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OfflineGlomus
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Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates
    #28374489 - 06/25/23 07:28 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Does anyone have an knowledge or research about what specific Beneficial Bacteria are typically left in the sub after pasteurization? Is the reason they are ok to have in your sub because they are slower growing and don't pose a considerable threat to the myc or because they have some kind of "beneficial" synchronistic relationship with the myc? Also, has anyone experimented with adding beneficial bacteria to a sub? Such as nitrogen fixing bacteria like azospirillum? Thanks

-Glomus

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InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: Glomus] * 2
    #28374541 - 06/25/23 08:10 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

I had the exact same thought a couple years ago...

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26872959

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OfflineGlomus
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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #28374557 - 06/25/23 08:26 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Thanks for sharing this thread, I will dive into it more in depth. Very interested in anyone's research using different isolated bacteria or diversified inoculant blends.
When I started growing I noticed that some mono tubs that were made basically the same way and were being cultivated in the same room would have wildly different contamination events. One tub would become contaminated with trich before the first flush even finished and one right next to it in the same room would go on to produce 4 flushes and continue until the sub was completely spent without contamination. Why is this? I suspect that there are different bacteria that could take hold that may enhance the condition for something like trichoderma while maybe others can enhance or protect the cubes myc. Just a wild idea, but the bacterial contaminations I've dealt with have always been very interesting to me and seem understudied perhaps.

Edited by Glomus (06/25/23 08:28 PM)

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OfflineSirPsycho
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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #28374570 - 06/25/23 08:30 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stipe-n Cap said:
I had the exact same thought a couple years ago...

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26872959



Well, that was an unsatisfying read. I'm guessing you haven't really had the opportunity to do any follow up work, IIRC you've be pretty much shut down since


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OfflineTri
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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: SirPsycho]
    #28374671 - 06/25/23 11:49 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

This seems to be potentially what "DR.Myc" figured out, he sells substrate probiotics. Mentioned him a few years ago and felt a little touchy so I haven't brought it up since, but I've used 1 of his products and had good results, would be cool to do some side by sides with a clone culture, in fact im gonna add that to my list


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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: Tri]
    #28374729 - 06/26/23 01:38 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3774852/

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/341511666_Bacteria_of_the_Azospirillum_Genus_for_the_Optimization_of_the_Artificial_Culture_of_Xylotrophic_Mushrooms

There seems to be a lot of research out there for this kind of thing. I'm surprised that this isn't a practice being used more? Makes a ton of sense to me.

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OfflineGlomus
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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: Tri]
    #28374732 - 06/26/23 01:41 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

I saw the Dr. Myc thread, seems like it's full of people calling it snake oil and saying your not a good mushroom grower if you need to use this? Seems like it would be very easy to run some experiments with agar plates. Like even observe the effects that some of these bacteria have on trich in an agar plate.

By the way Tri-polar, how do you get such tight even fruiting like that in your pics? is that genetics or your fruiting/grow methods?

Edited by Glomus (06/26/23 01:45 AM)

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OfflineTri
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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: Glomus]
    #28374753 - 06/26/23 02:39 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Glomus said:
I saw the Dr. Myc thread, seems like it's full of people calling it snake oil and saying your not a good mushroom grower if you need to use this? Seems like it would be very easy to run some experiments with agar plates. Like even observe the effects that some of these bacteria have on trich in an agar plate.



I think its a struggle of TCs wanting folks to learn the fundamentals without crutches, but it can definitely feel stifling to some. Once you understand your shit its important to do informed and controlled experiments, the envelope is always waiting to be pushed!

Quote:

By the way Tri-polar, how do you get such tight even fruiting like that in your pics? is that genetics or your fruiting/grow methods?




Bof

The links in my signature + dumb luck. Im functionally dumb as fuck so if I can do it you can too!
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Invisiblealtford78
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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #28374818 - 06/26/23 04:53 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stipe-n Cap said:
I had the exact same thought a couple years ago...

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26872959




Woah, tough crowd in there. Weird vibes.

I'll be looking forward to an update, although it seems pretty complex to pull off without access to a lab for the bacterial isolation and sequencing.


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OfflineGlomus
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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: Tri]
    #28374819 - 06/26/23 04:53 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

The fundamentals of not contaminating your grian or substrate, isn't that like the whole idea of growing mushrooms lol. If I introduce this bacteria and it lowers contamination risk and it works, why wouldn't you want people to use it? It's like saying nope you suck at growing mushrooms if you use a laminar flow hood, you have to first understand the pain of many failed and contaminated runs and do it without one, cuz its a crutch.

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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: SirPsycho]
    #28374840 - 06/26/23 05:24 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SirPsycho said:
Quote:

Stipe-n Cap said:
I had the exact same thought a couple years ago...

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26872959



Well, that was an unsatisfying read. I'm guessing you haven't really had the opportunity to do any follow up work, IIRC you've be pretty much shut down since




Yep, haven't been doing much. I had some interesting possibilities that never came to fruition. Preety big in places like Japan. I can't seem to find it, but there's an award winning Eryngii farm in Japan that utilized bacterial inoculation in their spawn to produce fruits that had a snappy tecture like carrots.

Very interesting. The peanut gallery didn't seem to approve, but that was to be expected.

I just asked chatgpt:

Eryngii Farms in Japan: Bacterial Mushroom Production


User
Which Eryngii farms in Japan utilize bacteria to produce mushrooms

ChatGPT
There are several Eryngii (King Oyster Mushroom) farms in Japan that utilize bacteria to produce mushrooms. One notable example is the "Mokumoku Eryngii Farm" located in Saitama Prefecture, Japan. This farm specializes in cultivating Eryngii mushrooms using a unique cultivation method called "Bacterial Grain Spawn" or "BG Spawn."

In this method, the farm utilizes bacteria-infused grain spawn as the primary inoculant for mushroom cultivation. The bacteria help to accelerate the growth and development of the Eryngii mushrooms, resulting in high-quality and flavorful mushrooms. The Mokumoku Eryngii Farm has gained recognition for its innovative approach and commitment to sustainable farming practices.

It's important to note that there may be other Eryngii farms in Japan that also use bacteria for mushroom production, as the cultivation methods can vary between different farms and regions.

I don't have time to verify today, so I'll leave that there for folks if they want to follow up with some googling.

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OfflineTri
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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #28375128 - 06/26/23 11:27 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

For what its worth, like almost every bag I send is bacterial af. Not myc piss bacterial but definitely wet grains cream cheese fermented apple bacterial.

The bag that went to the first pic in my signature was just like that.


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Invisiblealtford78
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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: Tri] * 1
    #28375141 - 06/26/23 11:35 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)



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Offlinejungatheart
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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: altford78]
    #28375162 - 06/26/23 11:50 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

in

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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: jungatheart] * 2
    #28375213 - 06/26/23 12:22 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Everyone readimg this thread needs to keep in mind that 99.9% of bacteria is contaminant. Haphazardly introducing any ol bacteria will end in massive sorrow, perhaps crying in a hot shower. Very specific sub strains have been isolated and tested in laboratories with the intention of exposing to commercial cultures to track effects. Pretty advanced; Dr Myc is likely the willy myco of bacterial inoculation. Japanese, or any Asian laboratory will be lightyears ahead of western mushroom production technology/techniques.

The Japanese were spawning shiitake logs while proto Europeans were banging cave folk with unibrows:lol: They've got a massive head start on us.

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OfflineTri
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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #28375227 - 06/26/23 12:36 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

I remain skeptical but interested

Would be interesting for someone with a scope to see if they can identify the strains of bacteria dr. Myc is using.

Anyone can be a snake oil salesman, still worth looking into imo


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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: Tri] * 1
    #28375249 - 06/26/23 12:55 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

It doesn't work like that. You can identify species, not genetic subtype. No way to visually tell the difference between common Bacillus subtilis and Bacillus subtilis QST713, for instance.

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OfflineTri
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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 1
    #28375261 - 06/26/23 01:06 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Mm

Sad

Thanks for sharing your everflowing well of knowledge with dumbasses like me :rofl: its very helpful


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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 1
    #28375265 - 06/26/23 01:08 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stipe-n Cap said:
It doesn't work like that. You can identify species, not genetic subtype. No way to visually tell the difference between common Bacillus subtilis and Bacillus subtilis QST713, for instance.




Not that I'm aware of anyways. Even if there was (which I highly doubt), the common bedroom scope operator wouldn't be likely to possess the requisite training to do so.

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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 1
    #28375308 - 06/26/23 01:32 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

I'll light my St. Alan Rockefeller candle and pray a real mycologists looks into it πŸ™


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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #28375354 - 06/26/23 02:07 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

If anything you could use a microscope with a camera and post pictures in a microbiology forum or something on the internet. The links I posted are actual experiments that have been done in a lab setting. From my understanding there are bacteria that can suppress other bacterias, I definitely believe there is a connection to bacteria and trich, as far as some enhancing mushroom growth, it's worth experimenting.

Edited by Glomus (06/26/23 04:00 PM)

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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: Glomus]
    #28375367 - 06/26/23 02:22 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

It's definitely a thing.

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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #28375935 - 06/26/23 10:27 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

I was reading recently about how 2% of compost by weight is made up of microbes, and when you fry them that dead bacteria turns into food for mycelium. Makes me wonder about manure, as its it so highly populated with microbes.

I'm going to try some experiments with common cheap soil inoculants on agar, I have them already and why not. Starting off with ones that have a single train of bacteria in them like azospirillum. Maybe I'll dig deeper and try to find and buy some other cultures of bacteria of interest.

Edited by Glomus (06/26/23 11:08 PM)

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OfflineGlomus
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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: Glomus]
    #28376035 - 06/27/23 01:56 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)


Edited by Glomus (06/27/23 04:13 AM)

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OfflineGlomus
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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #28377321 - 06/28/23 04:20 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

You were saying that most bacteria cultures you'll find are contaminated with other bacterias and that it's difficult to isolate certain genetic subtypes?

I know this is getting into a different realm of microbiology but I feel like this forum is the place for innovation with P cubensis specifically.  I've asked Chat GPT and it says, pseudomonas fluorescens and pituda/ Bacillus Subtilis/ Rhizobacteria like rhizobium/ azospirillum and surprisingly streptomyces are the most promising bacterias of interest for mushroom cultivation.

I recently keep hearing about Rondo Pseudomonas as a new innovation in the cannabis cultivation world, recent research on pseudomonas strains is fascinating. There is a whole system of microbes not only in the root systems and soil, but on and within the plants going on.

Edited by Glomus (06/28/23 04:24 AM)

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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: Glomus] * 1
    #28377357 - 06/28/23 05:46 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

The problem isn't the mixing of separate species of bacteria (although this certainly poses a separate problem on it's own), the problem here is that within a single species most strains of that species are detrimental to the health of the culture. Isolation of specific sub strains have to be isolated from the mycelial plane of cultures effected by beneficial bacteria as outlined in my post, linked above.

Here:

Quote:

This article is a perfect example of the process used to identify and isolate symbiotic bacteria from any species of mycelia.

https://academic.oup.com/femsle/article/218/2/271/530921

"Bacteria were collected from cultures of P. ostreatus following mushroom production on samples of composted and noncomposted cotton plant waste products. Samples were selected from spent culture medium that had previously produced either high or low yields and the microorganisms were classified into four groups (C-H, C-L, NC-H, and NC-L) according to whether they had been isolated from composted (C) or noncomposted (NC) plant waste, with, high (H) or low (L) yields."

The selected species in this case was P. ostreatus, however it could have easily been Pan. Cyanescens with samples taken from spent composted manure substrate rather than spent composted cotton...

"Other cultures of bacteria were obtained by direct sampling of mycelia produced in composted waste cotton, and were collected after the first harvest of P. ostreatus at 3 to 7 cm depth below the surface of the mushroom culture medium. The mycelia were carefully isolated by hand, using tweezers.."

Ten colonies of fluorescent Pseudomonas were selected and isolated from the mycelial plane of P. ostreatus.

P. ostreatus were grown on TSB agar with each bacteria bacterial To observe the effects of selected fluorescent pseudomonad cultures on growth of axenic cultures of mycelium.

The result:

Inoculation with fluorescent Pseudomonas spp. significantly promoted the development of the mycelium of P. ostreatus, the formation of primordia, and the development of P. ostreatus basidiome.

Hypothesis:

It is likely that the Psilocybe producing Coprophilous/Saprotrophic species have similar relationships with the bacteria in their respective substrates. Isolating those bacteria and Understanding their effect on health and growth will greatly advance our understanding of these species.

The composted substrates used to grow exotic Coprophilous and Saprotrophic species are the best candidate's for investigation into which bacteria form beneficial partnerships with their respective mycelial colonies as shown above.

Most of that process is out of the reach of most growers without lab connections,
however if using the sampling scheme above, one could collect samples from within the spent manure/wood substrate and attempt to grow out some colonies on agar:
Once colonies form, streak to new plates to be sent away for sequencing. This will at least tell you whats in the substrate. Isolating those bacteria and culturing them separately on agar to observe the interactions between them and mycelium on agar, well, this is an entirely different problem that will need to be solved. 




Excerpt from this post:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26872959

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OfflineGlomus
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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #28378503 - 06/29/23 01:35 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Interesting so taking sample from say a monotub that happen to perform exceptionally well could be worth studying. What if there was a simpler way to create the right growing condition for those specific bacterias to thrive in. Or save your old substrate, that performed extraordinary, and "inoculate" that into all your tubs when preparing your pasteurized substrate or something. kind of like bacteria pheno hunting.

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Re: Beneficial bacteria in pasteurized substrates [Re: Glomus] * 1
    #28378613 - 06/29/23 05:55 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

No, this doesn't apply to coir. Coir is an inert hydroponics medium. This sampling  protocol would be limited to composted manures or any other substrate which contains a microbial community requiring pasteurization.

I don't want to dissuade anyone but this is an advanced sampling protocol requiring microscopy, elite level aseptic technique, and communication with a bacteriology lab.  I provide a link to send bacterial colonies for identification.

Give it a go if you're interested, but, the lab will not be interested in working with folks running clandestine "mycology" work....if you know what I mean.



Cubes grow like weeds in just about any environment. This would be better applied to more exotic, difficult to fruit species which are more likely to require microbes for healthy development.

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