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InvisibleYuggoth
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Registered: 03/04/23
Posts: 558
Loc: Lost Carcosa
Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Greg] * 1
    #28363873 - 06/17/23 10:51 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Thank you for the update!


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We have not succeeded in answering all our problems. The answers we have found only serve to raise a whole set of new questions. In some ways we feel we are as confused as ever, but we believe we are confused on a higher level and about more important things. -- Earl C. Kelley

Things I really wish I knew when I started // Vacuum sealer discussion thread // Shroomery gif zoo

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OfflineTri
Paramecium Brain
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Registered: 08/23/18
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Yuggoth]
    #28363959 - 06/18/23 02:37 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Lots of factors we don't know of course but very surprised no one has mentioned the likelihood of PsiL denaturing when exposed to dehydrator temps (160f). seems that denaturing the enzymes responsible for the cascade reaction would lock in potency to a degree


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𝕴𝖋 𝕴 π–π–†π–›π–Š π–˜π–Šπ–Šπ–“ π–‹π–šπ–—π–™π–π–Šπ–— π–Žπ–™ π–Žπ–˜ π–‡π–ž π–˜π–™π–†π–“π–‰π–Žπ–“π–Œ π–šπ–•π–”π–“ π–™π–π–Š π–˜π–π–”π–šπ–‘π–‰π–Šπ–—π–˜ 𝖔𝖋 π•²π–Žπ–†π–“π–™π–˜

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OfflineLongtimenosee
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Registered: 12/05/22
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Tri] * 1
    #28364225 - 06/18/23 10:31 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

It has been established that in long term storage high temps or freezing temps result in faster degradation of Psilocybin then room temp. Also, oxygen exposure has been found to result in faster degradation of Psilocybin. Additionally light has been found to result in faster degradation of Psilocybin.
That being said it seams like drying at room temperature, in a dark vacuum would retain the most potency. For storage it seams like and opaque, vacuum sealed package, kept at room temprature would be best.

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InvisiblefahtsterM
Now With 33%More Faht
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Longtimenosee] * 3
    #28364311 - 06/18/23 12:06 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

I store my vac sealed fruits in a freezer and they retain potency just fine.  Had year old fruits not long ago that were just as potent as when I sealed em

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OfflineLongtimenosee
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: fahtster]
    #28364769 - 06/18/23 09:03 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Here is my primary reference for my statements on preservation of tryptamine's-

Stability of psilocybin and its four analogs in the biomass of the psychotropic mushroom Psilocybe cubensis
KlΓ‘ra GotvaldovΓ‘, KateΕ™ina HΓ‘jkovΓ‘, Jan Borovička, Radek Jurok, Petra CihlΓ‘Ε™ovΓ‘, Martin KuchaΕ™
First published: 29 October 2020




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OfflineTri
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Longtimenosee]
    #28364833 - 06/18/23 10:50 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

that temp chart in addition to the likelihood of denaturing the enzymes really solidifies the dehydrator against all debate imo


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𝕴𝖋 𝕴 π–π–†π–›π–Š π–˜π–Šπ–Šπ–“ π–‹π–šπ–—π–™π–π–Šπ–— π–Žπ–™ π–Žπ–˜ π–‡π–ž π–˜π–™π–†π–“π–‰π–Žπ–“π–Œ π–šπ–•π–”π–“ π–™π–π–Š π–˜π–π–”π–šπ–‘π–‰π–Šπ–—π–˜ 𝖔𝖋 π•²π–Žπ–†π–“π–™π–˜

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InvisibleAnon888
Registered: 11/19/22
Posts: 80
Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: 7Suns]
    #28373454 - 06/24/23 10:02 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Re: Bag Appeal

Wattage of the dehydrator may play a role here.

The Nesco owner's manual states to dry mushroom by pre-drying them at 95Β°F for 2–3 hours before raising temp to 125Β°F for 4–10 hours or until dry. This is for looks and preserving the shape of the mushroom

When I was using an old 500w Nesco, it dried my shrooms fine on 160Β°F. The caps were decently golden colored. This was also an old dehydrator I had used on and off for years and it may or may not have been as powerful as when new.

However, when I upgraded to the 700w square tray Nesco (FD-80), 160Β°F seemed to brown my caps quite a bit but if I kept heat at 145Β°F, they were ok and more golden. Sometimes I started them off at 125Β°F and then went up to 145Β°F

Now I have the 1000w Nesco "Gardenmaster" Pro (FD-1010) with the fan on the bottom. This is the most powerful one, highest capacity (30 trays) and certainly has the most powerful fan and air flow design, even compared to their 1000w digital model with fan at the top (only 20 trays).  Someone on the forums reported it (FD-1010) had warped their 2 bottom trays at 130Β°F on for 22 hours in 2013 and blamed it on the mushrooms having already been long dry by then, speculating it wouldn't have happened if the trays were full of wet shrooms.

(edit: update)  The FD-1010 is at least twice as loud at the lesser Nesco dehydrators but has amazing airflow.  I don't fear warping or burning at all, it actually seems to dry better on 160Β°F than my lesser watt units with less browning and better bag appeal.  If noise is an issue and you want the timer, then go for the digital 1000w (FD-1040) with fan on the top, though the fan isn't as powerful as the FD-1010

While unrelated to dehydrators, I will state that my most discerning people do not want broken veils. They insist on unopened caps purely for bag appeal. I've been left holding the bag before because I picked everything after veil break and had to unload at a discount to a chocolate bar man who didn't care about bag appeal as he was going to powder them anyway.

Re: Potency

Regarding Penis Envy or other very fat "choad" varieties: it is important to keep drying even after they *seem* to be cracker dry. You can turn the heat way down low if leaving it over night or keep it on high and just give it a few more hours if you're awake and watching it.

Some have reported that when they switched to fat varieties such as PE, they went stale faster even with jar storage and desiccant bags. It's better to give them a little bit of extra time to be absolutely sure they are 100% dry as even 95% dry (for example) may be enough moisture to speed up oxidation without you even realizing it. They may feel cracker dry but if you're unsure, just keep them in the dryer for a few more hours on medium or high, or another 12 hours on low or medium, depending on size and thickness of the mushrooms as well as the wattage of your dehydrator

One APE grower on another forum says he always dries for 48 hours on 160Β°F to make certain they are 100% dry with no noticeable potency loss. He did not state the specific dehydrator he used and so this may be fine for a 500w dehydrator but perhaps not OK for a 1000w dehydrator as trays may warp and other possible dangers

Edited by Anon888 (07/02/23 09:50 AM)

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InvisiblePickle Rick
Gherkin
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 07/24/22
Posts: 866
Loc: Jar
Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Anon888]
    #28373553 - 06/25/23 12:29 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

so, in terms of degradation, is moisture the main cause, or oxygen? Would silica work for long term storage or should food grade oxygen absorbers be considered? 

in contrast to people who like the taste of mushrooms, I am not a huge fan. furthermore as someone who has issues consuming large amounts, its something i'd like to avoid - spending your trip on the toilet is less desirable. I think isolating for potency and aiming to retain as much of that potency is a worthy cause.

also, beef - you're awesome


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P i c k l e    R i c k :dancer:



Pick Rick's Mushroom Chocolate

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InvisibleBaba Yaga
Psychedelic Minion

Registered: 09/13/20
Posts: 4,496
Loc: Try 'n' Error Boot Camp
Trusted Cultivator
Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Longtimenosee] * 1
    #28373578 - 06/25/23 01:18 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Longtimenosee said:
Here is my primary reference for my statements on preservation of tryptamine's-

Stability of psilocybin and its four analogs in the biomass of the psychotropic mushroom Psilocybe cubensis
KlΓ‘ra GotvaldovΓ‘, KateΕ™ina HΓ‘jkovΓ‘, Jan Borovička, Radek Jurok, Petra CihlΓ‘Ε™ovΓ‘, Martin KuchaΕ™
First published: 29 October 2020









I can't exactly remember what they did in their trials but I read it twice when it got published. Only read it twice because I thought their study was flawed and not really conclusive. So I read it again and was still disappointed with their work. I actually think the statements they make are pretty much useless or let's say not any better than anecdotal reports.

Edited by Baba Yaga (06/25/23 01:26 AM)

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OfflineRoscoeReturnsS
Crotchety chode man
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Registered: 02/12/18
Posts: 2,141
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Pickle Rick] * 2
    #28373722 - 06/25/23 06:11 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Pickle Rick said:
so, in terms of degradation, is moisture the main cause, or oxygen? Would silica work for long term storage or should food grade oxygen absorbers be considered? 

in contrast to people who like the taste of mushrooms, I am not a huge fan. furthermore as someone who has issues consuming large amounts, its something i'd like to avoid - spending your trip on the toilet is less desirable. I think isolating for potency and aiming to retain as much of that potency is a worthy cause.

also, beef - you're awesome




The oxidation reactions that degrades potency require both oxygen and moisture. Keeping them as dry as possible will mitigate the effects of any residual oxygen. Most oxygen absorbers need some moisture to work, so if you store dry fruit in an airtight jar the oxygen absorbers may never really do anything.

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OfflineGrungeman17
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Registered: 05/06/09
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: RoscoeReturns]
    #28373770 - 06/25/23 07:16 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

This threadmade me smile, I had people (mods) flat out say dehydrators were never really a point of contention or have been a thing of dialog in the community and mostly people wanting to blame their weak batches on dehydrators. I know how I feel about them, and that is I dont...I don't care how you wanna dry your shrooms and will not push anybody in any direction. But its my personal belief that "rapid drying" not heat itself per se, but the rapidness at which you draw out moisture may have an effect. I prefer a 2 step fan and desiccant chamber setup to a more convenient and straight forward dehydrator. I wont risk my harvest in one. It works great for some people and their product, I had some weird results along time back using them. Its been a long point of contention though thats for damn sure. Do what works for you.


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Edited by Grungeman17 (06/25/23 07:17 AM)

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InvisibleTheStallionMang
I nvr said I was afraid of dying
Male

Registered: 10/18/17
Posts: 5,591
Loc: Flag
Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Grungeman17] * 1
    #28374311 - 06/25/23 04:24 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Heat will degrade psilocybin but not at dehydrator temps
Making tea is an approved method of consumption and boiling gets it to 212 degrees F.  No dehydrators get that hot so clearly they aren't causing potency loss

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OfflineGrungeman17
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: TheStallionMang]
    #28375049 - 06/26/23 09:51 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

You clearly didnt read at all what I stated. I don't believe "heat" is the culprit. Its the rapid drying action the dehydrators force. It works relatively fast. I think the purging may effect somethings, sometimes... I dont think its getting to hot. People are possibly focused on the wrong dynamics. Dehydrators work for some people. I feel that they messed with some of my older batches. And choose to stay away. I know that if I produce bunk shrooms that its not a dehydrators fault. Thats the hill ill die on. Im sure theres 50 members thats used them fine. And there is...but theres been s9me weirdo instances aswell. My opinion is it has to do with "fast drying" not heat itself.


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InvisibleTheStallionMang
I nvr said I was afraid of dying
Male

Registered: 10/18/17
Posts: 5,591
Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Grungeman17]
    #28375065 - 06/26/23 10:23 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

My bad. Yeah I missed that part
Everybody’s gotta do what works best for them

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Offlinejacbpdx
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Registered: 06/11/08
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: 7Suns] * 2
    #28375151 - 06/26/23 11:43 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

As someone who lives in OR, where lab  testing is available for alkaloids what I can state unequivocally is that either β€˜every individual mushroom is different’  or the β€˜the equipment the labs use are inaccurate’. We’ve had every scenario lab tested and results are all over.  Spore grown, LC, live tissue clone, some dehydrator dried, some air dried, some fresh, all different growing mediums. Even had fruits tested that were taken from clone grown in same tray literally millimeters apart and some tested totally differently in alkaloid content. Those are all thjngs I  KNOW!!!

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OfflineTri
Paramecium Brain
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: jacbpdx]
    #28375153 - 06/26/23 11:45 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

jacbpdx said:
As someone who lives in OR, where lab  testing is available for alkaloids what I can state unequivocally is that either β€˜every individual mushroom is different’  or the β€˜the equipment the labs use are inaccurate’. We’ve had every scenario lab tested and results are all over.  Spore grown, LC, live tissue clone, some dehydrator dried, some air dried, some fresh, all different growing mediums. Even had fruits tested that were taken from clone grown in same tray literally millimeters apart and some tested totally differently in alkaloid content. Those are all thjngs I  KNOW!!!




But have you done so with an isolated strain? Like from 2 spores


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𝕴𝖋 𝕴 π–π–†π–›π–Š π–˜π–Šπ–Šπ–“ π–‹π–šπ–—π–™π–π–Šπ–— π–Žπ–™ π–Žπ–˜ π–‡π–ž π–˜π–™π–†π–“π–‰π–Žπ–“π–Œ π–šπ–•π–”π–“ π–™π–π–Š π–˜π–π–”π–šπ–‘π–‰π–Šπ–—π–˜ 𝖔𝖋 π•²π–Žπ–†π–“π–™π–˜

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Offlinejacbpdx
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Tri]
    #28375163 - 06/26/23 11:50 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

We’ve done it from clone which should theoretically give almost exact same results. 2 different spores can give you a multitude of different results and would serve ineffective

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OfflineTri
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Registered: 08/23/18
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: jacbpdx]
    #28375176 - 06/26/23 12:01 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

As far as I understand, and may a TC correct me of I'm wrong, but clone cultures are much more genetically diverse than a single strain.

Clones can still have the genetic information of thousands of different spores and strains that fused in the myc whereas a single strain from 2 parent spores will not, and will behave much more consistent


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𝕴𝖋 𝕴 π–π–†π–›π–Š π–˜π–Šπ–Šπ–“ π–‹π–šπ–—π–™π–π–Šπ–— π–Žπ–™ π–Žπ–˜ π–‡π–ž π–˜π–™π–†π–“π–‰π–Žπ–“π–Œ π–šπ–•π–”π–“ π–™π–π–Š π–˜π–π–”π–šπ–‘π–‰π–Šπ–—π–˜ 𝖔𝖋 π•²π–Žπ–†π–“π–™π–˜

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Offlinejacbpdx
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: Tri]
    #28375185 - 06/26/23 12:06 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Yes…you are incorrect on that. But now you won’t be moving forward.

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OfflineTri
Paramecium Brain
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Registered: 08/23/18
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Re: dehydration and potency myths [Re: jacbpdx]
    #28375188 - 06/26/23 12:09 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

jacbpdx said:
Yes…you are incorrect on that. But now you won’t be moving forward.




Incorrect about which part?

That 2 parent spores will create a strain with less genetic diversity than a clone culture?

And now I won't be moving forward? What are you on about?


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𝕴𝖋 𝕴 π–π–†π–›π–Š π–˜π–Šπ–Šπ–“ π–‹π–šπ–—π–™π–π–Šπ–— π–Žπ–™ π–Žπ–˜ π–‡π–ž π–˜π–™π–†π–“π–‰π–Žπ–“π–Œ π–šπ–•π–”π–“ π–™π–π–Š π–˜π–π–”π–šπ–‘π–‰π–Šπ–—π–˜ 𝖔𝖋 π•²π–Žπ–†π–“π–™π–˜

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