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nektar61
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: mushhead]
#28376529 - 06/27/23 12:36 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushhead said: ...I say we do away with the whole evaporation causes pinning because that is simply not true. Evaporation is a cog within the machine that we call fruiting...
Closer. ---
Quote:
Tri-Polar said: ...what is the goal you're working towards? To change the language to "humidity causes pinning" rather than "evaporation causes pinning"?
Even closer.
That and the goal of when someone says "evaporation causes pinning" for people to say "prove it" (if one is feeling feisty), or "citation needed" (if one is feeling charitable.)
haha
I was going to link this thread on Reddit, but then we'd have people arguing "evaporation causes pinning and that's why you have to fan your grows every 4 hours in your fruiting chamber"
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mushhead
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: nektar61] 3
#28376557 - 06/27/23 01:02 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Yeah tbh we don't want the reddit crowd popping in here to spread their cancer. I'm sitting here trying to think of a better way of explaining this without getting all technical. Evaporation is just a variable which assists us in keeping conditions right. It's not essential - but if you have your tubs set up and dialed in than you have optimal conditions. Optimal conditions being a proper FAE cycle, causing evaporation, which causes RH to be held.
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milkboy
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: nektar61] 3
#28376559 - 06/27/23 01:04 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Im curious in what ways you have encouraged and discouraged evaporation
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ShroomNugget
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: milkboy] 1
#28376570 - 06/27/23 01:25 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Without any scientific backing or data I completely agree that evaporation does nothing to influence pinning. I'm a newer cultivator but I'm a mechanical engineer for building systems. That being said I feel I have a level head and great understanding of common sense.
I don't think evaporation has anything to do with it. I think the benefit of misting is relative to the humidity levels and some of that water is absorbed into myc/sub.
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nektar61
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: ShroomNugget]
#28376581 - 06/27/23 01:42 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
ShroomNugget said: Without any scientific backing or data I completely agree that evaporation does nothing to influence pinning. I'm a newer cultivator but I'm a mechanical engineer for building systems. That being said I feel I have a level head and great understanding of common sense.
I don't think evaporation has anything to do with it. I think the benefit of misting is relative to the humidity levels and some of that water is absorbed into myc/sub.
So another vote for "humidity triggers pinning."
Agreed.
Anyone here grow shrooms in desert environments? Ever leave the lid off? Do they grow well if the substrate is watered? There would be evaporation but not humidity.
Edited by nektar61 (06/27/23 01:52 PM)
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nektar61
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: milkboy]
#28376582 - 06/27/23 01:49 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
milkboy said: Im curious in what ways you have encouraged and discouraged evaporation
Haven't done it as a study, but have done all variations of heavy misting, light misting, no misting; lid on all the time, lid off every day for 8 hours, fanning (haha, early on), using an electric fan to dry an overly wet grow, growing in spring when air is high humidity, growing when hot late summer when air is low humidity, etc.
None of them stands out as having had strikingly different pin or shrooms growth. Most produce canopies or near canopies. Clean agar on clean grain produces clean spawn, which produces good shrooms if the genetics are good.
I will say that the stress on "pinning" seems weird in "evaporation triggers pinning."
I'm here to grow shrooms, not pins. I've seen grows with more pins produce less fruits, and / or less weight of fruits, than one that showed fewer pins early on.
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mushhead
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: nektar61] 2
#28376586 - 06/27/23 01:53 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
nektar61 said: So another vote for "humidity triggers pinning."
Agreed.
Now that I can get behind. Better way to put it, humidity triggers pinning.
 I'll admit I had such a hard time with explaining that because evaporation leads to high humidity and I use that bit of knowledge all the time for my tubs, I add a bit of extra water, that's fine, it'll evaporate and cause humidity. Humidity in turn causes fruiting because those are the conditions the fungus wants.
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altford78
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: mushhead] 1
#28376589 - 06/27/23 01:54 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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so "evaporation = pinning" actually means "humidity and fae = shrooms" ?
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nektar61
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: altford78]
#28376594 - 06/27/23 01:56 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
altford78 said: so "evaporation = pinning" actually means "humidity and fae = shrooms" ?
YES!
I'm looking forward to seeing someone say "Evaporation triggers pinning" again. Especially if they're a noob but even more especially if they're experienced.
Funny, the top "Similar Thread" I'm seeing below is a 20 year old thread: Does higher CO2 levels trigger pinning? (spoiler, no it doesn't, that's the long-debunked "separate fruiting conditions" bullshit.)
First post on the thread says
Quote:
i read on mycotopia that too much air exchange slows down pinning, and you should just fan 1x untill pins, then fan 3x when fruiting?
everyone here is recommending fanning.. im confused
That thread has people recommending more Co2 for pinning, temperature drops for pinning, fanning for pinning. Also has RR who has written books on this, prodouced a popular video series on growing shrooms, and is an OG / TC recommending separate fruiting conditions.
Separate fruiting conditions are not needed, and a lot of TCs and other great growers here don't do it now and produce killer canopies.
Old tek is not always good tek in shrooms.
Edited by nektar61 (06/27/23 02:05 PM)
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milkboy
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: nektar61]
#28376617 - 06/27/23 02:10 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Can you grow shrooms without evaporation?
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aPurpleCray0n
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: nektar61] 1
#28376622 - 06/27/23 02:12 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
nektar61 said: Old tek is not always good tek in shrooms.
Isnβt talking about humidity βold tekβ? I thought most people care more about surface conditions vs the rh in their tub these days?
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Screwup
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: aPurpleCray0n] 2
#28376628 - 06/27/23 02:20 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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So I need 95% humidity again?
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ShroomNugget
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: Screwup] 1
#28376640 - 06/27/23 02:38 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Nah nobody said anything about precise humidity levels. At the basic level Humidity is the measure of how much moisture is in the air. Higher humidity = more moisture in air = more moisture available for absorption thru sub/myc/fruits.
I've read that myc and fruits can absorb moisture from the air so it only makes sense. That being said, I've only cultivated over the past 3 months but I've become quite successful IMO. I currently run shoeboxes in a homemade martha and I keep the humidity at 79-81%. I also lightly mist twice a day.
Edit: I wish we could go thru the entire forum and remove all the old, outdated, nasty info in all cases like this!
Edited by ShroomNugget (06/27/23 02:41 PM)
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nektar61
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: ShroomNugget]
#28376649 - 06/27/23 02:54 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
ShroomNugget said: I wish we could go thru the entire forum and remove all the old, outdated, nasty info in all cases like this!
I wished we could do that too. But removing it is removing history. (For instance: If it's completely gone, we can't quote 21 year old threads showing that people saying "evaporation triggers pinning" were originally justifying fanning their grows multiple times a day.)
So last I year asked Ythan, the founder of Shroomery, to add something at the top of threads older then 5 years old.
He did. That's why they all say "Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead." Example.
Then he manually removed it from some threads that are that old but very active every day, like "Agar Envy" and "Post Your Cultivation Picture of The Day"
Edited by nektar61 (06/27/23 03:00 PM)
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Tri
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: aPurpleCray0n]
#28376650 - 06/27/23 02:55 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
aPurpleCray0n said:
Quote:
nektar61 said: Old tek is not always good tek in shrooms.
Isnβt talking about humidity βold tekβ? I thought most people care more about surface conditions vs the rh in their tub these days?
See i understand drawing a line between evaporation and humidity but at the same time I'm maybe missing the point..
We reasonably know that humidity/micro-climate encourages pinning (imo more pins = better, so is a thing I want), and we only have varied means of evaporation to create that humidity, we can have properly hydrated substrate and dialed in FAE(evaporation from substrate), we can lightly mist(evaporation from surface beads), or we can run a humidifier (evaporation from reservoir)
Is it just the point of clarifying that the literal act of evaporation isn't specifically a pinning trigger, that rather its the water + FAE --> evaporation --> RH thats important?
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Edited by Tri (06/27/23 02:56 PM)
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nektar61
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: Tri]
#28376657 - 06/27/23 03:05 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tri-Polar said: Is it just the point of clarifying that the literal act of evaporation isn't specifically a pinning trigger, that rather its the water + FAE --> evaporation --> RH thats important?
Both, but more the latter.
Also it's useful to call out old bullshit that gets repeated.
People call out fanning (and they should), but if you go look at those 21 year old first posts about "evaporation triggers pinning" several of them were justifying fanning by saying that. -- I think a Martha is proof, or at least evidence, that you get pins with humidity but no evaporation. You're pumping in mist several times a day, keeping the inside at max RH, and the excess water pools at the bottom, right? (I've never done one, it's old dumb tek and increases chance of contam. But it's said to grow lots of shrooms which means lots of pins.)
Also, Pinning isn't really the goal. Shrooms are the goal. It's better to have 8 chonker shrooms filling a shoebox than 100 tiny shrooms. At least for harvesting and probably for potency too.
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Chamo
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: Tri]
#28376658 - 06/27/23 03:05 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Why is the emphasis being placed on evaporation?
From my understanding the pinning trigger is not loss of moisture from the substrate, but it is the removal of carbon dioxide with fresh air. Iβve never heard that evaporation causes pinning. Only that the introduction of fresh air initiates the fruiting process in mycelium. That doesnβt mean itβs the only important factor for healthy pins.
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Screwup
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: Chamo]
#28376661 - 06/27/23 03:09 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Chamo said: Why is the emphasis being placed on evaporation?
From my understanding the pinning trigger is not loss of moisture from the substrate, but it is the removal of carbon dioxide with fresh air. Iβve never heard that evaporation causes pinning. Only that the introduction of fresh air initiates the fruiting process in mycelium. That doesnβt mean itβs the only important factor for healthy pins.
Why does pf tek pin then
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nektar61
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: Screwup] 1
#28376662 - 06/27/23 03:11 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Screwup said: Why does pf tek pin then
Explained in relative terms (about shrooms, not specifically PF Tek) above by several people, but: humidity, FAE, light, genetics, a shroom needing to fruit and release spores.
Humidity can accompany evaporation, but doesn't require evaporation. See my post about Marthas above.
See my post above about shrooms, not pins, being the goal.
Most of the original very old posts about evaporation triggering pinning are referring to PF Tek, because that was the main tek back then. There's a lot of talk in those posts about fanning grows to increase this needed evaporation too.
EDIT: oh, Screwup, you're replying to someone whose posts I can't see. haha.
Screwup I had you on ignore for a while, after you were horrible to someone many months ago, but I un-ingnored you, because you truly are a reformed troll.
Edited by nektar61 (06/27/23 03:17 PM)
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Chamo
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: Screwup] 1
#28376664 - 06/27/23 03:11 PM (1 year, 6 months ago) |
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It is one pinning trigger. Not the only one. Light and full colonization could explain that. Even a contam can cause early pinning.
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