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solarshroomster
Wonderer



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Why does the mystical world hide itself? 3
#28354562 - 06/10/23 02:28 PM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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I don't understand why the mystical world hides itself???!!!!!
Whenever I'm not on the drugs, I no longer "see". And, why, do I keep forgetting?
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
Edited by solarshroomster (06/10/23 02:28 PM)
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CreonAntigone
Stranger

Registered: 05/30/21
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster] 4
#28354574 - 06/10/23 02:44 PM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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Because its appearance is only sensible insofar as it is hidden; were it brought to daylight, it would be ever so ordinary. Mysticism only survives when there are special ways to get there, special moments and conduits. Drugs are one such method, and convenient because of their quickness; but also, special places, practices and thoughts can be made and associated with mysticism, with concerted effort.
I think that mysticism is found in the seeking itself, rather than being anything possible to seek.
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28354684 - 06/10/23 04:37 PM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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On the other hand, what is not spiritual? Is the nature of what you see not up to you? What I mean is not so much the objective world but it is only within us, where any meaning is attributed. Who is seeing with your eyes? Who is in there with you? Whom you invite. Which Christ or Buddha does not say we are like them? And certainly that would include our fellows.
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FishOilTheKid
Ascended



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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro] 1
#28354697 - 06/10/23 04:50 PM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Whenever I'm not on the drugs, I no longer "see". And, why, do I keep forgetting?
This is probably due to how the brain evolved to focus on the immediate reality presented by the 5 senses. Mystical experience seems to come from a focus inward and away from ordinary/consensus reality. Perhaps its related to survival where experiences of the mystical are secondary despite their influence on the masses through storytelling/religion/myth.
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: FishOilTheKid]
#28354777 - 06/10/23 06:25 PM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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'Whenever I'm not on the drugs, I no longer "see". And, why, do I keep forgetting?'
This speaks to an advantage to add if possible a 'sober' way of meditation, or however we affirm, remember, or make peaceful. We could lose access to the substances. Faith is an asset as in any sincere effort or longing is reciprocated multifold. This is true cognitively in forming habituation, no doubt in proportion to sincerity. Where the mind goes it will make for you. Wasn't this your quote, SS, by Plotinus; "They will be what they see."? Though I may have altered the meaning a bit.
People say developing meditation takes a perhaps prohibitive level of dedication, time. In my experience, I can pretty easily give myself an altered state with sadhana and with a little work can take it beyond my comfort tolerance, meaning there is plenty.
I'd say it can be done with less effort than it would take to get a diploma. I believe Yogananda said one can become a good yogi in six months. With the ripeness which seem to abound around here, likely much sooner. Observing the breathing changes the state immediately. And not that I don't have obstacles big time.
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solarshroomster
Wonderer



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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro]
#28354916 - 06/10/23 08:42 PM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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I just think the existence of the mystical domain is an astounding discovery, the best discovery I've ever made in my entire life. I don't understand why people need to be so secretive about it. I feel like it should have been less of a discovery and more of a recognition, like air in the sky.
Like, shouldn't people be taking to the streets and talking about this all day, every day?????
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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FishOilTheKid
Ascended



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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28355000 - 06/10/23 10:19 PM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
I don't understand why people need to be so secretive about it.
It used to be that the Catholic Church would kill you...!!
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FishOilTheKid
Ascended



Registered: 11/14/10
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: FishOilTheKid]
#28355001 - 06/10/23 10:20 PM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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Now the LDS fly out and rape you...
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burntkitty


Registered: 01/02/23
Posts: 494
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28355006 - 06/10/23 10:32 PM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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Forgetting what? The never ending story?
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Lucis
Nutritional Yeast

Registered: 03/28/15
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster] 1
#28355031 - 06/10/23 11:16 PM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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shadow work and the unconscious mind are two things you might benefit from researching.
We often access certain states of consciousness by speaking with certain plant teachers, this allows us to be able to experience a state of gnosis, a eureka moment, or something similar which we find hard to access while in a sober state. Of course, some can access such places of mind while sober but not everyone can.
We often put up barriers in our mind built by our logical/rational hemisphere and forget that we have a spiritual/intuitive hemisphere that also needs attention.
-------------------- ©️
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28355039 - 06/10/23 11:27 PM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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There is a lot of dense energy here. Some say our plane is as if submerged in lower astral thought forms. Not that it is too difficult to rise above it for a time, but without a mind to it, resistance seems to dominate.
Recently after some time of say 'forgetting', I started doing spiritual practice, and the resistance of negativity was a sight, attacking God in various ways. When I would overcome some modes, other strategies would enter to make myself unworthy and keep it covered.
It was visualized as a sea of negative living forms, elemental. Again rising out of it is not too difficult, but there is gravity. The elementals are simply joining their likeness in us, all based in thought.
We are highly equipped to shine them away with pranas given, or bring the annihilative force in manolaya, mahamudra; I like it as Vishnu's form. The witness is the same. I like the thought that although we are in these lower forces, we also have which they do not, meaning the higher order.
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syncro
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro]
#28355245 - 06/11/23 06:31 AM (7 months, 14 days ago) |
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I think what you're talking about, we do. That celebration and exhilaration from direct experience. We may not do it in the physical body, running out into the street. Maybe we should. In the body, we're more subdued. It's really an excellent point. But coming back into the bodily consciousness can be a drag. It's like coming back from the best day of your life, and it ending again temporarily, having to clock in, etc. It's like coming back to where it's dangerous and sad, which the body ego is said to be, though for the ego to allow us to be too conscious of it we would no longer give it reign. It's because of our lack of realization. You are right. It should shine.
The body itself does nothing and can't be blamed. It is what the mind says. This is the teaching. For me though it seems the body mind has its own life. Ideals say one thing, the body does another. It's amusing really.
Edited by syncro (06/11/23 06:49 AM)
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solarshroomster
Wonderer



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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro] 1
#28355331 - 06/11/23 08:35 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
The body itself does nothing and can't be blamed. It is what the mind says. This is the teaching. For me though it seems the body mind has its own life. Ideals say one thing, the body does another. It's amusing really.
Yes. After witnessing a stage performance, I took out into the streets and started proclaiming how it proved the existence of the higher planes. Yes, I was manic, but I was right. People are just asleep to what is in front of them!!!!
Anyhow, after the incident, I've been told I was manic and needed to be "watched".
I get that screaming at the top of your lungs isn't "normal behavior", but it's also not "normal" to be "normal" in the face of the Divine after you've been lied to for so long by spiritual denialists.
We now know that the mystical planes exist, and I think we, as a community, need to do more to get the word out.
Like, while the mystical world ultimately is ineffable, there are certain foundational concepts that can be taught to others at an early age: all is one, we are all interconnected, I am you, the egoic self and the sensory world is a construction of the mind / hallucination, time is illusionary, are all VISIONARY concepts that no one really talks about outside of maybe a few posts here and there on the Shroomery. These are concepts that are spot on mystically, spot on scientifically, and spot on philosophically. It's at the point where I think these should be concepts that are legitimately talked about as theories in school.
I can't figure out why I had to learn about these concepts just through taking shrooms and smoking weed. It was entirely new to me.
To be clear, there are two things here. There are certain ideas that can be talked about with conviction from the mystical planes, but then there's the overall concept which elude ordinary vocabulary. You just need direct experience for them. That's where the "real stuff" is. For that, we can't do anything but be secretive about it, but for the former -- getting the word out seems like a necessary step.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28355522 - 06/11/23 11:45 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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The dynamics of our exposure are interesting. There was not spirituality in my family. We did go to church in the early years. I was baptized. But there was no consciousness of it really beyond that I knew of coming from familial influence.
Considering reincarnation, I was reading again recently that the conditions of family will have to do with past thoughts and actions, and that practitioners, those of faith, etc. will take births appropriated by that plus everything else. And we see that spiritual inclinations arise regardless of outer appearance and provision of family and other influence in youth.
If we graded human birth on this planet as a whole, where would it fall in terms of the most base to the optimal? It's also said to differ in the various ages, yugas.
Now, traditionally speaking I guess, we are considered to be in the Kali yuga, the darkest and headed down for some long time. Then there are the cycles proposed by Yukteshwar and others that are more closely timed with the precession, much faster, and in that it is said we are headed up in better phases. I don't consider these very relevant to the capacities of individuals with inclination.
There is also the idea that thoughts are shared and it is not necessary to be in physical proximity to do that work. This is not to discourage those who have the inclination to do so, nor to discourage you in whatever you choose. Good thread and cool posts by everyone imo.
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro]
#28355542 - 06/11/23 12:01 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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some Terry Brooks fandom
Allanon, speaking to the Ohmsford kids, blood heirs to the Elven magic - "Magic, good or evil, adapts to the user and the user to it."
This struck me in terms of specialness, disastrous under the ego though in function given to the individual, each of us, in the spirit. As we are unique, so is our function, yet it carries power to the degree we are willing to accept.
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro]
#28355634 - 06/11/23 01:11 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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This to me means that even if two follow the same path, it will manifest in them differently. Therefore God, the Magic, the Dao, however referred to, is your own, and you His, Hers, ... uniquely. Only you can fulfill it.
Ok now I would cue the Peter Gunn theme again. lol
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solarshroomster
Wonderer



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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro]
#28355653 - 06/11/23 01:26 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Yeah, I think I need to start trusting myself a little bit more. I've been looking outside myself for authority for too long. Thanks.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster] 2
#28356127 - 06/11/23 07:26 PM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Hidden in plain site.
"Not to seek the Truth outside of ourselves, so we may instantly enter the right way."
- From: Dai E Zenji's Vow for Awakening
"All sentient beings are essentially Buddhas.
As with water and ice, there is no ice without water; Apart from sentient beings there are no Buddhas.
Not knowing how close the truth is we seek it far away – what a pity!
We are like one, who in the midst of water cries out desperately in thirst.
We are like the son of a rich man, who wandered away among the poor.
The reason, we transmigrate through the Six Realms, is because we are lost in the darkness of ignorance. "
- From: Hakuin Zenji's Song of Zazen
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (06/11/23 07:34 PM)
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: The Blind Ass]
#28356431 - 06/12/23 02:07 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Bad people..
Evil people..
They get off on seeing others in misery..
Lucifer wants to be Eve again.
The goodness is there. It is pretty.
But the darkness clouds the true goodness of your soul.
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: BrendanFlock] 1
#28356645 - 06/12/23 07:43 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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If it were fully realized and available to all, it might make this manifestation unnecessary. The question is intriguing and impossible, going back to why the divine made itself appear not to be in the first place.
But it if anyone can find the reason, it is the great shroomery council of stonedhenge.
  
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro] 1
#28356650 - 06/12/23 07:50 AM (7 months, 13 days ago) |
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Oh that reminds me. During the dispensation of the Yoga Vasistha, Rama was a boy, and asked this very question, why, of Vasistha. And Vasistha replied, to the effect of, you are too young to appreciate love stories. So there it is, a love story, a game of hide and seek.
Edited by syncro (06/12/23 07:55 AM)
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,793
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro]
#28356720 - 06/12/23 08:54 AM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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fior most people the deeper world is hidden most of the time, for some it is prominent every day, like for me.
you guys do this world while i bring back loot from the other side.
you guys dont have time to triple sift reality.
Keep pumping air for me while i'm down there collecting pearls for us all.
One of them is Omnicyclion, see sig.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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bubbleguts365
Stranger

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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28356814 - 06/12/23 09:51 AM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
solarshroomster said: I don't understand why the mystical world hides itself???!!!!!
Whenever I'm not on the drugs, I no longer "see". And, why, do I keep forgetting?
Oversimplified answer:
Advanced spiritual practitioners spend decades slowly rewiring their brains to be able to reduce or permanently disable the influence and action of ego/false self.
Drugs can suppress its influence temporarily, but the mind/brain's baseline will bring it roaring back unless a ton of groundwork has been done and attachments sufficiently weakened. Memory of the experience even coupled with intellectual understanding is not enough to shake its influence otherwise.
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solarshroomster
Wonderer



Registered: 11/01/13
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: bubbleguts365]
#28356905 - 06/12/23 10:59 AM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
bubbleguts365 said:
Quote:
solarshroomster said: I don't understand why the mystical world hides itself???!!!!!
Whenever I'm not on the drugs, I no longer "see". And, why, do I keep forgetting?
Oversimplified answer:
Advanced spiritual practitioners spend decades slowly rewiring their brains to be able to reduce or permanently disable the influence and action of ego/false self.
Drugs can suppress its influence temporarily, but the mind/brain's baseline will bring it roaring back unless a ton of groundwork has been done and attachments sufficiently weakened. Memory of the experience even coupled with intellectual understanding is not enough to shake its influence otherwise.
Wow!!!!!! Wow!!!!!
Why is no one FREAKING out about this? You just explained that the perception of the higher planes exists, and no one is making a big deal about this except me? I think everyone on the Shroomery should literally be in complete awe of what you just wrote. It's absolutely incredible.
Let me explain...
You write:
"Memory of the experience even coupled with intellectual understanding is not enough to shake its influence otherwise"
Wow wow wow wow wow wow wow wow. That's so specific to my thoughts, and you nailed it.
The thing is that I came to the same understanding really in isolation. Meaning, I appeared to just "receive" knowledge that later turned out to be in correspondence to a lot of the ideas you mention. This is not possibly "just a coincidence". That is, I came to this understanding telepathically through the substances, so I now see that some ancient knowledge is being imparted on me outside of my conscious, this-worldly influence. I think this may be similar to how butterflies know how to go back home, even though, under each generation, none of them makes it fully the way back. Somehow, they're just programmed "to know".
Here's the background: I was raised very skeptically towards mystically phenomenon. To be entirely honest, it FEELS like it's a security blanket. But the more I've explored it, the more it's become apparent that it's a real thing. Now, I'll admit that the interpretation of the mystical domain is an open question (whether it's "just fireworks going off in the brain" or something more), but it's very existence can no longer be of any doubt. And that, to me, is the greatest discovery of my LIFE.
I'M FREAKING OUT!!! (in a good way)
The reason why I'm skeptical is because, you just hear the same old debates of science vs. religion (these have been rehashed so many times, I don't need to bring them up again), there's a bunch of spiritual bullshitters, and it just feels like a security blanket. But, now I see that just because some of it is fraudulent, there's no reason to throw the "baby out with the bathwater". And similarly, the only reason I have to doubt it now was just that my old worldview was not in correspondence to it.
I've seen the future before in visions, and, in the past, I would just chalk it up to extremely unlikely coincidence. But, some of them are so coincidental I find it really hard to not, at a minimum, put up my hands and say "maybe, I don't know". I've literally had it happen where I've thought of something I've never thought of before appear in my mind, and then I stepped into my parent's bedroom, and they played the television, and it said the same thing.
For me, the thing that really proves the phenomenon of the mystical to me is the ability for it to BE so elusive in the first place. The fact that it eludes our normal consciousness to me, is the proof that there exists other states of mind that could reveal information. To dismiss and limit reality based on the lack of these states now seems incredibly naive to me. The bottom line is that there are other states of consciousness that can reveal things about reality beyond what we normally perceive. This is enough to dismantle the idea of a "consensus reality". THINK HOW MIND BLOWING THAT IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do you remember the first time you discovered the existence of the mystical realms? What was it for you that convinced you? What does life now feel like to you?
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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bubbleguts365
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/23
Posts: 65
Last seen: 2 days, 10 minutes
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28357062 - 06/12/23 12:48 PM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
solarshroomster said:
Wow!!!!!! Wow!!!!!
Why is no one FREAKING out about this? You just explained that the perception of the higher planes exists, and no one is making a big deal about this except me? I think everyone on the Shroomery should literally be in complete awe of what you just wrote. It's absolutely incredible.
Let me explain...
You write:
"Memory of the experience even coupled with intellectual understanding is not enough to shake its influence otherwise"
Wow wow wow wow wow wow wow wow. That's so specific to my thoughts, and you nailed it.
The thing is that I came to the same understanding really in isolation. Meaning, I appeared to just "receive" knowledge that later turned out to be in correspondence to a lot of the ideas you mention. This is not possibly "just a coincidence". That is, I came to this understanding telepathically through the substances, so I now see that some ancient knowledge is being imparted on me outside of my conscious, this-worldly influence. I think this may be similar to how butterflies know how to go back home, even though, under each generation, none of them makes it fully the way back. Somehow, they're just programmed "to know".
Here's the background: I was raised very skeptically towards mystically phenomenon. To be entirely honest, it FEELS like it's a security blanket. But the more I've explored it, the more it's become apparent that it's a real thing. Now, I'll admit that the interpretation of the mystical domain is an open question (whether it's "just fireworks going off in the brain" or something more), but it's very existence can no longer be of any doubt. And that, to me, is the greatest discovery of my LIFE.
I'M FREAKING OUT!!! (in a good way)
The reason why I'm skeptical is because, you just hear the same old debates of science vs. religion (these have been rehashed so many times, I don't need to bring them up again), there's a bunch of spiritual bullshitters, and it just feels like a security blanket. But, now I see that just because some of it is fraudulent, there's no reason to throw the "baby out with the bathwater". And similarly, the only reason I have to doubt it now was just that my old worldview was not in correspondence to it.
I've seen the future before in visions, and, in the past, I would just chalk it up to extremely unlikely coincidence. But, some of them are so coincidental I find it really hard to not, at a minimum, put up my hands and say "maybe, I don't know". I've literally had it happen where I've thought of something I've never thought of before appear in my mind, and then I stepped into my parent's bedroom, and they played the television, and it said the same thing.
For me, the thing that really proves the phenomenon of the mystical to me is the ability for it to BE so elusive in the first place. The fact that it eludes our normal consciousness to me, is the proof that there exists other states of mind that could reveal information. To dismiss and limit reality based on the lack of these states now seems incredibly naive to me. The bottom line is that there are other states of consciousness that can reveal things about reality beyond what we normally perceive. This is enough to dismantle the idea of a "consensus reality". THINK HOW MIND BLOWING THAT IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do you remember the first time you discovered the existence of the mystical realms? What was it for you that convinced you? What does life now feel like to you?
I've had some sober mystical experiences. The first "peak experience," that approached the ego-dissolution experience did leave me quite shaken. Mine was in a spiritual context, but I could not find adequate support for integration... it was quite overwhelming to sit with the feeling that the everyday world now appeared at a "dream level" of realism, while that experience felt like the only exposure to "reality" I'd ever had. I think the way people find answers to that very unnerving sense very much dictate the trajectory they will take from there.
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
Posts: 2,696
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: bubbleguts365]
#28357161 - 06/12/23 02:19 PM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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Tumbling this around in my head, I'm not sure there is a time anyone with consciousness doesn't know about spirit. If they know about spirit, then they have a sense of the message of liberation or salvation which is the seed. I could be off.
We hear about the spiritual openness of babies and children, and I had such experience at 1.5 years being baptized. I don't have any coherent memories of before that... but consciousness itself is spiritual awareness.
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro]
#28357300 - 06/12/23 03:57 PM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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Another thing coming up that is hidden and is perhaps more of a concern - we can have spiritual experience which is awesome. What is hidden is karma, that which is not manifesting immediately.
Once we get spiritual experience, and can get it fairly easily, there can be smugness. Bask in the fruits no doubt. They are given. But just because we have that doesn't mean there isn't work to be done.
It depends on belief systems. It is said we have a storehouse of karma that we are not even using in this life. So make sure and burn a bunch with your eye of wisdom.
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: Asante]
#28357633 - 06/12/23 08:16 PM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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"Keep pumping air for me while i'm down there collecting pearls for us all."
This is added to intention.
Sent a couple bucks worth. It didn't occur to me, but the energy sent could be called prana, which is what I call everything, but it's also called vital air...
I am underrating air, the elements above. This is used to purify the subtle body in bhuta shuddhi.
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spinvis
Stranger

Registered: 09/15/20
Posts: 586
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster] 2
#28357905 - 06/13/23 03:51 AM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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Anthony De Mello - The Song of the Bird - THE LITTLE FISH; "“Excuse me,“ said an ocean fish. “You are older than I, so can you tell me where to find this thing they call the ocean?”
“The ocean,” said the older fish, “is the thing you are in now.”
“Oh, this? But this is water. What I’m seeking is the ocean,” said the disappointed fish as he swam away to search elsewhere.
He came to the master in sannyasi robes. And he spoke sannyasi language: “For years I have been seeking God. I have sought him everywhere that he is said to be: on mountain peaks, the vastness of the desert, the silence of the cloister, and the dwellings of the poor.”
“Have you found him?” the master asked.
“No. I have not. Have you?”
What could the master say? The evening sun was sending shafts of golden light into the room. Hundreds of sparrows were twittering on a nearby banyan tree. In the distance one could hear the sound of highway traffic. A mosquito droned a warning that it was going to strike….And yet this man could sit there and say he had not found God.
After a while he left, disappointed, to search elsewhere.
Stop searching, little fish. There isn’t anything to look for. All you have to do is look."
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bubbleguts365
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: spinvis]
#28358049 - 06/13/23 07:49 AM (7 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
spinvis said: Anthony De Mello - The Song of the Bird - THE LITTLE FISH; "“Excuse me,“ said an ocean fish. “You are older than I, so can you tell me where to find this thing they call the ocean?”
“The ocean,” said the older fish, “is the thing you are in now.”
“Oh, this? But this is water. What I’m seeking is the ocean,” said the disappointed fish as he swam away to search elsewhere.
He came to the master in sannyasi robes. And he spoke sannyasi language: “For years I have been seeking God. I have sought him everywhere that he is said to be: on mountain peaks, the vastness of the desert, the silence of the cloister, and the dwellings of the poor.”
“Have you found him?” the master asked.
“No. I have not. Have you?”
What could the master say? The evening sun was sending shafts of golden light into the room. Hundreds of sparrows were twittering on a nearby banyan tree. In the distance one could hear the sound of highway traffic. A mosquito droned a warning that it was going to strike….And yet this man could sit there and say he had not found God.
After a while he left, disappointed, to search elsewhere.
Stop searching, little fish. There isn’t anything to look for. All you have to do is look."
De Mello was amazing. All those books released after his death were already edited and essentially ready to publish when he died. He wasn't in it for the fame or money, so he just left them for us as a nice parting gift.
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durian_2008
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: bubbleguts365]
#28358376 - 06/13/23 12:17 PM (7 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
solarshroomster said: Advanced spiritual practitioners spend decades slowly rewiring their brains to be able to reduce or permanently disable the influence and action of ego/false self.
I experience this, in part, as sensory deprivation and thought stopping.
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durian_2008
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: durian_2008]
#28358384 - 06/13/23 12:23 PM (7 months, 11 days ago) |
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One consideration is that we are the coarser beings, whose thinking comes across as more shouty, vulgar, and violent.
I think that, someday, in the setting of a great court trial, the Accuser of Saints is going to attribute so many horror movie motifs to mankind.
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syncro
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: durian_2008]
#28358524 - 06/13/23 02:08 PM (7 months, 11 days ago) |
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Although we see man and whatever, effects of thought forms, are capable of this to an extent, interestingly Theosophy reviews the creation accounts in the esoteric where such forces specifically, what would be the devil are said to be misidentified and otherwise are part of necessary creation. Blavatsky brings the Occult into the mix with ancient Brahmanism, on the surface standing against the conclusions of Christianity and defending these forces, though on a deeper, different level not plainly promoting anything would sound evil (that I saw), more a technical, historical analysis. But then I can't tell if she's very smart with bad intentions, for in the analysis itself the feel of intentional quality is perhaps neutral, and how thorough has been the programming in God, Devil dyad. Perhaps the details are not as important as cruising past the accuser regardless of what it is, and or working to help free of it.
The yogas themselves in terms of subtle anatomy also may parallel these same forces disputed, for example, the aspects in the structure of the chakra system have entities of a sort that are addressed through sound vibrations to pierce, enlighten, pass through in the elevation; these are not considered devils but more like minor gods to appease.
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durian_2008
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro]
#28358531 - 06/13/23 02:21 PM (7 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
what would be the devil are said to be misidentified and otherwise are part of necessary creation
I might use the word, evocation, if I wanted to be nitpicky.
I feel that all the possible forms have been created and are in a sort of Guf or storehouse.
Making them tangible seems to result in a sort of shadow or negative version or scapegoat or equal-but-opposite reaction akin to karmic debt.
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syncro
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: durian_2008]
#28358566 - 06/13/23 03:03 PM (7 months, 11 days ago) |
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The guf or storehouse sounds eerily like sanchita, our mountain of karma.
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durian_2008
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro] 1
#28358576 - 06/13/23 03:10 PM (7 months, 11 days ago) |
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Think of it, in a Shrodinger's cat kind-of way. There is not one but two cats, to the best of my reckoning.
In my private interpretation. I am not speaking on behalf of any one tradition, or telling you, you will go to Hell, if you don't believe in this one thing.
I think, every manifestation results in an equal-but-opposite reaction in consensus reality, and viewing it from a purely-materialistic perspective, it will always seem to appear to be satisfied by physics as they are known in consensus reality. In other words, as a coincidence or synchronicity, with a conventional explanation.
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syncro
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: durian_2008]
#28358861 - 06/13/23 07:33 PM (7 months, 11 days ago) |
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In afterlife narratives I read recently, as in the astral every thought goes there and is manifest.
In some yogic views, in the higher ages, thoughts brought more of an immediate ramification. Now in the Kali yuga, we are more insulated from thoughts in the heavier material, in terms of manifestation. The grossness may be merciful for us who do not control them.
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syncro
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro]
#28358887 - 06/13/23 07:59 PM (7 months, 11 days ago) |
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Seems to relate to the talk around idols, in impermanence and dissatisfaction, separating self in the elements and looking for completion in the false context. In Acim is implied we, the Sonship, have the power and make the guf and the appearance of reality in the falsehood.
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syncro
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro] 1
#28359367 - 06/14/23 09:36 AM (7 months, 10 days ago) |
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"Why does the mystical world hide itself?"
I keep turning this question, captivated. A parallel may be what is it that we want, what is our goal?
I found that I am not really clear, that there not is a goal without conflict in spite how much I seem to take to it. The goal is largely accompanied by the thoughts around not being able to have it, at least at different times. This is contrary to a true decision.
People say there need be no goal (in meditation, say, being), but it wouldn't have been approached without a purpose. Where purpose is confused, we are not without goals or need.
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Eggtimer
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster] 2
#28362267 - 06/16/23 03:37 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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This isn't seriousness Always there in front of our face. We are gazing into right now. It never moves. What we're seeing as the mundane world is just happening in the brain. Although right now the only thing we see or experience is inside the visual cortex of our brain. We do not see as it is we see the brains construct of it. The subtle thought that this isn't it is what keeps us from seeing the "mystical" it is always there inseparable from the mundane.
Quote:
a leaf even dry, dropped, has no independent existence for its birth growth decay . it's finally a part of the infinite universe,
if it drops where can it go , except to the earth? where is the earth,?
it's not independent of galaxy, which is again not independent of the sky, we feel sun and stars are remote as if of no concern, but they are a part of the whole , without them , i cannot imagine my existence , my birth even
why to look my house is only the four walls, when the city is mine, whwnthe country, when the earth, when the universe is really is mine , it's really my universe, like my body and limbs my whole personality is not limited to some feet height, it is far far , it is all every one of us is really parts of one another , no separate
i am there , since you are all there , since the whole universe is there i am alive since the universe is alive
leaf is alive, since the tree is alive there is no need for leaf thinking that it is leaf where is it's beginning and end ? even earth holding the tree is a part of tree part of leaf . every dust particle is part of infinity , it's existing since universe is existing so dust particle can claim ''i am the universe''
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Is there anything called externality, or not? Is there such a thing called the external world, unconnected with you? Think over this matter. People think the external world is unconnected with them. They say, “What does it matter what happens anywhere? I walk on the road independently.” This cannot be done because if the world is completely unconnected with you, you would not desire for anything in the world. Who will desire for a thing with which they are unconnected? That there is a desire to possess things as if they are totally external to one's own consciousness shows that though they appear to be external, they are not really external. The world is a universal being; it is not an external object. The moment you think it is external, you will be in great trouble. On the one hand you want to possess the things of the world, and on the other hand you cannot possess them because they are external. This is the tragedy of samsara.
The panacea for overcoming this difficulty is to not consider the world as external to you. There is nothing external to you, really speaking. Everything is connected to you through the universal fabric of interrelationships. This is something very new that you are hearing. Everything is connected to everything else. Whether you think through a scientific or logical way or through meditation, you will realize that nothing in the world is totally outside you. The whole point is, if it is totally outside, you will not hanker after it. Who will hanker after a thing which is not connected with you? That shows there is an undercurrent of connection between you and everything else.
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solarshroomster
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: Eggtimer]
#28362324 - 06/16/23 04:19 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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Excellent post Eggtimer.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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solarshroomster
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Time and meaning of information is re-arranged.
Can't explain it.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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solarshroomster
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Okay, I'm upset. I know I've said this repeatedly, but this is coming from the heart: I really feel I was lied to. I feel like I was "convinced" into believing that the "other worlds" didn't exist, but now I'm being able to patently "see" it. It's impossible to describe, but do you get this?
I truly, truly do not know why people aren't making a bigger deal about this?
The existence of the universe / reality / Divine / God.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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BrendanFlock
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Quote:
solarshroomster said: Okay, I'm upset. I know I've said this repeatedly, but this is coming from the heart: I really feel I was lied to. I feel like I was "convinced" into believing that the "other worlds" didn't exist, but now I'm being able to patently "see" it. It's impossible to describe, but do you get this?
I truly, truly do not know why people aren't making a bigger deal about this?
The existence of the universe / reality / Divine / God.
Subjective confirmation bias..
These worlds can be difficult to describe..
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solarshroomster
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#28362794 - 06/16/23 11:45 PM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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Wow. Wow. Wow. thank you...Quote:
BrendanFlock said:
Quote:
solarshroomster said: Okay, I'm upset. I know I've said this repeatedly, but this is coming from the heart: I really feel I was lied to. I feel like I was "convinced" into believing that the "other worlds" didn't exist, but now I'm being able to patently "see" it. It's impossible to describe, but do you get this?
I truly, truly do not know why people aren't making a bigger deal about this?
The existence of the universe / reality / Divine / God.
Subjective confirmation bias..
These worlds can be difficult to describe..
Wow. Wow. Wow. thank you...
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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solarshroomster
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It's just so crazy to be alive. I don't know why people aren't talking about that more?
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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FishOilTheKid
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I think it depends where you look...
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: FishOilTheKid]
#28362855 - 06/17/23 02:07 AM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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When you have a single tear you can begin to share more.
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solarshroomster
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#28363001 - 06/17/23 07:45 AM (7 months, 8 days ago) |
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Yeah, I got a lot I want to say, let's put it that way.
Again, I want to emphasize that I'm not UPSET at anyone per se, but definitely a bit frustrated. At the end of the day, they were there to create this UNDERSTANDING NOW, so I'm grateful for it all.
When I started talking openly about revelation, they diagnosed me as being manic. I absolutely lost it when I saw a stage hypnotist trance 16 sober people. It was the most incredible thing I've ever seen. I mean, what does that say about the stability of the ego? It's like we're not even there. Behind the surface appearance, there's a deeper, allegorical essence.
I was finally saying the truth, and even the psychiatrist admitted that my mania provided a "window into something more". It just feels like there's a concerted effort keeping people from knowing the truth, in my feeling. I don't know why that force exists. It's like they did everything in their power to make me the biggest doubter in the world. Doubting Thomas, they say.
What hurts the most is that, even though I agree revelation is outside this world, there's concrete things we can share that would help people in this world. I'm in the process of writing a book on Why does Reality Exist?. It will inevitably fail and be wrong, that's sort of the point. But the idea is to at least to make something of an effort. I'm sure I'll laugh at it years from now, but it's an important diary Reality is writing to itself...
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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syncro
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'concerted effort keeping people from knowing the truth'
It seems in the larger picture, it is not intentional or it's unconscious. It reminded me again of the don Juan quote, "I call this a social base because a serious and fierce effort is put out by everybody to guide us to perceive the world the way we do." I'm aware of controversy around Castaneda but the message again is broadly inferred.
But what is that tendency? It seems like a survival aspect of the body.
Edited by syncro (06/17/23 09:53 AM)
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syncro
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro]
#28363126 - 06/17/23 09:52 AM (7 months, 7 days ago) |
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It's interesting the idea of being the whole mind, all of us, bringing what we do to the all.
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solarshroomster
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro]
#28363148 - 06/17/23 10:08 AM (7 months, 7 days ago) |
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That is a great quote by Don Juan. Yep, definitely. I feel similarly that it's all in plain sight, but at the same time it isn't. I guess it just depends on the perspective.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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syncro
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster] 1
#28363161 - 06/17/23 10:18 AM (7 months, 7 days ago) |
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Here's the whole quote I selected before. I think I referred to this recently so pardon if I'm repeating.
Quote:
"What would it mean to me to perceive the energetic essence of things?" I once asked don Juan. "It would mean that you perceive energy directly," he replied. "By separating the social part of perception, you'll perceive the essence of everything. Whatever we are perceiving is energy, but since we can't directly perceive energy we process our perception to fit a mold. This mold is the social part of perception, which you have to separate." "Why do I have to separate it?" "Because it deliberately reduces the scope of what can be perceived and makes us believe that the mold into which we fit our perception is all that exists. I am convinced that for man to survive now, his perception must change at its social base." "What is this social base of perception, don Juan?" "The physical certainty that the world is made of concrete objects. I call this a social base because a serious and fierce effort is put out by everybody to guide us to perceive the world the way we do." "How then should we perceive the world?" "Everything is energy. The whole universe is energy. The social base of our perception should be the physical certainty that energy is all there is. A mighty effort should be made to guide us to perceive energy as energy. Then we would have both alternatives at our fingertips."
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solarshroomster
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro]
#28363213 - 06/17/23 11:39 AM (7 months, 7 days ago) |
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Yeah, that quote is definitely on the money.
That still leaves open my question: if this is a real thing, why aren't people talking about it more? Like, why does Don Juan need to be so secretive? Why?
Like, I hear religious stuff all the time, but no one exactly saying the kinds of things you or Don Juan are saying. It's so hidden. It feels like there's this "fierce effort" to "guide us to perceive the world the way we do", when there are so clearly other modes of perception. Imagine how a bat or an alien may perceive of reality?
This ineffable "other perception" is what we mean when we speak about the higher planes.
It's a shame there has to be that controversy with Castenada. But, then again, that seems to be very intentional. Like, we get evidence, but there always seems to be a fact that cripples the entire theory (in this case, it's hard to separate Castenada the man from the legend, the truth (whatever that is), and Don Juan".
I'm just kind of confused why there's not more people talking about these things? Have I been living under a rock?
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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syncro
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro]
#28363218 - 06/17/23 11:41 AM (7 months, 7 days ago) |
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Btw, this moon cycle starting to wax is auspicious up to the full, plus happy solstice soon! Strength to all.
Edited by syncro (07/02/23 08:15 AM)
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syncro
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Quote:
solarshroomster said: Yeah, that quote is definitely on the money.
That still leaves open my question: if this is a real thing, why aren't people talking about it more? Like, why does Don Juan need to be so secretive? Why?
Like, I hear religious stuff all the time, but no one exactly saying the kinds of things you or Don Juan are saying. It's so hidden. It feels like there's this "fierce effort" to "guide us to perceive the world the way we do", when there are so clearly other modes of perception. Imagine how a bat or an alien may perceive of reality?
This ineffable "other perception" is what we mean when we speak about the higher planes.
It's a shame there has to be that controversy with Castenada. But, then again, that seems to be very intentional. Like, we get evidence, but there always seems to be a fact that cripples the entire theory (in this case, it's hard to separate Castenada the man from the legend, the truth (whatever that is), and Don Juan".
I'm just kind of confused why there's not more people talking about these things? Have I been living under a rock?
As for secretive, one reason I was considering before, or I might have posted... first I searched my journal for 'secret' just for interest, and got these.
Shankara "70. Having a firm grasp of this secret Knowledge, the Supreme Goal, and being free from defects and vanity people should always fix their minds on Brahman which is always the same. For no man who knows Brahman to be different from himself is a knower of Truth."
Don't remember this source. "Ayin
Finally one experiences the Infinite Eye of God directing every created being to its ultimate fulfillment of purpose in Creation, thereby bringing all Creation to realize its Divine Purpose. Here, one’s awe itself is in the face of the revelation of God’s Infinite Love for all (“all is right”). This is the secret of sweetening."
Excaliber "What is the secret of the Grail? The king and the land are one."
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solarshroomster
Wonderer



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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro] 1
#28363273 - 06/17/23 12:54 PM (7 months, 7 days ago) |
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You blow my mind syncro.
"What is the secret of the Grail? The king and the land are one."
That's great!
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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syncro
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Yeah, I was tripping on that one for a while.
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syncro
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro]
#28363331 - 06/17/23 01:50 PM (7 months, 7 days ago) |
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A reason I was thinking about involving secrecy is around initiation. There is an aspect of protection - teaching won't be given without initiation, knowing the person and connecting to keep an eye and guide them. There is karmic implication. Guides are taking responsibility for the initiate. Power also is an obvious reason for being attentive.
As for the masses, they just don't see it. We are buried here with a tiny spectrum of sight. We are like fish considering flight or walking on land. As we see there are some species who are doing so.
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solarshroomster
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro]
#28363343 - 06/17/23 02:00 PM (7 months, 7 days ago) |
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Lol, I get what you're getting at with that "king and land are one". It's sort of saying that the author of something can't be distinguished from his extensional space. Sort of like the merging of space & time. But that's just my conception of it... a lot of interesting ways you can go with that quote. Great stuff.
For what it's worth, I really appreciate conversations like this. I haven't had it in my entire life, so it's like an entirely new thing. Tells me that I'm not the only one crazy in town. Us crazies can have normal conversations.
As the Cheshire Cat might say, “I am not crazy, my reality is just different from yours".
I like what you say about a fish considering flight. That's a good way of putting it. I also like to think of it as trying to tell a blind man to see and then asking us to imagine another sense that we don't have. If you don't have it, you don't know it.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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The Blind Ass
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Quote:
solarshroomster said: Okay, I'm upset. I know I've said this repeatedly, but this is coming from the heart: I really feel I was lied to. I feel like I was "convinced" into believing that the "other worlds" didn't exist, but now I'm being able to patently "see" it. It's impossible to describe, but do you get this?
I truly, truly do not know why people aren't making a bigger deal about this?
The existence of the universe / reality / Divine / God.
Awareness of the -always already all at once- inclusivity of the nondual nature of mind resolves relative/absolute intellectual dualism.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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syncro
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Glad to hear that is found here. It seems difficult to find active spiritual forums. The thing about spiritual talk is it's essentially saying to be quiet. Maybe the silent forums have all become enlightened. Who knows though, the force can make for new conversation.
Edited by syncro (06/17/23 03:34 PM)
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CreonAntigone
Stranger

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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro]
#28363929 - 06/18/23 01:16 AM (7 months, 7 days ago) |
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Solar, have you ever read Plato's Republic?
It really goes deep into this issue of the ineffeability of the ultimate, and how people could be tasked to see it more easily. Socrates in the book designs an education system trained to get people attuned to see the Form of the Good, the one-ness that Plato sees as the source of all things, and something that always stays the same for all time.
But the book grapples with the challenge of conveying this ultimate, as one of Socrates' conversants asks him to describe what the Form of the Good is like, and he cannot. He says that one must learn to see it for themselves. It is a special kind of knowledge.
The idea of the cave is all about the relation of mysticism to the regular world, as the philosopher accesses a truth that puts them at a distance from the human community, and they must learn if it is possible to spread that idea to the people, at risk to themselves.
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durian_2008
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: CreonAntigone] 1
#28364137 - 06/18/23 08:24 AM (7 months, 6 days ago) |
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The mystical world hides itself, because the first several visionary exepriences deal with the clearing of emotional baggage and stabilizing your usually-neglected health. Think of it as a spaceship, which is prioritizing the guidance system and life support, ahead of exploration.
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solarshroomster
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: CreonAntigone]
#28364443 - 06/18/23 02:15 PM (7 months, 6 days ago) |
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Quote:
CreonAntigone said: Solar, have you ever read Plato's Republic?
It really goes deep into this issue of the ineffeability of the ultimate, and how people could be tasked to see it more easily. Socrates in the book designs an education system trained to get people attuned to see the Form of the Good, the one-ness that Plato sees as the source of all things, and something that always stays the same for all time.
But the book grapples with the challenge of conveying this ultimate, as one of Socrates' conversants asks him to describe what the Form of the Good is like, and he cannot. He says that one must learn to see it for themselves. It is a special kind of knowledge.
The idea of the cave is all about the relation of mysticism to the regular world, as the philosopher accesses a truth that puts them at a distance from the human community, and they must learn if it is possible to spread that idea to the people, at risk to themselves.
It was hard to go into anything with the semblance of spirituality when I was told, repeatedly, that it was bullshit in the end. Why bother reading anything, when you can preempt it all with "this is nonsense!" in advance?
To be honest, this understanding was so engrained in me, it's hard to STILL not feel like Plato's thoughts and Socrates book are nothing other than the musings of weak-minded hearts in need of a security blanket.
I'm really frustrated. I was totally lied to.
Do you understand that? I'm peeved out of my mind. They sold me a lie, put me into a state of near psychosis, and then spit in my face and tell me it's raining. And when I say "they spit in my face and tell me it's raining", I mean: they constantly gaslight, telling me I'm not experiencing what I very well know I'm experiencing. Do these people not have eyes to see the higher planes? How are they so missing it? And why do they go all missionary style preaching their gospel of atheism in ignorance to it all?
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
Edited by solarshroomster (06/18/23 02:16 PM)
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



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The classical philosophers would have considered absolute atheism to be an example of hubris, having anthropomorphized all these forces of nature and human emotions, into marble busts and idols. The capitol buildings are actually made to resemble pagan temples. Civics is a religion.
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CreonAntigone
Stranger

Registered: 05/30/21
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Quote:
solarshroomster said: Do these people not have eyes to see the higher planes? How are they so missing it? And why do they go all missionary style preaching their gospel of atheism in ignorance to it all?
Nietzsche said god is dead, meaning that we no longer have true visionary experiences through religion.
So if you want communal religious experiences, you have to understand that it is a struggle today, and that we'll have to do something entirely new.
According to Nietzsche, god died and we didn't even directly know it, it took a while to feel the impact; churches are tombs to a dead ideal.
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Eggtimer
HotSauce Lover

Registered: 05/04/13
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Last seen: 2 days, 17 hours
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Quote:
solarshroomster said:
Quote:
CreonAntigone said: Solar, have you ever read Plato's Republic?
It really goes deep into this issue of the ineffeability of the ultimate, and how people could be tasked to see it more easily. Socrates in the book designs an education system trained to get people attuned to see the Form of the Good, the one-ness that Plato sees as the source of all things, and something that always stays the same for all time.
But the book grapples with the challenge of conveying this ultimate, as one of Socrates' conversants asks him to describe what the Form of the Good is like, and he cannot. He says that one must learn to see it for themselves. It is a special kind of knowledge.
The idea of the cave is all about the relation of mysticism to the regular world, as the philosopher accesses a truth that puts them at a distance from the human community, and they must learn if it is possible to spread that idea to the people, at risk to themselves.
It was hard to go into anything with the semblance of spirituality when I was told, repeatedly, that it was bullshit in the end. Why bother reading anything, when you can preempt it all with "this is nonsense!" in advance?
To be honest, this understanding was so engrained in me, it's hard to STILL not feel like Plato's thoughts and Socrates book are nothing other than the musings of weak-minded hearts in need of a security blanket.
I'm really frustrated. I was totally lied to.
Do you understand that? I'm peeved out of my mind. They sold me a lie, put me into a state of near psychosis, and then spit in my face and tell me it's raining. And when I say "they spit in my face and tell me it's raining", I mean: they constantly gaslight, telling me I'm not experiencing what I very well know I'm experiencing. Do these people not have eyes to see the higher planes? How are they so missing it? And why do they go all missionary style preaching their gospel of atheism in ignorance to it all?
Don't forget about polarity. For there to be knowledge there must also be ignorance. For us to have this experience as a self contained being we have to taste the illusion of separation and duality. To taste freedom and union there must first be the sense of bondage and separation.
Sometimes ponder time as not just a one way arrow but an arrow going both ways. For you to be where you are now you had to have went thru everything that you've went thru or you would be somewhere else. Point C is because point B was and point A was. Take away those and there's no arriving at point C. This is something that I struggle with but everything we experience is served with the greatest love. Every cell, every feeling, every thought, every perception of pain or pleasure, every being good/evil, microscopic or cosmic is the infinite coursing through the infinite. If we always get only what we want there is no way to go beyond the limited because the desire never arises.
Here is a poem I like "Safe Passage Home"
Quote:
Once upon a time, a long long time ago, Before even Grandfather Sky had given birth to the stars, There was only One Being. One pure consciousness of love resting in the completeness Of its own untold Stories and mute Songs unsung. Then, one day, for reasons that no one remembers, If in fact anyone ever knew, The One became restless. Some say it decided to play a cosmic game of Hide and seek, splitting its Light into Tiny sparks, each with the full potential of the Whole.
In this way the One could know itself and grow itself. So each spark was clothed in a costume of flesh And its Light and wisdom hidden deep within its heart. The challenge of the game was for all parts of the Whole To discover their way back home again Having lived all the Stories and sung all the Songs That would make them wise and compassionate Co-creators and companions to the One.
The fledgling souls took many roads Home. Each Way had its own Story and each soul Responded to that Story with the gift of free will, Embroidering new stories on the dream-tapestry Of the One Great Dreamer.
And the sun rose and the sun set.
The tides came in and the tides went out.
New flesh was born and old flesh went back to the earth.
And the One saw new stories grow in the Theater of the Many. Some of these stories led closer to Home. These were the ones in which fear was conquered by love. Some of these stories led down blind alleys. These were the ones in which love was hidden by fear.
The plays were long and the distractions many. One by one Most souls forgot that they were on a journey at all.
They fell asleep to the First Stories That the One had left as eternal roadmaps and guides So that each soul could find its way Back Home.
Believing that they were alone and separate These lost souls wandered in a strange land Dominated by the illusion that death was real and That love was as transitory as a shadow.
Some sought solace in money, others in power. Some found it in food or drugs or alcohol or anger or Television or possessions, Gossip or judgment or a jealous god Who whispered lies. You are special, you are saved, There is only one way Home and this is it.
In its love and mercy for the lost parts of itself The One sent alarm bells out into the Universe To wake its sparks from their dreams of fear And to guide them back into paths of love and longing For reunion with the Great Cosmic Beloved.
These wake-up calls of pain roused the souls from their sleep of forgetfulness. And their cries for help were heard by their Brothers and sisters throughout the Universe. Seen and unseen helpers came Whenever they were drawn by the intent, The powerful pull of will Of any soul who appealed to the Source With a true longing for reunion, forgiveness and love. And they helped those souls to become free From the bondage of limiting beliefs and Past unloving or ignorant actions
So that they could find a Safe passage Home.
They will give you safe passage, too, If you ask with faith, Even the size of a mustard seed, And if you are patient and willing to listen To the directions of the Universe, Even if they are Not what you wanted to hear.
"Thy will, not mine, be done." This is the understanding That will bring you Home.
Another one of my favorite poems Please Call Me By My True Names
Quote:
Don’t say that I will depart tomorrow— even today I am still arriving.
Look deeply: every second I am arriving to be a bud on a Spring branch, to be a tiny bird, with still-fragile wings, learning to sing in my new nest, to be a caterpillar in the heart of a flower, to be a jewel hiding itself in a stone.
I still arrive, in order to laugh and to cry, to fear and to hope. The rhythm of my heart is the birth and death of all that is alive.
I am a mayfly metamorphosing on the surface of the river. And I am the bird that swoops down to swallow the mayfly.
I am a frog swimming happily in the clear water of a pond. And I am the grass-snake that silently feeds itself on the frog.
I am the child in Uganda, all skin and bones, my legs as thin as bamboo sticks. And I am the arms merchant, selling deadly weapons to Uganda.
I am the twelve-year-old girl, refugee on a small boat, who throws herself into the ocean after being raped by a sea pirate.
And I am also the pirate, my heart not yet capable of seeing and loving.
I am a member of the politburo, with plenty of power in my hands. And I am the man who has to pay his “debt of blood” to my people dying slowly in a forced-labor camp.
My joy is like Spring, so warm it makes flowers bloom all over the Earth. My pain is like a river of tears, so vast it fills the four oceans.
Please call me by my true names, so I can hear all my cries and laughter at once, so I can see that my joy and pain are one.
Please call me by my true names, so I can wake up and the door of my heart could be left open, the door of compassion.
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Beluga
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28382652 - 07/02/23 01:34 PM (6 months, 23 days ago) |
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Because you are here to have an experience in a physical world. Limitation is an essential part of that goal. I’ll give you some examples. Say you are God, alone in the void, and want to experience innocent love. You will have to differentiate into a limited avatar of young, inexperienced, hormonal youth, with no knowledge of biological sexual dynamics, sexual selection, ect. To feel that experience fully, the longing, the magic, the ecstasy, the mysticism, and everything else that makes innocent young love what it is, you have to restrict your intellect to a certain level of ignorance. Same thing if you want to experience what it is like to be a fish migrating through the sea, or a lion on the hunt. To experience what that really means, your intellect, knowledge, and ability to think must be restricted to that of the lion or fish you want to experience. After you die, you will expand back into God, and will be able to have all your questions answered, and all mysticism will be available to you, but it wont seem so mystical or magical anymore. It will just be seen as what it is-the eternal mind that you are. You will find that gets boring though, and you will need to create, differentiate, and experience again. Like a character in a book, video game, or movie, you will have to have limitations to make the story work. The mystical is a joy to experience or long for here. It adds depth, wonder, joy, hope, and many other valuable things to our experience. If we could experience it and understand it at will, it would cease to be mystical, and would soon become boring. That’s why we cant. Because we chose to be limited in that way so that we could have this avatar and this experience.
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Xorgo
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: Beluga] 1
#28392359 - 07/11/23 11:31 AM (6 months, 14 days ago) |
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I think reality is fluid. It's always changing, depending who's looking at it
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connectedcosmos
Neti Neti



Registered: 02/07/15
Posts: 7,426
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: Xorgo]
#28392779 - 07/11/23 06:12 PM (6 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Xorgo said: I think reality is fluid. It's always changing, depending who's looking at it
I've certainly noticed that everybodies perception is filtered and influenced through all the experiences that they've ever had collectively up to the point of perceiving in the moment
Very fluidy - think rorschach test
--------------------
 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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solarshroomster
Wonderer



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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: connectedcosmos]
#28393213 - 07/12/23 07:32 AM (6 months, 14 days ago) |
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All of these are good replies. I think I'm just Doubting Thomas.
In fact, connectedcosmos' note says it all:
54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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connectedcosmos
Neti Neti



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Posts: 7,426
Loc: The Pathless Path
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28393505 - 07/12/23 12:44 PM (6 months, 13 days ago) |
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I can try to explain the moon to you in many different ways yet you still will not know what it actually looks like until you see it yourself , in a way I see this at my job while training people to run a machine, you could explain it for 8 hours but they are not going to learn until they do it themselves , muscle memory etc,
And that's kinda knowledge , I think of Gnosis or Vidya which is knowing and if one can know intuitively based off philosophy, look around does anything come from nothing? So simply put if ones discernment is true you can find the Source, God , Dao, Brahman Whatever name you want to give it
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 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
Edited by connectedcosmos (07/12/23 12:53 PM)
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,666
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28393528 - 07/12/23 01:18 PM (6 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
solarshroomster said: I think I'm just Doubting Thomas
There is a mutual rapport, built between both sides.
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solarshroomster
Wonderer



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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: connectedcosmos]
#28393723 - 07/12/23 05:24 PM (6 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
connectedcosmos said: I can try to explain the moon to you in many different ways yet you still will not know what it actually looks like until you see it yourself:
Excellent example. I think that's precisely what's going on with doubters of the mystical dimension. You've either seen, or you haven't. It's understandable that if you haven't seen the moon, how are you expected to report back that there even is the moon? And, it's stranger still, for even if you have seen the moon, if there's nothing tangible to relate your experience back to (as is the case in mystical experience), you won't be able to even "describe" it.
You're blowing my mind!!!! Am I the only one who finds this incredible?!!!!
You're talking about the ineffable!!!!! Just a year ago, I thought this stuff was BS.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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connectedcosmos
Neti Neti



Registered: 02/07/15
Posts: 7,426
Loc: The Pathless Path
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28393747 - 07/12/23 05:40 PM (6 months, 13 days ago) |
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That verse is from the vivekachudamani primarily attributed to Shankaracharya as the composer iirc , so I take no credit for it , I think it's a beautiful metaphor though meant a lot to me so I stuck it in the sig 
The sage can point you the way but in the end its your own discernment
--------------------
 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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Beluga
Stranger
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: CreonAntigone] 2
#28394797 - 07/13/23 09:31 PM (6 months, 12 days ago) |
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The knowledge is hidden for a reason. If a dog knew the secrets of the universe, he would not be a dog. He would not be able to enjoy the pure feelings of joy and pain that a dog experiences. Same for most people. The limitations they have, intellectual and otherwise, were mostly chosen by them/us/God prior to coming here in order to have that particular experience as a regular person. This is why Plato and Socrates and their peers ultimately concluded what all enlightened people have concluded throughout history. It is useless to cast pearls before swine. They will react violently at the attempt to have their small views altered, and will attack the messenger. This is because they really dont want that knowledge. It would mess up what they are here to experience.
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solarshroomster
Wonderer



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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: Beluga]
#28394824 - 07/13/23 09:48 PM (6 months, 12 days ago) |
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Thank you.. Beluga!!
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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solarshroomster
Wonderer



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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28394827 - 07/13/23 09:50 PM (6 months, 12 days ago) |
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Okay, now I'm understanding. I just didn't think the world worked like that before...
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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FishOilTheKid
Ascended



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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28395515 - 07/14/23 03:23 PM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
...and will attack the messenger.
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LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs




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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster] 5
#28395948 - 07/15/23 02:40 AM (6 months, 11 days ago) |
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Perhaps the the Nature of the Mystical World? Its Naturally hidden from view because most Humans are unable to preceive it. We feel air blowing across our face yet we cannot preceive the individual atoms that make up the air. It is beyond our abilities of perception.
If Humans were able to preceive the Mystical world with complete ease and at any time we wanted, would it still remain mystical?
I think at the Core, the Universe itself is mystical. Infinite space, trillions of stars and galaxys. Countless planets. Billions and billions of plants, animals, microbes, fungi and Humans. Where did all cone from? Its all very incomprehensible.
-------------------- "What you must understand is that your physical dimension affects everyone in the higher dimensions as well. All things are interconnected. All things are One. Therefore, if one dimension is broken or out of balance, then all other dimensions will experience repercussions." - Pleiadian Prophecy 2020 The New Golden Age by James Carwin PROJECT BLUE BOOK ANALYSIS! (312 pages!) | Psychedelics & UFOs | Ready to Contact UFOs? | The Source on Mushrooms | Trippy Gematrix | Dj TeknoLogical | Fentanyl Test Kits R.I.P. Big Worm || The Start of the Ascension Process was 2020. Welcome to the Next Great Era of Earth 🌎🌍🌏
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,793
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
#28396714 - 07/15/23 04:48 PM (6 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said: Perhaps the the Nature of the Mystical World? Its Naturally hidden from view because most Humans are unable to preceive it. We feel air blowing across our face yet we cannot preceive the individual atoms that make up the air. It is beyond our abilities of perception.
If Humans were able to preceive the Mystical world with complete ease and at any time we wanted, would it still remain mystical?
I think at the Core, the Universe itself is mystical. Infinite space, trillions of stars and galaxys. Countless planets. Billions and billions of plants, animals, microbes, fungi and Humans. Where did all cone from? Its all very incomprehensible.

My friend, its extremely discouraging to share tales from up there down here because down here spiritual ecstasy and mystical experiences get immerdiately stomped into dismissal bins of delusion, pschyosis and mania. people aree disgustingly antispiritual. its a form of social violence.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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solarshroomster
Wonderer



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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: Asante] 2
#28396779 - 07/15/23 06:06 PM (6 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Asante said: My friend, its extremely discouraging to share tales from up there down here because down here spiritual ecstasy and mystical experiences get immerdiately stomped into dismissal bins of delusion, pschyosis and mania. people aree disgustingly antispiritual. its a form of social violence.
I feel very similarly to you. The environment I was brought in did not enable me to take mysticism seriously. I thought it was, at best, a naive "feel good" security blanket stemming from death anxiety / insecurity and, at worst, abusive indoctrination. I would hazard a guess that a lot of people in the Philosophy forum are stuck in the same depressed point I was in. Never did I conceive of the possibility there was an ancient truth to it.
But I am somewhat empathetic towards those who a priori reject spirituality out of hand, before coming to truly know it. In their defense, it's often poorly displayed (and misunderstood) by the huckster, clueless spiritualists and war-prone fundamentalists. And then, when, we compare it to the power of what science has accomplished, how on Earth are we to take it seriously?!
So hidden is the mystical domain that I've come up with a (possible) theory that mysticism is intended to look ridiculous on purpose so people don't believe it. By putting on a "front", we obscure the deeper, allegorical meaning. This idea came to me from reading a work on the UFO phenomenon that I really recommend, Aliens and Angels by Keith Thompson. Like, with UFOs, there's clearly enough reports that indicate a real phenomenon is going on, but, yet, there's just enough of a situation that it's also hard to take it seriously. The phenomenon is littered with frauds and stories that end up busting up in the end. Just when you get the whiff of something under your nose, the phenomenon retreats away. Why?
I was writing once to a person who purported to have experienced a close encounter with an alien. Her story had all the hallmarks of everything checking out, but then there was one thing in the end that didn't make sense. It's not an important point what that was, but the point was: it didn't reconcile. But then, on the flipside, the data in the case was enough that it didn't make sense to fully reject it either.
I was also DMing with someone on these forums, and he had mentioned to me how he was "fully convinced" when under the psychedelic state of the reality of the "spiritual realms" or whatever you call them, but when he returns, he thinks they were just delusions. He supposedly has done this 100+ times. What is one to make out of that?
Such is the nature of hiding. When we're "there" in the other worlds everything "makes sense". When we return, we forget. Why? Why?
I don't mean to be full of it, but I hope my words get people to step back and think.
To me, this is the million dollar question behind mysticism. And, no, it's not just as simple as "HE WAS ON DRUGS!!!! SO EVERYTHING HE SAW WAS FALSE!!!!" "THIS world that we see in the sober state is ALL THERE IS!"
And I know it's not that simple, because we are on drugs all the time. The world we see in front of us is a mental construction, and the scientific method has already shown it to be a hallucination as we claim to "see it" in the sober state. For instance, objects appear solid, but really, 99% of it is empty space. Heck, when you get down to it, as I understand it, it's not even matter but abstract concepts that could only be represented by mathematical equations. Whatever the case, we live in hallucination, so it makes no sense to disregard other hallucinations.
Something MUCH more interesting is going on... and regardless of what the explanation is... I don't care if it's a delusion. I don't care if it's actual confirmation of the existence of the spiritual worlds (actually, I do care, but you get the point ), there's something very remarkable going on that is not at all explained, and I don't understand why people seem to not be making a bigger deal of it.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
Edited by solarshroomster (07/15/23 06:14 PM)
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solarshroomster
Wonderer



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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster] 1
#28396894 - 07/15/23 08:51 PM (6 months, 10 days ago) |
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Shorter answer Asante: I see you. I don't laugh away your religious experiences. I see you. I heare you.
On this forum, you're welcome to share your visions... thank you..
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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number47
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28412599 - 07/29/23 09:23 AM (5 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
solarshroomster said: I don't understand why the mystical world hides itself???!!!!!
Whenever I'm not on the drugs, I no longer "see". And, why, do I keep forgetting?
If it was common knowledge it wouldn't be very mystical now would it?
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solarshroomster
Wonderer



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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: number47]
#28412644 - 07/29/23 10:04 AM (5 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
number47 said:
Quote:
solarshroomster said: I don't understand why the mystical world hides itself???!!!!!
Whenever I'm not on the drugs, I no longer "see". And, why, do I keep forgetting?
If it was common knowledge it wouldn't be very mystical now would it?
I pretty much equate mystical with ineffable experiences that reveal things about the "real" nature of life & existence. I don't know, it's now pretty obvious to me that mind constructs the Self and world from mental representations, that we're all interconnected, and that therefore there is no true thing such as death. The ineffable transcends this concept since it can't be spoken about, but it can be appreciated in the here and now.
This seems to me like it's a pretty big deal, and I'm not sure why I wasn't taught it.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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syncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: number47]
#28412648 - 07/29/23 10:05 AM (5 months, 27 days ago) |
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I was listening to Seth speaking (from the other thread), "we will now leave this Esoteric class..." and at first, though I think mistaken, I thought he was implying that it is we mortal regulars that are esoteric, that the hidden is not the mystical, but the causes for it being hidden. (that doesn't make sense, but i think the point is made ) Not the only source for the line of thought, as for example, the saint that said we are the ones doing austerities keeping ourselves separate.
Edited by syncro (07/29/23 10:12 AM)
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro]
#28413017 - 07/29/23 03:40 PM (5 months, 27 days ago) |
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I believe that the mystical world is perceivable by people through the ordinary five senses, and explainable in plain English (provided that I write well-enough.)
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syncro
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: durian_2008] 1
#28413020 - 07/29/23 03:50 PM (5 months, 27 days ago) |
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That reminded me of this quote, though I thought it was more directly relating the senses.
Quote:
Śaṅkara maintains an Upaniṣadic view that minds are materially constituted by sattva, the subtlest aspect of each primary element. Sattva has a qualitative predominance of lucidity and transparency. It makes the mind akin to the reflective surface of a mirror capable of reflecting light, or like a transparent glass that allows light to pass through while illuminating variations on its surface. Unlike minds, mediums like rocks are inert because of their opacity. They lack enough sattva constitution to be reflective even though they are also fundamentally grounded in consciousness.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: syncro]
#28413369 - 07/29/23 11:14 PM (5 months, 27 days ago) |
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In other words, because you are not being a lens.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,666
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: durian_2008]
#28413370 - 07/29/23 11:17 PM (5 months, 27 days ago) |
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While I believe that there is truth in the archetypal and irreducibly-simple, and that you are saying something elemental, there is something to be said for executive function.
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solarshroomster
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: durian_2008]
#28413373 - 07/29/23 11:21 PM (5 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
durian_2008 said: While I believe that there is truth in in the archetypal and irreducibly-simple, and that you are saying something elemental, there is something to be said for executive function.
I get that there is a point for executive function, but there's also a point in appreciating the archetypal divine, the allegory of life, that I previously thought was fake and lied into believing was fake.
It's like there's two worlds, but I was being totally denied the archetypal realm in their attempt to snatch me away from learning about our interconnectedness.
We probably evolved towards executive function (that-worldly) as the ego attempted to understand a literal world and miss the allegorical, archetypal meaning (other-worldly). I'm very disappointed in how I was that misled.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
Edited by solarshroomster (07/29/23 11:22 PM)
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster] 1
#28413382 - 07/29/23 11:35 PM (5 months, 27 days ago) |
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There used to be a moral panic about brownies or household spirits, known to have productive relationships with successful families.
Some ministers from about the the time between paganism and the state church supposed that they were angelic servitors, meant to spare mankind of physical burdens -- sometimes, on the scale of factory production and even monolithic buildings.
Others would persecute those people for being witches -- usually, people who were supposed to stay poor.
Depending on your worldview, or depending on your temperament, such entities have a servile quality or might be dangerous. If there is no reason for you to have status, it might upend the social order, as would unexplained riches or a form of free energy. You might accuse your rival of doing it wrong.
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number47
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28413647 - 07/30/23 07:55 AM (5 months, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
solarshroomster said:
Quote:
number47 said:
Quote:
solarshroomster said: I don't understand why the mystical world hides itself???!!!!!
Whenever I'm not on the drugs, I no longer "see". And, why, do I keep forgetting?
If it was common knowledge it wouldn't be very mystical now would it?
I pretty much equate mystical with ineffable experiences that reveal things about the "real" nature of life & existence. I don't know, it's now pretty obvious to me that mind constructs the Self and world from mental representations, that we're all interconnected, and that therefore there is no true thing such as death. The ineffable transcends this concept since it can't be spoken about, but it can be appreciated in the here and now.
This seems to me like it's a pretty big deal, and I'm not sure why I wasn't taught it.
I agree with all that. I'm sort of glad I wasn't taught it. Now that I have ventured off and found it..it's extremely gratifying and appreciated. If I was taught it, I don't think I would have appreciated it as much. Ya feels me?
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solarshroomster
Wonderer



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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: number47]
#28413701 - 07/30/23 08:37 AM (5 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
number47 said:
Quote:
solarshroomster said:
Quote:
number47 said:
Quote:
solarshroomster said: I don't understand why the mystical world hides itself???!!!!!
Whenever I'm not on the drugs, I no longer "see". And, why, do I keep forgetting?
If it was common knowledge it wouldn't be very mystical now would it?
I pretty much equate mystical with ineffable experiences that reveal things about the "real" nature of life & existence. I don't know, it's now pretty obvious to me that mind constructs the Self and world from mental representations, that we're all interconnected, and that therefore there is no true thing such as death. The ineffable transcends this concept since it can't be spoken about, but it can be appreciated in the here and now.
This seems to me like it's a pretty big deal, and I'm not sure why I wasn't taught it.
I agree with all that. I'm sort of glad I wasn't taught it. Now that I have ventured off and found it..it's extremely gratifying and appreciated. If I was taught it, I don't think I would have appreciated it as much. Ya feels me?
Yes, I feel you. I do agree, if I wasn't taught it, it would be very different than it is now. Though, I will say, it causes me a distressing amount of cognitive dissonance, because it so doesn't fit into my worldview.
But, yeah, like I can tell that "you've seen" the higher planes. And I think that is a pretty big deal. I don't get why people aren't making a bigger deal out of it. I almost feel like that is more of a curiosity than the existence of the mystical domain itself.
Can you help me out here? I smoked weed last night. For 7.5 hours I was fully convinced I discovered a riddle behind the universe. Not, thinking that I did, mind you, but fully and absolutely of the experience that I discovered something absolutely incredible about our existence. I came up with the most genius ideas, my dreams came alive, memories that were previously obscured were unearthed. I became "early man", the first ape to light the ceremonial marijuana bud and usher himself into another dimension. I saw myself through that ape. I was the archetypal first man to return the "universal knowledge" back to that-worldly plane. Patterns reassembled themselves to create impossible meaning, too uncanny to just dismiss as a delusion, a man gone mad. It was impossible to describe. I saw space & time as just a construction of the mind. My room "disappeared", and the world spoke to me. I'm not sure how more ineffable it could have gone...
Is this a normal reaction from weed? Is everyone experiencing something similar to that?
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
Edited by solarshroomster (07/30/23 08:58 AM)
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster] 1
#28414165 - 07/30/23 03:48 PM (5 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
solarshroomster said: Patterns reassembled themselves to create impossible meaning, too uncanny to just dismiss as a delusion, a man gone mad. It was impossible to describe.
It's possible to describe it as a pareidolea or hypnocampic state. Some people believe this is how spirits start to manifest, particularly elementals from nature.
Quote:
solarshroomster said: I saw space & time as just a construction of the mind. My room "disappeared", and the world spoke to me. I'm not sure how more ineffable it could have gone...
Thought stopping, fixed gaze, and auditory disorientation are all possible steps to inducing trance.
Some people look into a crystal ball on black velvet, into a puddle of squid ink, into a hat, or I have even heard of a daisy being used to block out all external stimuli. They say, where there is a hollow part in the buttress roots of a tree, or in a certain well, that is where the fairies live. They hold this-and-that hollow thing up to their ear, or go into a hollow kind of place with accoustics that echo.
Quote:
solarshroomster said: Is this a normal reaction from weed? Is everyone experiencing something similar to that?
It's arguably schizotypal and is a reported reaction from weed -- probably mild overdose, or if you are already psycholigically prone to dissociation.
aimho
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solarshroomster
Wonderer



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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: durian_2008]
#28414259 - 07/30/23 05:22 PM (5 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
durian_2008 said:
Quote:
solarshroomster said: Patterns reassembled themselves to create impossible meaning, too uncanny to just dismiss as a delusion, a man gone mad. It was impossible to describe.
It's possible to describe it as a pareidolea or hypnocampic state. Some people believe this is how spirits start to manifest, particularly elementals from nature.
Quote:
solarshroomster said: I saw space & time as just a construction of the mind. My room "disappeared", and the world spoke to me. I'm not sure how more ineffable it could have gone...
Thought stopping, fixed gaze, and auditory disorientation are all possible steps to inducing trance.
Some people look into a crystal ball on black velvet, into a puddle of squid ink, into a hat, or I have even heard of a daisy being used to block out all external stimuli. They say, where there is a hollow part in the buttress roots of a tree, or in a certain well, that is where the fairies live. They hold this-and-that hollow thing up to their ear, or go into a hollow kind of place with accoustics that echo.
Quote:
solarshroomster said: Is this a normal reaction from weed? Is everyone experiencing something similar to that?
It's arguably schizotypal and is a reported reaction from weed -- probably mild overdose, or if you are already psycholigically prone to dissociation.
aimho
Well done! Are you a psychiatrist by chance or have friends in the field? You seem very well attuned to certain psychological facts.
I like what you mentioned about elementals and "pareidolia". As one hypothesis, I think pareidolia could be an example of how we are pattern-recognizing beings constructing the world from the patterns we conceptualize. It's like there's a background of empty noise, but we create meaning from it when we construct the world and the Self-concept. Take any given random stream of data, and we use salience to identify patterns.
But what if the universe itself was (as it is) full of patterns? And all were symbols like in the air, as it were, streaming life into creation.
This gets into the concept of derealization. It's almost like your life / my life is a simulation from a computer game that streams Reality, and we make patterns out of it to create worlds.
What for instance are we to make out of this mystical experience reported here?: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6450226
Quote:
aside from sacred plants,
i remember having a mystical experience at Charles de Gaulle International Airport during my stay in Europe two summers ago.
some sort of synergy of destiny and a particular trance song playing on my mp3-player seems to have inevitably resulted this. 
it was nice weather outside too.
the terminal looked majestic with these bright pillars of sunlight radiating in through the glass windows around me.
it was a spectacular unity of elements, that's all i will really add with words. 
luckily tonight i found the track which i have since long been searching for. 
i only listened to it once or twice since that event, so when i hear it now, i feel as if the melody and the sound attract my collective memories from that day and integrate them back into some sort of re-livable sample of the "mystical feeling" i experienced then.
cannabis helps me reflect back with greater vivid detail, the music, the vibes.. 
good times. 

Existence is all very magical. Wow.
-------------------- Chopin in Eternal Sonata: "I believe that I am somehow being tested. That I am on this journey to come to some realization. And in order to do so, I think I’m supposed to live my life to the fullest, even if it is in this muddled world of dream and reality."
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,666
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: solarshroomster]
#28414273 - 07/30/23 05:32 PM (5 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
solarshroomster said: You seem very well attuned to certain psychological facts.
Psych tests say to get help, but in consensus reality I am considered an achiever and fun boss.
More, later.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant



Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 16,666
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: Why does the mystical world hide itself? [Re: durian_2008]
#28414414 - 07/30/23 07:31 PM (5 months, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
trance song playing on my mp3-player... it was nice weather outside too.
The person is disengaged, before receiving enlightenment.
Building up this ball of energy and stress and hope and positive visualization will eventually cause the person to burn out from bearing the burden of it.
The other half of the equation is to release it into the universe.
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