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Offlinemichaelmichael
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Why are mutants / substrains like Enigma not dying out?
    #28377266 - 06/28/23 01:31 AM (10 months, 15 days ago)

Hello,
i am new to mycology and shroomery so please tell me if this is the right place for this question.
I was wondering why mutants / substrains that do not sporulate and that are only kept alive by cloning do not "die out" due to senescence.
My understanding was that if you found good genetics through isolation, you want to preserve those in a slant when the mycelium is "young". If you keep cloning your flushes or doing g2g senescence will kick in and the strain will die.
How is it that substrains like Enigma can be kept alive all around the world?

Edit: spelling

Edited by michaelmichael (06/28/23 01:32 AM)

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OfflinePandaskis
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Re: Why are mutants / substrains like Enigma not dying out? [Re: michaelmichael]
    #28377497 - 06/28/23 08:28 AM (10 months, 15 days ago)

:threadmonitor:

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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: Why are mutants / substrains like Enigma not dying out? [Re: Pandaskis]
    #28378035 - 06/28/23 05:11 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

They are. Since the very initial enigma mutation potency has gone down the drain.


--------------------
"In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old
In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser
In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter
As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms
And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply
Different ways in which The
All-That Is
Perceives Itself"

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OfflinePandaskis
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Re: Why are mutants / substrains like Enigma not dying out? [Re: Eclipse3130]
    #28378123 - 06/28/23 06:31 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

Is that mutation hard to come by? If not, wouldnt you just hit the reset on senescence if you managed to grow and clone and stabilize that mutation again?

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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: Why are mutants / substrains like Enigma not dying out? [Re: Pandaskis]
    #28378132 - 06/28/23 06:52 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

Enigma is a clone only strain it doesn't produce spores and not hard to come by it was massively spread initially for free it came from a Tidal wave mutation I believe


--------------------
"In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old
In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser
In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter
As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms
And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply
Different ways in which The
All-That Is
Perceives Itself"

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OfflineLtLurker
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Re: Why are mutants / substrains like Enigma not dying out? [Re: Eclipse3130]
    #28378194 - 06/28/23 08:05 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

Yes tidal wave. If I understand correctly. The only way Enigma will survive longer is if people take on caretaking and save specimens as long as possible before removing from cold and reslanting new growth. Constant life and growing will eventually lead to death.

I beleive the explosion in genetic sharing amoung novice growers through online communities is what's causing all the reverts we are starting to see. Many aren't selectively breeding and aren't slanting specimens for long term use and instead constantly progressing generations through Spore without selecting the desired traits so they can sell more syringes. Those lineages then begin to outnumber and overtake the more carefully cultivated lineages.

Honestly it makes me sad that we may lose these unless more take it on themselves. I've still got some RW I initially received 1 generation after public release haven't touched 1 of the swabs and am holding a couple of the first generation I grew from it at, occasional giving it to people I think will appreciate its true value while we see it reverting already in some places.

Peu is one I've looked for a long time. I beleive there's 1 sample I've yet to run, but all so far have given the same reverting pheno without pe potency. I've still never seen a current peu grow with pheno like the og pics, same for ksss. My golden halo is slightly darkened but still gold in the thin parts of a print.

This is part of the reason I've been so adamant about not releasing my personal project until I feel it's as uniform and stable as I can get it without wasting generations. Lately I've been considering finding like minded growers to caretake the first public release genetics and maybe the parent clone.

I also hold out hope that legalization may  create more pressure for quality. For weed we had a boom in strains from all the crossing which may sound adverse  to what I hope, but they are selectively breeding for better outcomes.

Or I'm just becoming old, crotchety, and full of myself. One or the other.

Edited by LtLurker (06/28/23 08:37 PM)

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Offlinetrippleblack
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Re: Why are mutants / substrains like Enigma not dying out? [Re: LtLurker]
    #28378310 - 06/28/23 09:26 PM (10 months, 15 days ago)

some of us have freeze dried these cultures and use proper slant practice, different agar formula, proper cold storage, ect.  i properly stored tw2 days after its release; and plenty of others have too. 

i bought a lypholization machine..  I  would love a nanopore sequencer to monitor genetic stability; similar techniques are standard amongst the real deal spawn banks.     

a lot of the great strains lost it's potency as variations got bred out.. like those giant apes i see going around.. or a weak potency ghost culture. these kids are swabbing or cloning any old fruit, and chasing unique phenotypes of unknown potency.  If you want to keep the potency on the extreme end, good breeding work is essential.

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OfflineLtLurker
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Re: Why are mutants / substrains like Enigma not dying out? [Re: trippleblack]
    #28378531 - 06/29/23 03:03 AM (10 months, 14 days ago)

I dont have freeze dry or deep freeze equipment, and I don't have the education just a basic layman grasp of the procedure and concepts.

Would you be willing to help me? I want to know who is participating in these banks and provide them with the samples I mentioned above for long term survival. I wish I knew this existed before now, I woulda gotten more involved instead of hunting for things alone a dripping samples0 into the community.

I actually came over here to look for Alan and ask for a bio assay. Figured he was the closest thing to a genetic bank we had and could trust him as a caretaker in a way.
I know the potency of this new one is very high, it lights me up how Enigma did and locally people of different experience have gone nuts for them, and they've never really cared about phenotypes just potency.

Edited by LtLurker (06/29/23 03:13 AM)

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OfflineNFLProof
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Re: Why are mutants / substrains like Enigma not dying out? [Re: LtLurker]
    #28378718 - 06/29/23 07:57 AM (10 months, 14 days ago)

I've been wondering lately if there's someone out there almost acting like a seed bank. If that's even possible. That would be a really interesting project to watch develop.


--------------------
Yeah, yeah.

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Why are mutants / substrains like Enigma not dying out? [Re: michaelmichael] * 4
    #28379205 - 06/29/23 04:09 PM (10 months, 14 days ago)

Psilocybe cubensis doesn't senesce very rapidly, but it does a bit, so people who stored fresh cultures well should have better genetics.

It is likely that Enigma isn't one thing, but is a mutation that has happened to various strains over the years.

I am not sure if TW2 is the same as Enigma.

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Offlinetrippleblack
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Re: Why are mutants / substrains like Enigma not dying out? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #28380205 - 06/30/23 01:22 PM (10 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

LtLurker said:
I dont have freeze dry or deep freeze equipment, and I don't have the education just a basic layman grasp of the procedure and concepts.

Would you be willing to help me? I want to know who is participating in these banks and provide them with the samples I mentioned above for long term survival. I wish I knew this existed before now, I woulda gotten more involved instead of hunting for things alone a dripping samples0 into the community.

I actually came over here to look for Alan and ask for a bio assay. Figured he was the closest thing to a genetic bank we had and could trust him as a caretaker in a way.
I know the potency of this new one is very high, it lights me up how Enigma did and locally people of different experience have gone nuts for them, and they've never really cared about phenotypes just potency.




this stuff is simple, just get familiar with the terms.. nothing scientific or complex, just a 1 2 3 step process.  the layman is following the protocols designed for freeze drying bacteria cultures; only a little tweaking is needed for fungi.  I purchased a labconco lab freeze dryer, (been eying the lab freeze dryers designed by harvest right recently).    there is no 100% accepted protocol for freeze drying mushroom cultures, and the general information floating around via academic papers is a bit outdated.  i researched the industry standards, then found a gold mine via the company ops diagnostics - i was lucky enough to pick their lab techs brain over a phone call; and their website has enough documentation to get a strong understanding of procedure.

i don't know of any caregivers myself.. i'm just assuming their has to be some; especially via avenues like rich hawk ect..  i have a sexy doomsday vault, but i'm not a collector..

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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: Why are mutants / substrains like Enigma not dying out? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #28380763 - 06/30/23 09:45 PM (10 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Psilocybe cubensis doesn't senesce very rapidly, but it does a bit, so people who stored fresh cultures well should have better genetics.

It is likely that Enigma isn't one thing, but is a mutation that has happened to various strains over the years.

I am not sure if TW2 is the same as Enigma.




I'd agree with you for the most part especially with strains that are not mutated/albino/unique phenotypic characteristics.(The classics/landraces)

Otherwise I've seen unique phenotypes and crosses senesce and revert a lot quicker due to their diluted DNA i'd imagine.


--------------------
"In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old
In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser
In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter
As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms
And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply
Different ways in which The
All-That Is
Perceives Itself"

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OfflineLtLurker
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Re: Why are mutants / substrains like Enigma not dying out? [Re: Eclipse3130]
    #28380829 - 06/30/23 10:58 PM (10 months, 12 days ago)

I'm woth Alan there. People have always blamed senescence when really it's just contaminated transfers or in this case people not scrutinizing what they print and propagate. Getting something to revert doesn't take nearly the time and effort it took to create the pheno, your just allowing dominant genes back in with bad selections. No one tells you they made your
Pe syringe with a non pe looking fruit from a poor producing tub. They just take your money. Hell some out there probably weren't even pe to start and they gave a normal cube so people didn't catch on. Takes way less work.

Edited by LtLurker (06/30/23 11:02 PM)

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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Why are mutants / substrains like Enigma not dying out? [Re: michaelmichael] * 1
    #28382146 - 07/02/23 06:59 AM (10 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

michaelmichael said:
Hello,
i am new to mycology and shroomery so please tell me if this is the right place for this question.
I was wondering why mutants / substrains that do not sporulate and that are only kept alive by cloning do not "die out" due to senescence.
My understanding was that if you found good genetics through isolation, you want to preserve those in a slant when the mycelium is "young". If you keep cloning your flushes or doing g2g senescence will kick in and the strain will die.
How is it that substrains like Enigma can be kept alive all around the world?

Edit: spelling



Senescence is so overblownof a worry.

There's yeast strains from 1500 still being used


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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: Why are mutants / substrains like Enigma not dying out? [Re: LtLurker]
    #28382421 - 07/02/23 10:50 AM (10 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

LtLurker said:
I'm woth Alan there. People have always blamed senescence when really it's just contaminated transfers or in this case people not scrutinizing what they print and propagate. Getting something to revert doesn't take nearly the time and effort it took to create the pheno, your just allowing dominant genes back in with bad selections. No one tells you they made your
Pe syringe with a non pe looking fruit from a poor producing tub. They just take your money. Hell some out there probably weren't even pe to start and they gave a normal cube so people didn't catch on. Takes way less work.




I have a specific APE even when ran back from spores it will start reverting within a few grain generations, it really doesn't last long. As well I've seen Ghost become weak after sitting on slant or in storage for only a few months.

Only thing I can think of is they degenerate quickly due to age, my idea is you stay close to spore with these and I haven't ran into the issue.

But I agree with everything else you said, I can only speak from my experience though.

You mention things are reverting and dying out from being constantly grown which I agree with, you also say constantly growing things create death eventually. But you also say senescence isn't common? I'm not sure exactly where you're coming from with this, are you saying most people are just running back from spore not selecting proper traits is why this is happening? I've tended to see the opposite, I hardly see people even do spore work anymore they prefer to live off live cultures and run them into the ground until they're dead and move onto the next.

I couldn't tell you how many times I've seen people run the same culture until they're dead or getting slow and weak. If this isn't senescence I must have the wrong definition :confused:

It reminds me of a PE I ran from spore isolation and then clone the same plate of which performed very strongly for a long time and I continuously transfered and grew out until eventually it literally did nothing but abort for the rest of its life. Is that not senescence? :lol:


--------------------
"In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old
In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser
In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter
As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms
And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply
Different ways in which The
All-That Is
Perceives Itself"

Edited by Eclipse3130 (07/02/23 11:11 AM)

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OfflineLtLurker
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Re: Why are mutants / substrains like Enigma not dying out? [Re: Eclipse3130]
    #28383339 - 07/03/23 08:49 AM (10 months, 10 days ago)

I dont see how you're experience supports the argument. If it keeps reverting soon after going back to that slore sample, then I think it supports what im saying, the Spores might be from a reverting fruit  and it was forwarded anyway. They aren't old, sounds like sectoring is making weak combinations and loosing the "good genes" more easily.

But I'm not smart enough or knowledgible in the field. Maybe im missing something

Edited by LtLurker (07/03/23 08:53 AM)

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OfflineJust M
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Re: Why are mutants / substrains like Enigma not dying out? [Re: LtLurker]
    #28437758 - 08/18/23 01:31 AM (8 months, 26 days ago)

Saving for later


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APE x NSS cross I created


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OfflineMuad.Dweeb
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Re: Why are mutants / substrains like Enigma not dying out? [Re: Just M] * 1
    #28438219 - 08/18/23 01:49 PM (8 months, 26 days ago)

Seems to me that a lot of "senescence" is actually culture degradation due to poor culture hygiene. I have Enigma from 2019 that still slaps. I have a good clutch of other such mutations and have been doing some crude experiments to get a feel of where the weirdness is coming from, if not what exactly is causing it. My current working hypothesis is that the unusual formations (I like to call them pseudocarps, some literature calls them carpyphoroids/carpophoroids) are a combination of transcriptome mutations and mtDNA mutations, based on experiments dedikaryotizing and crossing Enigma with sporulating, more agaric-shaped stock.


[TPB.F2.Eidolon]

Moreover, a lot of people have this idea that Enigma doesn't produce spores. First, it does produce spores when it manages to assemble a normal fruit body. It's not a terribly common occurance, but it's not some ulta-rare drop, either. I personally know a half dozen people other than myself to get normal sporocarps in the midst of their Enigma sub. So, lineages from Enigma spore already exist.

Beyond that, a lot of people also forget/don't know that cubes (and a lot of mushrooms) have parasexual systems (outside of making spores).

It's my belief, based on observation, that a lot of the more unusual phenotypes in circulation having a high rate of revertant expression and degradations (like lower yield, potency, etc...) have a much less speculative cause: hype and inexperience. People are buying strains/clones and supposed stable varieties expecting they will automatically live up to the hype and the advertising in photos. You see this all the time with the, "What strain has best yields/potency/is fastest growing?" posts literally everywhere. When someone with lower skills than the initial cultivator/vendor/spore source has to maintain it themselves, it stands to reason what they share/sell will reflect the lower skill level. Then lower tier spore slingers undercut other vendors to make a buck, and noobs and cheapos buy and proliferate the trash. It's like buying a flip phone from 1999 and saying that cell phones are really starting to go downhill.

Maybe I'm just cynical. Or maybe I'm actually optimistic, because it seems like this/these sort of mutation(s) happen naturally more than we might think, and neither we as cultivators or the cultures as organisms really need to worry about some cataclysm caused by domesticating them. As long as they are being maintained by competent cultivators, they're going to be around for a long while yet, and more and more like them will be discovered as we select against those traits less and less.

[/rant]


--------------------
A beginning is the time for taking the most delicate care that the balances are correct. This every sister of the Bene Gesserit knows.



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