiver behind all perceptions, all beings that ever called themselves "I" in the loosest sense of the word (this, thus, includes ALL conscious life forms; not just humans) -- all of the beings of consciousness that ever were, are, and will be... are all one.
So, semantically, I don't know if I would say that the "Self is an Illusion". For me, the Self is the only thing that's real; it's the "ego" that is the illusion. The "ego" is the painting of "Lucis", "Buster_Brown", "syncro", "George Washington", "Isaac Newton", etc., on the canvas of pure consciousness.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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Buster_Brown
L'une


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Re: The Self Is An Illusion Created By Language [Re: solarshroomster]
#28382219 - 07/02/23 08:00 AM (6 months, 24 days ago) |
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I think the idea is a non-existence beyond a corporate identity.
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syncro
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Re: The Self Is An Illusion Created By Language [Re: Buster_Brown] 1
#28382363 - 07/02/23 10:02 AM (6 months, 24 days ago) |
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I have a problem with non-self too, unless it's nihilism, but even nirvana is not nihilism. If anything is there, how could it not be self?
AI 'In Sanskrit, "nirvana" (निर्वाण) is composed of two parts: "nir" (निर्) and "vana" (वाण). "Nir" means "without" or "not," indicating a negation or absence of something. "Vana" means "blowing" or "weaving." However, in the context of nirvana, "vana" also carries the meaning of "desire" or "craving." Therefore, the compound term "nirvana" can be understood as the state of being without desire, craving, or attachment.'
Again Vasistha - 'All is the one infinite consciousness.' 'The world appearance arises with movement of thought, and together they cease.'
I just remembered, the swami (Sarvapriyananda) of the Vedanta Society has an interesting talk on self-non-self debate, with philosophical histories from Buddhists, etc. In our vedantic bias, of course we decided for self.
It was concluded the Buddha never said there was a self, nor that there was not. We were talking about it in another (several) threads somewhere. I guess primarily in the AtmaBodha thread, Shankara.
Sarvapriyananda is funny and humble and a resourceful speaker I think. This is the video, Vedantic Self and Buddhist Non-Self
I'm currently watching his talk on Sunyam - the Void.
Edited by syncro (07/02/23 12:00 PM)
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syncro
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Re: The Self Is An Illusion Created By Language [Re: syncro]
#28382463 - 07/02/23 11:23 AM (6 months, 24 days ago) |
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The self is cut down from phenomena and mind through centuries of debate, yet the void is nevertheless luminous.
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lostintimenspc
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Re: The Self Is An Illusion Created By Language [Re: syncro]
#28382915 - 07/02/23 06:09 PM (6 months, 23 days ago) |
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I think there is just Reality, reality, or The Reality, this is a general sense. I don't think we are essentially all the same if that's what you're implying though. This is an ontological, phenomenological hurdle. For one thing, thinking we are all one self makes life pretty meaningless, when instead I am on my phenomenological journeys either on or off psychedelics, there is meaning everywhere. Notice how you can just assume it. I think its provisional, like all knowledge. People find something universal in themselves and project it.
Better to seek out the alien and the unknown within the present, perhaps not straying too far from the premise that life seems to be mostly illusory or playful, say, that it might all be composed of imagination. This is enough to remain calm.
-------------------- LSD, mushrooms and DMT are different structural levels within the same magically simulated mystery sometimes blandly called 'life' Your life, your call.
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spinvis
Stranger

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Re: The Self Is An Illusion Created By Language [Re: lostintimenspc]
#28383184 - 07/03/23 05:20 AM (6 months, 23 days ago) |
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Ramesh S. Balsekar - Foreword - Wei Wu Wei - Fingers Pointing Towards the Moon: Reflections of a Pilgrim on the Way; "Consciousness is all there is; other than Consciousness, nothing is. And this is a concept. . . . Make no mistake: whatever I say—whatever its impact—is a concept. It is not the truth. A concept is something that someone may accept and someone may not. The Truth is that which no one can deny. And therefore the only Truth, in phenomenality, is “I AM”—the impersonal Awareness of Being. On this basis, whatever any sage has ever said, whatever any scripture of any religion says is a concept."
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Buster_Brown
L'une


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Re: The Self Is An Illusion Created By Language [Re: spinvis]
#28383196 - 07/03/23 06:01 AM (6 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
spinvis said: Ramesh S. Balsekar - Foreword - Wei Wu Wei - Fingers Pointing Towards the Moon: Reflections of a Pilgrim on the Way; "Consciousness is all there is; other than Consciousness, nothing is. And this is a concept. . . . Make no mistake: whatever I say—whatever its impact—is a concept. It is not the truth. A concept is something that someone may accept and someone may not. The Truth is that which no one can deny. And therefore the only Truth, in phenomenality, is “I AM”—the impersonal Awareness of Being. On this basis, whatever any sage has ever said, whatever any scripture of any religion says is a concept."
Synchrony
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: The Self Is An Illusion Created By Language [Re: Buster_Brown]
#28383437 - 07/03/23 10:07 AM (6 months, 23 days ago) |
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This is a gist of what the swami (the philosophers) were saying too. Affirming (self) is another concept, therefore, perhaps why the Buddha gives no conceptual answer.
Edited by syncro (07/03/23 10:15 AM)
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



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Re: The Self Is An Illusion Created By Language [Re: syncro]
#28383618 - 07/03/23 12:31 PM (6 months, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Abstract thinking is the ability to think about objects, principles, and ideas that are not physically present
I maintain that about 1 out of 20 of us reaches this stage in human psychological development.
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