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Offlinenektar61S
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Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? * 5
    #28376288 - 06/27/23 09:12 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

I hear this a lot, but don't see evidence of it. I think it might be something that used to be said and is parroted but I've never seen it. I've seen the same pinning whether I encourage or discourage evaporation.

Using advanced search to find posts older than 15 years old and less than 25 years old, with the words
evaporation
trigger
pin


You get posts talking about PF tek and mentioning the need to FAN a grow, and some talking about using pumps to pump air into your "fruiting chamber" to force evaporation.

Fanning, pumps, and fruiting chambers are discredited tek that no great growers use now.

The oldest mention on here of pinning being triggered by evaporation (from 21 years and 4 months ago) is on a thread someone quoting Paul Stamets, a guy who is known to make shit up and state it as fact. He still recommends using gypsum.
thread:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/537665#537665
post (about Azures)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/388889#388889

People say "well, you get shrooms in the field after it rains and then doesn't for a day, so there is evaporation" but

--Shrooms grow more in fields around grass, which can trap moisture in the air and prevent evaporation

--A field grow is not a tub grow. If you want a field grow at home, throw unpasteurized cow shit in a tub, sprinkle spores, drown in water, then leave the lid off, in the sun.

--Some of the evaporation in a field is coming from puddles, not from the ground, and once the air is saturated with moisture, it can't take in more water until the RH lowers.

I think "evaporation triggers pinning" might be an old thing that people say with no observation to back it up, just something people parrot. It might be bullshit.

We really should be on the lookout for non-truths propagated in shrooms.

No experienced grower is probably going to say "fan your grow"

But some experienced growers will say "You need separate fruiting conditions, different from growing conditions" which is bullshit with cubes.

It's something that's been parroted for a long time. You can have a good grow DESPITE it, but it's not needed.

Same thing as how a handful of TCs and great growers here insist on using gypsum. They grow good shrooms despite it, but it's not needed. But they think it's needed because they've always used it.

We can say from observation "If you don't PC your grain, you'll probably get contam", and "agar is useful to clean up contam."

But I can't say from observation that "evaporation is a trigger for pinning" in home grows.

I also think that saying it without being able to back it up looks like someone trying to be smart without being able to back it up.

Edited by nektar61 (06/27/23 02:49 PM)

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Invisiblemushhead
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: nektar61] * 1
    #28376292 - 06/27/23 09:19 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

:threadmonitor:


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OfflineLand TroutM
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: nektar61] * 2
    #28376293 - 06/27/23 09:19 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Great question, and something I’ve thought about also. I can’t say I’ve heard it emphasized by too many recently but was one of the things I constantly read when I was first learning(both cultivation and how to search on here).
I haven’t heard it disproven.

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OfflineSmellyhobbitM
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: Land Trout] * 2
    #28376297 - 06/27/23 09:25 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

So how would we run tests? Get an established clone and run tubs side by side, sealed and with FAE? We know FAE is a must because cubes breathe, but otherwise how do we mitigate evaporation to discern whether or not it’s a pinning trigger?

One thing to think about is that, whether or not it really is or isn’t a pinning trigger, evaporation is going to happen with FAE isn’t it?

Maybe a Martha tent would be a good tool. Quick someone with a large scale commercial grow should drop everything and switch to cubes for a day haha

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Offlinenektar61S
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: Land Trout]
    #28376300 - 06/27/23 09:27 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Land Trout said:
Great question, and something I’ve thought about also. I can’t say I’ve heard it emphasized by too many recently but was one of the things I constantly read when I was first learning(both cultivation and how to search on here).
I haven’t heard it disproven.




Was part of what you were reading books that were published more than ten years ago?

If it was reading on here, do you keep your tek searches to the last 5 or 6 years? A lot of things older than that are from the dark ages of shroom growing and not done anymore. Like coffee and gypsum.

Did you hear people recommending coffee and gypsum in non-PF Tek grows?

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OfflineLand TroutM
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: nektar61] * 1
    #28376330 - 06/27/23 09:47 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Pretty much, what I meant by learning was learning how to search on here and learning these fungi are simple enough that more hands off approaches produced better.
The organism is the best teacher🤓

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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: Smellyhobbit] * 3
    #28376334 - 06/27/23 09:52 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Smellyhobbit said:
So how would we run tests? ...



We don't.

Science doesn't have to prove a negative.

I think we stop saying "evaporation is a trigger for pinning" the same way we don't say "adding coffee grinds and gypsum to substrate is helpful." Or "using a Martha is the best way to grow shrooms." 

Then if anyone claims that "evaporation is a trigger for pinning" IS true, the burden of proof is on THEM to prove it.

Otherwise they're just someone parroting something they can't prove or even explain, just to try to sound smart....Just to have something to say and be able to join a conversation.

I think Marthas already disprove it. If you keep air at full RH, shrooms still grow (so does mold and bacteria, but shrooms do too.) And on the other end of the scale, I've seen photos here of shrooms that grew in an un-watered tub forgotten with no lid on it.

Plins grow in sealed agar plates. There isn't always evaporation in a sealed plate. There is if you see condensation, but you see plins even without condensation.

We can prove other gems around here. It's easy to prove that if you don't PC your grain, you'll get contam. It's easy to prove that agar is useful for transferring away from contam.

Running reliable scientific tests to test the "evaporation is a trigger for pinning" thesis would be difficult. How do you provide evaporation in one tub, and take it away in another, while keeping the FAE, oxygen, and carbon dioxide the same. Also keeping the temp the same. Or at least accounting for it. Evaporation lowers the temp of the thing it's evaporating away from.

It probably would require those outdated fish tank air pumps people used to fan their PF Tek grows and "shotgun fruiting chambers" here during the George W. Bush presidency.

Edited by nektar61 (06/27/23 10:45 AM)

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OfflineTri
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: nektar61] * 2
    #28376377 - 06/27/23 10:30 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

"does evaporation trigger pinning in Coprophilous pan-tropical species of fungi, such as Psilocybe Cubensis?"


"There is no evidence to suggest that evaporation triggers pinning in Coprophilous pan-tropical species of fungi, such as Psilocybe Cubensis. Pinning, which refers to the formation of mushroom fruiting bodies, is a complex process influenced by various factors such as temperature, humidity, and nutrient availability. While evaporation can affect humidity levels, it is not the sole determinant of pinning. Research on the pinning process in fungi has primarily focused on the role of environmental factors and genetic regulation. Therefore, it is important to consider multiple factors when studying the pinning behavior of fungi."

"what are the most crucial known pinning triggers for Coprophilous pan-tropical species of fungi, such as Psilocybe Cubensis?"


"The most crucial known pinning triggers for Coprophilous pan-tropical species of fungi, such as Psilocybe Cubensis, are not explicitly mentioned in the provided references. However, pinning in fungi is generally influenced by various factors such as temperature, humidity, nutrient availability, and genetic regulation (Lee et al., 2015). Environmental factors, including temperature and humidity, play a significant role in triggering the pinning process (Zhu et al., 2008). Additionally, the presence of specific associations with other fungi, such as saprotrophic non-Rhizoctonia fungi, can also impact pinning behavior (Lee et al., 2015). It is important to note that pinning triggers may vary among different species and environmental conditions. Further research is needed to specifically identify the pinning triggers for Coprophilous pan-tropical species of fungi."

A convo with scite.ai for what its worth.

from my perspective it boils down to pinning needs humidity, rain/evaporation cause humidity. so while it might not be accurate to say pinning needs evaporation, transitive property :shrug:


--------------------
𝕴𝖋 𝕴 𝖍𝖆𝖛𝖊 𝖘𝖊𝖊𝖓 𝖋𝖚𝖗𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖎𝖘 𝖇𝖞 𝖘𝖙𝖆𝖓𝖉𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖚𝖕𝖔𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖘𝖍𝖔𝖚𝖑𝖉𝖊𝖗𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝕲𝖎𝖆𝖓𝖙𝖘

Edited by Tri (06/27/23 10:31 AM)

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Offlinenektar61S
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: Tri] * 2
    #28376388 - 06/27/23 10:39 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tri-Polar said:
from my perspective it boils down to pinning needs humidity, rain/evaporation cause humidity. so while it might not be accurate to say pinning needs evaporation, transitive property :shrug:



I was thinking something along these lines.

Also:
"rain/evaporation cause humidity"
is true. But
"humidity/evaporation causes rain"
is also true.

It's a viscous cycle. Shrooms within shrooms.

Last year one time when I was tripping I had a long drawn-out flash of "someday I will die but it's OK because I was, am, and will be part of the carbon cycle."

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OfflineTri
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: nektar61] * 2
    #28376391 - 06/27/23 10:41 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Lmao blessings be to the cycles of life :rofl:


--------------------
𝕴𝖋 𝕴 𝖍𝖆𝖛𝖊 𝖘𝖊𝖊𝖓 𝖋𝖚𝖗𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖎𝖘 𝖇𝖞 𝖘𝖙𝖆𝖓𝖉𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖚𝖕𝖔𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖘𝖍𝖔𝖚𝖑𝖉𝖊𝖗𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝕲𝖎𝖆𝖓𝖙𝖘

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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: Tri]
    #28376401 - 06/27/23 10:48 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tri-Polar said:
Lmao blessings be to the cycles of life :rofl:




Some form of this shit just has to be happening somewhere else.

I think people who see UFOs usually want to, and should lay off the heroic doses.

But the Universe is a vast fucking place. There has to be something growing with a blessed ammonia cycle and dual suns within a thousand light years or so.

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OfflineTri
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: nektar61]
    #28376409 - 06/27/23 10:54 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

nektar61 said:
Quote:

Tri-Polar said:
Lmao blessings be to the cycles of life :rofl:




Some form of this shit just has to be happening somewhere else.

I think people who see UFOs usually want to, and should lay off the heroic doses.

But the Universe is a vast fucking place. There has to be something growing with a blessed ammonia cycle within a thousand light years or so.




I'll tell you what and you can choose to believe me or not :biggrin:

:ancientaliens:


--------------------
𝕴𝖋 𝕴 𝖍𝖆𝖛𝖊 𝖘𝖊𝖊𝖓 𝖋𝖚𝖗𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖎𝖘 𝖇𝖞 𝖘𝖙𝖆𝖓𝖉𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖚𝖕𝖔𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖘𝖍𝖔𝖚𝖑𝖉𝖊𝖗𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝕲𝖎𝖆𝖓𝖙𝖘

Edited by Tri (06/27/23 11:17 AM)

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Offlinenektar61S
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: Tri] * 1
    #28376414 - 06/27/23 10:59 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tri-Polar said:
he gave my dad a vhs, I woke up at night walked out of my room, and saw like 2 minutes of video of like CCTV ufo's flying out of the ocean and shit, that haunted me for the next decade




I saw that same movie in a theater, triple feature with the Bigfoot movie and the Atlantis movie, all from the same "documentary" film company.

OK, let's un-hijack this thread please. Unless you have proof that ancient aliens figured out how to cause pinning without evaporation or humidity.

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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: nektar61]
    #28376446 - 06/27/23 11:23 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

nektar61 said:
OK, let's un-hijack this thread please




Heard,
Seems like you can't really seperate evaporation from humidity, so what is the goal you're working towards?  To change the language to "humidity causes pinning" rather than "evaporation causes pinning"?


--------------------
𝕴𝖋 𝕴 𝖍𝖆𝖛𝖊 𝖘𝖊𝖊𝖓 𝖋𝖚𝖗𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖎𝖘 𝖇𝖞 𝖘𝖙𝖆𝖓𝖉𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖚𝖕𝖔𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖘𝖍𝖔𝖚𝖑𝖉𝖊𝖗𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝕲𝖎𝖆𝖓𝖙𝖘

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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: Smellyhobbit]
    #28376455 - 06/27/23 11:30 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

That is how I have also understood it Hobbit.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323851155_Influences_of_environmental_factors_on_fruiting_body_induction_development_and_maturation_in_mushroom-forming_fungi


“Mushroom-forming fungi (restricted to basidiomycetous fungi in this review) differentiate by sensing several environmental factors for fruiting body formation. For fruiting body induction, nutrient, temperature and light conditions are critical environmental factors. Higher nitrogen and carbon sources in the media will suppress fruiting body induction in many mushroom-forming fungi, with induction being triggered by lower nitrogen and carbon concentrations. Low temperature or temperature downshift is another critical influencing factor for fruiting body induction in many cultivated mushrooms, such as Flammulina velutipes, Lentinula edodes, and Volvariella volvacea. Fungal response toward starvation and cold involves the production of sexual spores as the next generation. Species like F. velutipes and Coprinopsis cinerea can form fruiting bodies in the dark; however, light accelerates fruiting body induction in some mushroom-forming fungi. Remarkably, fruiting bodies formed in the dark have tiny or no pileus on heads (called dark stipe, pinhead fruiting body, or etiolated stipe). Light is essential for pileus differentiation in many, but not all mushroom species; one exception is Agaricus bisporus. Mushrooms have positive phototropism and negative gravitropism for effective dispersal of spores. Carbon dioxide concentrations also affect fruiting body development; pileus differentiation is suppressed at a high concentration of carbon dioxide. Thus, the pileus differentiation system of mushrooms may allow the most effective diffusion of spores. Full expansion of the pileus is followed by pileus autolysis or senescence. In C. cinerea, pileus autolysis occurs during spore diffusion. Fruiting body senescence, browning of gill, and softening occur after harvesting in several mushroom species. Fruiting body induction, development, and maturation in mushroom-forming fungi are discussed in this review.”

I think maybe it is less about evaporation and more about lowering the CO2 levels with FAE.  And as you said that evaporation naturally comes with it

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Invisiblemushhead
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: Tri] * 3
    #28376460 - 06/27/23 11:33 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

I believe that evaporation is an essential part of the pinning process because it shows that a proper FAE cycle is being kept.
It's not essential to pinning itself but essential to bring forward the environment required for pinning and fruiting.
We set up a water tub expecting that the water within the tub will evaporate, hopefully slowly, and create a humid environment for our cakes.
We expect that the coir we use, if properly hydrated, not only provides enough water for the fungus but also evaporates as the fungus grows/fruits to help maintain fruiting conditions.
I'm not a "fanboy" and I don't ever fan my tubs, I allow FAE and evaporation to create the conditions that will favor my cubes.

EDIT: Fixed spelling mistake.


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Edited by mushhead (06/27/23 11:49 AM)

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Offlinenektar61S
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: Tri] * 1
    #28376487 - 06/27/23 11:49 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tri-Polar said:
what is the goal you're working towards?  To change the language to "humidity causes pinning" rather than "evaporation causes pinning"?




No. My goal is to encourage people to stop saying things to noobs that don't help and might be wrong. (and to encourage noobs to stop saying this too).

Even if it is right, most of the time people say it it doesn't add anything to the conversation.

It is 100% NOT something you need to know to grow shrooms.

Most of the time I see it said, it serves the same or less important place in conversation than saying any of these:

"Money can't buy happiness."

"Some things never change."

"It's the journey not the destination that matters."

"Everything happens for a reason."

If it is true, I'd like someone who says it to prove it. Almost every other part of current shroom tek can be proven as useful and correct.

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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: nektar61] * 2
    #28376490 - 06/27/23 11:54 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Well honestly I say we do away with the whole evaporation causes pinning because that is simply not true.
Evaporation is a cog within the machine that we call fruiting.
Pinning is to the end of that process where as before any pinning can happen the proper environmental conditions need to be met.
Ergo through evaporation, we create our micro-climate, and this induces fruiting because the conditions favor it.
Sure the mushroom will still give fruits if these conditions are not optimal, such as giving off fruits while the container is open without holding RH.


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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: mushhead] * 1
    #28376492 - 06/27/23 11:56 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

So creating a micro climate that also includes and provides evaporation causes pinning?


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Invisiblemushhead
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Re: Is "evaporation triggers pinning" bullshit? [Re: Screwup] * 1
    #28376495 - 06/27/23 12:02 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Screwup said:
So creating a micro climate that also includes and provides evaporation causes pinning?



:whathesaid:
If the dominoes aren't in place correctly, they wont fall as you design.


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Edited by mushhead (06/27/23 12:15 PM)

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