Home | Community | Message Board

MagicBag Grow Bags
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore Injection Grain Bag   MagicBag.co Certified Organic All-In-One Grow Bags by Magic Bag   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   OlympusMyco.com Olympus Myco Bulk Substrate   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1
InvisibleThomas Envisio
Artist

Registered: 12/28/22
Posts: 1,662
Could hallucination-free 'psychedelics' be the future of antidepressants?
    #28360494 - 06/15/23 06:45 AM (10 months, 29 days ago)

Could hallucination-free 'psychedelics' be the future of antidepressants?


By Erika Watts on June 12, 2023


Quote:

Depression is one of the most common mental health issues people face, and sometimes doctors treat symptoms with medications.
One pharmaceutical route scientists are studying is using psychedelics such as LSD and psilocin to treat depression.
However, psychedelics can cause hallucinations, which can be problematic since they can contribute to psychosis or put someone in an unsafe situation.
In a new study out of Finland, researchers found that the mechanism that causes antidepressant benefits is separate from the mechanism that causes hallucinations.






While there are many antidepressant medications doctors prescribe to treat clinical depression, not everyone responds to them.

Finding the right medication and dose can be difficult, and sometimes people simply do not respond well to typically prescribed antidepressants, such as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) and serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors (SNRIs).

This issue led researchers to look into alternative ways of treating depression, and one avenue researchers have been exploring is psychedelics. Some psychedelics may be able to alleviate depression symptoms, but they can also cause hallucinations.

In a study led by researchers from the University of Helsinki in Finland, scientists explored a way to get the benefit of psychedelics without hallucinations. The study is published in Nature NeuroscienceTrusted Source.

Removing hallucinations from the equation
Current researchTrusted Source shows that psychedelics can be effective in treating depression, particularly depression that is otherwise treatment-resistant.

The caveat, however, is that psychedelics such as LSD and magic mushrooms can cause people to hallucinate, which is not ideal since that can potentially trigger psychosis and unsafe behaviors.

This drove the researchers in the current study to look into the mechanisms that give psychedelics both their antidepressant and hallucinogenic effects to see if the latter could be blocked.

According to the authors, they learned through a prior studyTrusted Source that the antidepressants fluoxetine and ketamine “act by binding to TrkBTrusted Source, the receptor for brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF).”

This contributes to neuroplasticity and antidepressant response, and the National Institutes of HealthTrusted Source note that neuroplasticity “is a process that involves adaptive structural and functional changes to the brain.”

“[BDNF] and its receptor TrkB (neurotrophic receptor tyrosine kinase, Ntrk2) are central mediators of plasticity and the therapeutic action of antidepressants,” write the authors.

To see whether the mechanisms that contribute to an antidepressant effect and hallucinations are separate, the researchers’ first step was to conduct experiments by injecting cells into dishes to look into how and where psychedelics bind.

The scientists learned not only the location of the binding site, but that the binding of psychedelics to the TrkB receptors in human, rat, and mouse cells was stronger compared to other antidepressants.

Additionally, the researchers learned that a different mechanism is responsible for the antidepressant and hallucinogenic effects. The next step was to see if it is possible to block the hallucinogenic effect.

Testing psychedelics on mice
The next phase of the research project was to see how mice responded to LSD and if they could block hallucinations in the mice.

The researchers did this by conditioning mice to fear foot shocks — they used this approach to measure depression symptoms. After conditioning the mice, the scientists divided the mice into control and treatment groups.

The study authors said they gave the treatment group LSD along with a serotonin 2A blocker — to potentially block the hallucinogenic effects — and then tried to revert the conditioned mice to not fear foot shocks.

The scientists learned two things from this experiment: First, that the mice on LSD did better than the control group at overcoming the fear response. Second, the pathway for the hallucinogenic effect is distinct from the antidepressant effect.

The future of psychedelic-like drugs
This study shows that psychedelics promote neuroplasticity and that it is possible to achieve this effect without hallucinations.

Since the researchers learned that the mechanisms that help depression and induce hallucinations are separate, they have made a new pathway to work on creating a psychedelic-based antidepressant without the side effects.

Additionally, since the psychedelics proved to be much stronger than the antidepressants tested, psychedelics could one day be the future of treating antidepressant-resistant depression.

“Lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) and psilocin directly bind to TrkB with affinities 1,000-fold higher than those for other antidepressants,” note the authors.

Experts weigh in on research findings
Dr. Abid Nazeer, a psychiatrist and the founder of Advanced Psych Solutions based in Oak Brook, IL, not involved in the research, spoke about the study with Medical News Today.

While Dr. Nazeer pointed out that research into using psychedelics as antidepressants is not new, he did think the study paves the way for more research.

“I think this is a very defining study in terms of how it’s going to open up a lot more research that will be done with this study as a foundation,” commented Dr. Nazeer. “And further studies will now start looking deeper at this concept of getting antidepressant responses without altering somebody’s state of mind.”

Dr. Nazeer also pointed out that the scientists tested on mice and thus we should take the results with a grain of salt.

“I would say a weakness is that this is an animal model. When you’re studying it in mice, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the human brain will have the same reaction,” noted Dr. Nazeer.

Dr. Daniel F. Kelly, a board-certified neurosurgeon and founder and director of the Pacific Neuroscience Institute in Santa Monica, CA, not involved in the study, also spoke with MNT about its takeaways.

“This excellent study by Moliner and colleagues brings into question the long-held assumption by many that the therapeutic effects of the classic psychedelics like LSD and psilocybin are reliant upon the individual having a psychedelic or hallucinogenic experience,” said Dr. Kelly.

Dr. Kelly discussed the “careful design and controls” as strengths of the study and looks forward to what the future holds for utilizing psychedelics in depression treatment.

Source: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/could-hallucination-free-psychedelics-be-the-future-of-antidepressants#Experts-weigh-in-on-research-findings

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinenektar61S
Female Unread Journal User Gallery


Registered: 07/04/20
Posts: 3,299
Loc: Cube Satellite
Last seen: 3 hours, 17 minutes
Re: Could hallucination-free 'psychedelics' be the future of antidepressants? [Re: Thomas Envisio] * 1
    #28360575 - 06/15/23 08:15 AM (10 months, 29 days ago)

No.

You don't have to kill your ego and leave your body and forget your name to have the therapeutic effect. But the walls need to wiggle, at least a little.

I'm intuitively sure of this.

Trying to make similar chemicals with no effect is not "the thing" that is psychedelics.

It's bullshit so Big Pharma can patent nonsense and sell something expensive to people who are afraid to do a gram or two of shrooms.

Tryptophan, an essential amino acid, is very similar to psilocin. But it doesn't expand your mind.

The article mentions ketamine. It's so weird that ketamine is used for therapy. It's NOT psychedelic. It's dissociate. It's only used because doctors can legally prescribe it.

ketamine and non-active "psychedelics" are half measures. Less than half measures.

The  hippies were right. If everyone tripped once, the world would be a better place.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineReynardTheFox
Stranger
I'm a teapot


Registered: 01/25/17
Posts: 204
Last seen: 1 month, 12 days
Re: Could hallucination-free 'psychedelics' be the future of antidepressants? [Re: nektar61] * 1
    #28360790 - 06/15/23 12:34 PM (10 months, 28 days ago)

Also all the data from other studies already indicates thst the best results follow from mystical experiences. You aren't gonna get those without tue visionary component.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThomas Envisio
Artist

Registered: 12/28/22
Posts: 1,662
Re: Could hallucination-free 'psychedelics' be the future of antidepressants? [Re: ReynardTheFox]
    #28360813 - 06/15/23 12:58 PM (10 months, 28 days ago)

May I ask you a difficult, personal question regarding your "visionary component"? I mean this politely, and if you don't want to answer, I completely understand.

What visionary experience(s) have you had in terms of content/description? I, and others, have experienced this. Just curious if you can talk about yours.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleroquet
Expat tippler
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 1,195
Loc: Dubai بجدية عربي...
Re: Could hallucination-free 'psychedelics' be the future of antidepressants? [Re: Thomas Envisio] * 1
    #28361185 - 06/15/23 04:22 PM (10 months, 28 days ago)

When I first took MDMA after quite a few strong LSD trips, I thought "Wow, how can it be possible to feel like this without hallucinating?". So I don't think we should knock psychedelic-free psychedelics out of hand.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinenektar61S
Female Unread Journal User Gallery


Registered: 07/04/20
Posts: 3,299
Loc: Cube Satellite
Last seen: 3 hours, 17 minutes
Re: Could hallucination-free 'psychedelics' be the future of antidepressants? [Re: roquet]
    #28361291 - 06/15/23 05:54 PM (10 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

roquet said:
When I first took MDMA after quite a few strong LSD trips, I thought "Wow, how can it be possible to feel like this without hallucinating?". So I don't think we should knock psychedelic-free psychedelics out of hand.



When I say "the walls wiggle", it's shorthand for a trip. If the internal walls of your brain wiggle, but the perception of your eyes' input isn't changed, you're still tripping.

If neither happen, it's not a trip.

--
Quote:

Thomas Envisio said:
May I ask you a difficult, personal question regarding your "visionary component"? I mean this politely, and if you don't want to answer, I completely understand.



Not sure if you're just asking that one person or the room, but here is one of mine:
X7X trip report....2 grams, saw the beginning and end of the universe a few times

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledurian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant
 User Gallery


Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 18,037
Loc: Raccoon City
Re: Could hallucination-free 'psychedelics' be the future of antidepressants? [Re: nektar61]
    #28362218 - 06/16/23 02:54 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)


Quote:

Total Synthesis said:
How do scientists measure how trippy a molecule is?



Quote:

Total Synthesis said:
If you wondered, trippyness can be measured by how often mice violently shake their heads after administration of psychoactive drugs.




I respect that you want to trigger the receptor for brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) without being out of commission for 8hrs, except, the visionary experience which you consider to be unethical is both cathartic and deeply symbolic to human subjects.

I would argue that the trigger is irrelevant, were it not for bodyload.

Edited by durian_2008 (06/16/23 03:25 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinenektar61S
Female Unread Journal User Gallery


Registered: 07/04/20
Posts: 3,299
Loc: Cube Satellite
Last seen: 3 hours, 17 minutes
Re: Could hallucination-free 'psychedelics' be the future of antidepressants? [Re: durian_2008]
    #28362260 - 06/16/23 03:30 PM (10 months, 27 days ago)

Quote:

durian_2008 said:
I respect that you want to trigger the receptor for brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) without being out of commission for 8hrs, except, the visionary experience which you consider to be unethical is both cathartic and deeply symbolic to human subjects.





Yes.

Anyone who's seeking self-improvement, in therapy, mediation, or self-help, whose life is too busy to be out of commission for a few hours has issues that a trip of drugs might not help.

Shrooms are perfect for therapy. A useful dose doesn't last 8 hours.

More like 4 hours come up and come down, with a peak of an hour in the middle of that. The mental improvement happens during that peak, and to a lesser extent, while sober for months after.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1

Shop: Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   North Spore Injection Grain Bag   MagicBag.co Certified Organic All-In-One Grow Bags by Magic Bag   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   OlympusMyco.com Olympus Myco Bulk Substrate   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* The Psychedelic Scientist Who Sends Brains Back to Childhood YthanA 2,779 5 08/13/23 10:09 AM
by durian_2008
* New Scientist - Psychedelic medicine: Mind bending, health giving ekomstop 3,319 1 02/25/05 03:54 AM
by stefan
* Medicine hope for psychedelic drugs AnnoA 3,771 7 08/17/04 08:20 PM
by Ekstaza
* Are psychedelic drugs good for you? motamanM 7,421 6 12/03/03 04:44 AM
by sirreal
* Discover Magazine article on psychedelics HB 7,205 5 03/23/03 07:05 AM
by DazedSol
* Psychedelic research motamanM 1,642 0 02/05/05 05:36 PM
by motaman
* Global Rise in Antidepressants, Other Mind-Altering Drugs Prescribed to Children AnnoA 894 0 11/18/04 01:33 AM
by Anno
* Hope for Legal Medical Use of Psychedelics TinTree 2,521 1 09/29/04 09:58 PM
by Twirling

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: motaman, veggie, Alan Rockefeller, Mostly_Harmless
675 topic views. 0 members, 5 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.026 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 14 queries.