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OfflineYeetusdeetus
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Registered: 11/23/19
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Re: The Western Diet [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #28380227 - 06/30/23 01:48 PM (6 months, 26 days ago)

I think one of the bigger problems of processed foods and especially simple carbs is that while they can negate stress for a little while, they create a surge of feel good neurotransmitters. Then when the time rolls around tomorrow when you’re normally experiencing life stress you’re also experiencing what are effectively “withdrawal” stress on top of whatever else is bugging you which makes way more likely to “use”.

Obviously there’s all the microbiome stuff that makes it all way more complicated. Which is why CICO is such a destructive mindset imo. Many believe you can eat 2000 calories in bread and soda and still be as healthy as someone who eats the same caloric amount in veg and meat


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Registered: 05/30/21
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Re: The Western Diet [Re: Yeetusdeetus]
    #28384057 - 07/03/23 06:16 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
hard to chicken and egg the whole McDonalds and Nestle empires - what caused what, but the whole basis of our economy (and freemarket diet) deserves some fresh eyes
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/16/business/neoliberalism-free-market-research.html




Meat is not inherently bad, but when we treat our animals this way, I can't imagine they're very good to eat.



One can get sick just looking at it, and MOST meat is made this way. Can eating a very sick animal really promote health?


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OfflineJoh.Ke
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Registered: 07/03/23
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Last seen: 50 minutes, 7 seconds
Re: The Western Diet [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28384239 - 07/03/23 09:51 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

CreonAntigone said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
hard to chicken and egg the whole McDonalds and Nestle empires - what caused what, but the whole basis of our economy (and freemarket diet) deserves some fresh eyes
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/16/business/neoliberalism-free-market-research.html




Meat is not inherently bad, but when we treat our animals this way, I can't imagine they're very good to eat.



One can get sick just looking at it, and MOST meat is made this way. Can eating a very sick animal really promote health?




Well, to be the devil's advocate:  we all gag at the thought of eating an animal that has died from cancer, and especially gross is the thought of eating its lump of cancerous growth.  However, once you cook that lump properly, it really is not that different from healthy cooked flesh, right?  I mean they are both protein.  I think it's purely down to the psychological factor.


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Registered: 05/21/20
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Re: The Western Diet [Re: Joh.Ke]
    #28384255 - 07/03/23 10:35 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

I ate 95% raw vegan for a couple of years and felt so vigorous and healthy it was addictive. 5% of the time I would backslide and devour some Mexican food or pizza and I could nearly instantly feel the inflammation. These days I eat about 50% raw vegan, 30% low carb, and about 10% complete junk. I wish I had the self control to eat all raw again. It physically felt so good to eat that way.


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"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Registered: 05/30/21
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Re: The Western Diet [Re: Joh.Ke]
    #28384363 - 07/04/23 03:14 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Joh.Ke said:
Quote:

CreonAntigone said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
hard to chicken and egg the whole McDonalds and Nestle empires - what caused what, but the whole basis of our economy (and freemarket diet) deserves some fresh eyes
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/16/business/neoliberalism-free-market-research.html




Meat is not inherently bad, but when we treat our animals this way, I can't imagine they're very good to eat.



One can get sick just looking at it, and MOST meat is made this way. Can eating a very sick animal really promote health?




Well, to be the devil's advocate:  we all gag at the thought of eating an animal that has died from cancer, and especially gross is the thought of eating its lump of cancerous growth.  However, once you cook that lump properly, it really is not that different from healthy cooked flesh, right?  I mean they are both protein.  I think it's purely down to the psychological factor.




It's food yes, edible, but is it good food?

An animal that has been chronically stressed will have a lot of stress hormones in their blood, they will be inflamed and have weak muscle development. Very likely it won't taste as good. There's something to that concept of Japanese kobe beef about treating the animal well to taste better.

Will it make a person sick? I don't know if it'd do that. I'm sure it would still be an OK source of protein. But I suspect that due to the stress markers in the blood of the cows, the meat will have less nutrition and less essential minerals - a deprived cow would make meat that might also be deprived. If the meat was, let's say, just 10% less nutritious (from lack of minerals), multiplying that on the scale of the global food chain and you actually would see some effect on population health.

I'm just making a theory and would be receptive to people showing me evidence against this idea. Someone could show me a study saying that meat from stressed animals is just as good as meat from non-stressed animals - but I really think that is unlikely, as it goes against good sense. The products of healthy animals should be healtier.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
Re: The Western Diet [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28384449 - 07/04/23 05:30 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

NYT had a feature on BarbeQ today,
Man I could use some ribs, or burnt chicken...
would love some barbQ sardines too


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The Western Diet [Re: Rahz]
    #28384653 - 07/04/23 10:27 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Plant based foods have reached a near religious glorification.  Anyone who is skeptical regarding the claim of universal health benefits of eating plants is often vilified as a dangerous ignorant kook.

Yet many people have experienced significant health benefits by eliminating most or all plant products from their diet.  Plants considered "superfoods", such as spinach, can cause health problems due to toxic phytochemicals (oxalate)

I've struggled with gut problems for 40 years and have tried many approaches to eating.  Recently I've tried eliminating vegetables from my diet and have noticed the most significant improvements I've ever experienced.  I learned a year ago that eliminating greens was very helpful for me, but now cutting out all plant-based foods really has made a dramatic improvement.  It's amazing.

Maybe we should stop glorifying plants as perfect wonderful foods for everyone?


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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
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Registered: 11/10/05
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Re: The Western Diet [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28384723 - 07/04/23 11:15 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

I am aware of oxalates. Whether they should be cut out entirely or moderated is something each person should figure out for themselves. I don't eat a lot of vegetables currently. Carrots and celery mostly.

I do have a gallon of vegetables fermenting in a jar right now. I'm going to be experimenting with that over the next week. Most cultures have a history of fermenting foods/vegetables.

Broccoli, Cauliflower, Radish, Carrot, little bit of ginger and garlic. 2% salt by weight in water. It's been going for 3 days now which is the recommended time. Tastes okay but I think I will add some balsamic vinegar and pepper to spice it up a little.

You are straight carnivore at the moment? Fungi still in the mix?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineJoh.Ke
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Registered: 07/03/23
Posts: 346
Last seen: 50 minutes, 7 seconds
Re: The Western Diet [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28384744 - 07/04/23 11:37 AM (6 months, 22 days ago)

Quote:

CreonAntigone said:
Quote:

Joh.Ke said:


Well, to be the devil's advocate:  we all gag at the thought of eating an animal that has died from cancer, and especially gross is the thought of eating its lump of cancerous growth.  However, once you cook that lump properly, it really is not that different from healthy cooked flesh, right?  I mean they are both protein.  I think it's purely down to the psychological factor.





Will it make a person sick? I don't know if it'd do that. I'm sure it would still be an OK source of protein. But I suspect that due to the stress markers in the blood of the cows, the meat will have less nutrition and less essential minerals - a deprived cow would make meat that might also be deprived. If the meat was, let's say, just 10% less nutritious (from lack of minerals), multiplying that on the scale of the global food chain and you actually would see some effect on population health.





That makes sense.  I didn't think of this before.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: The Western Diet [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28384870 - 07/04/23 01:42 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

I know that a lot of vegans cite reducing suffering as a cause for their dietary preferences, by id argue that insects suffer too and that spraying them with pesticide causes a lot of suffering. But even more than mammals due to the sheer number of insects killed for agricultural purposes.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Western Diet [Re: sudly]
    #28384877 - 07/04/23 01:52 PM (6 months, 22 days ago)

the diner suffers in his or her own imagination the frenzied feelings of the fatal fate of food fauna.
whether it was a big thing to the animal, or the big thing or no big thing to the animal is not important, what is important is how the diner feels as they contemplate death of the individual creatures who will never grow up to be president or scholars or even basement cleaners, cut down in their prime as it were and converted to mere menu items, much of which is just tossed as waste.


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Registered: 05/21/20
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Re: The Western Diet [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 2
    #28385464 - 07/04/23 10:15 PM (6 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
I learned a year ago that eliminating greens was very helpful for me, but now cutting out all plant-based foods really has made a dramatic improvement.  It's amazing.

Maybe we should stop glorifying plants as perfect wonderful foods for everyone?






--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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InvisibleCreonAntigone
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Registered: 05/30/21
Posts: 2,875
Re: The Western Diet [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28385949 - 07/05/23 01:11 PM (6 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the diner suffers in his or her own imagination the frenzied feelings of the fatal fate of food fauna.
whether it was a big thing to the animal, or the big thing or no big thing to the animal is not important, what is important is how the diner feels as they contemplate death of the individual creatures who will never grow up to be president or scholars or even basement cleaners, cut down in their prime as it were and converted to mere menu items, much of which is just tossed as waste.




This reminds me of a certain tech billionaire, Zuckerberg, who decided to go a year only eating meat he killed himself. And as much as I don't respect the man, I do respect the reason he went about this, to better investigate the animal behind the food.

He says, surprisingly insightfully (given who he is):

Quote:


This year, my personal challenge is around being thankful for the food I have to eat. I think many people forget that a living being has to die for you to eat meat, so my goal revolves around not letting myself forget that and being thankful for what I have. This year I've basically become a vegetarian since the only meat I'm eating is from animals I've killed myself. So far, this has been a good experience. I'm eating a lot healthier foods and I've learned a lot about sustainable farming and raising of animals.

I started thinking about this last year when I had a pig roast at my house. A bunch of people told me that even though they loved eating pork, they really didn't want to think about the fact that the pig used to be alive. That just seemed irresponsible to me. I don't have an issue with anything people choose to eat, but I do think they should take responsibility and be thankful for what they eat rather than trying to ignore where it came from.





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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The Western Diet [Re: Rahz]
    #28385953 - 07/05/23 01:18 PM (6 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:

You are straight carnivore at the moment?




I'm about 90% meat 10% plant-based foods. There are interesting stories on YT by people and doctors who have eaten no plant-based foods for 10 to 20 years. Complete with blood & health analysis.  Lots of info to sift thru, I doubt we will ever see anyone who has only eaten meat for two decades interviewed on CBS 60 Minutes, NBC Dateline, or a 20/20 episode about heart health.  It will never happen, right?  If they covered the subject, they would portray the practice as ignorant and dangerous.   

The most impressive change I've experienced since eliminating vegetables is that my constipation is gone.  I've heard my whole life we need plant fiber to help us crap, yet many people find the opposite to be true.  I don't mean to imply it's for everyone, but with many millions suffering with digestive problems, it's wise to explore options. I was super skeptical and noticed changes in a day and a half. Vegetables can cause bloating and constipation for some folks.

Quote:

CreonAntigone said:

But I suspect that due to the stress markers in the blood of the cows, the meat will have less nutrition and less essential minerals




When a pack of hyenas chase down a zebra, antelope, or wildebeest, do you think the animal is less nutritious than being killed instantly by a hunter with a gun?  I've heard of adrenaline but not "stress marker".  What is that?

- Moses Davidson -

JP is always funny!  As I explore dietary regimes that exclude plant-based foods, I don't see people who have positive health results acting like many vegans do.  Sometimes (often?) vegans approach their lifestyle choice as something between a religion and a militaristic movement which must be embraced in order to save the planet.  Meat has really been demonized. Animal fat being bad for you and some of the theories about cholesterol are ideas that have been used to push beliefs that aren't based in science and/or are a gross distortion of the evidence.

Interesting studies of meat-centric diets of some Eskimo and African cultures.

They don't suffer the numerous health problems of people eating the Western diet.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Western Diet [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #28385954 - 07/05/23 01:19 PM (6 months, 21 days ago)

that makes me think I should be a billionaire too


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The Western Diet [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28385980 - 07/05/23 01:43 PM (6 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

It will never happen, right?




I wouldn't bet on it. Eating ze bugs has been in the news though.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Western Diet [Re: Rahz]
    #28385995 - 07/05/23 01:55 PM (6 months, 21 days ago)

shrimp are bugs
Yummy


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The Western Diet [Re: Rahz]
    #28386006 - 07/05/23 02:02 PM (6 months, 21 days ago)

Eating insects doesn't threaten the plant-based narrative that we've had shoved down our throats for decades.  Eating insects is seen as way to avoid eating meat, so it actually falls right in line with the goal of reducing or eliminating meat from your diet. 

If media has refused to address this issue so far, why would anyone think they would change? 

And they claim they "follow the science"


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The Western Diet [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #28386027 - 07/05/23 02:34 PM (6 months, 21 days ago)

I sometimes ask people if unsaturated fat is healthy or unhealthy. As often as not they answer unhealthy.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Western Diet [Re: Rahz]
    #28386035 - 07/05/23 02:41 PM (6 months, 21 days ago)

people


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